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Geek Culture / every 1 goin blitz

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Dave J
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 13:10 Edited at: 13th Jul 2003 13:11
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Quote: "1. You said that DB hasnt made a game better or the same than that yet
2. You payed it out"

DBP could well have made something of equal or greater quality although I personally haven't seen it. Then again, I spend most of my time programming rather then running around gavering evidence that DBP is better then Blitz.

Oh and Payed what out?

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Johnny Darkafterlife
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 13:20
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Raven didnt you see the ninja? I know that BB and DB couldnt make half life.

Around and around we go. Im not here to argue just to change some crazy ideas that you have.

Also with the mark sibly thing, Ill just ignore the "I have a crush on lee" thread then.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 14:04
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yeah that's kinda whats put me off PureBasic alot, the hardcoding of any features you actually need... i mean if i'm gonna have to make my own engine i'm just gonna go with C++ w/DirectX.

suppose one good thing though is that there is no begging the development team for the core access, you just flip over to the APi Modual and DLL access and i'm ya uncle you've got full access
unforuntately it still requires alot of actual in-pb programming to get it done and exporting a PB modual but suppose you can't have everything you'd like hehee

Quote: "Raven didnt you see the ninja? I know that BB and DB couldnt make half life."

yes, and its nothing that DBP couldn't handle with ease...
no DB nor Blitz3D could handle a heavy shader based engine as they don't have any access.

but we're not talking about DB vs Blitz3D here - we're talking about Blitz3D vs DBP which is an entirely different animal.
although the shaders right now are buggy and i wouldn't like the idea of having to use them in a serious project ... it is still entirely possibly to achieve alot of HL2's effects albeit in a lot more roundabout way but still achieveable with DBP.

as for the "I have a crush on lee" thread then., i think you'll find it was started by a 14yo girl from wales who seems more interested in Lee than programming, so a very moot point.

but i think another point that you seem to miss is that we can expand DBP... if i wanted to create a HLSL Shader PreProcessor for DBP i could quite easily

-> Create own Primatives/Object Loading DLLs
-> Set IDE PreProcessor to export .fx as a txt file to be read and compiled on-the-fly, IanM has recently shown that this is possible with ASM and does goto show just HOW extendable the language really is as we now have true low level access that only PB Devvers had before.
-> Create a Shader Processor DLL to apply to my own Object/Primatives

then you export it all to the pipeline que, which is a pretty simple part.

you just can't do that in Blitz3D because you have ZERO access to the engine itself ... so hijacking it for your own needs and benefits is just out of the question with it.
you have to remember that Blitz developers have spent years learning howto use it, you add onto this fact that most of the outstanding software/demos/games released are from people with a damn sight of experience around the industry.

for example Josh Klint who made Cartography Shop & The Singularity (which are probably THE best that Blitz has to offer) has around decade developing within the Quake Modification communities, he comes from a background of game development ... and you'll find most of the others that post up Tech Demos to show off what it is capable of are people in or around the industry. and it is only a very small selection of user including Marc and those who are in constant contact with him that actually produce things worth seeing.

DBPro is around 10months old now, the core is still extremely buggy and if you think comming from DB helps to understand it - something thats pissed off alot of users of DBPro is the fact that you CAN'T simply flip between the languages and expect the same results, they have the same syntax but they work very differently. Which means we have to not just learn new things to produce similar results but also have to learn all the little qwirks.

Quote: "Around and around we go. Im not here to argue just to change some crazy ideas that you have"

you are probably the only one who's going to go around in circles as we have Blitzers dising a language they have NEVER used.
you want executables of things, find out what works and what doesn't - download the demo and find out for yourself... some of us don't have all flipping day&night to spend coding our things and developing all of the art.

the people who actually understand this language the best are all working on TPF plugins to actually improve the language rather than purely programming titles in it.
this is the most major different between the languages, it isn't the syntax and power of each or features... its the communities!

ya see there arn't many demos out because unlike the blitz community who are always like "aww, this just can't be done" then someone shows them a demo that proves it can be, we work on the assumption that it does work until we hit a bug ... and if you post up that your having code problems especially with the newer features alot of this community will put on hold thier own projects and stuff just to help them out and see if there's a bug, if they're using it correctly.

so what if we don't have a demo of realtime shadows on reflective water with dolphins exploding out of the water with water that twinkles in the light as the particles splash up ... i'd rather 100 people understand roughly what the memblocks are and can do than a single person understanding them totally understanding them and not sharing the knowlage.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 14:46
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Quote: "
VanB I don't want to turn this into a flamewar but the phrase "after patch <insert next patch here> Darkbasic Pro will <insert boast here>" has been synonmous with DB development for years. Darkbasic Pro has been out for more than a year now and it's still playing catch up in terms of speed, stability and working features. Not taking anything away from DBS but I'll believe it when I see it.
"


Well you can ask many of Blitz users that have turned their projects over to DBPro and that are posting on DBDN right now about that.

Unlike you, we get daily updates on whats going on with the language and features with pictures as well. From Mike Johnson, Lee Bamber, and Rich.

Unlike you, we actually know where the language is going and where its going is a lot more exciting than sitting around wondering about when Mark is going to make an update to Blitz 3D.

Unlike you we can have Mike and Lee look at new features that we would like to have put into DBPro and actually get to see them put in.

Unlike you I don't have to wait 6 months for an update that should have been done two years ago and its a DirectX 7 update for crying out loud, how sad is that?

Quote: "
Wasn't patch 4 supposed to make a huge difference and slay the competition? It hasn't really made much differnce and DBP is still well behind in features and speed. Every thing I've seen in DBP can be or has been done already in Blitz faster and to a higher standard mostly these days it's the other way round, people trying to duplicate features from Blitz in DBP.
"


This is the problem with some of you kids, you are sooooo misinformed about whats going on, that you have no idea of what you are talking about.

Patch 4 is about the DBO format. So that you can understand this, I will explain it to you.

Blitz right now has seperate loaders for all different formats, such as .x (direct X 7 version), .3DS, .MD2, and .B3D. What if instead of all that code for each loader, you threw out loaders all together and instead converted those formats on the fly to the .B3D format, so internally you just work with the .B3D format alone. All .X models and such would be converted on the fly to the B3D format and formats in the B3D format would not get converted but loaded.

This one file format makes life a lot easier, because you still support all of the other formats, but they get converted in realtime and then you can do special things with them (ie add bumpmapping and save it as a DBO format and next time you load it in, it will have that bumpmapping included and no extra code needed.

This makes coding easier for Mike and Lee and bug hunting easier as well as making things easier like collision because there is only one model format to worry about. Also the conversion is so quick that you don't notice it, its very fast. It also adds in a lot of speed.

This is what Patch 4 is okay? Now do you get it? DBPro was released in September and it took the first four months of the year just to get DBO right because they basically re-wrote the entire 3D engine as the DBO objects affect everything from Particles to Collision.

You will see some impressive stuff soon enough, lots going on and the entire website portal is being redone from scratch and lots of things are going to be updated.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 15:10
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Im still waiting for the 'free flight controls' that were promised for patch 4 and by reading the forum I can glean they arent in still. This reminds me of the DB1.05 problem where it had to be asked for tons of times as the original DB was aimed at FPS's till it was asked for enough.
"


Free flight controls work fine in Upgrade 5. Do you need something else?

Well try asking Mark Sibly to do anything on the Feature Request forums, its a joke.

Its funny how DBS gets hunted down for their broken promises and their not listening to consumers and when Mark Sibly does the same things, you Blitz boys just ignore it. DBS by far now listens to their users, you dudes will find out with Upgrade 5 and Upgrade 6.

Upgrade 5 isnt really that big, it just adds in Direct X 9 High Level shaders and CG shaders and a few other commands I can't mention here because they were highly requested. ;p

You kids still don't get it do you? DBS of right now, is not the DBS of old, Mark Sibly is the DBS of old, just a better coder then where Lee was at the time.

Why do you think me and others have left Blitz 3D. There simply is very little future in it right now. Blitz 3D does have a few features over DBPro at the moment, but its only a momentary thing. DBPro also has some features that Blitz 3D does not have.

I can also confirm that in Upgrade 6 that the language is going to be worked on to do some stuff people want, I can't say what in detail that is.

I have also posted whats going to be in Upgrade 6.

Full CSG (addition/Subtraction/intersection), but not just with low polygon objects like cubes, but high end models and with full on limbs.

Lightmapping colored and with soft shadows. These are commands in DBPro language itself.

Octtree rendering system with advanced Portal system and using full on collision including elipical collision. More than just BSP's available for your use.

Low level vertex and polygon support. Basically what Darkheart wants. With Vertex Alpha and Vertex Color supported.

Other things I cannot mention, these are the things that I can mention.

All of the above things are finished, minus the Low level mesh abilities and these are upgrade 6 features and Upgrade 5 isnt even out yet. So there are lots of good things being held back on purpose to allow testing of these features proper.

Also before you say that I am dreaming, I am a DBDN member and these are in fact the real deal, not rumors.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 15:19
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Can someone find me a host to post two pictures at? I have one of Blitz 3D and one of DBPro and the frame rates are pretty close, one frame per second difference and DBPro's is the higher one, but thats not important, its the quality of the rendered graphics.

I have two pictures and they are .jpgs taken from code that I compiled with a test that was done to show the difference in each renderer and the Blitz render looks all washed out in color.

Can someone provide me the webspace?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 15:49
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Blitz right now has seperate loaders for all different formats, such as .x (direct X 7 version), .3DS, .MD2, and .B3D. What if instead of
Quote: "all that code for each loader, you threw out loaders all together and instead converted those formats on the fly to the .B3D format, so internally you just work with the .B3D format alone. All .X models and such would be converted on the fly to the B3D format and formats in the B3D format would not get converted but loaded.

This one file format makes life a lot easier, because you still support all of the other formats, but they get converted in realtime and then you can do special things with them (ie add bumpmapping and save it as a DBO format and next time you load it in, it will have that bumpmapping included and no extra code needed."


actually i think you'll find that Lee's interpretation of Loading multiple formats rather than converting to a single engine format was just him - most people and engines use a proprioty format which is then given importers.

and to be honest... i don't give a flying fudge what is in the future of DBP, i'd much prefer the team sorted out the HERE AND NOW of the engines.
not to sound out of line or against-DB but quite frankly how Lee has gone about developing the DBPro engine is shockingly amature.

I'm still calling DBPro an alpha (not even Beta) produce because quite frankly by the time you hit Beta testing your engine should be set in stone and your working on fixxes for that engine!... if you want to create a new engine then you either don't release for Beta testing or you start working on the next version of the language ... there was no excuse for DBPro to have had a complete rewrite for p3 i'm also not against the upgrade to Dx9 - but i AM against again rewriting the engine perhaps not completely but still enough to cause inherint problems to this new APi.

we really need this language to start being developed with a far far more professional attitude, you might not like how Marc is going about things but at the end of the day Blitz3D is a bloody stable engine which is running on the exact same engine that it has from day one.

There are so many question about DBPro that are raised with each patch... questions suchas, why did we have multiple importers rather than a proprioty format? why are the functions behaving differently to DB Standard? Why are we getting extra functions when the functions that are currently available are not stable enough for use?

I really would prefer to see a stable backbone of a system.... i would rather the ability to import a single format with 100% reliability than have 5-6formats which just plainly don't work 3/10times you use them.

sorry but, speed means bugger all to me - i would far rather a system that worked 100% that ran at 2/3rd the speed of Blitz than a buggy system that runs at 3x the speed!
and that might sound anti-db or something but quite frankly, Blitz3D IS MORE STABLE ... it might not have the features of DBP but atleast they all bloody work!

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DMXtra
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 15:57 Edited at: 13th Jul 2003 16:16
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I hate to tell you this, but not all Blitz 3D features work.

Check out this thread where Cube Mapping doesn't work for a lot of Blitz people in the community. Damn, there goes that stability and there are quite a few complaining about Mark releasing something that doesn't work on all systems. Doh!

http://www.blitzbasic.com/bbs/posts.php?topic=23298

"Personally I'd rather wait until its fixed. We've managed without cube mapping for two years - another few weeks isn't going to make much difference.

It's a pretty significant problem, I think, and I wouldn't be happy working with a 'problematic' release of Blitz."

oh crap, now what are they going to do? Their god is putting out something that doesn't work for all people!!! oh crap!!!!!

oh and by the way, every bug that I see on the forums or in my own code I post to lee and just about every one has been fixed minus the last batch. Unless you are on DBDN and emailing lee and getting messages back from lee and mike that this has been fixed for upgrade 5.

This is what I mean by people not knowing anything. Lee has fixed a lot of bugs and DBPro is quickly becoming stable, I know some people don't want to hear that, but I have the bug list for upgrade 5 right here and I have emails that say fixed for upgrade 5.

Also two years for an out of date engine is pure crap! Thats insane, I don't care how stable it is, if its crap, its crap! People are so desperate now they are writing their own OpenGL engine just to stick with the 21st century.

I also agree about the engine change, it should have been done in the first place instead of having DBPro written and changing completely from scratch, the good news though is apart from speed not a lot has changed to affect code. So its for the most part a transparent change. Also you can be relax as after Upgrade 5 Direct X 9 nothing should change in architecture for a long time, the only other big thing is the DBW format and thats still awhile from coming out and that will only affect BSP's and not the entire 3D engine.

This bothers me a lot less than not doing anything for over two years and have been promising Direct X 8 for two years and Direct X 9 for almost a year and basically stringing your users along.

Mark Sibly makes me mad because he is falling in the same trap that DBS used to fall in to, only its worse because he has four different products to update...

"As for Maplet2, its gonna be delayed again." - Wow, could have seen this for a mile. He will release the Blitz 3D update for cube mapping and MAYBE bumpmapping (he did not mention it in his worklog that he posts every 4 months), but thats just to string along users like DarkHeart and give him false hope. Even DarkHeart has doubts about Blitz, oh he won't post them here, but I have seen him post it on the Blitz boards.

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Dave J
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 16:17 Edited at: 13th Jul 2003 16:22
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Quote: "Full CSG (addition/Subtraction/intersection), but not just with low polygon objects like cubes, but high end models and with full on limbs.
"


Thankyou Lord, my unspoken prayers have been answered!!!
Lol that's a feature I've always wanted but didn't bother asking becuase I thought it was impossible. Hopefully it's not a hollow promise though and it will exist after the long wait.

Oh yeah, I also noticed you calling them DBS (DarkBASIC Software) a lot, just in case you didn't know, they're officially known as TGC (The Game Creators) now.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Rob K
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 16:32
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The CSG tech demo was very impressive, and fast too.

When they will be available to us, I don't know. Lee hasn't given a date or patch.


BLUE GUI Plugin: http://blue.robert-knight.net
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DMXtra
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 16:40
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Quote: "
Thankyou Lord, my unspoken prayers have been answered!!!
Lol that's a feature I've always wanted but didn't bother asking becuase I thought it was impossible. Hopefully it's not a hollow promise though and it will exist after the long wait.
"


yeah, they have this feature in for upgrade 6, we have a demo of it, but I don't think I can give it out. There are also pictures of it in DBDN. Upgrade 5 is looking like it will be out end of this month. Its my opinion and mine only, but I feel it will be out at that time. Lee is testing .FX files to make sure that they work in DBPro.

Lots of bugs have been fixed and functionality has been improved, for example you are supposed to be able to use INC and DEC with Arrays now. Its not all just new features though, upgrade 5 is more about bugs being fixed and direct X 9 high level shaders being used than anything else. If only RAVEN knew what the real deal is, he wouldn't be crying like a little school girl. Blitz users get worse treatment and they don't cry.

This is for RAVEN:
Raven, if you do come across bugs please email them to lee@darkbasic.com and he will fix them.

DBPro is becoming more and more stable, though, I wish I could show you all of the bugs fixed and things changed in a good way like the INC and DEC functionality, there is more coming.

Lee had also mentioned about Upgrade 6 compiler improvements and I don't mean bug fixes. We will see if he can get to them, but I won't say a word for a while.

Quote: "
Oh yeah, I also noticed you calling them DBS (DarkBASIC Software) a lot, just in case you didn't know, they're officially known as TGC (The Game Creators) now
"


Yeah, I know, bad habit I suppose. I have seen pictures of the new website, much better than what they have now and with lots of new features that I think people will really enjoy. Rich just rocks with webpage design, thats all I can say about that...

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DMXtra
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 16:47
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When they will be available to us, I don't know. Lee hasn't given a date or patch.
"


Well he told me as of thursday that it would be in Patch 6. We even discussed Patch 7 functionality, but I am not going to post that here. I would probably get banned for life. :p

Good things are coming and please take heart that I am going through all forums for any bugs and reporting them and they are getting fixed, almost all the ones reported like I said recently have been fixed and like I said Lee emails me saying "Fixed for Upgrade 5".

Also plenty of low level features are on the way, some that Blitz already has and some that they don't have, but also some suprises as well. hehehehehe

DBPro might have started off slow at the beginning of this year due to the DBO format, but its going out of this year with a bang.

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Dave J
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 16:58
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Quote: "Yeah, I know, bad habit I suppose. I have seen pictures of the new website, much better than what they have now and with lots of new features that I think people will really enjoy. Rich just rocks with webpage design, thats all I can say about that...
"


Yeah, I saw the first iteration of the new website and it looked superb although Rich tells me it's changed a lot since then, I can't even imagine how cool it might be now lol.

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Darkheart
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 17:11
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"That file size has still got to be unnessesary. Manipulation can be handled in code, and full manipulation of 4000 vertices is NOT very impressive-- I mean, yes, by DBP standards I suppose it's neat, but that is still inexcusable for 8.3 megs."

Mouse if you can find a way to store animation information that allows you morph any vertex of a mesh by any amount without storing 3 floats for the x,y,z offset I'm agog to here it. As already explained I plan to use to support interpolaton thus trading some accuracy for filesize but unless you actually have some real information or a technique to share I would hold the critqiue.

"I hate to tell you this, but not all Blitz 3D features work.

Check out this thread where Cube Mapping doesn't work for a lot of Blitz people in the community. Damn, there goes that stability and there are quite a few complaining about Mark releasing something that doesn't work on all systems. Doh!"

Another example of something pulled out of context to mean something else. This isn't a released version this is from Mark's worklog while he is working on a release it's hardly surprising there are still issues with the feature while he's still working on it. Jeez you guys really are desperaten to find some mud to sling at Blitz arn't you?

Darkheart

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 17:13
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lmao... your a funny guy B2DB i do send Lee a few emails about bugs, but really there are alot of stupid bugs that should NEVER have made it out of testing.

a current one for example is when you use Sprite with the Text command, for somereason it just doesn't work.

now look i know its nice to have a MAJOR patch and update to fixx things, but if Lee has fixxed small things like that we should have revision patchs just to fix important non-essential things suchas the Text commands - and perhaps the function bug which doesn't allow Globals.

i mean it is nice to know that they're comming in a new patch, but we have to wait for the ENTIRE patch to be finished and we have Lee and others on DBDN saying "oh yeah this is fixxed already" like a week after p4 was release but we still have to wait like 3-4sodding months for a major patch release... i mean THAT JUST AIN'T RIGHT!

if he's fixxes minor bugs then each week we should see a revision patch full of the bug fixxes for that week ... but all means include these in the major patchs as well - but i'd prefer to download a small 2-3mb patch every week or so with just minor fixxes than have to wait for these entire bloody engine rewrites.

i mean FGS what the hell happened to out model formats 1.04.1 was SUPPOSE to give up back all of them ... and the only one i can sodding load is DirectX - and alot of others have grumbled the same thing.
and ya know if Lee actually released the pointer setup to the interfaces there are a good 4-5 of us who could spend a day or so coding our own versions of these commands.

perhaps Cube mapping in Blitz is buggy... but who cares? if they want to produce cube mapping that badly you have the multitexturing controls in your 3D commands, it was possible to achieve cube mapping around 2years ago in Blitz - just because it wasn't a builtin command doesn't mean that the functions are there to allow you to do it.

we can't even used the '=' operator when we declare typed data, we can't use comments on the same line as code, we can't even add comments or second lines TO a bloody line with a typed command.
and it isn't just the language which has alot of bugs, its the IDE as well... we're promised new things which fixxes everything just to either not have it appear or to have something else get fudged up because of it.

Quote: "Oh yeah, I also noticed you calling them DBS (DarkBASIC Software) a lot, just in case you didn't know, they're officially known as TGC (The Game Creators) now"

i don't care what the heck they change thier name to, its still DarkBASIC Software to me ... just like Starburst are Opel Fruits and Snikker are Marathon - just because you change thier name doesn't make them any different. (that and its a bloody stupid name anyways)

------------
i know this is alot to say and might sound negative against DBS, however if i did as much fartarsing around as DBS have done with 7th Day Project ... i would've been dropped from EA Games, and it wouldn't be endorsed by nVidia.

its one thing to produce a program which is freeware or shareware that people only pay a few bucks and then playing around with its setup after release - its another thing to be a professional company trying to make a steak as a respected programming language developer and working as if your on a modification development team.

Sorry but alot of the problems within the language make me question somedays if Lee actually does know what he's doing when its comes to Dx or if he's just winging it as he goes.
It would've been preferable for the language to start of with a very small command base and then grown once it was stable enough.

i'm just sick and tired really of waiting for miricle updates that don't really fixx much, and it is well and good being able to contact lee but if everyone is always emailing him then how does he actually have time to get any work done?
there should really be an email specifically for bugs reports, and then people who need to actually know information about the engine emails Lee.

it might seems like a more elitist attitude but atleast you can have the others in the company trawling through the bugs and testing then putting what the actual bug is into an easy to read form for Lee to go "ahh right" then tinker away... or for Mike to also code some fixx for it.

i seriously don't think that DBO is even a set in stone format yet and they're already using it - i mean this all feels like just one big beta test to me ... which i'd be okay with if it was a beta test but it isn't, and alot of these decisions and things should've been sorted before it even was shown to the publishers.
it is just a frustrating thing to work around - and although i'm not gonna sit here and listen to Bliterz all up in our faces about how DBP can/can't do things i'm also not going to listen to horsecrap from the DB users trying to claim that its stable and the next patch is going to be THE ONE.

some of you guys need a very cold dose of reality here ... and the development of DBP either needs to be structured with a .plan or for enough access to the engine be released into the TPF community so we can actually get on with fixxing things.

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Dave J
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 17:14 Edited at: 13th Jul 2003 17:21
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What difference does it make then? DBP is still being worked on too, the fact that DBP is being worked on in public doesn't make it any different to a program being tested privately. Hence why our releases are quicker then yours.

Quote: "it might seems like a more elitist attitude but atleast you can have the others in the company trawling through the bugs and testing then putting what the actual bug is into an easy to read form for Lee to go "ahh right" then tinker away... or for Mike to also code some fixx for it.
"

Yeah, that's like an intranet for a company I did work experience for way back. They had very useful forms you filled out that categorized any problems and possible reasons, etc.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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haggisman
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 18:07
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Quote: "a current one for example is when you use Sprite with the Text command, for somereason it just doesn't work."


huh? That always has worked here fine..

project: light/obscurance mapper (85% done)
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 18:44
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are you sure haggisman? because was working with it all of yesterday, niether myself or puffy could get the functions working together.

its a weird bug where the sprites overwrote the text, if you didn't declare sync then when you moved the window the text would appear - if you put sync on then nothing would make it appear.

we tried background on/off - draw to front/back - using the cursor w/print command (which actually cut the display window in half)
nothing would get the text to show short of rendering the text and then display it also as a sprite.

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Rob K
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 20:04
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Oh honestly folks, Blitz / DBP aren't religions.

Raven and B2DBP should both give ranting a break and go and code something. Anything!

DBP needs its low level commands and stability sorted. Blitz needs an update. I think that pretty much summarised most of these posts.

Personally I brought DBP because it was cheaper. 'Nuff said.


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John H
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 22:15
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Sorry to go back to what mattman said,

you, ian,toady,rpgamer,indi,puffy,kang2,and robk

But I think I have to add a few

Kevin Picone
Van-B
Danny G (blivvy)
DrakeX (oh wait he went Blitz)
Dead Glory
Kain

People in my group are in my top list as well

RPGamer

Current Project: Eternal Destiny
Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Go to the Eternal Destiny Forum!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 22:37
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i am coding things
and because DBP was cheaper is a kinda shallow reason for getting a product.
Not to be funny, but the programming languages we each use should be because we ENJOY developing in them ... not simply because it had $20 difference.

and perhaps it might not seem important to you, but to people like myself it is just stupid to hear both languages being constantly slagged off. Especially misinformed slagging! I mean thats whats really irking me here... the Blitzers COULD focus on the fact that DBP isn't stable enough yet - but NOOO they're trying to make out that Blitz has more features and better features. Which is just complete bull.
And the DBers are trying to make out that Blitz is just totally useless and out of date ... but to be honest it can still produce similar graphics in the right hands and the speed of it can still give Pro a run for its money in the hands of the notices'!

you wanna sit there and have a VS about the product then BLOODY USE THEM BOTH and explain how they're both different... don't just do generalisations that quite frankly are more hear'say than actual facts.

and you know what you can screw the lot of you on languages for price and power... because Borland Builder C++ 5.5 is free in respect to license restrictions and to price, DirectX is also free and has borland tags for reprocessing the libraries into Borland format... so at the end of the day its actually alot cheaper with far more features to just get them.

just a pitty very few of you if any could probably make a spinning cube in DirectX without having someone hold your hand the whole damn'd way.

(and ya know that 'Nuff said that people keep doing is really begining to piss me off, if you mean enough said, then damnd well say that ... i mean what you think its somehow cool and clever to say something like a scruffian?)

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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 22:41
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I like muffins. 'Muff said.

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Rob K
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Posted: 13th Jul 2003 22:50
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Quote: "and because DBP was cheaper is a kinda shallow reason for getting a product."


Maybe, but at the end of the day, I think it is true in quite a few cases.

Quote: "just a pitty very few of you if any could probably make a spinning cube in DirectX without having someone hold your hand the whole damn'd way."


Well duh! That's why in many cases we use products like DBP, because we want to enjoy developing games / apps, not have to sit there for ages trying to learn DX.


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DMXtra
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 04:08
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Quote: "
Another example of something pulled out of context to mean something else. This isn't a released version this is from Mark's worklog while he is working on a release it's hardly surprising there are still issues with the feature while he's still working on it. Jeez you guys really are desperaten to find some mud to sling at Blitz arn't you?
"


Unless something big really happens he is going to release it. Thats not desperation, thats the truth and quite a few people are not happy with that.

The problem is that I am not desperate at all, I have used Blitz 3D for a year and a half and I am still in the community. There are many problems that you refuse to deal with or to see and even you have some conserns about the future of Blitz 3D, I know you do because I saw your post a few months back.

Blitz 3D does have some good points, such as better organized and a few low level features that are not in DBPro, but the other way is also true. Blitz 3D really disapoints me, because I wanted it to grow and stay with technology and see new features and see something new, but that is hardly ever the case.

I have the experience with Dark Basic, Blitz 3D, and Dark Basic Pro. I was using Dark Basic in the very begining, only to switch over to Blitz and stopped using Dark Basic when Blitz 2D came out.
I beta tested Blitz 2D for awhile and then ended up buying Blitz 3D and like Darkheart, I thought it was the bomb at first. I loved the way Blitz 3D was organized with entities. I still have the book right here. I used it for awhile, made a game with it even, but I was not satisfied on how Mark didn't really listen to anyone, he was going to do his own thing and didn't care what anyone else wanted, it was his language and he didn't value input all that much. He was supposed to have DirectX 8 and did not do that and of course all of his other broken promises.

I checked out DBPro and yes it was a little buggy, but I thought I could really help that process, I loved it. It was actually something modern as opposed to Blitz 3D was old school and Mark wasnt going to do anything about this. Might as well make Blitz for Dos and just stay there. If you arn't moving forwards, you are moving backwards.

I talk to Mike and Lee almost daily via email. I email bug fixes and email ideas and I always get a reply, well not from mike lately as he is on a well deserved two week holiday that ends July 21st.

I am not desperate to throw mud against Blitz, most of the low level features you are talking about are being added in already into DBPro. By upgrade 7, DBPro will have beat Blitz 3D in updates for the last year and a half.

Its not about mud sliging its about telling the truth. You notice why some Blitzers who used to post all the time, no longer post anything if hardly at all on the Blitz boards, there is a reason for that.

DBPro isn't without problems though and I acknowledge those problems, the difference is that Lee and Mike are trying to fix them and make DBPro awesome, while Mark isn't fixing Blitz 3D issues. He is off working on Maplet2, oh wait not this week, he is working on GNET, oh wait no make that the compiler for BlitzMax. No I think he is playing Super Monkeyball instead of coding this week.

Lets wait and see how long it takes for Blitz 3D to get the next patch after the Cube mapping patch comes out. Another Six more months?

The Blitz community was the only thing holding up Blitz and even that has been drastically reduced, remember before Feb of this year, things were rocking in the Blitz community, now hardly anything is going on. Don't worry Mark will create a new patch in six months with one or two commands just to make sure he strings you along again.

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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 04:22
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I've just brought Blitz3D, mainly because I'm working on a game that needs good low-level / mesh commands. When DBP sorts out this side of things, I'll port it back.


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DMXtra
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 04:27
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Raven,

I report your bugs to Lee and he has fixed a few of them. I mean come on, just because you don't know what lee and Mike are doing and just because you don't know what the Plan for DBPro is doesn't mean there isnt any plan. geeez. Thats whats so great about DBDN. I honestly, don't have a problem with that.

No offense but just because you are clueless doesn't mean the people in DBDN are and Lee and Mike are. BTW, Mike Johnson did the 3D engine, not Lee.

The people that make the most noise about DBPro are the most misinformed.

I would love to post the bug fix list and the changes in functionality, but I can't as I promised Lee that I would not leak it out yet until the Patch is available to DBDN at least.

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jeffmosesuk
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 04:29
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pickles smell of vinegar ?

"Time to play."
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DMXtra
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 04:30
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Quote: "
I've just brought Blitz3D, mainly because I'm working on a game that needs good low-level / mesh commands. When DBP sorts out this side of things, I'll port it back.
"


yeah, Mike should be starting on this when he gets back. I sent him everyone's suggestions for it as thats what he wanted. So we shall see.

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Puffy
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 06:53
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o_O I bought Blitz when it first came out... didn't have box edition or the manual yet... had to download for such a long time... ^_^ from what I've seen Blitz3D and DarkBasicPro are the same thing... just Blitz3D's code is a lil harder...

EVERYONE LOVES THE PUFF!... =\
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 07:09
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word.

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Eric T
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 08:28
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**just gonna sit back get popcorn and watch**

Opinions are like a$$holes, Everybody has one.
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Dave J
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 09:40
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*Has been doing that for several days now*

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 09:51
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Quote: "I report your bugs to Lee and he has fixed a few of them. I mean come on, just because you don't know what lee and Mike are doing and just because you don't know what the Plan for DBPro is doesn't mean there isnt any plan. geeez. Thats whats so great about DBDN. I honestly, don't have a problem with that.
No offense but just because you are clueless doesn't mean the people in DBDN are and Lee and Mike are. BTW, Mike Johnson did the 3D engine, not Lee."


B2DB look i'd strongly suggest you back away from going down this road of trying to somehow think you have an 'in' with the DBS team... i can see why Marc stopped responding to your emails now.
Just because i don't email the guys on a daily basis and MUST know exactly what is going on when doesn't mean i don't know the general ghist. It also doesn't mean that somehow your all of a sudden a big and might bigshot around here cause your just a guy with an emailer & an the guys Email addies.

if you look at how they develop it is BLATENTLY obvious that they're not working to any .Plan - its really more a case of they'll do some stuff for the current patch (or update ::rolls eyes: and then based on the feedback they'll think about adding other things and such. with little footnotes on napkins sayin "U6 add Low-Level Vertex Control"

there is NO actual carefully sat down and planned out future for DBP or good construct for how it should be developed, good example of this is several occasions i've been told one thign by Mike just to have Lee tell me another thing. And just because whenever i do ask questions it is rare about the in-programming features and such, until they get thier act together i don't see the point in showing Bugs to them because they'll be overlooked in place of adding some stupid new frivolous function that we don't need like Metal Mapping!

you think that i honestly want to get myself a DBDN Subscription to watch this horror going on, on a daily basis?
look at Marc your bitching because he doesn't listen to the users... well NOT listening when developing something and having a very clear path for development is much better than trying to make everyone happy. DBS are becomming a bigger and bigger company, it really is about time they started acting more like one. Sure they want user suggestions - so they should have a suggestion box, not have an email address to the lead programmer where he has to take time out and read the 100-odd emails he gets everyday from people saying the same-old same-old.

as i said, i don't give a flying f**k about the future, i didn't pay my $100 in the future, i paid it now ... i expect a product that works atleast with the core feature 100% now! not after patch bloody 8 or 9 like DB had.

no perhaps $100 ain't alot, but its not the price but the principal of paying for something which just does not seem to being developed to fixx the REAL bugs but give people new things instead.
Thing that WE could develop ourselves if given a chance and a stable core.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 10:49
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Quote: "
B2DB look i'd strongly suggest you back away from going down this road of trying to somehow think you have an 'in' with the DBS team... i can see why Marc stopped responding to your emails now.
Just because i don't email the guys on a daily basis and MUST know exactly what is going on when doesn't mean i don't know the general ghist. It also doesn't mean that somehow your all of a sudden a big and might bigshot around here cause your just a guy with an emailer & an the guys Email addies.
"


First of all you can't even spell his name right, let alone get anything else right (Mark Sibly).

The fact that its taken me two years and Mark has not listened to a word that I have said and not even posted back an email in 18 months and have totally ignored the feature request forum on Blitz Basic.com is proof of that. He does not listen to Blitz users at all. Here want a quote from him? I will go get a quote..

Gfk responds to mark..
"Is that your way of saying there won't be another Blitz update for the next six months? "

Mark responds to Gfk...
"No, its just my way of saying I don't really know what comes next!
But I'm working towards what I *want* to come next..."

Source: http://www.blitzcoder.com/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum1&topic=002487

Proof enough for you?

Quote: "
if you look at how they develop it is BLATENTLY obvious that they're not working to any .Plan - its really more a case of they'll do some stuff for the current patch (or update ::rolls eyes: and then based on the feedback they'll think about adding other things and such. with little footnotes on napkins sayin "U6 add Low-Level Vertex Control"
"


See the problem with this kid, is that you don't know whats going on, there is a new product being created that is being programmed in DBPro itself and to be able to create this product, they have to plan out the features that they want and they need to add in, they are expanding DBPro as they introduce features that are planned for this product.

This is the kind of stuff you simply do not understand. They are fixing DBPro bugs and expanding the language at the same time to create this product and the product needs a level of flexiblity with Mike doing the 3D coding and lee putting it all together.

Quote: "
there is NO actual carefully sat down and planned out future for DBP or good construct for how it should be developed, good example of this is several occasions i've been told one thign by Mike just to have Lee tell me another thing. And just because whenever i do ask questions it is rare about the in-programming features and such, until they get thier act together i don't see the point in showing Bugs to them because they'll be overlooked in place of adding some stupid new frivolous function that we don't need like Metal Mapping!
"


Well your perception and the actual reality are two different things.
Lee sets aside a huge time for bug fixing and I somehow keep saying this over and over and over to you again and you simply do not listen, bugs are being fixed. I have my email box full of responses just for patch 5 alone that things have been fixed for patch 5.

Why do you honestly think that Upgrade 6 features are not out in Upgrade 5, 90 percent of them are done. Thats right smart guy, they are being tested.

Quote: "
you think that i honestly want to get myself a DBDN Subscription to watch this horror going on, on a daily basis?
look at Marc your bitching because he doesn't listen to the users... well NOT listening when developing something and having a very clear path for development is much better than trying to make everyone happy. DBS are becomming a bigger and bigger company, it really is about time they started acting more like one. Sure they want user suggestions - so they should have a suggestion box, not have an email address to the lead programmer where he has to take time out and read the 100-odd emails he gets everyday from people saying the same-old same-old.
"


Well based on Mark changing his mind about half a dozen times per day, that shows me he doesn't have a .plan either dude. Look at Mark's own work logs and you will see he has less of a plan than what you claim DBS has. Here is the URL for his worklogs...
http://www.blitzbasic.com/logs/userlog.php?user=1

Yes, please read all of his worklogs and look how inconsistant they are. He really does not have a plan of development, period, read that entire worklog and find out for yourself. The fact is that you have a lot of knowledge of Direct X and C++, but you have no knowledge of whats going on with DBDN or the future of DBPro nor do you know anything about what Blitz has been like for the past two years.

Quote: "
as i said, i don't give a flying f**k about the future, i didn't pay my $100 in the future, i paid it now ... i expect a product that works atleast with the core feature 100% now! not after patch bloody 8 or 9 like DB had.
"


What doesn't work? I mean you say a lot of crap, but you are not willing to tell what doesn't work. You also completely ignore me when I said bugs are being fixed.

If you don't care about the future, then fine, screw Blitz, Screw DBPro and don't act like a bitch, but write your own language.

I mean come on dude, use your head that God gave you and do something with it. Write your own language and be done with it. I can't really feel sorry for you. Either you do something about a situation or you sit there looking like a jackass, its your decision.

Quote: "
no perhaps $100 ain't alot, but its not the price but the principal of paying for something which just does not seem to being developed to fixx the REAL bugs but give people new things instead.
Thing that WE could develop ourselves if given a chance and a stable core.
"


Dude, this isn't september 2002, lots of bugs have been fixed, but whatever. If you want to create your own language, don't cry like a little bitch, just do it!

You have good skills in Direct X and C++ and you would be great if you really were more proactive.

Just curious,do you have a programming job out there in the real world? I know I do and I have to be proactive and try to fix issues with Microsoft software and my own software and others to help myself and others.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 11:38
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KID?! WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?
just reading over all of this is begining to make me feel like i'm wasting my time with DarkBASIC Professional ...

ya know what after reading all of that your right ... fuck this, if this is thier business plan then i don't want any part of it!

Quote: "You have good skills in Direct X and C++ and you would be great if you really were more proactive."


apart from the fact that proactive just isn't a word, i want to help develop this language - but each step of the way of what i know and can access about it ties my bloody hands.
I could rewrite the entire bloody core for the Objects & Matricies within a matter of 2 weeks to the same level as what they have, but then what would the point be?? I mean then all DBP would be to me would be a bloody basic scripter for my own damn'd engine!

if i wanna create my own scripter for my own engine i'd just open up C++ and damn'd well do it in there.
i just think i should give this all quit for like 12months leave ya'll to sort this crap out - should probably focus full time on Luma anyways, atleast nVidia don't tie my hands behind my back when i want to create something.

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Johnny Darkafterlife
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 11:46
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Now this is fun to watch.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=proactive
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DMXtra
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 14:20 Edited at: 14th Jul 2003 14:43
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Quote: "
KID?! WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?
just reading over all of this is begining to make me feel like i'm wasting my time with DarkBASIC Professional ...

ya know what after reading all of that your right ... fuck this, if this is thier business plan then i don't want any part of it!
"


This hot air isn't going to make your engine come any faster. Stop bitching and put your money where your mouth is and start coding. Nobody is going to feel sorry for you, you are going to have to work your buns off, so lets see some work done on it. Why pussyfoot around?

All I know is that if I had your skillset, I wouldn't be wasting it like you do nor would I be sitting on my butt bitching which you seem to do a lot of.

Quote: "
apart from the fact that proactive just isn't a word, i want to help develop this language - but each step of the way of what i know and can access about it ties my bloody hands.
I could rewrite the entire bloody core for the Objects & Matricies within a matter of 2 weeks to the same level as what they have, but then what would the point be?? I mean then all DBP would be to me would be a bloody basic scripter for my own damn'd engine!
"


Just because its not a word or work ethic you know doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Look under pro-active.

Well saying you could do anything is irrevent. Could and actually having a language built is two different things.
I look at it this way, if you are not trying to find the solution to the problem, then you ARE THE PROBLEM.

There are some people who work for a living and then there are other people who bitch.

Quote: "
if i wanna create my own scripter for my own engine i'd just open up C++ and damn'd well do it in there.
i just think i should give this all quit for like 12months leave ya'll to sort this crap out - should probably focus full time on Luma anyways, atleast nVidia don't tie my hands behind my back when i want to create something.
"


Good, Get to it. I want to see this new engine twelve months from now, you have one year to bring your engine up to speed with DBPro and Blitz. No more bitching, just do it. Show everyone how its done...

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Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 14:58
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I sence a bitch comming on, it will be proactive too.
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haggisman
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 15:04
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Raven, you seem to be complaining a lot about how DBpro doesn't have a planned out future. Yet you aren't really in a position to comment, you aren't part of the dev team, you aren't a member of DBDN and so it brings a question how could you have such insights into the future of DBpro?

project: light/obscurance mapper (85% done)
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 15:30
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Haggisman you don't need to be sitting there with a content plan in your hands to know how DBPro is being developed...

if they'd planned it out right how come we've had 2 Engine changed already? how come we having features come and go?
Are these the acts of a company which has a set gameplan??

Quote: "Good, Get to it. I want to see this new engine twelve months from now, you have one year to bring your engine up to speed with DBPro and Blitz. No more bitching, just do it. Show everyone how its done..."


http://www.nvidia.co.uk/view.asp?PAGE=5900_demos
i'd suggest you search for 'Luma' as thats my engine, i've written most of it within the past 3months and it is far beyond what most companies using Cg even though was possible to push from the GeForceFX and Shaders v3

http://www.nvidia.co.uk/view.asp?io=kaena_uk
this guy is the only person who's FX engine is actually on par with what i've created and we push each others abilities pretty far.

if you were at GeForceFX 5900 unveiling you would've had the chance to play 7th Day Project in its alpha state, something which right now hints of news is slipping out about all over the shop in the form of the 'Luma' engine.

-----

quite frankly the reason i'm bitching here is because this is a stupid and insane way to develop a language. First you get the core working then you add features making sure they work right to avoid later bugs and problems.

but from what your saying thier developing it specifically for thier own purposes - so really Sod the rest of us because we'll only matter once thier project is complete and they can focus full time on DBP... THAT JUST F**KED UP!

They either focus on making thier damn'd FPS else they focus on making DBP - they don't have the man power to do both effectively!

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Van B
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 17:41
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I'll save people the bother...

http://www.nvidia.co.uk/search.asp?keywords=luma

Raven, when are you going to post some actual work to back up all your claims? - all we wanna see is something behind all this bitching that justifies it. Your here a helluva lot, and the fact that you haven't posted anything from one of you projects except DarkArena (model viewers) makes us sceptical about what your actually trying to do. Please don't use the old 'too busy' excuse, just grab a ferkin screen shot and post it here!.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 17:55
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I'm pretty sceptical too - anyone who can post an example with the line

global somenameorother(100)

and expect it to compile is begging for it.

It really annoys me here how certain people with post counts > 7000 do so little actual coding or modelling or anything.


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Johnny Darkafterlife
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 18:34
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Ok wait now im confused, your arguing amongst yourselfs (sp?).
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jeffmosesuk
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 18:38
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Quote: "I'm pretty sceptical too - anyone who can post an example with the line

global somenameorother(100)

and expect it to compile is begging for it.

It really annoys me here how certain people with post counts > 7000 do so little actual coding or modelling or anything."


Just put a ` infront of it and it will run fine, lol

"Time to play."
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Van B
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 18:52
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LOL!

And yeah Psyco - we often fight amongst ourselves, just like any other forum . The morrow of the story is don't just talk about it, get it done and show it to us if you expect us to take you seriously.

I just re-created Halo in DBPro, but I can't be arsed posting any screenshots.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
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Shadow Robert
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 14th Jul 2003 19:05
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... well thats odd as http://luma.nvidia.co.uk is up but without access - been trying to find out why exactly i don't have any ftp access to what they've made, but thier webmaster is kinda a jackass.

i can't actually show you any inengine shots, the same NDA that binds the people who've played it also binds me from showing anything too serious about it - but the recent render of that level i'm building in Max was rendered with a version of Luma for Max5.

and there have been slips of the engine all over the place, the reason for pointing to the demo page is because the first demo was recompiled using Luma for the FX (which is why it is a different demo to 2months back) ... and the Delapidated Garage is also using the Luma Interface for certain feature (but it wsa developed prior to the physics engine being put in)

i've shown screenshots from Zelda:TSP, DarkArena (Holav - and not just the modeller), i've released and resinded like 5versions of GameSpace already ... and i've shown screenshots of the umpteen UI's i've developed for it over the years.

and just because i sit here and code in the browser rather than in the IDE testing and then putting it across doesn't mean that you can instantly have a pop just for that, i've seen quite a few of you do that too - so i'd suggest you keep quiet.

and you guys are just arses when it comes to me... even when i have shown screenshots and released demos you've all been like "you didn't do that" or "thats not your work" - way i see it you guys just prefer to sit there and bitch that i don't produce anything and then bitch when i do.

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Darkheart
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 19:07
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"I just re-created Halo in DBPro", that's nothing to be proud of...

I'm really surprised they're even bothering with a PC release now, it wasn't that great even when it was released on console, although not bad for a console game. It's just going to be too outdated and limited now, and TBH who the heck cares anymore. IMHO there are much better games than Halo which didn't have anything particularly cool in the first place.

Darkheart

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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 19:56 Edited at: 14th Jul 2003 19:57
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Quote: "even when i have shown screenshots and released demos you've all been like "you didn't do that" or "thats not your work" "


Yeah sure. Show me ONE quote which supports that statement.

@Darkheart

Have you got the source for your Morph demo or is it not public? The B3D low-level commands are really nice, the only annoying thing is having to set EntityFX first, but I suppose it makes for less typing.

Quote: "I just re-created Halo in DBPro, but I can't be arsed posting any screenshots."


[sarcasm] Yeah, I know. I was looking at that Half-Life 2 beater I made in a few minutes the other day and I was thinking about some screenshots, but I really couldn't be bothered to upload them [/sarcasm]


BLUE GUI Plugin: http://blue.robert-knight.net
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Solidz Snake
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 14th Jul 2003 21:03
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*getting up to get more popcorns & soda*
Who wants more?

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Darkheart
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Posted: 14th Jul 2003 22:46
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Rob I'm pretty sure Van B WAS being sarcastic .

Unfortunatly the source code for my demo is not public, it is a two stage process, one half in C++ the other in Blitz (guess which was hardest?). The C++ vomits everything out of Max and the Blitz prog makes sense out of it.

There is a release date sometime soon but my day job is really busy ATM so I'm not making the progress I would like although skeletal animation is the only tough nut to crack now, that and adding some kind of good copy protection.

Darkheart

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