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Geek Culture / Interesting and Hillarious insight into a part of videogames History

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 17:33
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Picture the scene: Jaguar has been released, Saturn, Playstation and Project Reality (eventually to become N64) have only just been revealed at ECTS, the head of Atari is cr*ppin his pants... Here's a small clip from an interview with him:

"NG : In terms of system power, would you acknowledge that Jaguar isn't as powerful as PlayStation or Saturn?

Sam : No. Absolutely not. Jaguar is as powerful, if not more powerful than Saturn. That we are convinced of, from the technology that we've seen... The PlayStation, I must say, is a little, little bit more powerful in certain areas -- but not in others -- it's a little bit more stronger machine than Jaguar. A little, little bit. But Jaguar 2 will blow it away."

roflmao Poor guy didn't know what to do with himself and here's the full interview - its hillarious

http://strider.mjjprod.free.fr/toxic15/articles/tramiel.htm

That said, he has to have been stupid anyways, because when he bought out the seriously flagging Atari coorp in 1984, he gave away the rights to their only profitable area, Coin-op development!

Mind you, in history I suppose although the Jaguar Bombed it was still more successful than the 3DO, CD32, CDi, MegaCD, 32X, Virtual Boy and the other consoles that came and went in the weird and very misguided 6 months or so when the "Multimedia Revolution" was cursing the industry. It amazes me that "games" like Night Trap and Ground Zero Texas were seen as the "future" of the industry and cost over £3,000,000 dollars to MAKE let alone market...

I am only glad that that year was also the time DOOM hit the mass market and Ridge Racer hit the arcades, otherwise goodness knows what would have happenned!

Heres a point, considering how badly Atari marketted EVERY machine after the 2600, did you know that originally Nintendo asked Atari to Market and produce the NES in Europe and the USA?!?!?! I'm not sure I can imagine what would have happenned if they had taken that route, NES probably would have failed, Sega would have canned Master System, and Videogames may have dissappeared as a "fad" with "limited potential"
Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes, They got them hoppy legs & twitchy little noses,
And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
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BatVink
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 17:48
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Quote: "and Videogames may have dissappeared as a "fad" with "limited potential"


I doubt it, the market was already there, it was just a case of how big a slice everyone took. Because the result was a limited number of players in the market, it meant the victors had more cash to accelerate development.

We would have got there in the end. We could potentially be much further ahead, if there were only 2 players in the market with more cash (let's say, PC and Sony). However the price to pay would be more expensive hardware and games.

Thanks in advance.
All the Best,
StevieVee
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Van B
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 18:10
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Well, Atari can't market for toffee, but the Jaguar was a sadly underrated machine, it had the best version of Doom, and Alien V Predator was amazing on it. Considering that the PSX and Saturn came later, the only competition was the CD32, which was just an embarassment.

I admit it - I Love Atari, I loved my ST, and spend an absolute fortune on it. In fact - I just stuck STeem on my laptop and spend many a happy hour playing MegaLoMania and Oids and IK+. I detested the way Commodore went about continually re-releasing the Amiga. It was rediculous, they'd stick it in an awkward box - with no keyboard - then sell a keyboard seperately!. Psygnosis were about the only supporters they had. I honestly think the Jaguar caused a ripple in the console world, because it was the first console that could handle 3D at a decent rate - all the other consoles had to be better, unfortunately they were. I mean, how many consoles had release titles by a legendary shareware coding, yak bothering hippy?

We should all take a minute to remember just what Atari did for the industry, in fact - we should wonder if there would be an industry without them!.


Van-B

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actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 18:12
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And what would third party game products be without them...

Actually,we should thank Atari for sueing Activision and losing.

The bigger dog doesn't always win.

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The Game
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 18:14
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That was on the list of the 25 dumbest moments in video game history done by gamespy.I think it made the top 5.

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/june03/dumbestmoments/

I am the game and I want to play.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 19:47
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The Jaguar was a quality machine i had one and a CD32, they were both pretty quality ... the only problem was the marketing and support.

I mean games like Elite2 on the CD32 were cool, cept it was never though ahead and without a keyboard you couldn't do alot or easily (not being able to hyperspace was a good thing i remember being pissed off with) ... even switching weapons was a task and a half - but they never mentioned anywhere in the manual you need a keyboard.

Nintendo were bloody lucky with the N64 as it was the fans which carried that machine, there is no if-buts-or-maybes you can say about that because the only people who still own an N64 are Nintendo Fans.
Without that fan base, this closed developer & refuse to release things outside of Japan (N64DD/N64CD/64NET/etc...) - it was just a joke and the carry on of this train of thought for the GC has been damaging its chances.
If Nintendo weren't as big as they are you know they just wouldn't be competiting right now.

the lack of developers for a machines & lack of true marketing potential is just disaterous - so sad really ... just look at the Console revolution, it is obvious that noone involved with the exception of Sony went into that with the aim to become the dominant machines.

Atari thought thier competition market was so small and with just 2-3 known winner titles thought it'd sell, Amiga felt being the first 32bit machine and a huge back catalogue would win it for them, Panasonic felt M2 & NFS would do it for them, Sega thought that Nintendo were thier only competition & by adding a gimmic (VideoCD control) would win it for them, Nintendo felt just the pure power & speed of the machine would do it for them.

Niether Nintendo or Sega believed anyone else was a threat except each other ... Sony came in using Nintendo's own technology against them - marketed it right and grabbed themselves exclusive development of the first game which showed the industry that 3D wasn't just a pretty tool for FPS games but something which could add depth to the users perspective, with Tomb Raider becomming thier iconic game and the price being constantly dropped with the changes in the market to always keep it cheaper than competitors whilst haveing support for the C language & DirectX 3 libraries to allow easy development and the pure access to developer licenses.

It ment that although they have the same amount of good & bilge on thier machines with almost 3-4x the studios at thier disposal compared to the competition the good amount of title rose now because the ratio was different but they just had more available.
Plus the adaptation of gimmics suchas the Multi-Tap, ForceFeedBack, Analoge Controls, Linking Leads for additional machine, Upgrading leads from RF to Scart & then to DVi for increasing potencial customers, always getting atleast 5 development houses working on games to introduce thier new technology to make sure it became a standard which worked.

Sony had a gameplan from day one to take down the big boys, the new console isn't doing that because now Nintedo have worked on thier marketing and support - and with the Industries biggest monster Microsoft who are probably the best marketeer's and busniessmen on the planet the gameplans have had to change.

its funny really to have though that at one point in history there were 7 consoles on the market at the same time lol

PSx/Ultra 64/3D0/Jaguar/Saturn/NeoGeo/CD32
i'm sure there was another in a similar ilk to the 3DO but i dunno.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 20:43
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The main problem with Atari (like Commodore), is that they stopped advertsing, and didn't really sell machines as cheaply as they could have. Plus, their (Atari) Falcon machines never took off.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 21:49
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Commodore's problem wasn't advertising ... it was innovation, the A500 was a good innovation and true competition to the family Pc of the time - but they lacked the abilities to be cheaply upgraded and adapted, even adding harddisk space was a huge undertaking finacially and such... god forbid you wanted to add Ram and/or processing power.

thats actually the whole reason Amiga became financially unviable, companies wouldn't pay for machines they'd have to chuck out in 2-3years time and purchase entirely new rigs and the lack of proper Networking also probably didn't help - as for home users, the fact that games oftenly needed a ram upgrade which could cost upwards of £100 and need an expert to install without the potencial to harm tha machine ... once Amiga found that Nitché they just stopped development really.

just look at the A1200 and A600 home machines, they're power wasn't much more just featured SCSI HDDs which cost alot to upgrade if you wanted to ... no Cdrom support, infact Cdroms weren't available Amiga's until around '95-96 which was just truely shocking imho even then they were 1-2x affairs - with the PC using 8-16x at the time just prior to MAX & DMA techology was shocking to say the least.

Adapting to the graphical accelerator age was also just unbelievable slow and overly priced graphics cards just was insane.
Not to mention if you wanted to upgrade the OS you have to change the Kickstart Chip itself - Atari's Falcon and 2800's were just as bad technology wise.
Nice idea's but without that expanding abilities of the PC they just couldn't stand up even though they were more powerful.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 22:30
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I think without the NES existing, it would have seriously crippled the industry - simply because most third parties in the West had given up on making a profit from games until the NES, they had seriously lost faith after the two failed follow ups to the 2600 and the industry was exceedingly weak around 1984-6 "the videogame crash". The NES inspired Sega to try again after its SG-1000 was a flop and release Master System in the West, which, while never giving NES a run for its money, taught them a few lessons and made them a tidy profit so that they may release Megadrive. Without competition Nintendo wouldn't have released the costly SNES, and without the CD based machines released by Sega, Phillips and Commodore Nintendo wouldn't have felt it needed to compete, and started to develop Playstation - the rest is history.

I'm a big fan of Atari, and I especially love th 2600, Lynx and Jaguar. Doom, Alien vs Predator and Tempest 2000 on Jaguar are great, and there were some amazing PC ports, but basically the Jaguar was far, far, far outclass technically to the Saturn, Playstation and N64. The reason I found this interview so funny is his blind faith in a machine which really had no true future, and it was strongly predictable to anyone at the time. The Jaguar was the best of a bad bunch, beating Cdi, CD32, 3do etc. and probably had the longest list of decent games. Unfortunately it ws a bad time in the industry, where everything became about more technogy, higher prices and more pazazz, while the general public happily stuck with there perfectly adequate 16 bit machines.

Atari has made some wonderful games. In the late 70s early 80s it was top of the industry, then started releasing failures.
Nintendo has made some wonderful games. In the late 80s early 90s it was top of the industry, then started releasing failures.
Sega has made some wonderful games. In the early to mid 90s it was top of the industry, then started releasing failures.
Sony has made some wonderful games. I the mid 90s to today it was and is top of the industry, and even with stiff competition from Microsoft, Nintendo and Sega, still seems to be winning the console wars.

Personally I'm just waiting for Sony to start making some marketting mistakes and another company to take over again. It may be Microsoft, as they seem to be (slowly) learning from their mistakes and have infinite money. I would prefer it to be Sega or Nintendo. Atari isn't gonna happen as it is effectively dead in all but name. It'll be an interesting five or so years, I can't see sonys new "PSX" (nice confusing name there) machine and PSP being anythig but commercial failures, but I doubt it'll kill its chances with PS3. Oh well...

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes, They got them hoppy legs & twitchy little noses,
And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 22:51
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Quote: "Sony has made some wonderful games. I the mid 90s to today it was and is top of the industry, and even with stiff competition from Microsoft, Nintendo and Sega, still seems to be winning the console wars."


Sony are the only company facing falling sales, they're the only company making a an overall industry loss, they're also seeing all of thier companies actually deciding to develop for the other 2 systems.

Although Sony's console is okay, and has alot of support - the armchair gamer is calling for more and better graphics, something that the Playstation just can't provide.
Anyone at E3 would've seen the total collapse of PS2 based titles there ... its a little shocking but actually the whole console industry isn't what it was only a matter of 3years ago, there was a real rumble about how the PC's gamers would be pushed out in favour of these new Next Generation Consoles - and what seems to have happened in actual fact is they've made the PC Gaming Industry the strongest it has EVER been!

Sony's run ended the day the PS2 was rushed out of the door to finish off Sega because they knew they couldn't compete with Microsoft or Nintendo on a Level playing field, the PS3 & PSP are last ditch attempts at atleast hanging in there but to be honest they're already dead in this industry and they know it - that is the entire reason they're trying to get an upper hand in the handheld consoles ... if the PS3 ever sees the light of day is just anyones guess.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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actarus
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 23:07 Edited at: 13th Jun 2003 23:17
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-Sony's run ended the day the PS2 was rushed out of the door to finish off Sega

Yeah but that was worth it.

Modeling Tip of the Week:Keep away from the infamous frog dissection pose!
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 01:29
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I agree with everything you just said Raven Unfortunately though, even though sales are decreasing, by looking at hardware and software sales in ALL territories, PS2 STILL outsells all non handheld consoles by at least 3 to 1 I can't believe it but its there every month on Digi Its a case of Jo public wanting what his mates have got... Mind you in a sense the same has always happenned. Although I do think that the gaming circle is getting less and less enchanted with Sony and their shovelware approach, so I hope, like you said Sony is on the way out as a hardware manufacturer, and some of the few decent games for the system can spawn worthy sequels on newer, better and more honest software.

Act - Careful m8 there's more than a few Dreamcast diehards in here from what I've seen

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes, They got them hoppy legs & twitchy little noses,
And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 01:43
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lol... I never liked the Dreamcast from when it just a rumour when i were at college - it just never appealed to me even slightly, but so many people were like "oh its 128bit and Nintendo can't even come close to this thing" ... anyone else notice how Nintendo skipped 128bit and went straight to 256bit along with Mircosoft appearing in 256bit format
i mean it is kinda laugable that people are still hyped about the fact that the PS2 runs on 128bit, no-ones even mentioned the 256bit architecture of the GC or XBox - everyone was so quick to damn them even though they're technically superior and cheaper... the GC is Half the price of its competitors.

To be honest i don't understand why the GC isn't selling better with better rap, as the cosole is onle $120 & the games are only $45 - i mean christ the PS2 is $210 with games at $60-70 each... and most of them are total bildge.

Quote: "PS2 STILL outsells all non handheld consoles by at least 3 to 1"

you've missed the current sales reports haven't you Sam
PS2 is bottom of the league and has been for around 4months now, they're hardly shifting the bloody things anymore ... i mean notice how most shops are now doing so many package deals with them with say 4-6 games at the price of like $250 ... or that 2player bundle.
Retailers only stop selling a console on its own when its sales are down. The GC maynot have sold like 2million units per week, but its sales have been steady
And as soon as Microsoft knocked $100 of the price they started selling like hotcakes ... most people i know who have kept thier PS2's are people who don't generally game much, alot of mates ahev traded thiers in for XBox's - lol
The bugger might be a big but its got some corkin' games, there was a new one for the GC & XBox called Kungfu Movie or something ... truely classic title.
Kinda like Double Dragon but on a small gaming arena which you can destory and your suppose to be like doing this all for a Karate film or something - its such a fun little game.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 01:54
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They're still doing very well in the UK... At the moment its a fight for second place between the XBox (hurrah) and the GameCube (boo - cheap & tacky)...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 01:56
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don't you bad mouth the GC

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 02:00
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Yes I will...

Personally, I think it looks very cheap (yes, I know it is cheap), but it just doesn't look well built at all - especially the joypads. They look as though they'll break after 5 minutes of use. Do they use switches under the d-pad or just two contacts for each direction ?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 14:05 Edited at: 14th Jun 2003 14:10
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" At the moment its a fight for second place between the XBox (hurrah) and the GameCube (boo - cheap & tacky)..."

What ?! - I take it you've never brought any Ninty hardware. The construction is top quality, it feels like it too. I've played over 3000 matches of button-mashing Super Smash Bros, and about 40 hours of Metroid Prime and both still work perfectly, not a single problem with them. On my friend's PS2, the analog stick has gone rather loose, combined with the dead spot, makes it rather annoying. My GC on the other hand, is still as tight as the day I brought it.

Ninty's construction quality is definately as good as the XBOX or PS2, if not superior. The controller is also far more comfortable than either of the others, the buttons all feel right as well. The XBOX feels very unresponsive and weird, the buttons are all in the wrong places and the D-PAD sucks like hell. The S version is better, but its still awfull in comparison. The XBOX looks so goddam ugly as well, agreed, it is the most powerful and fully featured console by a long way, but I don't want to have to lay down a reinforced floor just to use it. The PS2 one is good, but not as good as the GC's controller.

Ninty stuff is always very well built, my friend dropped his GBA out of the top window of a double decker bus (don't ask how, people do stupid things), and it still worked, all that happened was that the screen cover popped off, a quick tab of glue later and it was great. Try doing that with a Neo-Geo or Wonderswan.

Anyhow, I, like anyone else, will tell you that I brought the console for the games - and lets face it, where else can you fight Star Fox vs Pikachu vs Link vs Game n' Watch Guy on an FZero track, whilst chucking bombs, hammers and Pokemon at the other people, all in lighting-fast or slowmotion-mode. It isn't a game of pure skill or fancy moves - but for pure, unadulterated fun, nothing beats it.

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Van B
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 16:23
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Hehe, I won't hear a thing against the Dreamcast, it's a ground-breaking kick-ass machine that put's the PS2 to shame in some areas. I mean, we want 4 controller slots, on every console that should be standard, but never Sony - 2 slots and an extra £30 if you want more. A DC, 4 controllers, Quake3 and Unreal Tourny is more fun than I ever had on a PS2. Did you guys know the DC has double the texture memory of the PS2?

Anyhoo - I'll bet you did'nt know that the Atari ST was the very first computer to have a CD-Rom drive?


Van-B

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 17:26
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No, never brought anything Nintendo - and looking at the joypads, I wont. It just looks cheap and rather fragile...

Apparently, the Dreamcast was a real pain to program for.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 17:35
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I haven't kept abreast of the most recent sales figures in Japan and the US thats true, but they were pretty stable for so long it got boring. The sales figures in Digi for the UK however still show PS2 far, far, faaaaar outselling GC and Xbox. I'm not happy about the situation, its just the way it is at the moment.

I may make myself unpopular by saying this but imho Xbox gamecube and PS2 are all hideous ugly designs of console I'd rather hide in my cabinet under the tv. Last last console I found asthetically pleasing was the cute lil ps1 Actually tho Nintendo machines have all been built very, very solidly, and the GC pad, whilst looking a bit weird, is the best pad I've ever used. Both official Xbox pads are awful tho, I tend to stickto third party controllers.

Dreamcast WAS difficult to program in native mode, being that it had very similar construction to sega's higher end AM boards, which are highly, highly optimsed but are a nightmare to many third party developers who haven't grown up with them. However using DCs Windows compatibility mode, it was a darn site easier, if less powerful. I still think DC was a better machine with more AAA quality games than PS2, and it was cheaper and it it had very decent internet playing QuakeIIIarena (much better than UT2k on Xbox live b4 the patch!) - pity Sega are awful at marketting and make so many stupid mistakes...

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes, They got them hoppy legs & twitchy little noses,
And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 18:30
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Quote: "No, never brought anything Nintendo"

... once you go Big-N you never go back hehee
The Console and controles don't look tacky to me or cheap, they look just like the Playstations to be perfectly honest - probably made from the same plastic. The only possible tacky point would be a standard yuckie blue they always show with all the colour.

I've got a Midnight blue & Platinum machines now they just look class ... you ever picked up a PS2 of X-Box, i mean christ comparied to the cube they weigh a tonne

Think the DC was a great lil machine, certainly didn't derseve to go under compared to the PS2. But still - ya know GC hehee best machine.
Oh has anyone seen Biohazard4 for it? all i can say is "JESUS CHRIST!" i though those kinda graphics were only possible with GeForce Hardware... damn that game doesn't just gave atmosphere, it truely is a game that finally marks the GC away from that "kiddie" console image that Big-N have tried to instill on it
(you know that is actually the reported rumour to why Rare was sold, because the games they had lined up weren't "kiddie" enough, how sick is that eh)

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 18:33
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The PS2 is OK, and I rather like the black / platinum GCs (the purple is ugly I agree). I agree that the DC was a good machine, and undeniably more powerful than the PS/2 in some areas, but it is a pity that Sega failed to market it well. Still, a lot of DC games have been ported to the GC which cheered me up

I think its quite neat how Sega and Ninty were rivals for years and now they work closely.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 18:40
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Quote: "but it is a pity that Sega failed to market it well."


I don't think they failed, the PS2 was just overhyped, and the back compatibility - ya know the DC just couldn't compete with the non-game playing users picking one up simple as a fashion item, and thats really what this new generation is more about.

Multimedia Machines rather than Games Consoles - ironic how the GC is the only REAL console on the market right now eh.
Though i think its amusing how Big-N & Sega are now tight as Jordon's dress's ... i mean Sony own 50% of Sega now, yet somehow along the way Nintendo has kinda pursuaded them to work almost exclusively - classic really and its good to see the two best console developers now against the evil Sony empire

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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empty
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 23:21
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Quote: "
Anyhoo - I'll bet you did'nt know that the Atari ST was the very first computer to have a CD-Rom drive?
"


Yeah, the days when Shiraz Shivji was Atari's chief engineer.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 23:25
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Heh, still got me Jaguar in my spare room somewhere. Think it's a bit dusty now (along with N64). Was pretty good at the time though, just never liked the controller. Clip on button pad thingies were a good idea though, just kept losing the buggers.

Slightly annoyed though that I didn't notice Argos dumping their GC stock. Apparently they wern't doing well in Argos stores so they decided to lower the price a fair bit. At a time when GCs were around £100 in most shops, Argos reduced them to £70. And when I bought my GBA-SP it had a discount of £30 on a GC (no matter where you buy it from). So would have cost £40. Essentially half the price I spent on my GBA (either of them). Rats.

Cheers

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 23:31
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Side tracking I know but Raven is Biohazard 4 in proper 3d, or does it still have the static backgrounds? I really thought the addition of proper 3d to Code Veronica helped a whole load to the atmos and playability (When I first saw that game running my jaw dropped )

Dazzag - same thing happenned to me mate. I also paid £300 for an N64 with Mario64, only for it to be reduced to 100 around a year later grrr Wicked game though, I owuld have sold a kidney to play that

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes, They got them hoppy legs & twitchy little noses,
And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 23:46
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its more a mixx now... i mean some areas are mostly pre-rendered however there is alot which is true 3D





though i would like to know what the hell is up with this guys hair and his fashion sense... i mean christ he needs to get rid of the girlie jacket.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Dazzag
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 00:05 Edited at: 15th Jun 2003 00:06
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Nah, I still haven't bought a GC. Am still engrossed with the GBA. Although I did do the same thing with Jaguar, N64, and PS2 (ie. buy them straight away). N64 cost me around £450 at the time with only Super Mario 64 and Turok (crap game, don't care what anyone says).

And before people slate me for playing the GBA when I could go out and buy a GC for cheaper; basically I missed the consoles of NES/SNES/Megadrive at the time as I (and me mates) considered them too childish. Jaguar was the closest to that sort of thing for us, but was mainly Atari ST/Amiga/PC. I kind of admit I was wrong now, as I am totally addicted to Mario games (should have realised with N64). And anyway I've totally gone off totally gorgeous 3D games for the minute. Not as much gameplay. Even LAN games of UT2003 don't float my boat as much as I thought they would. Still might all change when Doom 3 raises it's head. But more like UT2004 (my friend assures me) which when released will have the assault mode again!!!!!!! (please God, let it be true!!!!!!). Should have realised though that GBA would enthrall me, as I had a total Speccy upbringing.

Cheers

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 00:30
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Quote: "Turok (crap game, don't care what anyone says)."

thank god... i was begining to believe i was the only one who thought it was
It's fun, but it ain't no Goldeneye

as for Doom3 - that is a sore subject at the moment i'm personally pissed at id Software for what has happened ... and i don't think we'll be seeing a PC version now. grr!

Hey Dazzag you seens the new Resi Evil for the GBA - bloody awesome hehee, i never missed out on the 8/16bit gens as i was like 11-12 when they hit, childish was my game and there was nothing better (still isn't) than Super Street Fighter2 with 2players on a Snes - sorry dont' care what anyone says the new versions just arn't even close to it.

but you know you don't have to miss out on the 8/16bit gens... alot of places now stock older systems, like the GameStation franchise in the UK - they have stores nationwide, and sell everything from the NES to the GC Developer - its so awesome you can go in there with £25 and come out with an old system with like a handfull of games
Sod trying to relive the era vicariously through the GBA, just by the real dang things hehee

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Dazzag
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 00:53
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Turok was ok to begin with, but it was no Quake. Most annoying thing was that enemies respawned when you went back to a location, didn't die if you bombed them from afar (apparently because they hadn't "beamed" in yet... sheesh...), and "beamed" in from out of nowhere. Utter rubbish compared with Quake and the like. And it cost £70 at the time. Goldeneye was really good though (the only 1st person game on a console that I've ever really liked).

Don't tell me Doom 3 is going X-boxy only. Grief. Still haven't bought an X-box 'cos it looks pretty bad (exterior design). And I haven't played a console first person game that I thought wouldn't be better on a PC. eg. grown up resolutions (even with my big TV, resolution won't be above 600x400 without interlacing. And even then 800x600 if I remember rightly) which are necessary for serious 1st person shooter gaming, stupid control methods (although plugging a mouse and keyboard into a console might change my mind - although it is then a PC really), and the lack of ability to have a football game playing at the same time. Picture in picture TV modes just don't cut it, and a second TV messes up my lounge. Cry.

Res evil on a GBA? Nice. Will look out for it. Actually all I can play currently is Kirby. And not the main game, but the air grind bit.... too addictive...

Nah, have too many wires to get more stuff (N64 is plugged into one of my old PCs for example via a TV card). Already using up more juice than a small town. GBA suites me just fine. Although the GP32 does look interesting...

Next thing I want to do is download a Spectrum game pack and load that into the GBA (have a 256Meg linker). Have heard reports that one Speccy emulation pack can handle 900 Spectrum games on one 256Meg cart. Thats 900 games on one cart. Grief. Just to get that into percpective a bit; I had around 500 games on the Spectrum over the space of about... oh.... about 7 years or so. They took up an entire cupboard drawer (quite a big one too), and that is taking into account that only about 100 were originals. 400 or so were on C90 cassettes (ie. loads of games on one tape). Ahem. And each one took around 4 or 5 minutes to load (Neverending Story 128k took around 15mins I think) at the time.

Heh, did anyone else become almost like drug dealers with Speccy/C64 tapes back in school? Does getting a copy of Cybernoid to some unknown guy for a copy of LOM, so you could give LOM, plus Batty, Fist, and Impossiball to another mate, just so you could be the first (well second) to have Doomdark's Revenge? Not that you were that bothered, but you knew many people (including the one who refused to give out Trailblazer for ages) that would die (as in release lots of games) to get their hands on it. Sigh. Those were the days.

Ah... then there was the multi-loaders that didn't actually crash your machine when they buggered up on the load. Bubble bobble was a favourite. Took 3 different tape players at different times and sound levels to load that one. Took around an hour to load. Was worth it though cos it was awesome.

Cheers

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Rob K
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 00:54
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DOOM 3? Who cares? - Half-Life 2 will crush D3, sure D3 has nice shadows, but the game is not a leap forward like HL2, D3 is an old-school shooter, it does nothing new. HL2 on the other hand defines innovation, just look at the vids, it just looks like so much FUN!

Resi 4 is largely 3D yes, I've seen vids of it and it certainly isn't a cheap pre-rendered background like in certain FF games.

Turok sucked indeed. Personally I didn't like Goldeneye as a game, but I am greatful for the fresh face in brought to the genre.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 01:02
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I know it goes against just about everyone these days, but I wasn't so taken up Half-life. Don't know why. Was probably just bored by then. Still played it a hell of a lot. Just wasn't quite as satisfying for me as Doom 2 was originally. Thats not to say I wasn't really impressed by it. Just didn't blow me away like Doom or Quake did originally.

On the other hand, when it comes to more thinky thinky in your shoot-em-ups, I preffered the assault modes from UT. Probably the best multi-player shoot-em-ups I have played since the original Doom.

Cheers

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 02:18
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The new Half-Life just doesn't excite me even slightly... past the new graphics, which are mostly effects you can already download from cg.com and the physics system which is just Karma 1.3.0

after all that i've not really seen anything that really excites me about it ... the storyline is a carry on but in the same ilk to the first, so only minimal RPG style interaction, plus all the animations are bloody motion capture (bloody stuff is destorying the number of actualy animators out there i swear to god , cheating barstewards).
At the end of the day from what i've seen and heard its just HL with a new Finish, i'd of expect alot more - perhaps NON-Linear missions. And the Multiplayer aspect is supposidly going too.

Doom actually enthrawls me not for the graphics but it actually has a bloody good story line - although yeah your essentially still shoting anything in sight, you have free run of Phobos Base meaning you can go anywhere at anytime, the new BSP has been quoted to put CSG & GeoMod to really look like the hacks they really are ... not to mention i really wanna kill the entire crew who feature as main characters in the game

I don't doubt that HL2 will be good, but my money is down on it being too bloody samey to the original (not unlike thier addon packs so far) ... maybe id aren't doing anything new for the genre as such, but for them it is a completely new area actually haveing a strong story based game. But i have odd tastes in games it seems lol

It's actually amusing how that even after 20years of games, people are still making them linear point A -> B ... the only real exception was/is GTA isn't it - sure there is a structure to the missions, but the order you did them in and what possible happens during them is never certain
And i think the new Doom will also push forward the genre once again from being just very basic stuff to something you can truely play again and again without the story getting boring.

I mean Unreal2 was bloody awesome, but once you've played it once ... kinda looses that appeal to want to play it again - ya know

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Dazzag
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 02:45
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Yeah, for me Half Life was too linear. Seemed to be quite a lot of walking down a corridor, shooting a monster, walk down another corridor etc. Fair enough if you disagree, but it didn't feel as "free" as other games. And as to the interactivity, I agree with Raven on that one.

My main thing about Doom though (which not even Doom 2 could quite re-create) was the level designs. They were pretty spot on, and the increase in difficulty level seemed perfect. That and the graphics. I remember being pretty amazed by Alone in the dark, then being jaw dropped by Doom a couple of days later. Heh, used to walk around with like 10 disks or so in my pockets (original PD un-registered version) to install Doom on "virgin" machines in our Uni. In the end everyone played it (that or Minesweeper) and 99% of machines ran it. Ah, the golden years...

Cheers

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 03:39
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lol... yeah i remember similar with Elite2 and the Amiga's in School - hehee me liked the A600 having HDDs
The teachers were so stupid, we'd say we were learning about physics within a vacuum - couldn't quite pull it off when your in a dogfight hehee, but most other screens we were "learning about planetry creation and plasuable system developments" or "understanding an ever changing economy to learn about how the stock affects prices of current items availability" hehee ... man we have like 1,001 reasons and before you say anything about the explainations i ended up going to a boffin' school - personally i wanted to go to Kings Langley with my mates, BUT Nooo, my parents thought the highest education school was best for me :: groans ::

Doom2 was really more just an extension just to add things to shoot at, i mean doom was done in a way with the levels actually well though about - Doom2 was just "lets see how many levels we can get onto a disk" (215 isn't a bad score though for 4months of dev lol)

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Rob K
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 12:39
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I will certainly be buying HL2

I think you missed the biggest aspect of it though - have you played Team Fortress, Counter-Strike or Natural Selection?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 13:54
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yeah i have Rob... Team Fortress ain't that much fun, Counter-Strick is just boring and i kinda liked Natural Selection but i doubt they'll have the Commander aspect.

and Rob - Opposing Force has that kinda aspect too, to be honest i found it was a one trick pony - because under the very slightly extended character interaction it was still essentially the same boring game and story underneath.
I'm not saying i'm not gonna get HL2, but its hardly making me cream my pants lol

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 17:12
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Euch the first Turok was ridiculous, you could only see like 6 foot infront of you!

The Resi 4 shots look cool, appart from the dude whats up with him? lol

If DOOMIII is Xbox only I'll be not happy, I don't really like FPS on console

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes, They got them hoppy legs & twitchy little noses,
And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
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Rob K
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 18:21
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You cannot play an FPS without a mouse.

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Van B
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 19:41
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Nah, you just gotta practice on the pad that's all - takes a lot of getting used to, but I get along fine with console FPS's now. Personally I'd rather play split screen co-op Ghost Recon on the X-Box than anything on my PC - they've really simplified the controls and everything makes sense, it's just great fun to play. I'm not a fan of online gaming, too many ego's and too much hassle - I like to mock my victims while sitting next to them.

I did'nt mind Turok, because it was smooth and the graphics were pretty good, compared to FPS games on the PSX at least. Goldeneye was awesome, there's not many games that make you spend money on more controllers just to play multiplayer.


Van-B

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Rob K
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 20:40
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OK, let me rephrase that - you CAN play an FPS with a pad, but it is far more accurate with a mouse.

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 00:34
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I prefer a mouse and keyboard layout every time for fps, the only console fps I've ever really got on with was Goldeneye.

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes, They got them hoppy legs & twitchy little noses,
And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 01:32
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Yes, its very easy with a keyboard and mouse - with a joypad is just too hit and miss, being rather inaccurate...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Dazzag
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 01:56
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Yep, once you get the hang of ASDW keys then there is no going back. Consoles just seem to be a little out of control to me, and not accurate enough. I think Goldeneye cleverly avoided this by having a lot of sneaky bits. ie. less quick movement needed. Works well. And multiplayer on a single console is laughable. Already 10 year old game resolutions are reduced to half, or even a quarter of their size. If you are playing 4 player on a PCX2 then it's probably around 300x200 each. Tops (isn't high res playstation 600x400 on UK machines?). Even if you have a big screen it is not the best, esp for far away stuff. 2 player Time Crisis 2 is laughable annoyingly.

Chees

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Shadow Robert
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I know this isn't on a console, however there was a controller released by Logitech called the 3DOrb - Gameplay gave it away free when you bought HL Generations, after a friend decided to acidentally give away my previous copy of the game i though "yeah, hell why not"

it was certainly one hell of alot easier to contol HL with it than a mouse (back then i only had a Serial Ball though) ... and my newly hacked up nFinity Pad is certainly also pretty cool for FPS titles.
The Trackball makes it so easi to move your view around freely without worrying about it returning to centre, so you can actually keep a lock when strafing better. And the hacked N64 3DStick certainly makes creeping/walking/running alot simpler to achieve.
R Tigger button for Attack, other L Trigger for Attack2, R Shoulder for Couch and L Shoulder for Jump certainly made HL & JK2 alot of fun
my drivers are poop though right now lol, they keep crashing windows when you press more than 6buttons or use the 3DStick & Trackball for long periods at a time.
figured people like my Bro would move thier controler around when they're excited or trying t do something (i wish i understood why they do that) ... but just to stop the Trackball fro doing a freespin when you just move there is a little rubber thing, you can still freespin a little (around 750° i've got it upto) but it stop it from moving withoug really being touched

though most controllers really arn't upto the task of whant an FPS needs.

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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 03:13
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MGS3 will kick D3 and HL2 anyday babeeeey!!

1. Its not linear like HL (true), with all the new great level design (heck! its japanese production!)
2. Its not old school "see something moving & kill em all" like Doom (true)

If there's anything low about it, its still definitely better than those 2

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Shadow Robert
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lol... HL2 isn't AS linear this time as HL, but is still pretty much linear gameplay as you'd expect (its the rage right now though)
and Doom3 isn't shoot anything that moves, its a heavy story driven game this time ... think Resident Evil in space but with it being less of a pointA->pointB affair, more like you have several objectives and you can do them in any order, but it will change what the others will have in store and thier difficulty.

MGS3 though, i dunno - i've still not heard anything favourable from my mate about it yet, and he loves MGS&MGS2 which is a worrying sign cause i hated with a vengace MGS2.

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Mnemonix
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I personally do not like FPS() on consoles at all. One of the best FPS games i ever played on console was doom(snes & psx). If DoomIII is xbox only i personally will go to texas(i think ID is based in texas) and kill all 18 of the project workers and John carmack .

FPS games have a good sense of control on the pc. That is why i like them so much. My favourite atm on the Pc is Hitman cn 47. Second comes battlefield 1942. I am considering buying counterstrike but i have never played it before. Any opinions?. And Rob k, do not badmouth doom plz while i is around.

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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 06:04 Edited at: 16th Jun 2003 06:05
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My vote of best FPS on console (perhaps the only one that 1 like) is Halo. - (*on that note, I can't wait to play Master Chief again in Halo 2! ) Though James Bond had it, still the 4 simultanoues screen in one TV set of Halo plays better because of the backing of its storymode, if u played it from beginning to end & all the levels from being at a noob level, all the waaaaaay to the end of the Legendary level.

As for Counterstrike, I say the best FPS for PC. Hah!
Okay okay, so after this everyone is gonna bomb me with their own opinion of a better FPS game for PC, but this is my score for my vote on Counterstrike; it simulates real life crime fighting on terrosism.

U get the feel of holding a realistically M16 *cough*model*cough* rifle to go all out on a hostage situation. And dun forget those smoke grenades & flashbangs to simulate ur assault style of a SWAT force. Coming on sniping, the variety of sniper rifles of todays *version* are available for the buying and taking through the game.

Heck, though it doesn't *purposely* intended to influence kids to join terrorists clans, it still provide the fun factor of the player being able to choose to play as a Terrorist, *just for the fun of the game*. [there are lots about it on previous games also ppl, so dun start a flame posts!!] U will get the thrill when u snapped on ur AK-47 to eliminate those *good guys* who wanna disable the bomb that u've planted earlier!

All these and much more are all my opinions towards "realism of todays combat style in fighting crimes and terrorism", (not like Quake, or Hexen, etc etc) not based on:

1. Awesome graphic (i luv it, u just check out screenshots from most websites to get the feeling)
2. The Physic - dun nobody ever start with this, i was not talking about it!
3. Weapons types - noooo, its got no such thing like a plasma cannon or a planet destroyer, its all good ol' silver bullet piercing into the bloody pumpin' heart

Waaaarrghahahahahhaha!!! DIE YA WORTHLESS MAGGOT!! DRINK FROM MY DESERT EAGLE!!!!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Shadow Robert
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you know Halo and Doom3 have a few things in common...
we're all waiting for the PC versions, and both have been finished a good while.

And i wouldn't be surprised if the current news was right and Doom3 goes the way of Halo - i don't want to bloody wait for Halo2 just to be able to play on the PC, just damn'd ridiculous ... I followed that game for 2years of its development, and i've been waiting another bloody year whilst all the XBox users have loved it to see it passed up time and time again with another lame excuse after another of why it isn't released.
To make matters worse there is a DvD of the bloody game at Bungie sitting in a draw that was completed 4months before the XBox release, just waiting for the day that PC owners will finally get it - but my money is down on that it will NEVER see the PC light of day.

I'm completely sick of Microsofts whole "buy everyone in sight" policy right now ... so many bloody good PC games ripped for XBox users delight - screw those loyal fans who've followed the development for its entire lifespan.

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