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Geek Culture / Sony take on the Nintendo handheld empire!!!!!

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Red general
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Posted: 26th May 2003 00:14
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For over a decade Nintendo has dominated the hand held hand market, but no more...


At the end of 2004 Sony will launch the PSP. The unit will read Universal Media Discs (60mm optical disks that can store 1.8GB) stored in cartridge form (might be similar to a mini-disk [slot opens, thin, small, etc]). The screen will be 480x272 pixels, and it will come with a backlight, 3D rendering graphics technology, MPEG-4 support and a USB 2.0 port built in. The USB 2.0 might be for either connecting to the computer for linking more than 1 PSP together or both.


Should be good. It would be nice if it coudl be possible to write to these disks so that we can make our own programs (1.8GB should be more than sufficient), and a plugin for DBPro so that at one command it can be optamised (rendering, hardware and so forth) for the use of the PSP [unlikely but you never know]


Sould be interesting to see how the PSP turns out

RED GENERAL
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th May 2003 01:00
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i've heard so much about this PSP, and this isn't the first Sony handheld - so it's gonna have to be something pretty remarkable.

i mean at the end of the day the Gameboy Advance has alot more power than has been used sofar, infact with a 300Mhz 32-Bit Gecko processor (meaning it has roughly the same power as a Dreamcast inside it)
and i've not seen anyone take FULL advantage of this processor yet, not the expandable romchip architecture and with Nintendo releasing in the second quarter a gizmo that will let GBA developers use the GC GameDiscs i don't think Nintendo will be going anywhere soon from being the king of handhelds.

sony are tanking at the moment, somehow i have a feeling the actual reality from the hear'say of this console is a bit to coincidental - i mean it's been in Dev for 2years now, suddenly when they're loosing more and more sales to Nintendo and Microsoft the PSP finally comes outta the closet, personally i think that its another rush development just to keep the market interested. Tum ti Hum

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Kentaree
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Posted: 26th May 2003 01:10
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I'm a big Nintendo fan myself, so I'll definitely not buy the PSP. Also, Nintendo already have a user base of several million for the GBA, and still more before the PSP is released. One of the reasons that the PSX and PS2 had such a good start was because they were released before the corresponding Nintendo consoles, thus the users who really wanted a next-gen console got them instead of the Nintendo, but now Nintendo has the head start. Also, unless I heard wrong, a new GB is already in development, so by the time the PSP has a decent base, a better one will be released rendering the PSP outdated, so theres still life in Nintendo yet
If only they got their marketing sorted out

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indi
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Posted: 26th May 2003 02:54
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I think i will invest in a playstation3, I skipped 2

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Dazzag
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Posted: 26th May 2003 03:23
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I thought it was the GC with the 400ishMhz Gecko? Thought the GBA was about 16Mhz with a 32Bit Risc CPU (with an 8Bit one for backwards compatibility)? Could be wrong, but I thought only the GamePark32 (see [href]www.gbax.com[/href]) had over 100Mhz in a handheld? Fair enough, could be wrong, but 300Mhz in a handheld with only a resolution of 240x160 would probably give us Quake 3+ type games.... although the GP32 def. looks a bit more like it (apparently a version of Quake - original core code used - is coming soon... hmmm..).

Interestingly, I love the GBA (and now the GBA SP). I probably wouldn't be bothered with the PSP as I realised a while back that my favourite games have always been 2D (fooled myself for about a decade with 3D games), and the GBA is perfect for these. Haven't bought a PC game for about 6 months now (and I have bought quite a lot over the years). Also I was a Speccy/Atari kid, so I never knew the wonders of Nintendo/Sega. So all these rehashes are like totally new games to me. Heh, am like a kid again, almost. Now if only they would re-do harrier attack!!

Cheers

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 03:51 Edited at: 26th May 2003 04:00
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"i mean at the end of the day the Gameboy Advance has alot more power than has been used sofar, infact with a 300Mhz 32-Bit Gecko processor"

Raven, you do say the odd thing from time to time, but that is really the strangest thing I have EVER heard. The "Gecko" processor is a component of the GameCube (that was the codename), and it runs at 485Mhz (PowerPC architecture), as Dazzag already said.

The Gameboy Advance runs a 16Mhz 32-bit ARM chip (ARM, or StrongARM, I am not sure).

In addition the Dreamcast CPU is 200Mhz, not 300. On the manufacturers specs >> "Hitachi SH4 RISC" type - which is closer to Intel than PowerPC specs AFAIK, therefore core clock speeds are not accurately comparable.

Please check your facts before you post, otherwise I don't know when to trust you (say 3D modelling for example) and when not to (now).

The PSP has an amazing list of specifications, but I'll reserve further judgement until I actually see something concrete.

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 04:00
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" not the expandable romchip architecture and with Nintendo releasing in the second quarter a gizmo that will let GBA developers use the GC GameDiscs"

I have not heard anything about this, but then again, I am not in the industry. However, I very much doubt that Ninty would allow GBA developers to use GC gamedisks. For a start, the average GBA cart is 4-8MBs, so using a GC gamedisk would be pointless because:

1) Waste of space (GC discs are 1.5GB)
2) A drive mechanism to spin / read the GC discs would be highly battery intensive.

"i don't think Nintendo will be going anywhere soon from being the king of handhelds."

That I do agree with, however, Ninty were once the king of TV consoles, history COULD repeat itself, but I hope not. The GBA keeps Ninty alive, and allows it to have the GC.

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Eric T
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Posted: 26th May 2003 05:35
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In the very ancient past(2 years ago), psx handheld did exist, it wasn't much but it cost 100 dollars and games were loaded on to the lil psx's HD. Anyone who played FF8 remebers that there was an option in the save menu to load a lil game on to the Lil' PSX. That Lil' PSX cost to damn much and was quickly run into ruins by the GBC and then the GBA.
That will conclude our leson in ancient history today. Stay tuned to learn some more funny stuff.


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Arrow
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Posted: 26th May 2003 07:17
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Ah the old PocketStation, it never made it out of Japan.

Personally, I get tired of stairing at a 2 inch screen for more than hour, and since I'm rarely away from home with nothing to do (when you live 70 miles from the nearest store that sells games, 120 from a store that sells decent games) I don't have the urge to buy a GBA or any other hand held system. I may invest in one if Square/Enix goes gung-ho, but nothing short of Romancing Saga wil warent me getting one.

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Eric T
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Posted: 26th May 2003 11:30
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the new FFT looks interesting on the GBA, might wanna try that.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 26th May 2003 11:49
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i wouldve bought a gba if it had the backlight... oh well... i dont know about the sp either...from the pics it looked pretty awkward...ive not had the chance to try out an sp yet tho

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Eric T
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Posted: 26th May 2003 11:50
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i hate the sp...its like a really tiny laptop

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th May 2003 12:17
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explain to me where in the hell you read that the GBA has a 16Mhz 32Bit processer?

the GB had an 4Mhz 8Bit, the GBP has a 11.82Mhz 8Bit, the GBC had a 16Mhz 16Bit... the GBA has a 300Mhz 32Bit Processor
the site no longer has the actual specs but i can assure you that it is that speed and it is the EXACT same IBM based processor technology used to make the Gecko.

The whole point in the GBA and the GC was to have them in technical specifications close to identical, and if you were even a fan of Nintendo when the GBA hype was getting bust up even NoM was like "This is a handheld console without a 3D Chip the hell do we need 300Mhz for?"
just because the processors are different, in speed relation it is AS powerful as a Dreamcast ... and infact another big hitter at the time it was being released was that this handheld console held as much processing power as a Nintendo64 in the palm of your hand.
and it does, infact it has WAAAY more power than you'd imagine.

what i'd suggest if you believe me wrong in this instance is to find the proof from Nintendo themselves, because thier specs on all of thier sites have stipped the details about the processor, soundchip, etc... and god knows why.
but really if you still don't believe me send them a bloody email, i'm sure they'll tell you.

the only thing holding current developers back taking advantage is the fact that 4Mb just isnt' enough for an entire game engine, some have made some good progress - but in the end you lumbered with 4Mb.

also cast the possibility that if the GBA was only 16Mhz, firstly why? when the N64 chip itself could probably be made in handheld form... secondly this would make the new N-Gage faster with its 101Mhz processor (you seriously want me to believe that the Nokia phone console has more power than Nintendo's flagship handheld??) and that would also make it far less processing power than even the Playstation, which is 7yo techonolgy!

you can vamp up standard CPUs to 90Mhz without requiring any heating of anykind, RISCs can be set even higher due to thier lighter load, so technically anything less than even 90Mhz would've made no sense even in the slightest, i mean you're honestly telling me Nintendo would spend $140biln on developing a 10yo processor?
if thats what your telling me then your more loco than i though you were.

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Eric T
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Posted: 26th May 2003 12:22
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i meant the layout(the structure) was like a tiny laptop. lol

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Van B
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Posted: 26th May 2003 13:05
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I quite like the GBA - well, I detest the old game-gear looking GBA, but the new flip screen model is pretty nice, an actual visible screen at last!.

As for power etc - well I personally don't see it, it's certainly not as fast as a dreamcast, or even an N64, considering the dreamcast often out performs the PS2. I can see why the PSP would be successful though, people regard mobile gaming as the gameboy, but all those vehicles with Playstations built in... once you can get the technology to do all that for a couple of hundred quid, you'll see a lot of these babies in lorries, cars, maybe even see them installed in passenger airplanes.


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Eric T
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Posted: 26th May 2003 13:12
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ps2 up in da ride...thats the way to go.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th May 2003 14:05
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you've not played many games on the GBA if you've not seen its power
personally i hate the SP, its just so bleck! not just looks but the way it feels is so damnd uncomfortable - god knows why people prefer it.

i'd suggest anyone who's curious about the power of the GBA though should checkout Tony Hawks Pro Skater or Crystal Fantasy both have some good 3D in them ... and there were alot of new engines on show at E3 - in particular one thats caught my interest is Driver not that crappyass conversion but the playstation version converted directly for it - although the building scapes are different detail wise, as they had to us ean array block and build the 3D from that and use the same textures over and over (size problems) it still looks like one of the best dam'd conversions, especially as it has FSAA and Motion Bluring

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 14:40 Edited at: 26th May 2003 15:10
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"explain to me where in the hell you read that the GBA has a 16Mhz 32Bit processer?"

On the specs on the Nintendo website and the ARM part is mentioned on the specsheet inside the box.

"the GBA has a 300Mhz 32Bit Processor"

If the GBA had a 300Mhz CPU, I would not experience slowdown on Rayman and Doom, one is a conversion of a PS-1 Game (the PS-1 chip is 90-odd Mhz), the other is a conversion of a 1993 PC game, when most people were running 386s or 486s at best.

"The whole point in the GBA and the GC was to have them in technical specifications close to identical, and if you were even a fan of Nintendo when the GBA hype was getting bust up even NoM was like "This is a handheld console without a 3D Chip the hell do we need 300Mhz for?""

The whole point in the GBA was that it is a relatively powerful, but also highly portable handheld. The GC was supposed to be a low-cost, but powerful games console. It obviously makes sense to use the 16Mhz ARM chip in the GBA because it is used in so many similar tools.

From the Nintendo website (GBA Tech specs):

" 32-Bit ARM with embedded memory "

The ARM chip is a closer relative of Intel rather than PowerPC.

From NintendoInformer.com (GBA Tech specs):

"CPU: 16mhz 32bit RISC-CPU + 8bit CISC-CPU "

From IGN.com (an extremely reputable games site):

"16mhz, 32bit RISC-CPU "


"the GB had an 4Mhz 8Bit, the GBP has a 11.82Mhz 8Bit, the GBC had a 16Mhz 16Bit"

The GB is indeed 4Mhz, 8Bit, however, the Gameboy Colour has an 8Mhz, 8Bit CPU.

This info can be confirmed from Ninty themselves, off any tech sites, or NINTENDO LAND.

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Van B
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Posted: 26th May 2003 14:55
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Raven, I don't know if you've seen the latest games for the GBA, like MOH - the graphics suck dude.

The GBA has similar graphics to Doom, and that's ALL it can manage - the GBA Driver conversion looks fun, but it ain't very pretty. A propper 3D handheld will give the GBA a run for it's money, things are moving forward, and the GB is not advancing quick enough.

My favourite handheld was the Lynx, I don't see any huge leaps forward and I'm talking 10 years ago.


Van-B

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 15:09
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The GBA in comparative terms, is effectively equivilent to the SNES + a bit.

"My favourite handheld was the Lynx"

I never owned a Lynx, but apparently there was a big problem with battery life?

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Evil Noodle
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Posted: 26th May 2003 15:19
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What kind of processor is used in the GBA?


There are two processors in the GBA. A processor similar to z80 for the GB Color mode and a 16MHz ARM/Thumb processor for GBA mode. The GBA mode processor either runs in ARM mode (32bits) or Thumb mode (16bits). Each mode has it's own advantages.
The GBA decides which processor to use on power up, depending on if there is a notch on the back of the cart or not. There is no currently known method for switching processors after powerup or for using both at the same time. In GBA mode, ARM processor mode is enabled during power up and during interrupt handeling.

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Van B
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Posted: 26th May 2003 15:21
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Yeah, the Lynx was quite a monster, similar screen to the game gear, but batteries would last a couple of hours if your lucky. I just plugged it in wherever I went.

I agree about the GBA - I'd say it was more like a SNES than anything else, except with a piss poor 160x100 resolution (or something like that). There isn't enough detail to make decent 3D games, it's as simple as that.


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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 15:28
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True. But I bought Super Monkey Ball GBA recently, it uses true polygonal graphics (vastly simplified though - to a scene of 50 polys max, with a very short camera range).

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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 26th May 2003 16:11
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The graphics on GBA are amazing for a handheld, and currently are the best on the market. If Sony is going to change that will be debatable. Anyway, I thought the SP looked gay too, then my brother got it. It's nothing short of amazing, the frontlight is slightly uneven but it works great and saves battery power that a backlight would use. In addition it has a built in battery that lasts a wicked long time and the layout is FAR better than the clumsy skateboardish look of the original GBA.

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 26th May 2003 16:24
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Hmm PSP spelling Paint Shop Pro to me, but never mind.

The Sony PSP is an interesting concept, personally I would prefer a true portable Playstation, rather than a new system to have to but games for

The really interesting hand-held at the moment from my perspective is the Game Park GP-32, considering you can link it to a PC and basically make and run whatever you want, including emulators for almost any older system, and MP3, Mpg etc. I could buy a 128mb flash card and carry around all my favourite games in one unit

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Dazzag
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Posted: 26th May 2003 16:30
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Both have their advantages. The SP is a bit weird in the beginning but you get used to it.

Double checked loads of websites. Any that mention the Mhz of the main CPU say it is 16Mhz. None mention anything above that. And I would be very very suprised if it was. I mean I ran Doom at 320x200 on a 386 years (also ran on a 286 and could just about play it) ago that ran at 16Mhz (before GL-DOOM and 3D graphics cards). And it ran fine. The GBA is just over half that resolution. And you don't see anything significantly better around. If it was 300Mhz I would expect at least Quake (ran Quake on a P1 133 and it ran fine at 600x480 - amazing with a Voodoo and GLQuake, but that came later), esp. with the sig. lower resolution of the GBA.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th May 2003 16:35
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the PS-One is a 37.33Mhz Risc Processor ... and not anything entirely special either.

both the GBA and GC processors were developed by IBM International, and yes they both use ARM technology - but it isn't the same technology that the Amstrad Achemedes processor was using.

i've never noticed a slowdown in doom, or rayman - if you're experienceing a slowdown i'd suggest you check your batteries or ask for your GBA to be replaced because it should be handling these games with ease.
That aside though Doom is a licence rather than an id rewrite, so i wouldn't be surprised if it was rewritten badly in place - still as i've said i've never had a slowdown even with around 20-25 guys on the screen at once.

Also there is a full 3DEngine right now for it which has been shown on here by a few people ... if your telling me that a 60Hz 16Mhz 32Bit Processor is capable of that then your bloody crazy, it needs atleast 66Mhz 32Bit with MathsCoProcessing to accomplish what it does at a decent speed, which it has been shown at 60fps (something i'd say is quite unheard of on a 16Mhz machine)

add this with the fact that the GBA has everything processed through the CPU and not a graphics chip like the Playstation or x86 machines - besides Crystal Fantasy runs beutifully on it, and i'd say the Playstation would have trouble pushing that many polygons happily.

last time Nintendo had the specs on thier site it was a 300Mhz 32Bit RISC CPU w/Embedded Memory Array.

as for the other GB's i can tell you for a fact they DO NOT run at 8Mhz - and if you don't believe that crack open your GBP or GBC and see for yourself the setup (failing that most good GB Emulators show the speed they're going at No$GMB for example)

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th May 2003 16:42 Edited at: 26th May 2003 16:44
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Dazzag, thats with a seperate graphics processing remember ... but actually i found that you wanted to run Doom on a 386 or 286 with less than 33Mhz and you can kiss its screensize goodbye because you had to make the bloody things screen so small just to make it play at a decent 15fps

i had a 286 38Mhz SX-2 (although i never realised until dad told me, i just thought we had a standard 286 - which is why it came as a shock when i got a second hand 386 16Mhz and it couldn't even run Doom at a playable speed.
As for Quake, i've played that using an old S3 Trio Card on my AthlonXP 1200+ just for an experiement ... even on that machine it'll slow down in places.
without a 3D Accelerator graphics are just plain slow as hell, sure on a P133 w/32mb ram at 320x240 you though that Quake was running quick, but that was compared to a 486dx 120Mhz ... you suddenly realise the truth when you go from an OpenGL card version to standard version again.

its funny but that extra 16Mhz on my 286 actually made all the difference when you played games.

[edit-]
also the 286 has an S2 210 1024Kb SVGA card whereas the 386 had a Cirrus Logic VGA 512Kb

and that also made ALOT of difference.

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 17:37
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"i've never noticed a slowdown in doom, or rayman -"

I'm not the only one who has seen it Raven, it is mentioned in several reviews of said games. Slowdown in Doom only occurs with dynamic lighting on.

"Also there is a full 3DEngine right now for it which has been shown on here by a few people ... if your telling me that a 60Hz 16Mhz 32Bit Processor is capable of that then your bloody crazy, "

Nope. I am not crazy. A 16Mhz, 32bit processor is capable of what AGB games demos have shown. Their Quake demo is very impressive, but I have seen Doom and 3D games running on my Psion 5, which is a 30Mhz StrongARM processor. The amount of optimisation in the engine is amazing, and sprites have been used where-ever possible. In addition, AGB themselves say that most games run at 25-30FPS, only the very basic ones run faster.

Here is an example:

http://www.pocketeers.com/racing1.htm

http://www.pocketeers.com/twoc7.htm
It certainly looks VERY good, but closer inspection shows that the poly count is very low and sprites have been used wherever possible, utilising the GBA's Mode 7 sprite manipulation features heavily.

"besides Crystal Fantasy runs beutifully on it, and i'd say the Playstation would have trouble pushing that many polygons happily."

Do you mean Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicals?
In which case THAT does not run on the GBA, but the Cube version has a GBA link-up feature, which displays maps and so on. The game for the GBA is called Final Fantasy: Advanced Tactics and is an isometric game with static backdrops and sprites.

As for the speed thing and how many polys the GBA can push? Not very many, I also get VERY occassional minor slowdown in Super Monkey Ball Jr, which has scenes comprising 50-100 polys max. This is very difficult to notice, but has been mentioned in one or two reviews. In other words though SMB, is really pushing the GBA.

"last time Nintendo had the specs on thier site it was a 300Mhz 32Bit RISC CPU w/Embedded Memory Array."

No they did not say "300Mhz". They certainly said "32bit RISC CPU", but they never said "300Mhz". Nintendo's main site never mentioned the speed, but the official Nintendo Informer forums did, and it was 16Mhz.

"i can tell you for a fact they DO NOT run at 8Mhz - and if you don't believe that crack open your GBP or GBC and see for yourself the setup ("

Yes they do use 8Mhz CPUs. I get slowdown on some 2D GBC games, subtle, but it is there. Besides, I checked a whole load of spec sites, and guess what? 8Mhz is statet as the speed.

Here is a quote from the Nintendo Informer site:

"Processor: 8 MHz Z80 work alike by Sharp with two processor modes: Single (4MHz) and double (8MHz)"

So far I have shown you all the proof, when you show me some hard evidence to back up your claims.

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 17:40
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As for Quake on the GBA, it doesn't push anywhere NEAR the polycount of the PC game. The characters are sprites, the guns are sprites or textured plains, the level detail is far less than the original game. Because of the low screen res, AGB can hide an awful lot of stuff.

Think about it, you could take a 1000 poly Quake scene, and reproduce it fairly accurately using less than 50, at the resolution of the GBA screen, using sprites and so on, you could mask a lot of the lost detail.

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 17:43
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Quote: ""without a 3D Accelerator graphics are just plain slow as hell, sure on a P133 w/32mb ram at 320x240 you though that Quake was running quick, but that was compared to a 486dx 120Mhz ... you suddenly realise the truth when you go from an OpenGL card version to standard version again.""


My old 133Mhz 16MB RAM PC could cope with Quake quite happily at 640x480, it could not go to the heady hights of 800x600 that my 200Mhz MMX 32MB PC could go to, but not bad even so.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th May 2003 18:14
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Right, this means nintendo could be in a bit of trouble...Well im not buying any Sony handheld thing, because it was Nintendo's idea first . Anyway, I dont think its good for two companies to have a handheld console each. I'm definatly not getting the PSP!

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th May 2003 18:26
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Anyway, after that stupid post i did.
Lol @ Pain shop pro.

I love the graphics on the GBA. They are better than the SNES because obviously the SNES didnt have a very good 3D engine. In fact, it probably wasnt a 3D engine, it was just an illusion!!!...
The N64 is better graphics-wise, but the GBA is still better than that only because the GBA is so portable.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 26th May 2003 18:38
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@Indi: Isn't the Playstation 3 just a little chip to solder into a PS2, giving it some extra power, not a whole new console?

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Van B
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Posted: 26th May 2003 18:52
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Aha - Stunt Race FX, Starfox, both used the FX chip which was a really nice 3D engine in it's day. Plus you had mode 7, it's safe to say that the SNES was the best 16-bit for 3D (I mean it had a version of Doom remember). The Megadrive version of Virtua Racing was excellent, using their own 3D trickery - it was a lot smoother than any 3D SNES game I've played (my brother still pines for it).

But the point of this topic is that Sony is gonna make a packet with their new handheld, even die hard Nintendo fans can't ignore the popularity of Sony consoles. So I find it funny how people can't see that, probably been squinting at their dimly lit thumb cramping headache inducing versions of Doom - j/k, I love Doom on the GBA.


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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 19:06 Edited at: 26th May 2003 19:07
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Like I said, Sony have a hell of a lot of capital to put into the PSP, and if they take the market, Ninty is dead.

Still, with a huge games catalog for PS1 and if Sony released an adapter (and I think that it IS possible to fit the PS 1 gear into a handheld), then they will have a good head start with next generation games. If Ninty were clever, they could design the next gen console to play N64 games, but knowing them, I doubt it.

Personally, the PSP can go screw itself, I won't be buying one for the games machine (maybe if it can play movies that would sway me). Ninty always have had the best games, and always will.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 26th May 2003 19:12
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Dont forget Nintendo has a new CEO, their policies are quickly changing. My guess is that the next nintendo WILL at least play GameCube games, if only for the reason that if they continue on with cd-like storage, it wont take a lot of modifying to let it play GC games. Also, Nintendo has already released a GBA player for the GC in Japan, so who know, a multi-console adapter anyone?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th May 2003 20:13
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Rob i've never got Quake to happily run on any anything under a p166+ (125mhz) mx ... and certainly wouldn't even dare to push 640x480 as the resoultion on those machines without a GOOD graphics card.

try to remember when Quake was first released the standard graphics card has 1mb of onboard ram and they weren't designed for ANY 3D Operations at all.
an S3 Trio64 2Mb was what i had which was probably about the best you could get on a home system back in '94 and on my Cyrix 150+ it just did not cut the mustard for running Quake.
it utilised the OpenGL card when they came out and Mmx too with patch 1.06 - before that the only way to really get 640x480 at a reasonable speed was on a PentiumPro 180Mhz.

it seems very shifty to me that you'd think that doom slows on the GBA but you think that Quake@640x480x8 was good on a p133 w/32mb ram

i don't think Nintendo have anything to worry about the PSpocket, i have the first one at home and it wasn't anything exactly interesting - Sony are just not good console developers, just the price was what was won the last console war they've really been feeling the pressure of this lastest epic against Microsoft and Nintendo.
personally i think the PSpocket is going to be make or break for Sony on the games market, especially through falling industry sales the GameCube which has been out the least time has sold the most units and titles for the units. its just the dwindling european takeup thats been worrying for them but as Ken says they're new CEO should start putting things right.

that aside i said Crystal Fantasty NOT FF:Crystal - they're very very different games

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Dazzag
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Posted: 26th May 2003 20:26
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Doom ran fine on a 386 with 16Mhz back in... erm... about 1992. And it ran like s**t off a stick when we tried it on the 486DX2's (66Mhz) in the Physics department (they had better PCs). And when I mean s**t off a stick, I mean running the demo that allowed it to run as fast as possible. Don't forget the original Doom only ran at like 320x200.

As to Quake. I thought the original (not GL - not quite so sure) used sprites for the enemies?

Anyhows, whatever. Search the internet. There is nothing about the GBA being above 16Mhz. Nothing. Theres quite a lot about it being 16Mhz, with a separate 8Mhz CISC chip (for backwards compatibility apparently) though.

Cheers

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th May 2003 21:20
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"it seems very shifty to me that you'd think that doom slows on the GBA but you think that Quake@640x480x8 was good on a p133 w/32mb ram"

Umm... not really. I don't "think" that Doom slows on the GBA, it does. And I just launched Quake again on a p133 /16mb RAM and it works fine - 25FPS-30FPS. On 800x600 is jerks down to 15FPS or less, and sometimes, as I said, WILL not run at all (crashes with some error or other)

"try to remember when Quake was first released the standard graphics card has 1mb of onboard ram and they weren't designed for ANY 3D Operations at all."

My S3 video chip has 2MB of onboard RAM (in the 133Mhz machine), with the 200Mhz machine having 4MB RAM.

"" Sony are just not good console developers, just the price was what was won the last console war they've really been feeling the pressure of this lastest epic against Microsoft and Nintendo. "

That is one aspect but the date was very important with both the PS1 and PS2, they got the "next gen" hardware out way in front of the others, hence Ninty's focus on getting their next main console out as close to the PS3 as possible.

"As to Quake. I thought the original (not GL - not quite so sure) used sprites for the enemies? "

No, all the enemies were polygons, Quake was the first game (IIRC) to use polygons for enemies instead of sprites.

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 26th May 2003 21:39
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Amstrad Achemedes processor was using.

It was actually the Acorn Archimidies that used to use the ARM processor (and then the StrongARM). Its a very fast and powerful processor.

Amstrad used to use Z80 processors (the same ones that were in the Spectrum).

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Red general
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Posted: 26th May 2003 23:19
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you really like your handhelds don't you? Well, what i am mainly looking forward to is the 3D renderering graphics (GBA is 2D and can only emulate 3D - so much for when they said it would have the abilities of the playstation). Imagine the possibilities of the 1.8GB optical disks in cartridge form.

Basically i can understand why people are sceptical. We don't need to be reminded of SNK's doomed NeoGeo Pockect [1998]. However with good marketing and the supposed power, it might be enough to topple Nintendo. We all know that it is possible, afterall all the old companies from the beginning of console making are no longer those who are the leaders of the field.


As I said, should be interesting to see how it turns out.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th May 2003 00:36
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i love my handhelds, Rob just seems to have some thing about disagreeing with absolutly everything i say ... bloody weirdo if you ask me.

and toady you know what i ment, god knows where i got Amstrad from, guess its just tiredness catching up but your right it was a bloody fast machine.
which is probably why IBM bought the technology a few years ago.

as for Nintendo Pushing thier next console before PS3... that is the biggest load of bull i've ever heard, because Nintendo themselves have noted there is NO R&D going on for thier next home console, they're focus is on the handheld market as well as their GC.
and Microsoft have also said although thier designing thier X-Box2 it is likely not to bare the name X-Box2 and because of recent grumblings from nVidia is being designed from the ground up which should be expected around 06/07

the PS3 is due out sometime next year, so really even if both companies were competeting for the same market nitché there is no way that Nintendo or Microsoft could 100% design a console capable of competeing again the Ps3 in only a matter of 15months, there is only so much possible and the bets would be that no one would buy it ... add to this EA have already said they will not be supporting the PS3 if it is released prior to 2005 because there was a major complain from thier larger development houses saying they ain't learning another new system already.

i mean within the past 2years they've had to learn the Dreamcast, X-Box, GameCube, GameBoy Advanced, Playstation2 ... the X-Box you could rule out because you can effectively code for a PC so they already knew most of the platform but still thats 4 platforms in 24months ... plus having to learn Shader Technology.
the games industry is reeling from trying to keep up with the technology and at it seems this year they're actually putting thier foot down and saying "oki, enough is enough we can't develop ever expanding games if you keep changing the technology on us."

and although yeah there isn't a shortage of coders or developers, the calibre required at the top and the skills of the new coders needed is just getting too great and too much for alot of people.
Although Cg has been well recieved as the next step, with Artists now HAVING to learn programming to a basic level just to use them and compete else learning brand new software and its quirks - Softimage for example is taking over because of its shader handling ... well there is also a downside to all of this advancement.

the programmers can't keep up, the hardware developers can't keep up, Sony are going to find themselves having won the race with no one around because they want to take the time to learn and use what we have first.

as for Quake, i find it hard to believe you with it playing fine at 640x480 at 30fps on just a 133mhz cpu w/32mb ram & 2mb SVGA card.

Quake wasn't the first game to use polygons just for enemies it was the first true 3D game on the PC ... you could argue that Elite was but remember it wasn't develop on or for the PC and textured polygons in Elite2 again not developed for the PC and was released after Quake

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Dazzag
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Posted: 27th May 2003 01:34
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Never said Quake was the first for enemies with polygons. Just thought I could remember something about it using sprites thats all. Was a long time ago.

As to true 3D, there was loads before Quake, just not many true textured ones. Wasn't Ultima Underworlde pretty nice if I remember rightly? And the game I remember being impressed about around Doom time was alone in the dark. But for the life of me I can't remember if it was textured or not.

And Quake worked fine on my 133 at 640x480. And I'm pretty positive it only had a 1 meg card in it at the time. Even at some high resolution it still managed to chug along (fair enough it stuttered a bit at the higher res - around 1200x1000 methinks). Once GL-Quake came along with my Voodoo1 though.. now that was a quantum leap.

And the GBA has a 32-bit ARM7TDMI RISC processor that runs around 16Mhz (some sites say 16.78Mhz).

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th May 2003 03:00 Edited at: 27th May 2003 03:07
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you guys are both wack as far as Quake goes, i remember playing on a 486dx4-120 it used to shudder along at 10fps that was with 128Mb EDO Ram & an Oxygen3D ISA-VL 4mb ... and trust me that was a serious peice of kit, and that was at 320x240, i could get 640x480 to run at an acceptable speed on a P166 mmx w/64Mb EDO w/S3 Trio64v2 Dx/Gx PCI 2mb and VideoLogic Apocolypse 4mb

but even my laptop i'm on right now with an 880Mhz AthlonMP w/512Mb DDR Ram & GeForce2 Go! ... i run QuakeGL on that i can use upto 1024x768x32 and even thats at 32fps - i've had 3rd party versions of QuakeGL and QuakeX do better, but the originals design just capped at p200mmx at 640x480 and was really optimised for PentiumPro.
and i've had alot of computers in my time that i've run Quake on to know what it is capable of, and anyone telling me that p133 was good enough for it and with a 1mb vga card ... i'm more likely to swollow that your some freaking Agent Smith come to whoop Neo's ass before i believe bull like that.
The engine through and through unaltered just isn't capable of what you guys are claiming...

and Quake uses NO sprites, everything is textured polygons ... and it was the first REAL 3D TEXTURED POLYGON GAME - EVER!
if it wasn't then i'm pretty sure there would've been alot of companies that would've protested that id software got an innovation award for it being the FIRST REAL 3D COMPUTER GAME.

Sure Elite was the first 3D game, it was also the first shaded polygon game ... but unlike Quake there were still 2D aspects for alot of things, lasers were calculated lines ... there were no REAL polygons it was all just clever point shading.

[edit-]
that aside ya know that even though the GBA has a 300Mhz processor, it doesn't have a Maths-CoProcessor or Floating Point Unit ... have you ever tried to create 3D Graphics without one?
the Maths CoPro in the 386 age and the FPU in the latter 486 are what have made 3D actually possible, you know that right?

for compatibility means they didn't add one to the GBA, that is quite an interesting fact i thought you might want to know ... and i'd love to see an Asm/C based computer game from either of you in 3D without using the FPU, MCP, or Mmx based Extensions - that would also include the GPUs without them you'll see that more Mhz doesn't automatically mean more power UNLESS you know howto use it.

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Ian T
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Posted: 27th May 2003 03:37
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Universal Media Disks? Are those the mini-CDs, or do they actually have the gall to try and use the term for their own product?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th May 2003 16:16
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i think it is just a MiniDisc but using DvD technology

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 27th May 2003 16:46
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"It was Nintendos idea first"

Actually it was my idea first, but I've already lost that law suit

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empty
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Posted: 27th May 2003 17:00 Edited at: 27th May 2003 17:01
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Quote: "
that aside ya know that even though the GBA has a 300Mhz processor, it doesn't have a Maths-CoProcessor or Floating Point Unit ...
"


Erm, the Gecko (it's an enhanced version of the PowerPC) has a floating point unit.

Ogres have layers.
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Van B
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Posted: 27th May 2003 17:42
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Did'nt we already decide that the 300mhz thing was nonsense?


Van-B

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