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Geek Culture / Half-Life 2

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Dave J
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 11:30
Surprised this hasn't come up yet (if it has, I didn't see it lol) but has anyone seen the 25 minute long HL2 demo from E3? It's bloody amazing and although the zip files is a huge 500mb download it's well worth the wait. I believe you can find a download at Fileplanet and Gamespy, and for us Aussies, Telstra Game Arena is also hosting it so it won't count to our Bigpond limit.

Anyway, the demo shows some absolutely beautiful physics effects and destructible levels, similar to the Geomod engine but rather then just deforming the terrain in chunks the HL2 engine will realistically shatter wood and different materials. The AI is simply brilliant, there is one scene where Gordon barricades a door shut, the enemy tries it once (you see the door rattle and try to open), after finding out it can't get in, it looks for another route and shoots through a nearby window. Gordan then takes cover and the AI instantly looks for another alternative route again, this shows how there's no messing around with AI forgetting about a player because it can't see him. The capabilities of the engine seem to be unmatched by any other game yet in every aspect and I'm positive Half-Life 2 itself will be fantastic.

For anyone who hasn't seen this movie you're really missing out on what looks like a revolutionary game.
"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 12:28
i've had a chance to play a beta since the vid... unfortunately thats about as good as it gets - it amazes alot of people, but trust me it doesn't seem quite as impressive once you get past the graphics.

Eric T
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 14:01
raven,
was the game play alot like the original? cause thats what i'm hopin on.

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Dave J
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 14:03
It wasn't really the graphics that amazed me, it was mainly the physics and how you could shoot down the barrels and they'd fall killing the enemies lying beneath. Basically how interactive and vibrant the world looks in the movie is what impressed me, is it still that good in the version you played?

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 15:24 Edited at: 8th Jul 2003 15:25
raven:you seen to have it in for this game? if it plays like Half-Life 1 that you can`t complan about the game play un-less the graphics are so good it runing a 4FPS.

--Dr 0--


You mean like a book?
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 16:03
yeah it does play TOO much like the original... i would go as far to say that they haven't changed the routines for them even slightly.

you think the physics are amazing then obviously you've never played Unreal2 - the physics is IDENTICAL, anyone who's programmed with Karma will tell you they've simply used the engine basically. They didn't even bother realtime scripting soft-body objects really disappointing to notice non of the cloths move realistically to the environment.

and the level designs aren't exactly any much of an improvement, the new BSP is amazing but thier use or lack of innovations in the level design are just truely disappointing.
you'll come away from it thinking you've just played HL with updated graphics and effects... and don't expect it to play on a slow system.

my AlthonXP 1200+ w/GeForce4Ti 4600 ran it at 60fps at 640x480x32 with full options. i mean yeah thats alright for most, but as really i've noticed alot of bug on Radeon Cards and the SiS 315 ... by the looks of it just like HL it's being released before its ready.
i honestly don't think they understand the shader systems nor the karma physics ... and don't expect an improvement on other fronts over HL either (alot of Mod developers are gonna be disappointed)

i guess i came off play testing my own title to it for a while, and people might be a little worried at this title in other Dev companies - my advice is don't be ... if you want a title be scared of Jedi Academy from Raven Software - the brand new control system and skeletal system, now that title I'M scared of going up against!

gonna be some tight few months, but after seeing and playing both Doom3 & HL2 all i can say is they're made to play head2head against Unreal2 ... anyone who's played that will probably understand
they ain't bad, just don't worry about the hype

Rob K
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 17:13 Edited at: 8th Jul 2003 17:16
Have you got the URL Exeat?

Quote: "yeah it does play TOO much like the original..."


Ignoring the fact that you haven't actually played it yet, HL2 was far more innovative than anything else on show. Halo 2 and Doom 3 are nice, but they don't provide anything new, HL one of very few games where the engine really has been designed to facilitate more interesting gameplay. (anti-grav gun... mmmm...)

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 17:19
and next to Unreal2 the innovations are about as innovative as creating a brown bread sliced loaf when there is already a white bread one on the market.

and it plays identical to HL, you could achieve some of the new things in the old engine - infact alot of modification games did (if you bothered to play in the community)

for the hyped i'd of expected better ... ya'll all be sorely disappointed if you think it is upto the hype, seriously so.

Dave J
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 17:43
Well when I played Unreal 2 it didn't look as if the physics were as good as it, maybe because they didn't use them to such as an extent but never-the-less I wouldn't mind if it were exactly the same as Unreal 2. Unreal 2 was extremely short and I was left wanting more so even if it has already been done, I'm satisfied.

Link:
http://www.fileplanet.com/files/120000/123983.shtml

Also, Jedi Academy didn't look too flash to me. I'm a hardcore Star Wars fan and the fact that 90% of the people in the trailer were holding either 2 lightsabers or a double-ended lightsaber wasn't very appealing. Just because Anakin held 2 at once for like 5 seconds doesn't mean everyone should, that's just my personal opinion though. Sure, it'd be cool to fight with 2 but it just doesn't seem 'right'. That's just a personal quirk of mine.

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Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 17:48
yes Unreal2 is a better engine then HL-2.but there is a lot more to Half-Life then just it engine.when HL one came out it whas not the best look engine out but play a lot better the levels felt real,the weapons felt real it was a lot better then Unreal or Quake.that hand levels white where long cordoors full of zombes and big gun that fire green lasers white too must recoil and cross hires that fill the screen.

like i send there a lot more to Half-Life then just it engine.

--Dr 0--


You mean like a book?
Justin Timberlake N Sync.
On what he read this year that he most liked.
Rob K
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 17:56
Quote: "and next to Unreal2 the innovations are about as innovative as creating a brown bread sliced loaf when there is already a white bread one on the market."


It was good while it lasted (as Exeat says, it is short), but it really only a a finely tuned realisation of the current FPS format, hardly innovative. The storyline always was Unreal's strong point, but there is nothing innovative in terms of gameplay. This in much the same way that Halo 2 for example, takes the Halo formula and perfects it.

Quote: "yes Unreal2 is a better engine then HL-2."


Graphically maybe, but as far as physics go, I'm not so sure.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 19:09
Quote: "Graphically maybe, but as far as physics go, I'm not so sure"


they both use almost identical physics engines, neither optimised (or used well, hang out in the Karma forums and you'll find this out VERY VERY quickly)

as for Jedi Academy graphics... Graphics aren't what make a game, if thats all you want to go on then - yes HL2 will be your first choice as it does look stunning. But they haven't really evolved anything else, you play JK3:JA and you'll just think "damn" the action is TOO fast to be worried about the graphics and speed is paramount in it.

They've extended all of the combinations, all you have to think is Tekken or DoA in full freedom 3D with Jedi Powers thrown in for good measure.

just because my main area i work on is graphics doesn't mean this is what i'll always value in a game as the best feature... you have to combine these in a way that still makes the game playable and only add features to enhance the gameplay - something that HL2 sadly just doesn't do.
as i've said its more like an extension or upgrade for HL than enhancing an already good forumla ... something that alot of fans were pissed off with the first on was the ULTRA linear story.

thier new BSP format (as i have the copy of SoftimageXSI 3.5 Exp & plugins you get free) is just outstanding in its detail and setup ... however the problem is there is no exploration of this.

The worlds appear so free, but you find out that running around the complex's your not able to turn back and go through another section or explore - you have to unlock each area... progress the story in a specific order. It would've been so much better if the store was more in exclusive of a linear path and you could do things in several ways. Like there is a bit where you accidentially turn on a few portals to this new alien world which is a another subspace world... and so creatures start pouring out. You can't shut it off until you've killed enough of them. I mean really if they're going to take steps backward like that whats the point in all the new toys?

Rob K
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 19:24
Raven, you haven't actually played HL2, so I don't understand how you can make these assertions with any confidence. If it really was as poor in the gameplay department as you make out, it wouldn't be E3 game of show this year, and wouldn't have been acclaimed by Edge, PC Gamer, and just about every magazine and website out there.

Quote: "something that alot of fans were pissed off with the first on was the ULTRA linear story."


You mean you were pissed off by it. Normally I would complain about a linear story, but for Half-Life, it wasn't a problem, it made for lots of stunning set pieces and scenarios.
Defeating the giant tenticles whose only stimulus was sound, was one of the most exciting scenarios of any game. Ditto for the railroad levels and hunting the gargantua [sp] and... I could go on for a long time.

"and only add features to enhance the gameplay - something that HL2 sadly just doesn't do. "

Again, you haven't played the game, so how can you say with any confidence how well the features are used in the game, knowing Valve, the physics engine will be used extremely cleverly, and so will the mesh deformation-supporting engine. HL2 engine is great exactly because its features are designed to benefit gameplay, rather than just looking great.
Plus you have the AI code, which will be excellent, which was a highlight of the original game, and you still have occassional scripted sequences to make for entertainment.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but I'd be interested to note why it differs from all the gaming magazines and websites that I know of (for HL1, under reader reviews on one site, out of 500-odd, I only found one that was critical (as in below 8 as a score), and that was because his graphics card couldn't handle the game).

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Ian T
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 20:20
Even assuming that Raven is telling the truth about playing the beta, I'm going to trust the boys at Gamespy, who were extremely positive about it. They said the physics were absolutely groundbreaking, and I'll stay with that opinion until I have good reason to believe otherwise.

--Mouse

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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 22:32
Raven,
Have you played Half-life 3 yet?
LOL! Your too much. I get many laughs from reading your posts. Thanks for that

WOLF

HOOOWWWLLL!!!
Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 22:42
ever if Raven has play it,we can`t give a fare opieon un-till we play it to.

so we can`t say if it a good or bad game un-till more then one of us have played it.

--Dr 0--


You mean like a book?
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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 00:06 Edited at: 9th Jul 2003 00:06
'Have you played Half-life 3 yet?'

I should bloody hope not or he's a time traveler

--Mouse

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Redmotion
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 01:19 Edited at: 9th Jul 2003 01:25
Actually, heres a question... Has anyone played a game by Raven yet?

That would be really clever.... (I havent seen a single screenshot) - Sorry Raven, but you keep knocking HL2...I hate hype but I really hope this lives up to it - Not like Matrix 2...

Thing is when HL2 comes out it will be the most advanced FPS on the market - unless of course Valve are stringing everyone along. We can all talk about current games in development having superior tech but they wont be out for at least 6 months 2 a year. So HL2 is probably going to be state of the art.

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Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 01:36
there is a retro game by Raven but it did not win any thing and i never played it.

You mean like a book?
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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 02:47
I think Raven has said he has some huge product that'll be really great when it comes out. Says he's got many tens of thousands of lines of code done.

*waits for evidence*

--Mouse

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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 04:03
Quote: "as for Jedi Academy graphics... "

What are you talking about? No one said anything about Jedi Academy's graphics. I talked about how it didn't look faithful to Star Wars but other then that Jedi Academy hasn't been mentioned at all.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 04:17
Valves incredible development team, 5-6 years of coding and refining and their track history/record in the FPS arena vs. Ravens opinion on a game he's never even played the release code version of (if any).

Damn.. such a tough choice knowing which horse to back

Dunno about you guys but everything I've seen of HL2 has had me hooked for months and I can't wait for it to arrive. I'm quite sure it'll piss all over the eye-candy that was Unreal2 with something the original HL had that no other FPS superceeds it in - atmosphere.

Cheers,

Rich

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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 04:42
Well spoken ...

I would argue that SS2 had more atmosphere, but that's a different topic .

I would, however, bet that Thief 3 is gonna be equally atmospheric to HL2. Damn, that game looks nice.

We shall wait and we shall see .

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 06:01
yeah well fine believe what want... just don't bitch when you find out that its just too close to HL for comfort.

everything is just finness and show

just go over to http://www.mathengine.com and checkout the forums, i'm sure thier "ground breaking" physics will be shattered in second there ... as i said they don't even have soft body physics in there which AS they are using karma is totally unforgiveable.

if you want a fantastic game for physics Cambridge Studio's Ghost Hunters ... on the PS2 of all things has far better physics than HL2 does. Its all just hype,if you can't see the wood for the trees then i feel sorry for you.

it'll be just like HL for you, you'll play it once, think "aww that was fantastic" play it again - suddenly you can't be arsed to get past the first scene.

Eric T
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 10:56
hell, in fPS's i can't wait for Duke Nukem Forever, thats gonna be some fun sh*t there(never found a boring DN game). although i don't like the release date, When its done.

Opinions are like a$$holes, Everybody has one.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 11:03
lol the title is apt though... i mean we have been waiting for it for like ever
May 2000 was its original release date - the 3DRealms guys don't do things in half do they

Eric T
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 11:10
you know i've seen it preveiwed 3 times in one mag, which shows how many times they've pushed back the date, and now with the RD of When were done, makes you wonder if there doing any work at all.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 14:53
I know, why don't we all join together to develop some physics based commands/functions dll that will allow for high speed - semi-acuratte calculations like the mathengine? Don't ask me! I wouldn't know where to start... Gravity, Velocity, rigid or soft properties assigned to meshes and objects so they 'squish' when they come into contact with rigid bodies. Bit like procedual animation in Maya. Volumes that create no gravity or effect other objects like water...Some sink some float depending on "material" or "weight" settings. Obviously all fake (not real) but realistic physical effects...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 15:16
perhaps cause i'm already working on it... using Mathengine Karma 1.3.0 as the base

Dave J
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 15:53 Edited at: 9th Jul 2003 15:55
Perhaps because Lee has already planned such commands to exist within DBP. Although he also mentioned that they would cost a set fee to purchase (like the enhancement pack for DB), albeit Rich says upgrades won't cost a thing. Guess we'll have to wait and find out.

Also for DN: Forever, take a look at the trailers for it from E3 '98 and E3 2000. It looks like they've redone the whole thing for the second one and it wouldn't surprise me if it looks completely different again next time we see it.

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Rob K
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 17:43
@Raven

The website http://www.mathengine.com is down. Are you sure the URL is correct?

I wouldn't be surprised if DBS charge for a physics pack, but that looks like it is a long way away.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 19:40
IC Cave seem to be messing about with this too:

http://www.iccave.com/Old/Downloads/index.htm

http://www.iccave.com/Old/Downloads/Masterclass_Archive/index.htm

There seems to be a lecture on Game Design here too..wonder what they say...

Dual athlon 2000 MP - 1GB ram
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It is too late now..BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PLAYING ATTENTION.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 19:49
the url is correct the site is just down right now...
probably another server hack from someone trying to get it for free again - they've been having alot of that recently, they have a fail-safe on it (gotta love Windows Server 2003)

i've asked for some information from Lee so that i can incorporate my TPF DLL better - i hate having the multiple object formats, i just wanna be able to have the player load thier object with a single commands like load karma object "player.dko",1 and it'll load the object data into the DBO slot and setup data ties within the DLL's memory allocation.

infortunately right now this is the code to achieve the same thing

load object "player.x",1
make karma object 1,1,"player.kat"
set karma skeleton on 1

which might only be 2 extra lines, but anything you don't load using this method won't be taken into account.
add to this you can as good as double the memory requirements... not to mention i wouldn't mind also adding functions like

make karma matrix 1,1000.0,1000.0,10,10

and it'd make a DB matrix but pointer to it... i've gotta play with the global structure more and i'm sure there must be a way to effectively grab the pointer to the data i require from the instance, but i've not been able to find a way to actually retrieve the vertex buffer where the actual data is stored using them

Richard Davey
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 04:02
"albeit Rich says upgrades won't cost a thing."

Correct, Upgrades will always be free.
Doesn't mean we can't retail our own DLLs though.

Cheers,

Rich

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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 04:26
"Doesn't mean we can't retail our own DLLs though."

And unless TGC do something about the security of compiled-in DLLs, everyone will steal them from the first app that gets released which uses them.

This isn't a snide comment, just a friendly suggestion

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Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 04:55
Ahh, so when Lee says:

Quote: "Large command set additions such as an entire physics engine would be an upgrade and either be sold for a small premium or put to one side and sold as an ‘upgrade’ when we have enough content to justify a new product."


He really means a DLL?

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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 05:31
I don't know why DBS gets all this shit over *considering* purchased upgrades-- as if other companies don't release tons of expansion sets and bonus packs for twice the price of DBP itself! Jeez...

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 06:19
i can see there actually being a battle later on between DBS & the TPF Developers ... i mean if we both end up retailing upgrade DLLs its going to be people with the best deals that get the business.

everything is very friendly right now between the TPF Developers as there is only a handful of us, but as DBP gets more and more stable with better TPF developer support - it will start getting very competitive, especially for those aimed at more professional clientel.

Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 08:46 Edited at: 11th Jul 2003 08:46
True, although TGC will probably be preferred then anyone else because they created the software in the first place and I guess people would consider their DLL's to be more 'stable' or 'professional'.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 10:48
suppose... personally the DLLs i've got lined up to sell are going to be handled differently to most.

basic premise is - you goto my website, register for the DLL which will receive a computer response ... then you wait for approval from one of the guys here and we then activate links to your account for trying out the DLL / SDK.

the DLL / SDK supplied is a fully working version, not cutbacks or dropped commands (although not always the latest version)

you can then use it free of charge if you don't charge for what your making, so Technology Demo's, Freeware Games, etc... will have the luxury of using it for free - it also allows people the oppertunity to learn it without having any commitments.

there are then 2 types of purchasing license for commercial use,
Shareware License - where you pay Nth amount per 250units (usually around $50-100)
Retail License - which gives you unlimited sales for a single title

although i don't doubt some people will try to lie and such to use the for free ... i've sorted out a small 1.2mb redist which must be installed on systems you include your titles with, and you have to supply your unique UID code when you compile along with running the smaller 100kb update for your product on the End User system

no doubt it'll be cracked by some more dishonest people eventually, but for now seems the best way to allow everyone to use the DLLs with myself and others on my team not actually working for free.

on in particular underthis will be DarkKarma simply because the price we've already paid to produce the DLL in the first place.

the call of 'stable' and/or 'professional' will then lie with those who try them out

Rob K
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 12:50
I don't mind purchase upgrades so long as it doesn't end up creating a two-tier user set.

Ie. Basic essential commands should be in upgrades, but a physics commandset could be pay-for, for example.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 17:54
i don't mind paying for upgrades either... however if thier purchaseable commands are released in a buggy state, i would be as pissed as hell

sorry but this whole business with the Bliters is reminding me just how unstable DBP really is again ... commands i want to use i can't and because i want to show them its builtin, grr it is very frustrating. I'm so used to recoding everything i use that when i finally get back to useing the builtin commands it seems like a nightmare

Bloodshot
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 07:15
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 08:26
... what has that got to do with the topic onhand?

Bloodshot
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 15:35 Edited at: 12th Jul 2003 15:37
Exeat started the thread about a new game coming out and was discussing the great GFX etc.. and recommending it to fellow gaming enthusiasts.
I simply returned the favour by providing a link to another great looking game that I thought he or anyone else might be interested in.
(Check out the 40mb rolling demo for it!)

So, just because my post followed your last one Raven, doesn't mean I have to continue your conversation, which seems to be more "off-topic" with the original post than mine, if we're gonna get nitty-picky about it!

<<< 1 fingered salute!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 15:42
yeah well the original post was about HL2 looking great and comming out soon... not about comming up titles.

although i'll admit that does look stunning, it still deserved atleast SOME explaination to why you posted it here.
even if it was just like

"if you like HL2 then you should check this out"
else it looks like you just putting a site in for no reason than to prove something and it just makes no sense on it own or really have a place.

and actually i think its good the topic actually got off HL2 and onto something about DBP, i'm getting sick an tired of hearing about it from every tom, dick 'n' harry who've seen the movie and just think its the best thing since sliced bread.

these'll be the same people in 3months who are seriously disappointed with it bitching about how it really is, and how they needed to get system upgrades just to play at a decent speed... etc...

Bloodshot
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 16:53 Edited at: 12th Jul 2003 17:38
If your Username is Raven or you're sick and tired of hearing about Half Life 2 from every person less superior than Raven who've seen the movie and just think its the best thing since sliced bread, then please DO NOT click this link below! (even though you might admit it looks stunning!)

S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

Apart from this, the only advice I can give to you Raven types*, is don't enter any threads with "Half Life 2" in the heading if the subject and people discussing it makes you feel ill.

*



If however, you're only interested in General topics returning to discussions about Dark BASIC Pro, please, please, please, click the following link now and don't come back:

DarkBASIC Pro Discussion


<<<Two fingered Salute!!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 18:05
your a sad sad lil man... personally i don't want people to get thier hopes up - and anyone who downloaded the Doom3 E3 beta will know would have understood, the hyper surrounding a game just isn't what you'd hope it to be.

and watching video is very different than playing the real game.
Videos are always taken over a series of days, with thousands of minutes of footage which you have to sit there and slice up and try to show the game in the BEST possible light - throwing in the odd - "Brand new physics engine" or something then showing some shots of the physics at its best... and such

i had to compile some of these very videos prior to General's release, i know EXACTLY what goes into developing them and showing them... even DBS know the power of what showing your stuff in good light can do for business.
and look at every film trail that tends to have the VERY best of the movie in the clips, there oftenly really isn't any point in seeing the film because the clips make you think its something better than it is and spoil the whole bloody thing... but this is what gets people to buy.

Sure everyone raves about HL2, why should'nt they? we've been waiting almost 6years for this bloody game - it's gone through 3 engine lifts - its had more stories than you could count ... but they're not using a premade physics engines like Karma and everyone is raving about how cool the physics is.
anyone who goes to http://www.mathengine.com can register for a free download the SDK, and you can make similar physics within a week! if you know a decent enough about of C/C++/Pascal i can guarentee you a week in Karma 1.3.0 and you'll take on look at the video of HL2 and just laugh your ass off, even more with all of the game mags saying its revolutionary.

HELL just download the demo of the Unreal2 Physics on the site or the Actor Demo!
[urlhttp://www.fileplanet.com/files/80000/87559.shtml[/url]

you wanna talk about shader and thier use... it is obvious that Stalker is using shaders - and look at it then look at HL2 - tell me WHICH LOOKS BETTER TO YOU?

i know which looks better to me, but good graphics DO NOT make a game ... and it is purely shocking to hear so many games developer wannabe's sitting here raving about the graphics of something.
you wanna rave about something, wait til the demo and then rave about the gameplay or interaction of the characters - which quite frankly just ain't gonna happen!
why? Because although yes it has a new face it is essentially HL 1.5 - the story is essentially a carry on, the gameplay is almost identical, the character interaction just hasn't been explored ... and ground breaking Ai? you'd think something like this would've improved with all that extra power at thier disposal, unforunately it is stuck in the old engine... with little to no innovation.
About the only updates there are, is the group and level interaction of the character - and most of this is seemingly prescripted like an NPC than an Ai entity.

Dave J
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 18:12
I haven't played the first HL so I guess I'm the only one who wins eh?

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 18:17
lmao... guess so well atleast until you get bored on the army camp - musta wandered about for 20mins trying to figure out what to do, kinda obvious though

big pile of explosive... truck... guard with keys to the truck
it was so obvious

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