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Geek Culture / Your thoughts: DRM, consoles vs PC, etc

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wattywatts
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Posted: 17th Oct 2014 07:28
Some of you may (or may not) recall that I refuse to use Steam; after my account was hacked and they refused to transfer my games to a new account. I've since been using GOG.com - an amazing resource for DRM free games. However I've recently stopped playing on and sold my current/last gen consoles and now play exclusively on the PC.

I do miss some of my favorite games however, and have been purchasing them when funds allow. Today, I had an urge to play Mass Effect 3. Unfortunately, I discovered just before buying a boxed copy on ebay that all versions require a mandatory origin install. It's not such a big deal to a lot of people, I know. But why would I want DRM running in the background, using even 1% of my system resources? Even more so for people who also use steam.



My current thoughts are leaning towards consoles being much better situated for playing games, as the devices themselves are a form of DRM and thus no additional protection is utilized.

I remember when Assassins Creed 2 hit the PC, requiring a constant internet connection despite the fact that it was a single player game. Ubi's servers went down from time to time, and nobody could play. Not being legally able to find a workaround for something like that seems about as ridiculous, but far less amusing, as the Icelandic law that forces people wanting to erect new buildings to first have the land surveyed for trolls and elves.

So anyway, in addition to my rant I kind of want to share a line that's been resonating with me (this is a game development site after all). Game developers should never give hackers a chance to create a superior product. CD Projekt Red subscribes to this ideology, releasing games through their GOG distribution service, and as I last heard their the Witcher series was pirated far less than games containing DRM.
Airslide
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Posted: 17th Oct 2014 08:38
I myself prefer consoles largely because they are dedicated for gaming, and I can leave my computer out of the mess you describe for the most part. Plus, I just finished playing The Last of Us, which on its own is reason enough to justify having a PlayStation 3

It's kind of funny, I did the reverse of what you did – I once used a PC for the majority of my gaming, and later decided to stick to consoles for most of it. I even bought the Mass Effect trilogy again to play on my 360!
Van B
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Posted: 17th Oct 2014 10:17
I gave up on XBox, got tired of the whole paying to play online games while my PC sits gathering dust. As soon as I got BF3 running nicely on my PC the consoles were dead to me. Well, in saying that I still play the PS3, as that's different, that's got a steering wheel and stuff for play GT, it's in the cupboard under my stairs and is also good for playing survival horror games

Really though, I'm not sold on the XBone or the PS4, I can't see them as capable machines that can replace PC gaming while they use DX9, and PC hardware is generation ahead already.

I am a PC gamers, and I put Steam, Origin, and UPlay on my PC and it didn't explode. In fact, I find the stuff that Razer enforce on users to be far more annoying than all these services put together. Some of those Razer apps are just thrown together, there's no elegance, it's like the main programmer doesn't like their job.

I am the one who knocks...
Quik
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Posted: 17th Oct 2014 13:16
PC Always, however that is simply and only because I prefer using a mouse to play games, to the point that any game requiring me to use a controller to aim I will shut down immediatly.
That said; I'venever noticed any problems playing games on my PS3 - and while some companies (Ubisoft.. EA) really has obtrusive and unnecessary "platforms for their own games", I mostly havent noticed any major problems with PC gaming either the last few years.
That said, the fact that EVERY game nowadays "Requres" steam to play is rather scary, as we're starting to talk a platform monopoly, which can't be good.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Airslide
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Posted: 18th Oct 2014 02:40
Quote: "Really though, I'm not sold on the XBone or the PS4, I can't see them as capable machines that can replace PC gaming while they use DX9, and PC hardware is generation ahead already."


Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure the PS4 uses OpenGL or something else (DirectX is a Microsoft product after all) and I think that the Xbox One is getting support for DirectX 12... so as far as APIs go, I don't see how either of them would be behind right now.

I understand why a lot of people prefer PC. I myself just prefer the cinema-like experience, and it's easier for me to include a console in my home entertainment setup that's going to share a lot of the same things (big screen, surround sound, etc) and let my computer setup be dictated by productivity requirements.
wattywatts
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Posted: 18th Oct 2014 03:03
Quote: "I understand why a lot of people prefer PC."

I didn't always, I'm still a big Sony fan. It's just that on PC I can play almost anything. My surface pro is nice and portable, can plug into an HDTV easily, use a controller, play new and old games, etc. I can run every Elder scrolls game on one machine.

But of course intrusive DRM like Steam and Origin is ruining the awesomeness.
Dar13
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Posted: 18th Oct 2014 06:28
Quote: " But of course intrusive DRM like Steam and Origin is ruining the awesomeness. "

Steam, in particular, is a mixed bag for DRM. If the publisher wants, it can enforce intrusive DRM like region locking and locking it to Steam, but the publisher can also decide to not utilize any DRM at all. The new overhaul to the store page does tell you if there's additional DRM(i.e. U-Play).

Origin is run by EA so it has all the restrictions that EA wants all its games to have. Though I must say that I'm impressed with its relatively low resource usage(~80MB for me). Steam usually pulls ~120MB. In the grand scheme of things when I have a VM using 1 GB and Firefox using 300+ MB, those two services using 0% CPU and little RAM don't bother me. *shrug*

Airslide
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Posted: 18th Oct 2014 08:40
I was sort of happy for Origin because most of my EA games had been retail box copies anyways and keeping them up-to-date (and dealing with inconsistent DRM schemes) was becoming a hassle. Origin was quick to "adopt" these titles and add them to my account, which was nice.

I've always liked Steam, used it before Half-Life 2 was even out. What I dislike now is that they allow developers, like Ubisoft, to wrap their games up in additional DRM on top of Steam. Like, Steam isn't enough? Really? I imagine they do it to keep those developers on the platform, but it still makes the whole process feel a bit more icky for those games.

Consoles are nice, I think, because all of the extra steps are (for the most part) eliminated and it just functions as expected. The real wrench in the works right now, though, is the lack of backwards compatibility in the Xbox One and PS4. I'll give PC players that – it takes some work, but I can still get DooM, Quake, or No One Lives Forever running on a modern PC (that last one took a lot of work to get just right on Windows 8). There's no way for me to play any of my 360 games on my Xbox One though, let alone Original Xbox games (not counting re-releases).
Dar13
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Posted: 18th Oct 2014 10:33
The lack of backwards compatibility in consoles is probably more because of the different computer architectures between the two generations. X1 went to x86 from PowerPC and PS4 went to x86 from Cell. I doubt the two architectures even share the same instruction set, let alone behavior.

Quote: "I've always liked Steam, used it before Half-Life 2 was even out. What I dislike now is that they allow developers, like Ubisoft, to wrap their games up in additional DRM on top of Steam. Like, Steam isn't enough? Really? I imagine they do it to keep those developers on the platform, but it still makes the whole process feel a bit more icky for those games."

That's probably because of the publishers more than the developer, but yeah I understand the gripe. At least UPlay doesn't entirely suck anymore.

The Zoq2
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Posted: 18th Oct 2014 11:55
First of all, that meme makes no sense. Steam might update about once a week and when it does, it's just a 100 mb download or something.

Quote: "My current thoughts are leaning towards consoles being much better situated for playing games, as the devices themselves are a form of DRM and thus no additional protection is utilized."


But the devices being DRM might be a bigger issue in my opinion. Ubisofts DRM on assassins creed 2 was cracked almost instantly and you would have been able to use that crack on the retail version if you wanted to, even when the ubi servers were down. The only DRM that I know of that hasn't been cracked is the one included in the latest Sim city, as far as I know, nobody was able to create a hacked client/server that worked with the game.

The reason console DRM is probably worse in my opinion is because it is built into the console, you need that specific machine to play your games and if it breaks you are screwed. It might work a bit better now but what do you do when microsoft stop producing the X1 and when the live servers go down. You may be able to still play on singleplayer on your old hardware but when that breaks, there will be no way to play those games.

Even though steam and the other DRM stores have built in DRM, it can almost always be cracked and when the steam servers finally go down you can crack your games and there might even be community projects to bring matchmaking servers and similar back. Look at this project that creates a community built matchmaking system for battlefield 2 since that died when gamespy died. http://www.battlelog.co/

Still, I have to admit it's a bit scary to have all of my games on steam. Yesterday me and my friends were playing some games on skype when suddenly, the steam servers went down for maintennance. We were unable to play any games that we have purchased during the last 3 years. We could probably have used offline mode but that wouldn't work with any multiplayer games since so many of them use the steam friend system for servers.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Airslide
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Posted: 18th Oct 2014 21:27
Quote: "The lack of backwards compatibility in consoles is probably more because of the different computer architectures between the two generations. X1 went to x86 from PowerPC and PS4 went to x86 from Cell. I doubt the two architectures even share the same instruction set, let alone behavior."


The funny thing is, if I recall, the original Xbox had an Intel... so they could have had x86 through the whole line and had a 32-bit compatibility layer like Windows on the Xbox One, but they threw PowerPC in the mix. Oh well.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Oct 2014 21:42
Quote: "if I recall, the original Xbox had an Intel..."
733 MHz x86 Intel Celeron/Pentium III Custom Hybrid CPU

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Oct 2014 19:56
My opinion on PC DRM is mixed, I've always liked Steam, but I think more account security and the ability to recover from a stolen account would be more ideal - so you can keep what you've paid for.

However, Steam is good for many reasons. I can use it offline, I don't need to stay connected to the internet to play - for instance, my internet was down the other day and I just played games already on my Steam. And sharing in Steam is quite good too, in that a person can share their Steam library with their family settings - there is a limit, but it actually means me and a friend can play multiplayer games and not necessarily pay a bomb. And of course, Steam sales are beautiful - and I can get games for less by buying in bulk for friends and the fact I can buy for friends is a bonus. Sometimes can make for an easier birthday or Christmas present and also, a friend needed cheering up a few weeks ago, so I bought her a game and we played multiplayer.

Steam is also great in that it is encouraging and supporting multiple OS's, with Windows, Linux and MacOS and doesn't have you buying different versions of a game for different OS's.



But, there are cases of poor DRM on PC. Ubisoft is a notorious offender, it's one reason I don't have Assassin's Creed on the PC. And UPlay, oh god, I hate UPlay. Origin is actually good, but just feels redundant. And I really disliked SecuRom with mainly EA titles, but doesn't seem to be a thing, though I don't really play anything by EA on PC. Mass Effect (I ended up playing the sequels on console) and Spore would be the last EA games I played on PC.

The advantage of console games is that you just need to own the disk and it's yours and you can pass it on to other people and even sell it on. Second hand PC games are now a rare thing because of DRM, so there is that problem, but PC games are now mostly available through the net. I *try* to support my local GAME store, but its PC collection is minuscule and barely has anything I want to play.


I would say each has their pros and cons. I actually rate PC gaming with Steam over console gaming. Hence my 360 is collecting dust and I've not bought a PS4.

So to summarise

PC DRM
Pros: can share using family options, can gift digital downloads, can buy bulk items with discount to distribute among friends, Steam can go offline and as with services like Steam, if your disk breaks, its tied to your account, so you can just download your game.

Cons: SecuRom limitations, some DRM is awful (like Ubisoft) and can restrict your fun and experiences, updates, if your account is lost and you don't have success with customer services then your purchases are lost.

Console DRM
Pros: you only need to rely on the disk you own. You can sell and buy console games second hand and your game is not tied to an account nor at you necessarily limited. You can lend your game to friends and can rent titles you want to try.

Cons: Disk broke, lost or scratched, you need to buy another. No sharing features you might in Steam, like Family sharing - you'd need to buy more than one copy of a game if you wanted to multiplayer it.

Airslide
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Posted: 19th Oct 2014 20:58
Quote: "Steam is also great in that it is encouraging and supporting multiple OS's, with Windows, Linux and MacOS and doesn't have you buying different versions of a game for different OS's."


I love that they did this. It was really nice still having a library of games to play after switching to Mac, albeit one that was only a fraction of my full library. There's a number of games that have the potential to be SteamPlay titles that aren't though – any of the old DOSBox based titles (like Wolf3D and Doom) could be made available on Mac and Linux, and a few, like BioShock, are available in the Mac App Store but not as Mac titles on Steam. Of course this isn't Steam's fault (decision of the publisher or developer).
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Oct 2014 21:12
But the positive thing is that there has been an increase in titles for the OS's, particularly Linux, it's got a lot more titles than it used to, but also, Linux has become more accessible with more tools being available for it. SteamOS will likely be good for the Linux market.

Clonkex
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Posted: 20th Oct 2014 11:50
Quote: "What I dislike now is that they allow developers, like Ubisoft, to wrap their games up in additional DRM on top of Steam."


Totally agree.

Quote: "First of all, that meme makes no sense. Steam might update about once a week and when it does, it's just a 100 mb download or something."


First of all - "just" a 100MB download?! 100MB is not a small download! Second, I'm sure the OP was referring to game updates as well as Steam client updates.

I could go on a long rant about how endlessly frustrating and annoying DRM is, but I really can't be bothered typing it all.

Instead, I'll say this. I used to absolutely detest Steam. I hated it with a passion ever since my brother and I were forced to use it to play Portal. But it was a necessary evil, something you had to have to play an increasing number of games, and we just had to get used to it.

Over time, we've learned many tricks and ways around the various annoying parts of Steam, and within the last few months Valve has actually done a brilliant job updating it to make it easier to use and less restrictive. I love the concept of Steam (one location for all my games with super-easy delta updates) and most of the time this "just works". However it's an absolute nightmare if all I want to do is just copy a game to another computer to play LAN with my brother and sisters, and THAT'S when I really wish it were less controlling.

Final thoughts: DRM causes more pirating than no DRM. Maybe that's an oversimplification. Today's [i]excessive[i] DRM causes more pirating than previous DRMs have.

Fuzz
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Posted: 20th Oct 2014 15:19
Quote: "First of all - "just" a 100MB download?! 100MB is not a small download! Second, I'm sure the OP was referring to game updates as well as Steam client updates."


Really? Even with bad Australian internet 100MB is only like 2 minutes to download.

bitJericho
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Posted: 20th Oct 2014 15:43
Quote: "Final thoughts: DRM causes more pirating than no DRM. Maybe that's an oversimplification. Today's excessive DRM causes more pirating than previous DRMs have."


DRM isn't about stopping piracy. It's about controlling the user.

Quik
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Posted: 20th Oct 2014 15:50
mmh, DRM does not do anything about piracy, unless it's reeally obtrusive, and in the end piracy will win that battle anyway, it will find a way.
And DRM if anything helps piracy; Since if a game is having annoying DRM people will be more keen towards the pirated version.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Dar13
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Posted: 20th Oct 2014 16:59
Quote: "However it's an absolute nightmare if all I want to do is just copy a game to another computer to play LAN with my brother and sisters, and THAT'S when I really wish it were less controlling."

And that is why Family Sharing was made for Steam. That exact situation.
Quote: "
First of all - "just" a 100MB download?! 100MB is not a small download! Second, I'm sure the OP was referring to game updates as well as Steam client updates."

For something as large as Steam, that's a relatively small download. We're in the age where games are 30+ GB and their delta updates are 1+ GB.

Quik
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Posted: 20th Oct 2014 17:01
yeah well just to pinch in, living in the privelaged land of sweden where 100m/bit internet is the norm so 100mb takes about a couple seconds to download

While I can certanly see why updates can be annoying, it is certanly not an issue we have and as a matter of fact, it's incredibly appreciated



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Indicium
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Posted: 20th Oct 2014 19:02
Quote: "100m/bit internet is the norm so 100mb takes about a couple seconds to download "


8 seconds.
wattywatts
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Posted: 20th Oct 2014 20:24
Quote: "yeah well just to pinch in, living in the privelaged land of sweden where 100m/bit internet is the norm so 100mb takes about a couple seconds to download "

Where I live, 1.5 mb/s is the fastest available.
Clonkex
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Posted: 21st Oct 2014 05:16
Quote: "Really? Even with bad Australian internet 100MB is only like 2 minutes to download."


It's not so much the speed at which 100MB downloads (because in the case of Steam client updates, they happen in the background - no waiting), it's the amount of data. When you only have 2GB/month download limit (peak times - off-peak we have 180GB) and 100MB a day goes through it pretty darn quickly. I really hate the way you can turn off auto-updates for all games but not the Steam client itself

Dar13
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Posted: 21st Oct 2014 06:09
Quote: " It's not so much the speed at which 100MB downloads (because in the case of Steam client updates, they happen in the background - no waiting), it's the amount of data. When you only have 2GB/month download limit (peak times - off-peak we have 180GB) and 100MB a day goes through it pretty darn quickly. I really hate the way you can turn off auto-updates for all games but not the Steam client itself "

It's not everyday, it's maybe once a week for me. Unless you're on the beta client and then you should expect frequent updates anyways.

Fuzz
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Posted: 21st Oct 2014 06:21
Quote: "It's not so much the speed at which 100MB downloads (because in the case of Steam client updates, they happen in the background - no waiting), it's the amount of data. When you only have 2GB/month download limit (peak times - off-peak we have 180GB) and 100MB a day goes through it pretty darn quickly. I really hate the way you can turn off auto-updates for all games but not the Steam client itself "


Damn! 2GB a month? I guess that 100MB would seem a lot then. I've got Unlimited data but my top speed is like 1.5MB on a good day haha

Seditious
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Posted: 21st Oct 2014 06:21
Quote: "Where I live, 1.5 mb/s is the fastest available."


I think you mean 1.5 megabytes per second, which is 12mb/s.
gamerboots
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2014 07:58 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2014 20:50
I for one do not like DRM. DRM only affects customers, not pirates. Sadly I have plenty of games that use it, but what if someone wants to put the software they just bought on an offline pc? Well, if they must be online to activate it then there goes that idea.

Quote: "I've always liked Steam, used it before Half-Life 2 was even out. What I dislike now is that they allow developers, like Ubisoft, to wrap their games up in additional DRM on top of Steam. Like, Steam isn't enough? Really? "


I use steam as well and have ran into similar situations. I bought the game then it wants 1-3 additional codes. I have to say that in these cases it is a bit overkill.

--------
DBP Archive
bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2014 15:52
Quote: "DRM only affects pirates, not customers. "


Ah, so you make backups of your games in case they get destroyed? You can sell your steam games to your best friend? You can play games offline even when they're intended to be played only online like SimCity (in the past)?

No? Well what if I told you these are all the things pirates can do, usually a week or two before the official release? DRM isn't to stop piracy, it's to keep legitimate buyers from doing the above listed things.

Van B
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2014 17:24
DRM encourages piracy. Seriously when the pricing of games is still too high to warrant buying an extra copy, and DRM prevents the methods that were somehow OK 8 years ago, what do they expect people to do.

If a game costs £40, and every other week a friend visits who would probably like it, so it would be cool to have it on a second PC for multiplayer, for those visits, until something else comes along. So we end up with 1 copy being used heavily, and 1 copy being used once a fortnight - but they cost the same, there's no allowance for multiplayer sharing, there's no games these days that even support split screen. So consumers here are forced to either pay twice as much for a game, just for a couple days usage in a month - or they can bypass the whole thing and just download a pirate version.

Brand loyalty is becoming just as scarce as customer support these days. We will end up in a situation where a PC game can only be sold for peanuts, we will end up the same way the mobile market ended up, and the PC is already leaning towards... I'm talking about free to play, pay to win games.

Hell, look at the new CounterStrike game... You get crates, and Valve sell keys to unlock those crates at $1.50
Some people spend $800 per day on keys
Some rare items that you get in those crates sell for hundreds of dollars.
Sorry - but I remember paying actual money for that game for my younger brother - I don't remember it being free and funded by fricken key sales. They have us hog tied 2 different ways... it's like they can't decide how best to screw us, so they just do it both ways instead.
I'd love to meet the guy responsible for that one... I'll teach him the value of money with my $17 virtual knife.

I am the one who knocks...
The Zoq2
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2014 18:36 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2014 18:36
Quote: "If a game costs £40, and every other week a friend visits who would probably like it, so it would be cool to have it on a second PC for multiplayer, for those visits, until something else comes along. So we end up with 1 copy being used heavily, and 1 copy being used once a fortnight"


You complain at games costing to much if you won't play them a lot, and you also complain that you can get the game cheap and then spend more money on it if you are interested?

I love the way Valve fund both CS and Dota 2. The low price of CS makes the barrier to entry really low meaning that anyone can pick it up and play and if you need a second account to play with friends, its cheap enough to buy it. Then, if you enjoy the game you are free to spend more money on ingame items. That isn't a problem IMO because the items you buy don't affect gameplay, just cosmetics. And since the items are traded between players, you can even make money from selling the items you get. Dota 2 is similar, all items you purchase are cosmetic and you can also buy and sell the items to eachother but dotas system is even better. AFAIK the items are made as mods by the community and valve just implements them in the game if they find good ones. That means the game can be free for everyone, you can't buy stuff to get an advantage and if you do end up liking the game, you can spend money on cosmetic items. Since the new cosmetic content is developed by the players, valve don't have to spend as much money on development and can make it free. I have friends who play dota and have made money from selling ingame items, enough to buy one or 2 games.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Airslide
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2014 18:38
I'm not a huge fan of free-to-play either. In fact, most of the mobile F2P games I've seen lately are downright detestable... I don't understand how people can stand to spend so much time in them. I'm much happier paying upfront for a quality game rather than stringing out my payment ten times over in order to get the game to let me play it properly.

I'm less bothered by games that provide aesthetic items for purchase. A lot of these games eventually morph into something that resembles pay-to-win, but until then purchases feel like a gesture of support for the developer rather than necessity.

As a developer myself, the idea of piracy feels icky... but despite not partaking myself, I do wonder how bad it would be if developers/publishers didn't have to "compete" with it. The DRM and business models would probably be even more horrendous.
Quik
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2014 20:22
Quote: "I love the way Valve fund both CS and Dota 2. "

Must say that I agree; Dota 2 and CS both have pretty good ways of funding; CS less so because some weapons do affect the game?
and TF2 is a mess when it comes to that...
Anything that is completly optional and purely cosmetic is something you can put a price tag and get away with in my book.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
The Zoq2
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2014 20:25
Quote: "CS less so because some weapons do affect the game?"


As far as I know, all you unlock are skins. You own all the actual guns when you get the game

Also, I think there is a diffirence between mobile F2P where the whole game is designed to pump money out of your pockets and high quality (PC, consoles) free to play where the game is designed to make it fun to play for free but still get some money out of it

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Quik
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2014 20:26
Quote: "As far as I know, all you unlock are skins. You own all the actual guns when you get the game
"

uncertain, considering some weapons are exchangable - but agian, not entirely sure



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gamerboots
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2014 21:01
Quote: "DRM isn't to stop piracy, it's to keep legitimate buyers from doing the above listed things."

That post should have read that it only affects customers (edited)

When someone purchases a game they should be able to put it on any pc they wish and make as many backups as they see fit. Steam already authenticates who is using the software and there is little need for backups except to save download time so there is no need for it there. How many are actually willing to give out their steam account and password to their friends? Considering it saves your credit card info its not something I would want to do.
Quote: "
Brand loyalty is becoming just as scarce as customer support these days. "

Absolutely. There is a serious lack of support from game companies now days. It is now to the point that some companies (not all) start a project and then abandon it halfway through while starting a sequel of their unfinished game. Can't stand it when they do this. I can name a few off the top of my hand but not going to mention names. I have even seen this happen from big companies as well. Its like a plague in the industry.
Then there are those who release expansion after expansion which in most cases should have been included in the original game to begin with.
I hate it when its one edition after another of the same game until they finally reach the point they release a complete edition.

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DBP Archive
Clonkex
Forum Vice President
13
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Joined: 20th May 2010
Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 23rd Oct 2014 07:18
Quote: "It's not everyday, it's maybe once a week for me. Unless you're on the beta client and then you should expect frequent updates anyways."


No, it seems to be every day or two. Probably you're just missing it because it happens in the background when you're not there.

Quote: "I think you mean 1.5 megabytes per second, which is 12mb/s."


No, I think he was meaning 1.5Mbps. I thought he was saying he had really slow internet.

Quote: "No? Well what if I told you these are all the things pirates can do, usually a week or two before the official release? DRM isn't to stop piracy, it's to keep legitimate buyers from doing the above listed things."


He means it only works on paying, legal customers. DRM doesn't do anything to pirates. It's like that theory that cars should be forcibly limited to the current speed limit, but the switch could be turned off. It would only affect people that would have obeyed the law anyway as the speeders would turn it off.

Seditious
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2014 08:22
Quote: "No, I think he was meaning 1.5Mbps. I thought he was saying he had really slow internet."


Not sure I've heard of a 1.5mb/s connection speed, which is why I suggested that. Still, a lot of people do consider 1.5MB/s to be slow, for some reason!
Quik
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2014 09:01
weeelll it's because it is...



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Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 23rd Oct 2014 11:19
It used to be quite common for games to let you start a multiplayer game, eject the CD and start the game on another PC and play over LAN. I remember on the Playstation, Command and Conquer had a second disk so you could play link up games.

There's really no allowance for this now, even though the game services like Steam should be able to do the same thing electronically. Like hey - I just paid £40 for this game, how about you give me some free access time that I can send to a friend, they'll get to try the game fully and might end up buying it for themselves... gamers spreading the word through a tiny little bit of generosity from the companies we support. I often get discount vouchers for games I just wont ever play or already have - Steam should send vouchers for games that my friends have and play a lot but I don't have.

As for CS, well so what if I own all the guns, and all I unlock are skins... why the hell should it cost £1.50 for a skin that you don't even get to see before you pay for it?
I blame TF2 - people went all crazy over hats, and then they became a commodity, and people will pay for this rubbish hand over fist apparently. It's not just valve though - EA's BF4 battlepacks are just as ridiculous, they charge about $1.50 for them, so people who don't have time to play BF4 can still get all the gear, randomly - if you want a specific scope for a specific gun, then you better consider a re-mortgage. At least you get some useful items in battlepacks, and at least you get them for free by playing the game. This is one case where EA are being fairer than Valve I think.

I don't mind paying for good stuff - if they made CS free then just sold the guns then I'd be fine with that, I wouldn't mind spending $5 on a good rifle - and more if it's unique... its the whole take a gamble for $1.50 and you might get an alternative texture, like we are nothing more than morons emptying our money into a fruit machine because there might be a $200 Hello Kitty skin in there. That's the way PC gaming is going, trinket hunting, gambling and grinding. Look at the situation just a few years ago, we had some seriously big games that provided great value for money for the time you'd spend on them, like Fallout3, Minecraft and DayZ Mod. IMO the value in PC gaming hasn't declined gradually, it has dropped off a cliff!

I am the one who knocks...
The Zoq2
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Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posted: 23rd Oct 2014 13:27
I think a lot of people spend money to unlock the CS cases because of the chanse of getting something worth more. I guess it's sort of like gambeling. The thing that makes CS better than BF4 in that area is that in CS, you won't get any gameplay advantage from the items while the unlocks in battlefield give you a (slight) advantage which makes the game pay to winny. Also, nobody is forcing you to buy anything, you can get the game for 10$ and play it forever after that without being owned by that guy who sent hundreds of dollars on new fancy 1 hit kill homing missile guns

Quote: "Look at the situation just a few years ago, we had some seriously big games that provided great value for money for the time you'd spend on them, like Fallout3, Minecraft and DayZ Mod. IMO the value in PC gaming hasn't declined gradually, it has dropped off a cliff!
"


There are plenty of games with a traditional "pay 50$ for the game and play it for as much as you wish, perhaps you can buy some DLC too" games out there but some companies try to experiment with new buissnes models which can't really be a bad thing. You don't have to buy the games afterall...

Quote: "It used to be quite common for games to let you start a multiplayer game, eject the CD and start the game on another PC and play over LAN. I remember on the Playstation, Command and Conquer had a second disk so you could play link up games."


Sure, it's nice for you but it limits profits for the devs/publishers. Why would they let 2 people pay for one game when they can get 2 sales instead. Perhaps half of those people will just buy one copy but the other half would be lost profits if they didn't sell both copies.

If it's a good developer/publisher, that money will probably go to making better games in the future, and if it isn't, why do you buy the game in the first place?

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Dar13
15
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Joined: 12th May 2008
Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 24th Oct 2014 05:57
Quote: "There's really no allowance for this now, even though the game services like Steam should be able to do the same thing electronically. Like hey - I just paid £40 for this game, how about you give me some free access time that I can send to a friend, they'll get to try the game fully and might end up buying it for themselves... gamers spreading the word through a tiny little bit of generosity from the companies we support. I often get discount vouchers for games I just wont ever play or already have - Steam should send vouchers for games that my friends have and play a lot but I don't have."

You can now set up Steam Family Sharing so that your friends have access to your games. It's not optimal, but it's the closest you're going to get to your hypothesized scenario due to publisher restrictions.

Quote: " I don't mind paying for good stuff - if they made CS free then just sold the guns then I'd be fine with that, I wouldn't mind spending $5 on a good rifle - and more if it's unique... its the whole take a gamble for $1.50 and you might get an alternative texture, like we are nothing more than morons emptying our money into a fruit machine because there might be a $200 Hello Kitty skin in there. That's the way PC gaming is going, trinket hunting, gambling and grinding. Look at the situation just a few years ago, we had some seriously big games that provided great value for money for the time you'd spend on them, like Fallout3, Minecraft and DayZ Mod. IMO the value in PC gaming hasn't declined gradually, it has dropped off a cliff!"

This just entirely false in the case of the Valve games. Valve implemented the Steam Community Market to directly address this issue. You can directly pay for whatever items you want(such as a AK-74 Safari Camo for $0.31), but all the items are cosmetic or non-gameplay related(at least for the Valve games). The guns come with the game along with the maps, you don't have to pay extra for more guns.

Quote: "IMO the value in PC gaming hasn't declined gradually, it has dropped off a cliff!"

Talk about a massive generalization. What about Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor? Dishonored? The Banner Saga? Thief? The Witcher? Wolfenstein? Banished? LUFTRAUSERS? Civilization 5 / Beyond Earth? Tropico? Mass Effect? Batman : Arkham Asylum / City? Bastion? Titanfall? Far Cry 3?

If you only gauge it by MMOs and F2P and F2P-likes then yes quality has gone down. The deluge of Greenlight games is another source of dilution, but there are still plenty of great games out that can easily fill many many hours of game time while providing a good narrative and immersion.

Quote: "No, it seems to be every day or two. Probably you're just missing it because it happens in the background when you're not there."

It seems I forgot about the 25MB update that Steam does every other day. Of course, I don't let it load on boot so Steam could be updating every day but I don't see it. I see your point now though.

Quik
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Posted: 24th Oct 2014 11:31
Quote: "but all the items are cosmetic or non-gameplay related(at least for the Valve games)."

With the exception of Team Fortress 2



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 24th Oct 2014 12:00
The only 2 games in that list that I would probably play are Farcry3 and Bastion - hardly new games... and The Witcher? - what is that like 5 years old now! - but I do get your point, I probably haven't looked hard enough and am too stuck in my ways.

I'm probably just a bit bored, I don't have a game that I can sink a decent amount of time into. At least Farcry4 is out soon, that's always good for a couple of months gameplay.

Quick query on CS though, can you make your own skins for weapons? - that might be fun and could shut me up about the whole crate/key nonsense

I am the one who knocks...
Quik
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Location: Equestria!
Posted: 24th Oct 2014 12:58
Quote: "The only 2 games in that list that I would probably play are Farcry3 and Bastion"

Funny how I didnt like Far Cry 3 in any other aspect than that Vaas was a great character; The gameplay was dull and very generic and the whole "hunt animals for crafting" was soo unpolished.
Overall I stopped playing FC3 after about half way through
Bastion is great though ; )
not very excited for Far Cry 4, it really just does look like Far Cry 3 "expanded edition" - doesnt seem to be doing much if anything differently. Well aside from the setting

I know in CS:Source you could make your own skins! ^^



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 24th Oct 2014 13:45
I thought FC3's 'crafting' was just plain stupid as well - having to kill a shark to automatically get the skin and craft a weapon holster, it's like weapon progression was just bolted on at the last minute. I don't think they've ever came up with a good system, FC2's vending machine thing was just as daft. I think they should just have left it so you can grab whatever a downed enemy was carrying - if you want a sniper rifle, go kill a sniper
Vaas is IMO the best boss enemy we've seen in years, did you watch the mini-series thing where Vaas tortures McLovin? - that is some entertaining stuff right there - I kinda hoped they'd have a Vaas DLC, where you get to become the psycho-hipster himself.
I think the only FPRPG weapon system that I like is Fallout3/NV - lots of options and ways to improve and repair weapons as you go... plus the special weapons hidden throughout the game are all worth the effort. It's not exactly realistic but you feel like you're in charge of your own loadout at least... and dare I say it - boxing gloves for a melee weapon, what an awesome idea!

I am the one who knocks...
Dar13
15
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Joined: 12th May 2008
Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 24th Oct 2014 15:54
Quote: " Quick query on CS though, can you make your own skins for weapons? - that might be fun and could shut me up about the whole crate/key nonsense "

I believe you can, and you can even put the skins on the market if you so desire. I'm not entirely sure on that front.

Quik
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Location: Equestria!
Posted: 24th Oct 2014 17:16
@Van B
Yes I did watch it, again and again! ^^ I do really love Vaas, he's one of the best characters - especially antagonists, or "semi antagonist" or whatever role he plays xD I've seen in a loong while. Very developed and very intruiging.

Quote: "I think the only FPRPG weapon system that I like is Fallout3/NV - lots of options and ways to improve and repair weapons as you go... plus the special weapons hidden throughout the game are all worth the effort. It's not exactly realistic but you feel like you're in charge of your own loadout at least... and dare I say it - boxing gloves for a melee weapon, what an awesome idea!"

Absolutly agree! I did always find it quite dumb that in Far Cry 3, once you found one of em towers, you got infinite access to the guns. It felt like cheating :/

I do believe Fallout 3 was the first time I encountered scoped revolvers too, That was amazing ^^



Whose eyes are those eyes?
wattywatts
14
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Joined: 25th May 2009
Location: Michigan
Posted: 28th Oct 2014 02:27
A new DRM problem presents itself today!
I bought an older game because I've really been wanting to play it lately. I had to order it on ebay and finally got it in the mail. But it won't install. I can't even rip it to iso format because of the safedisc protection (I think it might even be not-so-legal to do so, since that would involve breaking the DRM?) Anyway, as it turns out other people are also unable to install the game because of the SafeDisc stuff. So basically, I cannot legally play the game I bought.
Indicium
15
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Joined: 26th May 2008
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Posted: 28th Oct 2014 03:47
Circumvent SafeDisk. Screw the DRM, it's a legal grey-zone anyway. AFAIK there are no laws that explicitly prevent it. Why won't it install?

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