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RickV
TGC Development Director
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2011 23:05
Hi,

We want AppGameKit to be the tool you want. So to avoid us designing how we think it should be, we have created this short survey which covers some key areas on how the scripting system will work.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/7GDBGZW

Thanks for your participation.

Rick

Financial Director
TGC Team
dark coder
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 01:33
What does '6. The AppGameKit Tier 1 is presently a BASIC script, would you prefer the language to adopt a more C++ style?' mean?

There are a billion differences between DBPro and C++, I don't think anyone's been pushing any syntax or features of that are special to C++.

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 11:31
I thought the question on case sensitivity was somewhat ambiguous. With case sensitivity presumably each of LoadImage, loadimage and loadImage would be recognised - but as different things.

So it's possible I gave the wrong answer.
RickV
TGC Development Director
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 12:41
Case sensitivity is about the compiler taking any of those loadimage commands and recognising them as the one command. So;

LoadImage = LoadImage
LoadImage = loadimage
LoadImage = loadImage
LoadImage = LOadImaGE
etc

If it was case sensitive only LoadImage would be valid.

This requirement is split almost 50/50 at present in the survey. So it would make sense to make it case in-sensitive and maybe hook in a tick box for case sensitivity later on.

Rick

Financial Director
TGC Team
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 24th Jan 2011 13:18
Thanks. I ticked the right box then.

Quote: "This requirement is split almost 50/50 at present in the survey. So it would make sense to make it case in-sensitive and maybe hook in a tick box for case sensitivity later on."


Yes, keeping everyone happy is difficult at times so that's probably the best you can do.
Jeff Miller
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Posted: 28th Jan 2011 21:23
Rick, are you surveying outside the current TGC community as well as within? I envision AppGameKit as having a potential to bring in new customers, rather than just serve the existing loyal core. The question is especially important with respect to the general issue of exactly how "basic" tier 1 should be. On another thread there are suggestions which could be interpreted as asking for something closer to C, but they are from the more experienced long-time users of DBP who are going to buy anyway. My feeling is that the potential customers who are not in the TGC fold as yet would prefer to stick their toe in the water with something as close to Basic as possible, but I think some semblance of actual market research is the best way to determine that.

I recall you did a survey of existing forum members some years back to get a feel for the demographics, and also analyzed geographic sales. You didn't publish the results, except to mention that the US was the largest market and a great preponderance of forum members were male. You indicated that age was scattered all over. (I know of at least 3 active forum members in their early 60's, and there are obviously forum members working on their 12 year molars.)

Any chance of publishing the results now? I presume that you didn't want to publish the results back then because you would be publishing them to the major competitor.
Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 10:02
We are interested in getting feedback from anyone who might consider AppGameKit in their development process.

I don't have the full results of the survey right now but so far it's looking like the majority would like to see some alterations. I expect the language is going to be very close to DB Pro but with some minor changes e.g. use of brackets. I don't see it being a complete overhaul.
DMXtra
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 10:13
o Lack of spaces in commands

o case insensitive

o Use Of brackets for all commands (except arrays which use square brackets)

o entity system instead of object numbers
(ie. enemy = loadimage("enemy1.png")
enemy_pos = position(enemy,x,y,z)

Did I miss anything?

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
Mike
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 10:57
Ive just taken the survey, very excited about this. Ive been away from the DB scene for a while due to primarily working in web development but Im not beginning to get involved in mobile apps and thus this project is very interesting and will bring me back to the DB scene.

Now I wonder how many 'old' members are still here, back from the RGT/LLRGT days!
Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 11:11
Hi Rick, Mike and the rest of you!

I haven't touched DBP in over 2 years now but I'm getting really excited about developing for mobile devices. Just ordered an iPod Touch 4G yesterday and getting an Android phone later this year. Really excited about the possibilities of using tablets for board games, that might turn out to be huge.

Anyway, I think a few questions in the survey needs some clarification:

Q2: I assume voting yes here means I'm for removing the space, but it could be misunderstood. I prefer without spaces just to make things cleaner, and easier for people coming from other languages.

Q3: DBP is case insensitive, maybe you should include that in the description. Oh, do I hate case sensitive languages, that's just annoying.

Q6: What exactly are we talking about here? I hate header files but I'm not against declaring variables. Classes could be nice. I don't mind {} but I don't like ;. I like !, !=, ++ and -- but find == to be easy to forget. And I'm sure there are things.

I have a lot of free time this month and I would just love to get my hands on some documentation. Or even better a beta, but I guess that's too early. I'm eager to start coding right now but in the mean time I'm gonna start on the graphics for 2 simple games I have planned.

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BillR
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 12:11
I'd say start coding then....use DBPro and learn Box2D physics, then it will be easy to convert to AppGameKit when it comes out.
World Class Multimedia
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 15:17
Is this going to be dark basic for devices or c++?

Mike

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Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 19:57


It's not going to be the exact same syntax so I would have to go through all my code and that's not something I like doing. I also do not have DBP installed on this computer and I don't own Box2D. Having some artwork ready before I start will make programming smoother anyway.

[center]
Mike
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 20:35
Wow long time since I last spoke to you mate, nice to see your still going and it appears your in the same boat as me, all the money is now in Apps, being able to develop these quickly and easily in a language I know, love and have supported for over a decade, it all seems very promising.
Blizk
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2011 02:21
pirate mode would be cool

Binan Ath!
Kamakazi
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2011 21:24
I think this is a cool project. I just recently got an iPad and would enjoy developing game apps for it. Can't wait to try the finished product!
MasterBowyer
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 03:49
Is AppGameKit going to be GPL? I'm between projects right now, so if a Linux dev environment is in the plans, I might want to get in.
kdf
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 19:35 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2011 19:44
Sorry guys. Forgot to check the FAQs in the other sticky. I think it answered most of my questions.
Sph!nx
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 13:21
Took the survey. Can't wait to see some more of ADK. Good luck guys!

Regards Sph!nx
http://www.mental-image.net
Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 18:16
Am I the only one sceptical about the idea of taking on-board the opinions of random people taking a survey who probably don't know much about language design, and how such changes could benefit the language?
Zubby1970
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 02:56 Edited at: 6th Feb 2011 03:03
i think most good programmers will know more than they think they know about language design. as a full time programmer myself i know which languages i like and which i dont.

DBpro is an awsome language to use for development, so i think if they keep along those lines AppGameKit should be just as powerful and easy to use.

keep up the good work guys.

There can only be one
Benjamin
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 03:14
Quote: "i think most good programmers will know more than they think they know about language design. as a full time programmer myself i know which languages i like and which i dont."


Quote: "DBpro is an awsome language to use for development"


No offence but any good programmer will know that the language has many flaws that can be corrected in AGK.

I'm just thinking most people will vote for what they know, since it's easiest for them. That and they think DBP is a great language.
bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 11:12
I would like to be the first to say that I verifiably have no idea what I'm talking about.

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Sph!nx
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 11:52
Quote: "Am I the only one sceptical about the idea of taking on-board the opinions of random people taking a survey who probably don't know much about language design, and how such changes could benefit the language?"

Quote: "I'm just thinking most people will vote for what they know, since it's easiest for them. That and they think DBP is a great language. "


Isn't that the whole point?

Quote: "We want AppGameKit to be the tool you want."


Regards Sph!nx
http://www.mental-image.net
DVader
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 15:51
Well, all I can say to Benjamin's comment is quite simple. If you love C++ so much then why even use DB? The whole point of this was to have a DB style language for mobile apps, that is quick for people who know DB to take up and get running. As far as I can see the fastest way to achieve this is to keep it pretty much the same. If things are going to be changed radically then people who know DB will not be able to jump in as easily and may well be put off.

I see the tier 1 package really being for DB users who want an easy in to programming for multiple devices. They will have little or no interest in learning C++ syntax, and will want it to be as similar to DB as possible.

People who are pushing for language changes might want to consider a higher tier and just using c++ anyway. They may well already know it (else why push for changes), and will probably want to go that route so they can publish themselves(the tier one option looks to me like it will use an emulator/virtual machine type app to run any game wrote in app game kit. You must publish through TGC using this.)

I do think a lot of peeps are forgetting the tiers, and changing the basic one to mimic C++ style, yet have none of the speed advantages, to me seems a waste of time.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
Benjamin
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 16:39
@DVader: I don't see why you mention C++ in every paragraph, what does it have to do with altering the syntax of AppGameKit slightly? Some of the suggested changes are common in many languages, and they benefit the language in either conciseness or functionality, as well as possibly making compilation easier or quicker. I see nothing wrong in using syntax that shares similarity with other popular programming languages, it's not going to really add any difficulty to using the language. If anything it's going to be easier to learn since you won't be confused by ambiguous statements.

Quote: "Isn't that the whole point?"


Of course, they want their current and potential customers to be interested, but if the language is improved (ie. changed) it'll attract more business in the long run. Some of the things suggested in that survey may be beneficial to overall users, and I'm just worried that they are going to cater it to DBP users that basically want the exact same syntax and functionality that they are used to, regardless of the long-lasting impact it might have.
Sph!nx
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Posted: 7th Feb 2011 12:23 Edited at: 7th Feb 2011 12:25
Well, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the developers are trying to create a code syntax similar to DB Pro but advance or upgrade that.

The survey is just for that, to see how many people are using/wanting the DB syntax and what needs to be improved on that.

Edit:
I think it's great that the developers are involving us like this!

Regards Sph!nx
http://www.mental-image.net
DVader
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Posted: 7th Feb 2011 18:07 Edited at: 7th Feb 2011 18:14
I mention C++ because that has the sort of syntax you mention. Obviously other languages use similar systems and I hate each one of them lol. I also have been programming on and off in DB since it was first released, the original, not pro. Because of this I know it pretty well, and having a new tool that works the same way would be a great help, rather than having to relearn commands.

I don't have any real issues with the way DB Pro works at the moment, apart from a bit more speed of course. So I am fairly happy to keep agk as close as possible to it. As to people voting for what they know to make it easier, what's wrong with that? As far as I am concerned anything that makes it easier to finish a project is welcome. It is also not possible to be easier to learn, than already knowing the language in the first place. Of course for new people perhaps that could be true, perhaps not. I personally do not find any of the DB syntax to be confusing whatsoever.

If for instance, TGC had said they were developing a similar system to this but completely c++ based rather than with support for DB based code I would not have even the slightest interest. Even as it is, the idea of an app running in some sort of emulator, when using the db based code, is off putting anyway. I may be wrong about that but as they have not elaborated on it too much I can only guess that is how it works.

My point is that a lot of users here will prefer a DB compatible version, especially if they plan on using existing projects that they may have worked on for some time. I have no projects to use, as mine are all 3D, but some people probably have.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I don't think TGC are going to get many pro devs using the tier 1 version of agk, possibly the higher ones, but for those, the db interface sounds immaterial.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
Clonkex
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Posted: 14th Feb 2011 01:48
Can't wait for this to be released! Should be as much like DBPro as possible, including how the brackets, spacing, and in-sensitivity. It should definitely NOT be case sensitive!

Can't wait!

Clonkex

Making games is easy.....finishing them is a different matter.

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HowDo
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Posted: 14th Feb 2011 17:49 Edited at: 14th Feb 2011 17:51
Will have the ablity to add user plugin's, sorry if this was in the FAQs .

Edit
You guess it miss that one when I read it the first time,

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 25th Feb 2011 20:13 Edited at: 25th Feb 2011 20:15
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the feedback and comments, it's a great indicator as to what the community is looking for to create cross-platform apps Just to keep up the interest, here is some code that is compiling and running now in AppGameKit Tier 1:



As you can see, it's still very close to DBC/DBP but brings some of the better features from other languages such as spaceless commands, brackets on non-expression commands and commands that auto-assign index numbers such as img=LoadImage("file",flag). Still a few tweaks to make such as square brackets for the arrays, but I've been coding DBP for so long I'm going to miss by smooth brackets for array handling

We've also had time to do lots of performance tests across multiple devices and we're pleased to report the interpreter system is hideously fast, and more than capable of running your apps. To put the engine in context, the Dark Basic Classic product was an interpreter engine and some amazing games have been created with that language.

Watch out for the newsletter for more AppGameKit news! Again thanks for the feedback, it's a great help.

I drink tea, and in my spare time I write software.
Hodgey
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Posted: 25th Feb 2011 22:09
Looks great!!! And for the great debate that is going on in the other thread you've been able to satisfy both views with the LoadImage command.

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Blobby 101
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Posted: 26th Feb 2011 11:56
That's cool, I like the way you can use reference numbers OR handles for loading media, that's a nice way of keeping everyone happy

Benjamin
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Posted: 1st Mar 2011 11:09
I'm sorry, but that code looks hideous.

For starters, you're supporting those archaic hash and dollar symbols for variable types which look messy and can lead to confusion if (like DBP) you allow them to be typed as something else. If not, you (as the compiler writers) have to write pointless additional logic to make sure you can only declare variables ending with # as floats, and those ending with $ as strings. I'd say do away with these symbols completely as they contribute little to the language other than making more complex syntax.

Command stacking is also hard to read, and potentially ambiguous. Remove that ability, and you'll again have simpler syntax and easier to read code, without losing anything from the language. Additionally, parsing will be easier.

All variables in that code are lowercase, which apart from making the code look a mess make me wonder if you're not actually using case-sensitivity, which without option-explicit is undoubtedly going to cause problems for many users. Also, it's inconsistent with your use of camel case for function names.

On a note unrelated to the language itself, the spacing and indentation makes that code yet harder to read. You've put spaces around brackets yet you don't put them in relevant places in equations and assignments, which need clarifying more than anything else.

I'm curious, apart from functions requiring brackets will there be any other differences from DBP's outdated syntax?



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DMXtra
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Posted: 1st Mar 2011 12:13
Yes, I agree the # and $ are not really needed and are out of date, if you want to know what you defined them as you can always look at the variable init part of your code. It does make the code look very messy.

The other things like formatting the IDE should do for you, so that isn't a big deal.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
Ched80
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Posted: 1st Mar 2011 13:27
Personally - i prefer the # and $ syntax - if you have a lot of code you wouldn't need to search to find what type the variable was declared as - it makes debugging a lot easier.

Thought overall the sample was helpful and didn't put me off.

[url="http://raptr.com/No_Turn_Right?src=em_forum"][/url]
Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
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Posted: 1st Mar 2011 14:08
Quote: "Yes, I agree the # and $ are not really needed and are out of date"


They are also quite annoying to type, at least on a Swedish keyboard. # requires Shift and $ requires Alt Gr.

I guess they are in there for those that doesn't want to declare their variables. However, just using . for floats and "" for strings should be enough IMHO.

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 1st Mar 2011 17:49
Something to bear in mind is this - the use of # and $ is optional. You can declare variables like this:

myValue as float
myString as string

As far as spacing, indentation, naming etc. that is all down to personal preference and is simply the way Lee has written it for this example, others can do it their own way.
DMXtra
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2011 02:19
Well, the fact that they are optional, works for me.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 21st Mar 2011 14:39 Edited at: 21st Mar 2011 14:45
I have a feeling that a lot of newcomers will want to jump on board this thing.
A thorough manual will guarantee smooth sailing for everyone.

Quote: "Just to keep up the interest, here is some code that is compiling and running now in AppGameKit Tier 1:"

Looks like Tetris or something.

Phaelax
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Posted: 4th Apr 2011 10:06
Just took the survey. My opinion about the case-sensitivity is that I don't really care. Let the editor be case-insensitive and then just auto-capitalize everything when it's sent to the compiler if it must be case-sensitive (but leave the code in the editor untouched!).

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Caps On!
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 17:30
I've been away for a while, college kind of does that, but I'm glad to be back. I took the survey, probably too late to affect anything by now though. I'm excited about the AppGameKit, and look forward to its release! Looks like it's going to be a good summer!

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Libervurto
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Posted: 14th May 2011 00:42
Here's my opinion on the few things I know about :

* Please change array brackets to square ones! I've lost count of the number of times I've confused arrays with function calls.

* Case-Insensitivity and no requirements for "#" or "$" please; let people write in the format they are comfortable with.

* Please have different symbols for assignment and equality comparison, don't use "=" for both, it is confusing.

* I don't see the need for brackets after commands that don't require parameters, even IF they return a value such as get time$(). The way I think of brackets is not actually part of the function name but an attachment to the name for the parameters used i.e. WeAreCallingThisFunction(psst, but, with, these, parameters, this, time).

* Spaces within commands can be confusing so I'm glad people want rid of them, but I like languages that use a "." to separate words, like Delphi, so you could type "load." and a hint box would come up with all the things you could load. I found that very useful when learning Delphi. Maybe you don't explicitly need a "." to do this but that's just an example.

Err, I can't think of anything else. Just please try to keep the ethos of DB, make it simple to use and learn, and maybe a bit more intuitive; there are a few inconsistencies within DB e.g. "create bitmap", "make object" would have been easier to remember had they used the same word.

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JackDawson
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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 06:11
I am hoping the Syntax will be the same as DBP. I also like the idea of the $ usage as an option. The Hash sign I'm not so worried about.

The other thing I like is being able to quickly distinguish functions from regular items on my screen. In other-words, make the FUNCTIONS in caps. It makes it a lot easier and faster, AND I can focus more on the project and not on syntax. I'm getting old and my eye site is getting up there in years, so CAPPed functions does make it easier on my eyes.

These are my Zero point zero zero zero zero two cents..

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