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Geek Culture / Notice to FMTau Users

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8truths
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 08:23
Is everyone missing the point?

The games.

No console is better than its games. Polys are nice, and God knows it makes life easier for programmers if the poly counts aren't constrictive.

But, how many polys did Pitfall, Donkey Kong, Load Runner, etc. throw at the world?

If this console has great games and is accessible to end users, then that will be all she wrote, and none of this thread matters much.

Dwell on the 33 MHz PS1 -- severely inferior to contemporary PCs on Day One. But, the games were there.

We can't stop here! This is bat country!
Van B
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 12:01
Raven,

It does'nt matter what you read off one of the chips on your Amiga's mainboard - a standard A500 runs at 7.14mhz, a standard ST runs at 8mhz, please stop picking figures out of your ass , and listen to us this time - these are the figures I remember, and these are the figures that have been confirmed. Bear in mind that some of us had long intimate relationships with our 16-bit machines (or was your Amiga 19-bit )


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
Eric T
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 12:28
Quote: "Bear in mind that some of us had long intimate relationships with our 16-bit machines "


yeah well i once tried to be intimate, but erm lesse i had ummmm nevermind

Opinions are like a$$holes, Everybody has one.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 12:58
whatever Van, don't really care ... i followed that link though and it put the A500/+ processor as a 16bit Core with a 24bit External - which is kinda wrong as the 68k's were 16bit Internal 32bit External, the motherboard clock was set to 7Hz but the processor and ram were/are set to a synced 28.375Mhz

the sound is a 16Bit 4Mhz affair with a 2Chip Affair Odd/Even CIA
the Graphics Denise/Paula are 16Bit 7Mhz (although there were only capable of 15Bit Colour) with the FatAngus 24Bit CoProcessor.
you have a Gary SCSI/Port Controller Chip
(god know what it was about commodore but they named everything after the original designer)

also most Amiga 500's came with an Mx 2.04 Kickstart Chip but with a slot upgradeable from the 40pin to the 42pin Workbench Kickstart

------------------------

not that i really care because the technology is now 13years old and not really applicable right now is it?
the A500+ could push a max of around 12triangles at 8fps in Amos (probably more with Pro or the Compiler) ... i'm not sure how useful that would be for the games being produced here.

-----------------------

Quote: "The games.
No console is better than its games. Polys are nice, and God knows it makes life easier for programmers if the poly counts aren't constrictive."


your forgetting the end-users ... Armchair gamers (as they've been dubbed officially) don't care about anything except graphics, thats what they'll buy a game based on. The more you can hype your game and make it look good the more units it'll shift.
if you can actually put a good game in there then thats a bonus because those units will not be returned!

at the end of the day this is all about making sure we all make money, which means alot of good looking games so that we can actually finance and support those games which will make a mark -
Suchas Perfect Dark2 : Architecture, Tomb Raider 7 : Revenge or Resident Evil/Biohazard4 ... but to get to these games we've gotta make alot of Star Wars Starfighter & DOA Beach Volleyball games.

The games that appeal to selective markets that you know after a few weeks they'll get bored of them, so you've gotta make them look good because there ain't no game in them at all!

Some rare instances though, you can pack games with graphics and make them awesome to play too with alot of replayability.
GTA3, Halo, etc...

try to remember although the industry is innondated with really pathetic titles, that use the hardware they're on to push themselves - the hardware itself can lead to fantastic games.

There is no way Halo would run on a PS2, just like there was no way that GTA3 would've run on a dreamcast or PSone!
Hardware advanced to allow developers to give you those gems that go down in the gaming history books... just look at Perfect Dark, reflections on a console! that was unheard of graphically for consoles! Especially one which can't actually push many polygons physically.

if PD was only that effect no one would've bought it, but the point is that the technology advancements (namely the 4mb upgrade) made it possible. Just like the double resolution and sharper graphics on PodRacer... or even Donkey Kong 64 would've never have existed without it.

Rob K
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 14:15
Quote: "BumpMapping"


I think you mean NORMAL MAPPING, similar, but not the same. Normal mapping allows you to control the X and Z shifts of each point as well as the Y shift.

Quote: "but think about it, your going by per second and by per frame...
so my 2,800,000"


Obviously that would be very impressive.

Mattman
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 18:24
Quote: "
Real-world polygon : 6 million to 12 million polygons/second (Peak) (Assuming actual game conditions with complex models, fully textured, fully lit, etc.)
"


That is from the nintendo site. Told you is could do 12 million polys!

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
Rob K
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 18:30
That is polys / sec though. Raven meant scene polycount. So divide 12 million by say 30FPS to get the scene polycount.

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 18:37
Quote: "68k's were 16bit Internal 32bit External"


Actually the 68000 and 68010 where 32bit Internal and 16bit External. I am not sure how you would have a datapath with more bits externally than internally, that'd be one hell of a design feat.

As for Amiga v's ST speeds. The chipset and motherboard design is a far greater determining factor in the performance of the machine. Personally I preffered the Amiga but then I am somewhat biased as I was working for Scala in the heyday of Amiga's and the "multimedia revolution".

Pneumatic Dryll
Mattman
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 18:46 Edited at: 24th Jul 2003 18:46
That's 400,000. 100,000 more than Raven said i believe.

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
empty
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 19:06
Not commenting the actual topic;
just a few words about the M680x00:
The 68000 was 32bit internal and 16bit external, with a 24 bit address bus that allowed accessing up to 16MB of memory.
In Amiga comoputers the 68000 CPUs ran at 7.14 Mhz, in Atari STs 8Mhz.
The maximum clock speed of the 68000 was 16 Mhz. The maximum clock speed of the 68060 was 66 Mhz.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 19:15
When announcing the speed of the Amiga series of computers please allow for PAL/NTSC in the same way you are for the ST

NTSC (in the industry we call this Never Twice Same Colour) is a smaller screen (eg: NTSC 320x200 in PAL is 320x256). This requires extra 'oomph' to display, not a lot, but I rather suspect that accounts for the 0.86Mhz differential using the same processor and quartz oscilliator as each other.

I would be interested to see if this accounts for the difference, because underclocking a CPU in such a manner really does seem like a strange thing to do, so I rather suspect the difference here is because you are comparing European specifications with American.

Pneumatic Dryll
empty
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 19:28
I don't think that it makes any difference whether it's 7.14 or 8MHz. It would make a difference if it was 12MHz (and that was my point here). I prefered the ST because it had an built-in MIDI interface and there was far better music software available for that machine.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jul 2003 23:35
mattman : 200,000 - 400,000 poly-per-scene
and only XBox developers actually push the polygon limits that far (and we all know how smooth XBox games are )

you'll find most developers will adverage out around the half-way mark, which as i said 250-300,000pps
and even you can see thats nothing on the 1,000,000+ the AthlonXP 2.0Ghz w/GeForceFX 5900ti is pushing.

and as i said with Athlon64 1.1 i could possibly push it even faster, so we're talking in the billions of polygons/sec rather than the millions.
especially at FPS of 60 - if you cut that value in half for a 0.03ms rendering time and you can as good as double that again for a console @ 30fps.

i wouldn't honestly want to push the technology that far, and infact most of the scenes i work with start with around 2,000,000 which is culled to around 800,000 using the Frustrum & GeoMipMap.

even still that is really pushing what currently technology is capable of doing, we add this with the fact that everything i do is a multipass.

for example you want to do MultiSampling (AntiAliasing) you have to add another render pass, which then halfs how many polygons you can comfortably push.

and currently my render passes include
Cull / Dynamics / Shadow / Global Light / Local Light / Shaders

So thats SceneCount*6Passes*Frames=PolygonsPerSecond
there are methods to get down the passes so you only have to calculate once, but it is actually faster to take two passes and calculate seperatley than a single pass.

The Global & Local Lights are done seperately simply for the reaosn that one works with a simplified Radiosity whereas the other has Dynamic properties
keeps everything cool, because the Global always has Volumetrics based on Shader particles (calculated spacially in the Dynamics then rendered in the Shader Pass)

i don't think i'd of been able to achieve even half as much as i have without AGP8x - that 4.1Gb bandwidth is a real godsend.
Means i have 128Mb of real video ram to work with + an allocated 128Mb from the system and thats for low end systems, for hi-end its closer to 256mb for both VRAM & SRAM
and i think my memoryless GeoMipMapping/Culling really helps out alot too, because i only have to buffer the actual used polygons at the time for rendering

got so many techniques i've picked up in this thing that just aid how much visuals can be pushed - half the engine itself is getting everything into a more acceptable level - the other half is the actual effects.

Should finally have some screenshots up in a month, as the NDA between myself and the press is closing - so the new site will be launched with first look screenshots. Then ya'll can see just how well or poorly the engine is being used
gonna get a dynamics video up too of Chloe fighting the LAPD, i'm sure i can record some pretty cool gameplay movements for everyone to have a butchers at.

Mattman
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Posted: 25th Jul 2003 00:28
So how many polys would you recomend in a scene?

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Jul 2003 02:07
depends entirely on the engine your pushing and the needs of everything else.

Ai / Physics / Graphics / Sound / Networking
they all have to be taken into account before you cna set true poly-per-scene counts.

generally for most DBP games i'd recommeneded you keep to around
100,000 ... 150,000 absolute max

because the nature of DBP itself you don't have the full resources of the processing power at your fingertips. So you've gotta keep things quite simple.

You have to make sure that games play well, not just look good ... most people can do one or the other because they focus on them - i'd recommend you focus on creating the game as an overall unit.

Work on the controls and then add graphics until it stops adding to the experience and then work on something else... always try to push the best for your current setup.

and remember to have a set mind lowend system in mind when your developing...

sure a P4-2.5 w/GeForce4 4800ti w/256Mb could push around 300,000pps with a relatively decent physics and shader engine...
but thats no good to man nor beast if you can't play it on a more common setup like P3-1.0 w/GeForce4mx 440 w/128Mb which can push considerably less!

Mattman
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Posted: 25th Jul 2003 05:40
Quote: "depends entirely on the engine your pushing "
I meant for nFinity

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
MikeS
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Posted: 25th Jul 2003 06:01
Quote: "generally for most DBP games i'd recommeneded you keep to around
100,000 ... 150,000 absolute max"


That should give a good enough estimate. Like he said though, it depends entirly on the PC you have.




Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
Mattman
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Posted: 25th Jul 2003 06:06
Well, i don't want to know for a pc. I want to know for nFinity.

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 25th Jul 2003 06:19
3

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Mattman
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Posted: 25th Jul 2003 17:20
3 polys? Hmm, litle tight but can be worked out!!!

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 02:35
well my game pushes the current nFinity setup pretty much to its max output ... but that said i wouldn't get your hopes up about developing for it until its released.

i mean you guys aren't even using DBP yet, you're not utilising shaders which quite frankly would cut your useable polycount right down.
you have alot of worrying questions from what i hear, suchas "What is an SDK?"

really mate if i were you i'd STRONGLY think about if you feel your ready for being given the oppertunity to develop on a retail market console, especially one that will be going head to head with currently strong competitors?
not to mention your going to have to learn an entirely new language for development in a matter of 2-3months time.

and to be perfectly honest, i'm not entirely sure i'm willing to give a development license to your team.
especially considering the first things we heard from you was "i don't think this is gonna happen... but i want to create a game for it."

we can't have developers which will envitably be representing FMTau Labs, have reservations about anything - we need teams which can actually get thier acts together and work on titles in a fully professional mannor.
This is why Banshee Studio's is the only guarenteed Developer from the non-professional sector.

and if you want to understand why then just visit thier site.
- back catalogue of games
- an active customerbase
- the ability to develop titles quickly & correct bugs quickly
- design of titles from start to finish
- development team who understands what they're doing

... the new site for FMTau will have a registration form for teams to become developers for FMTau. The new setup is really not going to be simple for people who are just getting into development, infact what we'll be wanting to know is what YOUR engine can push.
Not what our hardware could technically push, but your game as a develop what it will be capable of.
we'll be wanting demonstrations, screenshots, rolling demos...

if you want to develop on a system like this in a pretty much professional capacity we're going to be treating our developers LIKE professionals.
as we'll be financing alot of things come October, we want to know WHY we should be doing this for your particular team.
What makes your game more special than someone elses who could just as easily deserve it?

i did mention from the begining that, not everyone who applies to develop for us will actually get given a guarenteed license - only those who prove themselves worth our time and money.
in the past month alot of the professional companies have output more with the demo of DarkBASIC Pro we have circulating than all of the amature teams have shown us in even concepts.

i've had the chance to play some stunning demo's ... some Mechwarrior style ... an MMORPG which runs at a decent rate even on my current 56k ... even saw a shader racing game which has you racing around a very convincing brans hatch on a Ducatti 900.

i don't expect our amature developers to keep up with these guys, but i do expect you people to actually be pushing yourselves enough to have things to show that your are progressing.
concept art to show characters, perhaps concepts -> game models would be better... or demonstrations of a small section of the game working.
we said you'd be using DarkBASIC Professional for this, simply because DarkBASIC just can't honestly produce games which are upto competiting against PS2 or GC titles.
screenshots of sections of the game you have done... or blurbs on everything you plan to include.

so far no one except Bashee Studios has really even told us what they're working on - let along giving us any real beta's.
and yes i have recieved one from Mattman, it was in DB, increadibly slow for the polycount and collision. The models might be placemarkers - so have your 3d artist create the models, you should have your main characters mesh done by now - its been 2months!!
he should really be fully animated + have the village itself almost complete graphically.

i don't want developers who'll sit on thier asses waiting for the new patch or update for DBP - i don't want developers who don't even try to think thier way around a problem.

really don't want to rush the developers, but i also don't want these titles to be ready in 2006/2007 when the console itself should be replaced by and even better one!

Mattman
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 02:48
Raven, we are taking this seriously. And if you want to make fun of me because i don't know what an SDK is, then fine, go ahead.

Our team already has a cutom design document to pass along ideas and code. I have already statred on the main engine, and it is coming along nicely. Red Eye is experimenting with his new CShop to see whether we should use his matrix editor or CSop. Once he has a demo level avalible, i can put tha into my main code, along with Yellow's models he is currenty creating to send to xxxpetretxxx so he can create the music for our demo level which we will send to you with a request to become an official developer of the nFinity console.

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
Rob K
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 02:48 Edited at: 26th Jul 2003 02:52
Quote: "we can't have developers which will envitably be representing FMTau Labs, have reservations about anything"


Raven, you are inferring that you have professional developers willing to port projects to this "console". Please explain how you expect developers to have faith in a company which exists only as an internet forum, which has no track record, and whoose employee has no experience in the field of console game development.

Also, the fact that your WWW page points to a freebie Lycos member site, and that you are using an MSN email address, isn't going to win any brownie points either.

Banshee, an entity run by PD, has extremely limited manpower, and I seriously doubt that it is possible to create a serious console game with 2 people working on it.

Maybe you do have an ingenious solution to this rather stark problem, if so, I'd love to hear it.

You also have no support from TGC (I know this is fact) - which would be like Bungie writing Halo 2 without any support from Microsoft.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 04:42
Quote: "Raven, you are inferring that you have professional developers willing to port projects to this "console". Please explain how you expect developers to have faith in a company which exists only as an internet forum, which has no track record, and whoose employee has no experience in the field of console game development."


first point... is because we not an internet company, i've only kept a rudimentary site for people like you - who quite frankly can't actually afford the services we provide. Nor have we ever had the want nor need to hire a professional webmaster.
we're a registered UK & US company with bases set in Abbots Langley,Herts,UK - Chelmsford,Essex,UK - Westwood,CA,US
no point in paying for something you don't use, but now that we're finally getting some need for an internet site (especially with other development companies making a big deal out of them) ... then your likely to see the new mirrors once the new site is finished.

as for the second point. we have no track record that you know of. just because it isn't public knowlage what we have done over these past 6-7years doesn't mean there isn't a track record.
and it is very likely because we DON'T have an internet site that you don't actually know much about our company, what we do, what we've done, who we've done it for, etc...

just like you now doubt don't have much idea what Embalum Studios has done, or probably even heard of them. But they're a CG company in LA which has done the Cinematic effects in alot of current TV series you see... Suchas Dinotopia.
Just because you don't know any information doesn't mean there isn't any

as for the third point... you probably didn't know this, but we currently have 8 employee's worldwide.
2 of which include myself and Brent - we've also just hired a new person who will be dealing with all of the official FMTau business allowing us actual hands-on developers guys to get on with some real work rather than paperwork.

also the credibility for these larger companies doesn't just come from FMT being an industry name, but also from the fact that each of the employee's are people who also are pretty well known themselves.

look at it like this, a company like say Taratula who has been going for 10years ... they've released a few good titles like Oni & H&D for the PSOne - well they've got a little credibility right? That would be enough for a company to listen. But then how much more would they listen is say Kevin Cloud was part of the staff and was asking them personally? and not just him but also i dunno Gehard Vabraun ... with extra industry known names, suddenly those 10years experience with 1 or 2 titles don't look so bland - they look like something with some weight behind them.
And none of you know who exactly works for FMTau, you only know my full name - i might not be exactly a big name, however this isn't to say we don't have 3 or 4 members of the company who arn't.
and we're all realtively well known for our talents throughout companies.
We've all worked on the Windows/Playstation platforms, some for the GameCube already and a few for the DC, PS2 & XBox.

add this with the backing we have from the company actually developing the technology itself as these development companies have direct contact with them for new specs and everything.

Quote: "You also have no support from TGC (I know this is fact) - which would be like Bungie writing Halo 2 without any support from Microsoft."


we've not asked for DBS's support, and no-one is entirely sure about the direction it would take with it.
this is nothing like Bungie writing Halo2 without Microsofts support, i mean for one FMTau are not owned by DBS. Nor did we ever say that DBP would DEFINATELY be the language we'd supply, or say that it would be the ONLY language we'd support. Infact in our forums we noted we were also talking to the creators of Blitz3D and PureBasic to see if they wanted to created versions which could be downloaded for the machine.

The only reason that DBP was suggested from the start was becuase it was the best language for the task in my view and the view of others. It showed the hardware developer what could be done with a BASIC language didn't have to be something as silly as YaBASIC.

the mandate is still the same here, if we decide to go with DBP or not is upto us really - and if DBS say No when we ask, then fair enough not entirely bothered ... i'm sure we can get someone else.
It won't bother any of our developers, as some are programming in C++ others in DBP ... there is no licence to say they can't and the OS supports Win32 / DirectX / OpenGL / OpenAL / NOTA so really there is no problem in actually running the software once complete no matter what the developers use.

as for Banshee, from what i've seen they have many more than just two active employees -
Nick Igoe, Andy Igoe, Kevin Bolt, Rachel (dont member the last name)

each do specific tasks and do soem good work... if you happen to know something i don't then please feel free to share, because over the past few weeks i've seen for myself how fast they all work and how well they can produce that work. I feel confident that they can possibly pull of a few good budget titles aimed more at gamers of a similar ilk to Ermes.

Mattman
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 04:57
Quote: "just because it isn't public knowlage what we have done over these past 6-7years doesn't mean there isn't a track record.
"


Well, if we don't know what is going on, then we don't have to believe, do we? I mean, come on Raven, I am a firm believer after talking to Eric lately and if i hadn't, i would still not belive this.

Quote: "We've all worked on the Windows/Playstation platforms, some for the GameCube already and a few for the DC, PS2 & XBox."


Seriously? If true, then i definitly am a firm believer in this.

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
Mattman
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 05:03
One more thing, is it going to be pro only, as i remember you once said enhance can work also... did you?

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
Rob K
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 05:12
Quote: "we're a registered UK & US company with bases set in Abbots Langley,Herts,UK - Chelmsford,Essex,UK - Westwood,CA,US"


So I would find them under Registered UK businesses (Company House) then? - No I can't search right now because it is past midnight.

Raven, just in case anyone else wasn't aware, here are a load of unmet release dates for products which were supposed to come in Q1 of 2003 (submitted to www.darkbasicplanet.com)

Ciyanna Worlds Gx - FMTau Labs LLC - World/BSP Developer
Ciyanna Games Editor - FMTau Labs LLC - IDE
Ciyanna Gamestudio - FMTau Labs LLC - Development Studio

[aha! - I have finally realised how you will worm your way out of this one. Bring up a new product and hopefully everyone will forget about the old one]

Why have I posted this? - Because I think it is unfair to get other people's hopes up, get them to make a project, and then it goes to waste.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 05:25
our company history doesn't really have any balance to what is going on right now.

that'd be like saying in 5years time that DarkBASIC has something to do with DarkBASIC '08 ... when you know they have nothing to do with each other.
Sure you might like to know that DBS had worked on languages before, but would it honestly matter if they had or hadn't?

not many people know that Fred who developed PureBasic has worked on numerous languages before - does that somehow make PB any better knowing that he had worked on other language?

i really don't care if you believed or not in the project, the actual fact of what is being put up here is HOW you denoted your believe and disbelief in the project.
If you were just reserved about it, and posed those reservations to me about it to get actual answers - that would've been cool.
But you made a post saying how you DID NOT believe in this at all, and then in the same posted wanted to develop a title for it.

This show a totally lack of respect for what is trying to be achieved, infact your continuing attitude towards the whole project as a whole worries me about not just why you would want to develop for this but why you should be allowed to.

no doubt a few years down the line you could develop for the console, but your trying to be a flagship developer - and quite frankly you have to not only be confidant in what your developing for, but also what your developing about.
For FMTau & nVidia, the flagship title will be a case of make or break - we're NOT going to rock the boat or have anything that can come back and bite us in the ass.

we not saying you should have 100% faith from the start, i doubt anyone has 100% faith except those of us who are actually trying to get this idea from the drawing board to reality.
all we're saying here is that we need people who are actually willing to have a go at it.

there is a difference between reservations about something and outright denial. i'm sure anyone who actually read the posts that mattman has made and the emails that have been received here - that you would agree that he is just not ready for something like this.

we're not going to treat you like kids here, you can't have 100% of the information ... or know exactly what can do what.
Games development is about producing a title which is fun to play, its not about technicals or knowing how much the system will cost and wieght.

as a developer your ONLY consern is ... "Will people like this game?"
everything else doesn't really matter, especially not to people who obviously don't know what they're doing when it comes to the more technical side of things.
If you came to me with a Shader Demonstration that was GeForceFX only, and were asking me questions about shaders - and questions which needed a response that indicates to me that your actualy understand enough to be able to comprhend the answer.
Then you will be helped...

but we're not here to explain to you, what a shader is. How to use it. How to program it. What you can possible do with it. Some examples of what you can do with it. What cards you need to actually run it. How you need to actually run it with other code. etc...

we are NOT a baby sitting service here, you MUST understand roughly what your doing here. I have my own titles to think about, just as everyone else at FMTau - we aren't here for 100% technical support, we're here to help answer your general questions. We're also here to act as your producers once you have a game to the level where you can go gold or atleast Beta.
you need to be setting dates for Alphas, Betas, Demos & Golds... not us, YOU ARE!

we have already said once, work towards the PC setup of a
1Ghz / 256Mb Ram / GeForce4 4200ti / 16bit DxSound / 256bit Broadband / Dx9 / DBP

that is your ONLY goal right now - everything else conserning development is UPTO YOU! not us.
we're not going to help you find new team members, we're not going to say if there is a memorycard or not, we're not going to say if your nFinity can do a backflip on demand... THESE FEATURES DO NOT MATTER TO THE GAME DEVELOPMENT!

MikeS
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 05:29
@Mattman
I believe he said somewhere only DBP


@Raven
So I'm assuming this will include support for Visual Basics? I'll wait for an official anwser before I try anything. Well, tonights gonna be a long night, as I will spend a couple hours learning about shaders.



@Rob K
Either way, whether it's real or fake, I'll still make my game, and even if I start now, it probebly won't be finished until the nfinity is out.And if it isn't out, there's nothing to loose because I'll still have my game.I still have some confidence in the nfinity project though.



Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 05:32
Quote: "Raven, just in case anyone else wasn't aware, here are a load of unmet release dates for products which were supposed to come in Q1 of 2003 (submitted to www.darkbasicplanet.com)
Ciyanna Worlds Gx - FMTau Labs LLC - World/BSP Developer
Ciyanna Games Editor - FMTau Labs LLC - IDE
Ciyanna Gamestudio - FMTau Labs LLC - Development Studio"


actually they were pushed back, but insider never updated the site.
also i kinda fell out with the VB developer who was making the UIs for them.
WorldsGx was released, buggy but released - not sure if i still have it on the ftp.

although i've said they're on the backburner, i've not touched the code for any of them since December - and i don't actually plan to either. Good as dropped really.

Rob K
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 12:42 Edited at: 26th Jul 2003 14:42
[Whoops!]

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 14:25
... i don't believe i was actually addressing you Rob - infact i thought i was talking about mattman.

unless somehow you are mattman through some split annoying personality

Rob K
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 14:43 Edited at: 26th Jul 2003 14:48
OK, OK. Never mind. - You've said so many mad things I actually thought that maybe you had accused me of that.

As empty posted below, FMTau doesn't show up under Company House. Odd. (JFYI, The Game Creators and all other registered companies that I know are listed there)

empty
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 14:43
Quote: "So I would find them under Registered UK businesses (Company House) then?"

No, you wouldn't.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
Mattman
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Posted: 26th Jul 2003 15:14
o.k. Raven, i get the picture now. I just was trying to get on the inside of the project while i could.

and about me not being able to do this:
I agree. I can't do this alone. That's why i have put together a team to do this.

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
MikeS
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 03:13
::Bump::

@Mattman

Mattman, do you have pro? If you don't and are using classic or enhanced it may cause a couple problems.Although, we still may be able to use what code you have now, and transfer it onto someone (like me) who has DBP.

@Raven
Hmmmmm, so I suppose I'll have to be using Darkbasic Pro for most of my projects if I want a shot of developing for nfinity.I'm cooking up a room demo, that will hopefully impress someone on the forums. Anyways, I've got a long road ahead, and I gotta get back to work.
Especially since I only have 1 month before school, and I'd like to get some kinda alpha out by September-October.

@all
Well, like I said, I was gonna learn a little about shaders, so here is something that I recommend to most everyone.
[href]http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20020116/shaders-10.html
[/href]It gives a nice summary of shaders, what they can do for you, and compatibility.A must for everyone to at least skim through.

Like I said, I'm gonna be really busy working on my title(s)(check my post about female/male character for some early info.), and I've got a website to build. So to anyone else who reads this, I probebly
won't be on the forums as much(still daily though), but you can catch me on MSN, during most parts of the day.



Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
Mattman
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 04:17
As soon as i am sure that we can get developed for nFinity i will upgrade to pro.

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
MikeS
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 04:51
Mattman, we'll be able to develop for the nfinity if we can WOW, them with our game, so you better start saving for Pro now. We can't afford any set backs. Even as we work full time, this game is still gonna be another 2-3 months, I'm guessing until we have a playable beta. I'm also very busy with my website and my other project, so it won't be until about 2 weeks(when website finishes), until I can start to really work on the racing project for more than 20 minutes a day.
Though I have convidence, that we'll at least finish the racing game, I cannot be sure if we will be able to compete against the nfinity competition. As Raven has mentioned many times in the forums (though I won't quote him), we really need to use shaders to get full potential on this project, and make it look and play more than it really is. So we'll need some outstanding coding, models and levels, along with everything else. Though we're off too a good start , we'll just have to work till the end.



Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 05:04
yellow, developing in Pro isn't really a requirement - i'm sure you could make a good title in DarkBASIC/Enhanced still ... but really to the level of what you'd want to show off what the console is capable of?

i mean i've programmed alot of DLLs for Enhanced to extend what it was capable of - but its just to slow and limited to be able to really make any impact.

not saying that say in 5-6months time we won't take on a few token amature developers to release titles, but even then we'll need quality that the end-user is actually going to want to buy.
Titles like Victory Road are nice, but really compared to the likes of Midnight Racer2 on the PS2 - which do you think people are going to want to play?

graphics don't make a game good ... but they are what sell them, and DBP is actually capable of offering those graphics. Especially under Update5.

Mattman
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 05:09
I have the $$$. I might as well do it...

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
MikeS
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 05:16
I know what you mean when you say development under pro isn't a requirement. But in a way it is if you want to compare it to something like say, midnight racer 2. Sure you could do some great things in dbc, or db enhanced, but with Pro, and especially after U5.
Things could really start rolling.

For example, take a look at Fur Effect.
http://www.gamediscovery.com/development/menu/projects/about/about.asp?Project=1&pname=Fur%20Effect
It really looks like a marketable game and it's made in DBP.Although it has been in production since 2000, according to Game Discovery.

We pretty much need to shoot for those standards if we want to "sell" a game, whether on the nfinity or shareware, or wherever.
Like you said though, graphics usually sell the game, as a lot of people don't read EGM,PC gamer, or watch X-Play to find out which game is best.

Well, whatever we can push, we must do.(Mattman better be reading this, lol) Anyways, I'm going back to modeling for a little while.

Well, along another topic, how's the database for the new sites coming? I'm a bit curious to see them(hopefully soon )


" So much to do, so little Time "


Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 05:31
database is comming along... guess a problem with not knowing MySql or php4 very well tends to help alot of bug crawl in.
especially security issue ones which will be the biggest problem.

hope to have a temp "look-at-me" kinda site for some tech demos.
almost completed my Tyrannosuarous Rex one, just a few more things to go - i'm quite impressed with the speed of the Software Shaders i got working too ... only problem is that its 80Mb and requires 64mb of Video Ram (pah! you want good looking Tech demos it costs )

as for Fur effect, yeah that quality is exactly what is being looked for.
As i said i don't care if you develop in DarkBASIC/Enhanced if you want to - if you can produce titles which look and play well, then you'll be in with a good shot.
But i doubt most here can achieve anywhere close to what CD-Software have without DBPro ... i'm not saying that anyone is particularly bad, but i don't think many here understand how much knowlage and skill it takes to go into titles like that.

and no doubt if Fur Effect was in DBP with Shaders you could bet your bottom dollar it would look at sweet as any title currently being released as these guys look as if they've put alot of work into this to make it possible.

Mattman
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 05:49
Ahh!!! I know this is not the thing to say after what you said erlier but, I just could not understand that shaders explination!!! Could someone summerize it for me...

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
MikeS
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 06:06
What shaders?

The shaders from fur effect that Raven was talking about?

Me telling you to use shaders?

http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20020116/shaders-10.html
I think this link gives some good information on shaders.
(even if you only understand half of it.)



Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
Mattman
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 06:08
That's where i went! I just don't understand how they are made, what thy do and why they are used!!!

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
MikeS
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 06:10
Read through that link I've give you. It tells you what shaders are, how they're processed, and what they're useful for in games.



Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
Mattman
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 06:17
I'm starting to get it...

---Mattman
DID YOU KNOW THAT ???
Rob K
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 15:46
Lee reckons it WON'T be possible to get working fur shaders under Update 5 - because not all of the info needed will be available.

MikeS
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 21:26
Gah, that annoys me. Anyway, I don't limit myself to one programming language, and neither should anyone else. So at least the shaders will be important for some other languages, if not DBP at the moment.



Yellow:Wanna publish my game microsoft, cuz i no u rich so...Can I have my bag of money now?
Microsoft: *snicker* Tip of the month-Microsoft will never(probebly) publish your game.
Rob K
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Posted: 27th Jul 2003 23:02
@yellow

DBP can use shaders, but fur shaders are complicated. The ATI RenderMonkey fur shader has ELEVEN render passes, and about one thousand lines of code. No wonder not even DBP can reduce that to one line of code.

Some of the "one command effects" I have seen in DBP include wobble shader, improved bump mapping, metal mapping, improved cube mapping, per-pixel lighting, bubble shader, ocean water shader.

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