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Geek Culture / every 1 goin blitz

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Arch
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 19:37 Edited at: 11th Jul 2003 19:39
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Well um, im not for either one of them i mostly use pure basic but anyway getting all these new features are good and great but wouldnt using dx 9 make the specs go even higher than they already are? I mean to run a good dbpro game you need a relativly new pc with a great gfx card. It seems like all dbpro is trying to do is target an audience that have p4 ,2ghz machine and up and this is good but i mean theres still a ton of people out there that dont have these kinds of machines and would like to play these games. to me blitz basic targets a wider audience not requiring direct x 9,552,563 or whatever the new version is out now, and the blitz demos, and games run really nice on my comp.

Sure we need to give dbpro some more time but i think instead of the creators targeting new features they need to work on the compiler alot more, and the other core features. The same stuff i have said here has been argued many of times but i think people really do want stability over features and would like to target wider audiences.

And another thing , please understand im not trying to put dbpro down and im gonna be as serious as possible on this , but really and truly I think that dbpro is nothing but a money scheme really. They talk about how good its gonna be at next patch or blah this blah that to get people to buy it, they pack it full of features that attracts people to buy it then promise stuff that *IS* in the language but is really buggy and doesnt really work. IMHO

And you say that theres more people using dbpro and thats true, but its marketed great and i would have never found out about blitz if there wasnt a link a long time ago to it on this very board; or maybe the old one, not sure. Im sure alot of people that bought db would have bought blitz if they had known(knew?did know?, ah whatever) about it. But hey thats just me.

But on a more serious note i really think they are both great products and alot of work has gone into both to make them possible. And theres room for them to co-exsist it really depends on what your target market is and if you like the features or stability. I really hope this doesnt turn into a big flame war like the others.:

[EDIT]
damn, theres been like 5 posts in front of me since i replied. ahhh

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Darkheart
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 19:39 Edited at: 11th Jul 2003 19:45
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@ VanB

Maybe, but I'm always looking at what the product can do now, because that's when I'm using it. In 6 months time, who knows, but again thats been a characteristic of DBS Software for years everyone's always waiting for it to achieve it's potential and it never quite does.

Peter's shadow system works for any object (did you see the frame?) he just used primives so that he didn't have to include any media.

Darkheart

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haggisman
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 19:40
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Darkheart, forgive me for pointing out the obvious but, DbPro has had cube mapping implimented since release. B3d still does not have a version with it implimented released to the public. The reason I know it works is because recently AntonyW of Blitz fame was on the newcomers board asking for help to get it working. I gave him some help and he got it working... So how did you get the idea anybody was trying to replicate a feature already included inside DBpro?

As to the demos on DBDN, they were not made by me and so it wouldn't be proper for me to give you a download link. I'm someone else on DBDN will be able to coroborate my story, maybe even the Blitzer who created the demos.

project: light/obscurance mapper (85% done)
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Darkheart
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 19:48
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But if the cubemapping in DBP does work then how come nobody can create a demo like Rob's (aka Bloodlocust)?

I'd thought it would have been an easy thing to wheel out something, in fact at the start of this thread I was expecting someone to post something like, "Big Wow, we've been able to do this for months, look at my demo from xx/xx/xx". Except nobody has, which to me anyway says there's a real problem trying to replicate a scene like Rob's demo...

Darkheart

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haggisman
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 19:54
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Surely you must realise Rob's demo is basically just a tech demo and that is all. DBpro already came with an example showing the cube mapping effect so i highly doubt anybody here will waste their time creating a demo when there is already one in DBpro.

project: light/obscurance mapper (85% done)
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 20:09
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Raven does have other commitments than to spend pissing about loading things with the default damn'd thing which aren't working and i'm getting more and more pissed by the second by this entire arugment ... you might not have seen a working demo from me yet in exe form but the code i posted within the cubed post WILL run as i tested it with a based BSP (that i don't have the space on my server to upload as its greater than 2mb and i ain't pssing about for 20mins trying to break it down into less)

as for demo's in DB there is current a water one in the code snippets - which was converted FROM blitz3d to dbp.

you wanna trounce over someone - trounce over someone who ain't so damn'd busy right now

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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 20:17
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"On DBDN recently two demos were posted up, one made in DBpro and the other in B3D. In every case DBpro was on par with or faster than B3d. That was not even at the expense of Image quality as everyone agreed that DBpro version looked nicer. "

I must say I strongly agree with this. I'll post the images up if people want to see the difference. DBP was quite a bit faster than Blitz (30%+), and the shading did look a lot nicer.

At the end of the day, DBP suffers from having poor low-level commands, and I will keep nagging Lee to improve them until we see a result.

A lot of the examples DarkHeart posted were possible because of Blitz' excellent low-level commands. The cube mapping demo cannot be replicated until CHANGE MESH is fixed (Lee promised again today that it will be in U5). If U6 fulfills its potential, and works as it is supposed to, it can better Blitz. Let's hope for the best

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
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Darkheart
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 20:57
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"DBpro already came with an example showing the cube mapping effect so i highly doubt anybody here will waste their time creating a demo when there is already one in DBpro."

Which one?

All the ones I've seen use sphere mapping...

Darkheart

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haggisman
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 20:59
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Its the Basic 3d showcase example.

project: light/obscurance mapper (85% done)
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Darkheart
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 21:02
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Got link?

Darkheart

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empty
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 21:12
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Quote: "
I thought it came out in July, or was it August.
"

September.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 22:39
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"Can you produce something as cool as this little demo which I knocked up a while a back?"

You sine-wave a teapot and it requires an 8.3 Megabyte data file?! Jezus, whether this could be done in DBPro or not doesn't bother me, but why such an ungodly file size for a simple effect?

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
New DBS Web Sites Coming Soon - All Change
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Eric T
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 04:11
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Me: Hmmmm, i wonder when this arguement will end.

My Old Man: When the idiots relise that assembly is the best language, without it you would have no other languages.

Me: yeah, now give me a beer.

my Old man: ...Get yer own damn beer

....in other words the old man says that over blitz and DBP and even c++, he'd chose assembly

Opinions are like a$$holes, Everybody has one.
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Darkheart
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 05:07 Edited at: 12th Jul 2003 05:09
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Because it's not just a sine wave, read the previous posts, all the vertices could be doing ANY deformation I just happened to choose a waveform for this one. I did a pretty detailed explanation of where the filesize comes from, but here it is again.

The model has around 4000 vertices, each vertex has x,y,z,u,v,nx,ny,nz all as floats. Each frame every vertex deforms so for each frame of animation you have x,y,z for each vertex, for each frame. There are 200 frames so you have 240,000 floats to store the animation. The reason the file is so large is NOT because of the effect but the effect that it could be ANY effect and it allows for anything to happen. This is very useful if you want to export whatever you created in the modeller to your programming application.

This size can be significantly reduced by using interpolation, but because this is still beta I export every frame rather than using a sample and interpolating. Basically every time you interpolate you can divide the file size by the interpolation to frame ratio.

If I get time this weekend I will do a demo which makes this more obvious as a few people seem to have missed this.

Darkheart

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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 05:50
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That file size has still got to be unnessesary. Manipulation can be handled in code, and full manipulation of 4000 vertices is NOT very impressive-- I mean, yes, by DBP standards I suppose it's neat, but that is still inexcusable for 8.3 megs.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Johnny Darkafterlife
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 06:47
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Oooh look at it go

http://www.blitzcoder.com/cgi-bin/showcase/showcase_showentry.pl?id=norc01122003100106&comments=no

There we go a good FPS made in blitz as you ordered. Now where is a better one made in Dark basic?

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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 08:03
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dbp vs blitz..

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Puffy
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 08:20
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o_O Ugh... simmer down now... =P else I be forced to lock it... I don't want a complete DBP VS BLITZ thread...

EVERYONE LOVES THE PUFF!... =\
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Johnny Darkafterlife
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 08:21
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Oh but there so much fun.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 08:24
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i agree the file size is unessary as my DirectX version of the demo has 32,000 faces in binary Dx8.1 with spline animation - came out at 2.2mb texture was only 231kb and the dbp exe was 3.2mb (bloatware though)

i'm still baffled to way DBP ONLY seems to be supporting Stati, Heirachialc & Bone mesh Dx at the moment - as the Spline intergration isn't particularly hard (there's a flipping Dx interface the the entire DirectX format in Dx 8.1&9.0)

i could load it by hand or make a quick DLL for it, but then no doubt we'd get back "oh well you can't do it natively then can you... blah blah blah."

however Blitz wasn't released with the same 3DS Support it has now and it certainly as hell didn't have the all-in-one format of B3D, you were effectively stuck with static/heirachial 3ds and md2.
i still can't seem to find an MD2 plugin to export and test that apart from in milkshape - but then that wouldn't be just applying a modifier and exporting.

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Puffy
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 10:47
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yeh... I know what you mean .... =P

EVERYONE LOVES THE PUFF!... =\
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Johnny Darkafterlife
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 11:53
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Just reading through, wasnt this a DB vs BB thread to start with
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Puffy
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 12:07
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=P Not really... it was more like "there is no one good here"...

EVERYONE LOVES THE PUFF!... =\
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Johnny Darkafterlife
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 13:23
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Wow it evolved. Pitty it has to stop now i was going to have fun shoving yur words back in your mouths about blitz.
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 13:49 Edited at: 1st Nov 2003 02:00
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EDIT
What a load of crap said back then.

Do you bite your thumb at me sir?

Athelon XP 1600 Plus - Nvidia Geforce MX400 - 256mb RAM
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 13:52
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psyco you wanna make people eat words about blitz then go right ahead... (^_^) hehee

:: has one of those looks like he knows something ::

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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 15:02
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well, if even Rich was here, guess Puffy can't lock it yet until he give the word

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Puffy
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 15:09
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=P Mods go on there own judgement... =\ its just not really bad yet...

EVERYONE LOVES THE PUFF!... =\
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 15:15
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yup, so far it ain't bad 'yet'..
hope it stays that way

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Johnny Darkafterlife
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 16:54
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Sure do
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Johnny Darkafterlife
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 16:58
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The thing is what makes these games look good is the graphics and sound. The engine just puts these together with some effects (shadows or what not). Really the only difference I can see with max payne 1 and max payne 2 is the graphics. (coarse it is only a screenshot, its not like I am going to hear the sound effects).

Anyway back to the monkey. Can I see a good game made in Dark Basic that take advantage of some of its features. I have heard of some powerful stuff and wouldnt mind seeing it in action.
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EdzUp
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 17:17
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IMHO both systems are reasonable (not great because C++ holds that with full access to everything from just one language), personally I would use the best tool for the job.

As for the DX9 without patch question I would sooner have DX7 compatibility and a good language than DX9 compatibility and a buggy language that doesnt work right. Im still waiting for the 'free flight controls' that were promised for patch 4 and by reading the forum I can glean they arent in still. This reminds me of the DB1.05 problem where it had to be asked for tons of times as the original DB was aimed at FPS's till it was asked for enough.

I prefer naming of objects over numbers the main reason for this is simple its easier to have something called 'PlayerShip' over 'object 1 and a variable called playership', this way if I want to change something I just access playership and thats it, yes I know you can access the object through the playership variable in DB but to me its messy. Why cant DB have object naming convention all other languages have even C++. I still have yet to see some demo that would require DX9 fully that couldnt be coded in C++ using DX7 functionality.

If DBLtd can sort out the compatibility issues, make the language more stable, and make it so all the commands are in there from the word go then I might look at DBPro for coding SF2005 but as yet I am still to be convinced, its been 4.1 patches and its still not 100% stable or even 90% stable and some of the commands arent in there yet. As the saying goes if you get people to pay for testing you get monkeys if you get a good testing team together that know what they are doing then you will get a good product.

If anyone wants to see what ive been doing lately check here:
http://www.blitzcoder.com/cgi-bin/showcase/showcase_showentry.pl?id=edzup04272002060453&comments=no

-EdzUp
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Dave J
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 18:00
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I've noticed that all Blitz games come with free textures and media files for the taking...

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 18:08
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lmao... don't read the readme's do ya Exeat
they're all copywritten media - but your right there isn't a media includer for blitz without manually making one.
ya know i've noticed, Media Compressed Exe's actually come out alot smaller than standard exes

could just be me though

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Dave J
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 18:29 Edited at: 12th Jul 2003 18:32
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Lol, unfortunately I didn't see the Readme and redistributed them to millions of newbs around the world who have already included them in their SECURE DBP exes for their own games.

I did download and install that FPS Chateau game and true, the graphics are alright although nothing DBP couldn't handle. The reason we haven't produced something like that yet is simply because we haven't wanted to yet. I do have a couple err, complaints if you don't mind:
-You really need to drop down the mouse sensitivity a lot, moving my mouse a millimeter (I'm a metric man ) would spin me around several lots of 360 degrees.
-Similarly, the camera shakiness is just as bad, I was shaking so much I'm dizzy while writing this. o_O
-Fortunately there's a config file I can edit (don't know if I should be able to lol) however it took about 8 times of opening and rerunning the program to get it to work which is just a pain in the ass.
-This might just be me but my Left hand is on the WASD keys, my right on the mouse... and the crouch button is the RIGHT Shift Key, now that's a long way to stretch for most people, I'm thinking the Left Ctrl Or Left Shift would be an appropriate alternative?
-And finally, every damn light bulb doesn't have to be as bright as the god damn sun...

Oh yes, and the story:
-The Illuminati... hmm... Deus Ex anyone?
-I don't know what your definition of Chateau is but Military Warehouse doesn't really come to my mind.
-Last but not least, who the hell has the name: "Edmond Adolphe Jules Jacques Maurice Baron de Rothschild"

Like I mentioned, it is a good game but there are a couple problems with it that stop it from being "great".

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Arch
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 18:50
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Hmm, yet again you didnt read fully. Psyco never said he made the game now did he. So why you giving him all these gameplay reports when its not even his?

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Dave J
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 18:52
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Obviously so he can forward them onto the creator. Sheesh, do I have to think of everything?

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jul 2003 19:19
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lol :: whispers to Exeat "yeah i mean think about it we're DBer's man we have to be more resourceful " ::



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Puffy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 06:35
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o_O Hrmmmm... =\

EVERYONE LOVES THE PUFF!... =\
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Johnny Darkafterlife
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 07:36
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"The reason we haven't produced something like that yet is simply because we haven't wanted to yet"

Same with blitz making half life 2, we just cant be botherd but we could do it

Thats a pretty blank statement.

1. You said that DB hasnt made a game better or the same than that yet
2. You payed it out

[cough]hypocrit[/cough]
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Eric T
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 07:43
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Quote: "Same with blitz making half life 2, we just cant be botherd but we could do it "


Any language could make half life 2, its just most of them it would run slower than shit.

Opinions are like a$$holes, Everybody has one.
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Kanzure
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 08:13
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So..your saying PHP & Libert Basic can make half life 2? SWEETNESS.


[side note: think before you post ]

~Morph/Kanzure
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Eric T
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 08:16
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ok i should refraise that

and i don't think before i write speak or eat, so why b4 i post?

Opinions are like a$$holes, Everybody has one.
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Kanzure
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 08:56
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Quote: "and i don't think before i write speak or eat, so why b4 i post?"


Uhhhhhh.....*thinks*

....

...

maybe to avoid flame wars?.... i dunno..its just common since, although I don't think before I speak (thank god for chatting)..

~Morph/Kanzure
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 10:25
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Quote: "Same with blitz making half life 2, we just cant be botherd but we could do it "


Quote: "Any language could make half life 2, its just most of them it would run slower than shit."


LMFAO! ... Blitz3D physically can NOT do HL2, not can any other Basic language with the exception of PB - and technically PB cannot do it out of the Box you would have to hardcode the support you need.

DarkBASIC Pro is currently the ONLY BASIC language which would even have a slim chance in hell at achieving it (and i mean SLIM as a thin slice of ham!)

Right now only C/C++ is actually capable of achieveing something like Half-Life2 ... and i'm sure those who understand the engine will understand perfectly why ONLY those languages can.

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Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 11:08 Edited at: 13th Jul 2003 11:09
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MONKEY
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Rob K
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 11:16
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Quote: "LMFAO! ... Blitz3D physically can NOT do HL2"


Indeed, I quote from Gabe Newell - "the source engine is based around shaders" - that rules out a certain language eh

DBP cannot do HL2 either, it just isn't flexible enough. DBP could do a lot of the effects, but it isn't fast enough and direct access to the renderer is necessary.

Quote: "LMFAO! ... Blitz3D physically can NOT do HL2, not can any other Basic language with the exception of PB - and technically PB cannot do it out of the Box you would have to hardcode the support you need."


What I think Yusuke meant was, you could emulate the FX in software... at 0.02FPS


BLUE GUI Plugin: http://blue.robert-knight.net
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Puffy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 12:01
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o_O PB can't do much unless you hardcode it... ^_^ but I love PB...

EVERYONE LOVES THE PUFF!... =\
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 12:08 Edited at: 13th Jul 2003 12:09
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PuffyBasic!

nO SERIOUSLY, WHAT DOES pb STAND FOR?

cuRant PRogekt: a three-de map editer
Why the hell'd you ask me for crying out loud!?!
Athelon XP 1400 Plus - Nvidia Geforce MX400 - 256mb RAM
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Rob K
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 12:46
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PureBasic I believe, although there is a program called PowerBasic as well.


BLUE GUI Plugin: http://blue.robert-knight.net
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