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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Official FPSC Migration Discussion Thread

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Soviet176
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Posted: 7th Jan 2010 20:49
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Quote: "well they deserve an update...
"


Yea... honestly I think it will be the last thing we ever get. I highly doubt anyone is going to make a mod for x10 like blue. Kinda sucks I feel like we were thrown into the dark and left.

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Marc Steene
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Posted: 7th Jan 2010 22:13
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Quote: "I highly doubt anyone is going to make a mod for x10 like blue."


Seeming as the source for X10 isn't available, no one is going to be making mods for it.


FPSC MIGRATION: http://bit.ly/5I8LYO
FPSC NUCLEAR EXPLOSION: http://bit.ly/67v8GI
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Bigsnake
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Posted: 7th Jan 2010 22:24
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Quote: "well they deserve an update..."


to right we do , x10 is sooooooo buggy

http://image.fps-files.com/images/42SIG.jpg[/img]
Vista, Amd Athlon 7750 (64 bit + Dual Core), ATI Readon HD 4870 1gb Edition, 4gb Ram.
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Soviet176
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Posted: 7th Jan 2010 22:58
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Quote: "Seeming as the source for X10 isn't available, no one is going to be making mods for it."


Well lee did announce that he would release the source code after the 110 update I believe.

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Bugsy
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Posted: 8th Jan 2010 02:36
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If lee took:

X10's ability to handle lots of characters
X10's ability to have particles
X10's sliders
X10's AI
X10's ragdoll

and

X9's graphics
X9's X9 ability

and added dark voices, limb control of characters, "loosened" up the players movement, and increased the map size, then what other engines do you think we could top?



to fenix mod!
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Changes
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Posted: 8th Jan 2010 14:58 Edited at: 8th Jan 2010 15:09
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The portals in the old X10 + x9 Suck bigtime,

I was wondering if you could redo the portal system wich renders half the map behind a door when its unnesecary(probably spelt it wrong). You will see what i mean in my images...



This is what i mean about careless rendering which could sacrafice significant processing power. THe shaded area shows what should not be rendered from the players P.O.V.



So do you understand and will this be possible???

Thanks

jamie
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Nike
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 17:42
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haha, when i made my last post to this forum, i had my old pc with xp, now i have newer one woth vista, i think i'mam buy the x10 now.


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Marc Steene
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Posted: 17th Jan 2010 03:52
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UPDATE 17/01/10

FPSC X10 V1.10 BETA 3 has been released.

V1.10 BETA 3 - 16/01/10:

* NOTE: Fixed Roman Script (removing RUN) solving character float off floor issue (Model Pack 27 to follow)
* Increased intensity of dynamic light component by five to match equal sized static light (no dynamics bug)
* Added code to activate NORAGDOLL for all legacy model packs (designed for X9) to maintain consistency
* NOTE: Above 'character based' packs include model pack 4,cartoonfantasypack,dungeonpack,egyptian characters,fantasy characters,fantasypack,freaks and abominations,medievalpack,romanpack,tropical pack,vikingpack
* Added code to automatically copy over DDS/JPG/TGA/PNG texture files from the used legacy character folders
* Fixed bug causing LOADEDWEAPON flag in Entity Properties to fail, ammo is pre-loaded now when flagged
* Increased intensity of dynamic component of dynamic entities as well as above static universe geometry
* Added code from X9 fix which allows dynamic lighting data to retain consistency between quick and slow builds
* Fixed code to allow zero-textured static entities to be cloned for universe construction (invisible MP3 static entities)
* Changed code for ally control key detection to use scancode instead (caps lock no longer affects F, G and H keys)
* Fixed problem of initial looping sounds having zero volume (entity volume array only filled after initial script run)
* Fixed bug so characters now obey their PATROL AREA command from the AI (and move around randomly at start)
* Fixed rare bug causing X10 to crash on reloading a saved game from within standalone executable (old texture ptr sprite)
* Fixed issue of static geometry being FLAT SHADED, now uses X9-style curved shaded system using original mesh normals
* Added appearantigravity.fpi and code fix to allow antigravplatform to use this new script to use waypoint movement
* NOTE: FPS Creator was not designed for Windows 7 and any reports from Win7 cannot be actioned (Vista Only Product)
* Amended player-influenced platform standing code to perform accurately so can stand on same spot on moving platforms
* Prevented AI characters (enemy and neutrals) from cancelling waypoint following when they exceed their max range
* Augmented Save/Load data structure to include more states, object frames, player vertical view, gun view and AI/waypoints
* When reload a saved game, the selected weapon is now visible as it was when the level was saved
* When reload a saved game, the player verticle angle (pitch) is retained in the saved position and restored

Also, an interesting line taken from the topic:

Quote: "* There are no plans to add any mod code to X10. Any future modding activity will be focused on the Migration Version"



FPSC MIGRATION: http://bit.ly/5I8LYO
FPSC NUCLEAR EXPLOSION: http://bit.ly/67v8GI
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science boy
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2010 21:38 Edited at: 23rd Jan 2010 21:43
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all i want is my product X10 to work as should ( i know being worked on) but even when beta finished and the migration is finished, i would love them to do a mod that has more scripts made (just how much x9 scripts will work in x10 mode) and a bigger area, and a classic inventory and last but not least a none linear level build so i can make the map even bigger if ya get my drift.

not a sketch device (why?)
or a button for store.

i would happily pay for a mod pack of extras. i think i would pay up to 40 pounds no problem as it unlocks more options to creators. i hope they find new ways for me to spend my money.

an unquenchable thirst for knowledge of game creation!!!
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Soviet176
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2010 23:17
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I am not so sure I see this whole migration thing as being fair. Why are all the features from x10 going into something else? Also I don't like how tgc through x10 out in the open and has not done nearly what they have done for x9. I find it stupid that we payed for x10 and we can't have it open source so we can do what we want to do. Why can x9 users mod their code? As for as I see (x10 being a limited as it is) we won't ever be able to do anything with x10. I sit back and think about it now. How much of a waste is actually is. I am not talking about money, I am talking about a project. I have talked to some people about lee releasing the source for x10. Which somewhere in the first post he said he would. People said they could not make mods because it would be codded in db pro x10 which he wont be releasing.

How is this migration going to work? is everyone going to have to pay for another thing? or people who purchased x9 and x10 going to get a copy?

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Flatlander
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 00:09 Edited at: 24th Jan 2010 00:12
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Quote: "Why are all the features from x10 going into something else?"


Not all the features are going into the migration. Only the ones that can work with X9 and perhaps not even all of those.

X10 was a waste of time; but that was not totally TGC's fault. Microsoft was touting VISTA and DirectX10 as the best thing that came down the pike and was wooing all of the developers to get on board. TGC was not the only one who got on board but they did in a big way and as a small company they paid the price. If VISTA would have been successful things would have been very different.

Obviously, Lee would have to release the X10 executable of DB that can compile FPSC X10. If he doesn't want to release it as game development software (that means he would have to support it) maybe he can make it so that it's only function is to compile FPSC. That way he can release the X10 source code.

Lee is the main coder and perhaps the only coder that is working on DB and FPSC. Saying that, we probably need to cut him a little slack.

Quote: "or people who purchased x9 and x10 going to get a copy?"


All who own X9 will get a copy. However, I'm not sure if those who own X10 will get a copy. X9 will only work with Direct X9. FPSC X10 already has all the features that X9 will have so I'm not sure what the point in getting the X9 migration version would be. After typing that there is one additional feature that is being added to X9 and that is the "educational/non-violent" feature. Lee will have to decide what he is going to do with that in X10.

The bottom line is for everyone not to get really bent out of shape by listening to rumors but be patient and wait for official announcements and the actual products. As Bart Simpson has said, "Don't have a cow, man."

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OliveTreeGames
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Soviet176
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 01:40
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hehe very true, and I respect lee a lot. The problem I see is that X10 does "have" so much potential if only he would release all the material to the x10 users like he did x9. The only reason I am a little skeptical is, I like others have payed the 70$ to get x10, why is it people who pay the 30$ for x9 get even "some" features that x10 has. I just think it would not be fair for the people who payed less get what we have payed more for. I would love to make a mod for x10 if I had the source code

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Flatlander
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Posted: 24th Jan 2010 02:04 Edited at: 24th Jan 2010 02:06
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Yes, that has been a big debate and I personally would pay for a migration version.

However, as I see it, that would mean Lee wouldn't have the advantage of all the beta testers that he now enjoys through the forums. If he releases it in small beta pieces through updated versions he has his own built-in beta testers. Albeit, this is probably not the best way but the most economical for TGC.

I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't have the concerns you do because they are well deserved. I'm just trying to see it from a small business man's perspective. I hope in the end things will be worked out for all.

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OliveTreeGames
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Soviet176
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Posted: 25th Jan 2010 22:14
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Oh know doubt, I think that if he were to release a migration engine that he charge both x10 and x9 users. That way he would make more. It would be fare.

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Nickydude
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 14:13 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 14:15
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Lee has very kindly consented to answer a few questions about the migration version but you MUST EMAIL ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE TO ME, DON'T POST THEM HERE! I will compile them into an email for Lee to look at. Please mark the subject "FPSC Migration Questions" otherwise they may go overlooked.

Please keep the questions short and sweet, Lee is a very busy man.



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The Master Dinasty
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 21:21 Edited at: 26th Jan 2010 21:24
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Quote: " I personally would pay for a migration version."

Ragdoll ? ill pay for THAT!!!! Anyone know this for sure?

EDIT: Omg OMG omg 666 Messages on this thread number of the beast wahh
i must be evil muhahahahahah

-Massap2

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Nickydude
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 01:24
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So no one is interested in hearing what will be in the migration version from the very man who's creating it?



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Scene Commander
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 01:30
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Quote: "So no one is interested in hearing what will be in the migration version from the very man who's creating it? "


I sent you an email yesterday. Did you not get it?
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Nickydude
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 02:30
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Yes, and you are the only one to ask any questions!



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Scene Commander
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 03:19
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Quote: "Yes, and you are the only one to ask any questions!"


*Rant Warning*

I'm saddened by that... I think this is becoming a major issue for the forum as a whole at the moment.. Too many people want results but aren't prepared to make any effort for that! "

*Rant Over*

Does Anyone else have any questions for Lee?
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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 03:19
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I do. Sent Nickydude an email.

"And we played the first thing that came to our heads...Just so happened to be... the best song in the world...

it was the best song in the world..."
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Marc Steene
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 03:54
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Thanks Nickydude, I sent an email.


[b]FPSC MIGRATION: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142497&b=21
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Flatlander
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 04:00 Edited at: 28th Jan 2010 04:00
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*** Another Rant Warning ***

Come on guys, you can find the time to whine and complain in this thread without knowing exactly what Lee is going to do but you don't have time to send Nickydude an email? You'll never know for sure if you don't ask; but, maybe you would just rather whine and complain.

*** Rant Over ***

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OliveTreeGames
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Kerrby
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 11:00
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Sent off my email.


WizMod Developer.
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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 21:44
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@F l a t l a n d e r

I sent an email, and never posted in this board beforehand.

But I see what you mean.

"And we played the first thing that came to our heads...Just so happened to be... the best song in the world...

it was the best song in the world..."
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science boy
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Posted: 30th Jan 2010 16:08
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did you get my email nickydude?

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Pink Panther
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Posted: 1st Feb 2010 20:27
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Hi,
I'm relatively new to the forum but have learned alot about FPSC and it's capabilities from all of you. Thanks for that. Not very computer savy so I have a question about the migration. I currently use FPSC version 1 with windows vista and direct x10. Will I be able to use migration without having to install lastest version of direct X9? I have some reservations about doing that because I have heard about problems with running x9 and x10 together. I can't use update version 1.16 though because I don't have latest direct x9 (frustrating) Any input would be appreciated.
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Scene Commander
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2010 12:40 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2010 20:48
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@Pink Panther.

Welcome to the forums.

I assume you're using FPSCx10. FPSCx9 doesn't run on Vista without directx9. Because of the almost complete lack of compatibility between x9+x10 I doubt you'll be able run the migration without Directx9. This is something you can blame Microsoft for fully as they encouraged many people and companies to upgrade secure in the knowledge they had no intention of supporting Directx10 in the long term. However, to the best of my knowledge, both FPSCx10 and FPSCx9 run under Windows 7 with little or no problems. I hope that helps.

@Marc Steene.

I hope you don't mind I've taken the liberty of updated this thread from the latest news-letter.

Quote: "In addition to continuing the work to bring V117 closer to a beta test, we invested some time setting up the SVN repository to eventually allow the latest version of the source code to be viewed and eventually modified by external modders and interested parties. The benefit here is that you get to see the state of the code almost daily as we develop it internally, and pull down the code at any time to make your own builds to check out new fixes and features as they happen. For more information on how to use Subversion and the whole 'open source' concept, check out this issue's tip of the month. Using this new window into the soul of FPS Creator X9, you will be able to glimpse at early features being developed and even test them out months before they even appear in a public beta. This means when a new migration feature emerges, the first place you are going to find it is through the open source SVN repository. We are also strongly considering appointing a number of community members who are active in the FPSC modding scene to become full-access contributors, which means they each have the ability to submit changes to the official source code, which of course means those features and fixes make it into the final official version. Don't expect months of mod work pasted into the official engine overnight as it will be conducted in carefully considered steps, but the potential will exist to blend the best features of your favourite free mod into the mainstream engine. One final benefit is that two heads are better than one, so imagine what five heads could accomplish!
"
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Marc Steene
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2010 13:14
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Thanks Scene Commander. That SVN repository sounds like a great idea. I'll update my first post.


[b]FPSC MIGRATION: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142497&b=21
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Pink Panther
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2010 16:28
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Thanks Scene Commander, that does help.
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Nickydude
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 00:55
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Lee has now kindly answered your questions:

Can we have a confirmed features list, there's a lot of rumors going around?
LEE: There is no confirmed list, which probably explains the wild rumours. In fact, the migration work has already started in V116 (spot the features) and will continue in V117. The features we chose are going to be based on those that fit into the existing X9 code well, and anything very X10 centric will remain an X10 only feature.

Is there any possibility of putting in 3rd party mods? None specifically, but is there any interest whatsoever?
LEE: There have been many direct and indirect requests to insert mod features into X9 (the migration), but the work required to integrate and test them would be quite absorbing. A new plan is being hatched to open source X9 in Google Code so select top modders can have direct contribution status, and actually shape the official version moving forward. More on this as it happens.

What features from X10 will be integrated? Ragdoll? Bloom?...
LEE: As stated in a previous answer, only those features which fit well with X9. Although bloom is an easy feature, it requires X9 to split its camera rendering which might not be the best way forward for the X9 source code. Such decisions will be made on this basis, and there are no confirmed features to list from X10 only that some of the X10 code base might come in useful.

Is the migration a high priority or are you still working on X10 and DBP?
LEE: We are in the process of wrapping up X10, and making sure it delivers the advertised features in a solid and reliable way, plus the addition of the Game Creator Store and ensuring many of the older legacy media works to some degree in X10. DBP is always in a state of constant development, but we are making moves to open up the DBP source to a wider developer audience, which means we will have more time to focus on those features we feel will make X9 (the migration) even better.

What is the pricing structure for the migration version? Will it be free to owners of both X9 and X10?
LEE: Yes, if you are a customer of X9 or X10, the migration will simply be a sequence of free updates (V117, V118, e.t.c) as you have come to expect from TGC. This is also partly why you are not going to see every feature of X10 inside the migration. Adding these features is time consuming and expensive, and we did not want to create this cost only to pass it on. The X9 migration will grow organically, and with the help of an open source policy, we feel it can only grow stronger.

How realistic is it that the engine will be upgraded to include Ragdoll and if so, what priority does he give this feature given that a lot of the work now seems to be taking the engine away from realism and heading down the route of an engine aimed at a younger market and those would with to develop software for that target group.
LEE: It's true rag doll is very much frowned upon, not only from parents but institutes who want to teach game creation but don't want to portray violence of any kind. In fact, adding rag doll in some countries automatically ranks your title as a 17+. We prefer to focus on features that benefit the majority, and sometimes politics steps in to demote certain ideas. That said, as an open source engine with an open source ODE DBP module, it should not be too difficult for a contributing modder to add rag doll using the X10 system as a basis for comparison.

Will the X10 source code ever be released?
LEE: We are strongly considering this. The idea that works best for us would be to release a 'kit' which includes the DirectX 10 version of DBP, the latest V110 source to X10 and some basic documentation to give you a step by step on how to compile your own X10 executables. There would be absolutely no official support to this code, and it would be made available for those who can struggle through the code without help from TGC.

Will the migration contain any user mods?
LEE: The initial release of the code will not contain any mods. Once third party contributors get involved, it is very likely user mods will make their way into the official version.

Do we have information on the stock media? The X10 media was much better than X9, so do we have any idea on the quality of stock media?
LEE: There are no plans to change the media for the migration version.

Will multiplayer be available? If so, is going to be more functional than previous versions?
LEE: There are no plans to improve the multiplayer features.

Will the scripting code be the same?
LEE: The FPI scipting will naturally be based on X9, with perhaps a few new FPI actions and commands for new features.

Is there anything it comes with, like new exporters, editors, importers, etc.
LEE: There are no plans for new editors, exporters or importers in the migration.

Will the building process be more refined?
LEE: There may be some changes to the build process, but it may not be noticeably significant.

Will there be Individual Entity Timers? He spoke of their usefulness a couple of upgrades ago and they seem to be a very simple addition compared to the many other requests.
LEE: There are no plans to add per-entity timers in the migration version, though it should be easy enough for a third party modder to add this.



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darimc
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 01:19
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So the migration is essentially just more of the normal upgrades and bug fixes? Not really any new features to look forward to...

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Nickydude
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 01:42
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Seems very much so I'm afraid. Hopefully when it's opened up to third party modders then I think it will really become something special, especially if they get help from TGC themselves.



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Thraxas
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 02:12 Edited at: 7th Feb 2010 02:23
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Wow, I'm a bit lost for words. Some of the things that I, and I assume many others, thought would be part of the migration (based on information given to us earlier by Lee) are not going to be implemented at all

I have a feeling that some members of the community, who have been waiting patiently for these things to be implemented, are going to take it as a bit of a slap in the face.

I think it's a shame. The only thing I have been waiting for is ragdoll and I guess that's never going to happen in X9 now
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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 02:25
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Man. Bummer. I was really hoping for some...better news.

Well, I guess its good we are part of a community where the guys on top will not only listen to us but answer honestly. I guess I like this better then figuring out the hard way.

I was really hoping for a huge, sweeping new product that would be separate from the normal FPSC X9...I guess the "migration" is just a slow addition of X10 features...

Again, bummer...

"And we played the first thing that came to our heads...Just so happened to be... the best song in the world...

it was the best song in the world..."
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darimc
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 02:36
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Quote: "I guess the "migration" is just a slow addition of X10 features..."
Not even that. Majority of x10 features will be left out.

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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 02:39 Edited at: 7th Feb 2010 02:56
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Yeah, you're right...

Gosh, this is depressing... I feel...Well, sad...

Migration version: Some new features. Get it now.

Sorry. I couldn't muster the happiness to use an exclamation point on that last bit...

"And we played the first thing that came to our heads...Just so happened to be... the best song in the world...

it was the best song in the world..."
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Kerrby
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 03:59
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Wow. All I can say is wow.

First off, thanks for answering the questions Lee.

Second off, I'm a bit disappointed.

This is what I gather from the answers:
No confirmed list of features.
No bloom.
No ragdoll.
It's still going to be free but it won't just be one update. It'll be just a string of gradual updates.
Migration won't contain any user mods.
No extra stock media.
No multiplayer improvements.
No new exporters/importers/editors.
No individual entity timers.

So from all that, it seems like we're not getting anything. The migration was announced two years ago and all we've heard is a bunch of things we're not getting (which is practically everything).


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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 04:06
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Yeah... This is...Not what I pixtured the migration as. I mean, the stock media thing is understandable (my question) but I was really hoping for improved multiplayer (also my question) as the version we have now is seriously lacking.

Man... The migration is basically a series of disappointments...

"And we played the first thing that came to our heads...Just so happened to be... the best song in the world...

it was the best song in the world..."
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Marc Steene
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 04:06 Edited at: 7th Feb 2010 04:07
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I won't say I'm not disappointed by the news (because I am). But thanks Nickydude for asking the questions, I hope you don't mind but I added them to my first post. I've also updated my first post to put the previous feature list in code tags which I thought would be in the migration (based on previous questions answered by Lee) so people are not misleaded. However, I think this could still be a big step forward in FPSC history - with great modders like hockeykid adding to the source code, the product can only get better.

What are everyone else's thoughts?


[b]FPSC MIGRATION: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142497&b=21
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Kill3r7
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 04:08
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For Me is not necessary the "Migration" to X10, Because of the Dx10 pipeline, library, tesselation, instancing and others The FPS is dropped.

Intel Core 2 duo e7300 2.66ghz (Wolf-Dale) edition. Geforce 9800GTX+ Plus Edition OC. 4Gb of memory ram. 500HDD
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Kerrby
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 04:08
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Atleast you can update the first post again Marc with:

"Migration features:
None"




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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 04:11
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Yes, we could make something amazing with mods... Oh wait, we already have. I don't think this will be anything big. I think just a few extra features, and that's all. I don't think it will be much in terms of mods, becuase with little to no differences, there won't be much to add on.

Ho-hum. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

"And we played the first thing that came to our heads...Just so happened to be... the best song in the world...

it was the best song in the world..."
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Marc Steene
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 04:15
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Quote: "Migration features:
None"


Funny, but cruel. At least the product will still be supported, I guess the stock core engine will always remain the same with a few nice tweaks now and then, and our future relies on mods.


[b]FPSC MIGRATION: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142497&b=21
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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 04:18
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Yeah. Not at all what I envisioned. But you know, I think it's not what TGC had in mind either. I think they really wanted to do a sweeping change, but then with the economy jumping off the cliff, I guess they had to reprioritize. Oh well. Maybe one day...

"And we played the first thing that came to our heads...Just so happened to be... the best song in the world...

it was the best song in the world..."
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Thraxas
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 04:23
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Quote: "No bloom."


To be fair Lee did say way back in 2008 that we wouldn't be getting bloom... "You won't get the fancy DirectX 10 features and some other features that are tied to our Model 4.0 shaders, such as Bloom, but you will get full XP and Vista compatibility, all the great game features like water, ragdoll, physics improvements, score system and much of everything else we added to FPS Creator X10 this last year. Perhaps the best news is that as an existing FPS Creator user, you will get this major upgrade absolutely free!"
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Marc Steene
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 04:32
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Yes, I was originally confused about that, so one of the first questions I asked him (and is visible in the first post) was:

Quote: "8.Will bloom be in the migration?
OF COURSE"


It's a shame it won't be, though.


[b]FPSC MIGRATION: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142497&b=21
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Hockeykid
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 04:35 Edited at: 7th Feb 2010 04:35
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Quote: "To be fair Lee did say way back in 2008 that we wouldn't be getting bloom... "You won't get the fancy DirectX 10 features and some other features that are tied to our Model 4.0 shaders, such as Bloom, but you will get full XP and Vista compatibility, all the great game features like water, ragdoll, physics improvements, score system and much of everything else we added to FPS Creator X10 this last year. Perhaps the best news is that as an existing FPS Creator user, you will get this major upgrade absolutely free!""


Yes this is rather a disappointment

EDIT yeah forgot Thraxas could you jump on MSN?

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Kerrby
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Location: Australia mate.
Posted: 7th Feb 2010 07:29 Edited at: 7th Feb 2010 07:31
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Quote: "To be fair Lee did say way back in 2008 that we wouldn't be getting bloom..."


As Marc pointed out, he also said we were getting it.

I wonder if we're still getting water and the other things we were promised...

Not to mention, we still haven't been given a release window for the migration. So it could come in another two years.


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Thraxas
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 07:37
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No I think 4 years was right Kerrby :-P
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