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Work in Progress / BlitzTerrain

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sindore
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Posted: 27th Jan 2011 05:22
@ kaedroho wow!... I'm imprest I just watched the video of your BlitzTerrain that you posted, that looks amassing, just out of interest can you import heightmap from T.ed etc, as I don't want to remake my maps again, but would love to tweak then in BlitzTerrain?

Soul sucking devils, twisting the body's of the damned, slivering slim drips from every poor, sin licking at ears, and a smell so bad it stings the eyes, welcome to the darkness.
kaedroho
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Posted: 27th Jan 2011 17:30
If you can export your heightmap to a greyscale image, then they will be able to be loaded in BlitzTerrain. If not, then you will have to load it into DBPro, and perform raycasts of a grid of points on the terrain and put the heights on to a greyscale image, then export it.

kaedroho
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Posted: 27th Jan 2011 17:43 Edited at: 27th Jan 2011 17:45
I'm starting work on BlitzTerrain 2.2 now. Let me know which features you want to see in the next release.


Current list of new features:

Painting on textures
More brushes (smoothing, etc)
Simple render code
User can set how much Smoothing to do
User can set how much Quad reduction to do
Information about RTTMS in help files (for people who create collision systems, etc)

kaedroho
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Posted: 27th Jan 2011 18:21
I have attached a new screenshot.

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KISTech
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Posted: 27th Jan 2011 18:42
Quote: "Let me know which features you want to see in the next release."


- Terrain Streaming (but you knew that was coming..)

Screenshot looks fantastic.

Duffer
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Posted: 27th Jan 2011 19:36 Edited at: 28th Jan 2011 08:05
@Kaedroho,

That latest screenshot is simply amazing. What was the fps on your kit?

- Spherical Terrains... (or is that for the pro edition?)

[edit]

-
Quote: "Painting on textures"
(could that be with command(s) to calculate the position on the texture (x,y) from the 2d x,y coordinates on screen over the 3d of the terrain? - if you see what I mean?)

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 29th Jan 2011 22:55
Quote: "What was the fps on your kit?"


700FPS.

Quote: "- Spherical Terrains... (or is that for the pro edition?)"


This will be in the pro edition.

Quote: "(could that be with command(s) to calculate the position on the texture (x,y) from the 2d x,y coordinates on screen over the 3d of the terrain? - if you see what I mean?)"


I haven't planned on turning Blitzwerks terrain into a collision system. Maybe in the future.

Duffer
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Posted: 29th Jan 2011 23:41
@ Kaedroho,

- reassuring fps...

- thought so, re the spherical terrains - I can wait...

- with the terrain painting, anything really to help someone like me to be able to know where I am looking at on the terrain to paint it ie. if I am at x,z on the terrain, where am I on the texture? (hope that makes sense...)

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 29th Jan 2011 23:44
Just Divide the X/Z coordinates by the scale and that will return the coordinates on the heightmap. You then multiply it by texture size and divide it by the heightmap size to get the point on the texture.

Duffer
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Posted: 30th Jan 2011 11:16 Edited at: 30th Jan 2011 11:17
@ Kaedroho,

Thanks for that - obvious really - Doh!

(I'd got in my head that somehow the texture got skewed and stretched and shrunken over the terrain depending on height to perhaps a particular pixel of the texture wouldn't be where you expected...)

Anyhows, can you stick that in the help docs when you create the command?

Looking forward to the official release...

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
Quel
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Posted: 30th Jan 2011 18:58
Haven't TGC contacted you already about making this an official add-on? This actually makes DBP look "current" again.
thenerd
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Posted: 30th Jan 2011 20:43 Edited at: 31st Jan 2011 12:31
Quote: "Haven't TGC contacted you already about making this an official add-on? This actually makes DBP look "current" again."

It's being published on TGC soon...

[EDIT]It's been published!

Scraggle
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Posted: 31st Jan 2011 13:22
Quote: "Let me know which features you want to see in the next release"


Instead of the next release how about a feature for the current release:
Could you make an HTML version of your help files? Preferably in a similar style to the current DBP files. Having a PDF of commands is better than nothing but it is very difficult to use.

Thanks

kaedroho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2011 17:08 Edited at: 31st Jan 2011 17:10
Full version of BlitzTerrain has been released today on the The Game Creators website.

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_product&id=2286


This includes a number of features which are not available in the free version.

- Heightmap sizes can now go up to 4096x4096. (Limited to 512x512 in free).
- Unlimited LOD Levels. (Limited to 3 in free version).
- 255 Terrains. (Limited to 1 in free version).
- Real Time Terrain Modificaton. (Modify the terrain while the game is running!)
- Exclusion. (Remove parts of the terrain which are blocked from view)
- Quad reduction. (Reduces detail in areas which don't need much detail)
- Quad rotation. (Reduces the amount of polys sticking out making your terrain look smoother)
- Colour heightmapping. (More accurate than greyscale)
- Use in commercial projects royalty free.

kaedroho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2011 18:36
A new demo is on its way. It is the same demo used to render the screenshots for the TGC product page, I am working on rewriting it to make the code clearer. The only thing left to do now is the trees!

BMacZero
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Posted: 31st Jan 2011 18:46
Congratulations!

kaedroho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2011 18:59 Edited at: 31st Jan 2011 19:00
Thanks!

The new demo runs at over 1000 FPS now that I removed a lot of the clutter that was slowing it down. I get about 1200 FPS with a 256x256 terrain. This one is 1024x1024 so the detail is 16x greater but only a 20% decrease in FPS. This shows that the algorithms used to render BlitzTerrains have a logarithmic complexity instead of the linear complexity Advanced terrain has.

The Slayer
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Posted: 31st Jan 2011 20:54
Looks awesomez, kaedroho! Very very nice work indeed!
Just wondering though, how big are these terrains if the heightmap size is up to 4096x4096? I mean, how long would it take to go from one corner of teh terrain to the opposite corner? And, how fast does it run on your machine if you load in a terrain of that size? Btw, what are your system specs?
So, the heightmap size on this image (from the TGC product page) is 1024x1024, and you still got up to 1200 FPS, even with all the trees? Did you still get that framerate when looking at the trees and terrains, or only when looking at the sky?
Sorry for all the questions. Might buy this superb plugin, so...I'm curious.

Cheers

SLAYER RULES! YEAH, MAN!!
kaedroho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2011 23:13
Quote: "Just wondering though, how big are these terrains if the heightmap size is up to 4096x4096? I mean, how long would it take to go from one corner of teh terrain to the opposite corner?"


If you have a scale of 1m (medium detail), then the Terrain will be 4km x 4km (2.5 miles x 2.5 miles). If you just want hills and no high detail rocky mountains, then you might be able to get away with a lot lower details to make your terrain size bigger. The reason why 4096x4096 is the limit because DBPro cannot import images any higher than that.

Quote: "And, how fast does it run on your machine if you load in a terrain of that size? Btw, what are your system specs?"


It depends on how its setup. With no LOD Levels I get about 30 - 60 FPS (This is rendering 8 million polys). With LOD it is possible to make that go into the 1000s.

My system specs are:
AMD Athlon X2 5600+ @ 2.6 GHz
3GB 400MHz DDR2 RAM
Nvidia Geforce 9600GS (non overclocked version)
Windows XP Professional 32 bit


Quote: "So, the heightmap size on this image (from the TGC product page) is 1024x1024, and you still got up to 1200 FPS, even with all the trees?"


About 1000FPS without the trees. The trees were rendered individually by DBPro, so this reduces the frame rate by quite a lot. 2000 trees give me about 300FPS.


Quote: "Did you still get that framerate when looking at the trees and terrains, or only when looking at the sky? "


When your up in the sky, the LOD kicks in and the frame rate usually gets quicker even if you are viewing the entire terrain. LOD makes BlitzTerrain much faster at rendering terrain which is in the distance so you can have enormous terrains and still have very high frame rates.

When looking at the sky, I get over 2000 FPS.

Xenocythe
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 05:20
Karl,

I'm glad you didn't give up on this project. It's finally up for sale and I must say it's even more impressive than I thought it would be.
Congrats mate

James H
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Posted: 1st Feb 2011 21:43
Nice work buddy, glad to see this get so far, about time you earned some money from it. (Sorry I havent been here since I last commented - difficulties getting online) Fantastic that you gave it so much dedication, time and effort along with your other plugins too. The community will be forever gratefull Im sure
Duffer
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2011 08:39
@ Kaedroho,

Just starting to experiment with the full version. The possibilities with this just keep on opening up in your head...

With the help .pdf guide, had some ideas:-

- tips for best use of number of LODS, number of sectors, number of stages to builds....?
- explanation of rows and columns ie. how do you figure row and column from sector vertices and/or x/z on terrain as a whole...?

With the Pro version, with suggested Terrain Streaming/Stitching together of terrains, spherical terrains etc - how about being able to export from the terrain an image file of the main texture (as altered by painting commands?).

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
peterJBE
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2011 22:43
Using Blitzterrain (Full version) with Dark Physics.

I adapted the collision example that comes with Blitzterrain to work with Darkphysics.I first tried to setup a rigid body for every sector seperately and it worked well.Then I constructed(adding limbs) one DBPRO object from the sector meshes generated by BT MakeSectorObject and associated a single DP rigid body with it. It worked well(not with PHY MAKE RIGID BODY STATIC Terrain,
but with PHY MAKE RIGID BODY STATIC mesh. Why ??).

But when I try to reposition the terrain I have two problems.
-The DP rigid body does not move.(If I use advanced terrain I can reposition the rigid body).
-the camera behaves as if terrain is still in the original position, although the Blitzterrain is repositioned.

I want to use the repositioning in the context of a continous terrain (not obvious from the example),
I don´t consider this as a BT ´bug´. But I just want some help setting up BlitzTerrain with Dark Physics.

see the this code:
To test: press "d" to make some balls fall on the terrain. (position the camera somewhere over the terrain first).
press "m" to reposition the terrain,


kaedroho
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2011 23:13
When you use make sector object, it makes a separate DBPro object for a sector, this object isnt managed by BlitzTerrain.

So the solution is simply to reposition object 1000 aswell as the object you used for making the terrain.

KISTech
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 00:22
Kaedroho, got any more information on using color heightmaps?

peterJBE
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 01:54
@kaedroho


I could solve the problem partially by a call to following functions before I create rigid body 1000(DBPRO object 1000 is the result of adding all the sectors as limbs).
make mesh from object 20000,1000
delete object 1000
make object 1000,20000
It seems Dark Physics can handle the object better afterwards.
I know this is more a DBPRO and Darkphysics problem than a blitzterrain problem.

The camera problem I could not solve yet:
Quote: "
-the camera behaves as if the terrain is still in the original position, although the Blitzterrain is repositioned(visually).
"
kaedroho
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 11:33 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2011 11:36
Not sure exactly what that problem is. I know that Blitzwerks Terrain does GetGroundHeight, GetPointExcluded, etc on the terrains original position. The demo uses GetGroundHeight to keep the camera above the terrain.

If this is the problem, just simply add the terrains position to the coordinates on the call to GetGroundHeight.

Example


Scraggle
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 12:33
Could you please explain how I would use a skybox with this terrain system?

I have set up a comparison program of Blitz Terrain and Advanced Terrain and BT certainly seems to outperform AT in terms of FPS. However, I have to disable my skybox in order to see BT. I presume there is something funky going on with the way BT renders.

I display my skybox by using DISABLE OBJECT ZWRITE and this works perfectly for AT but when I switch to BT I can't see the terrain unless I remove the skybox or adjust the near view of the camera to beyond that of the skybox.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

peterJBE
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 12:39
@kaedroho

I´ll try this. Thank you for the quick respons.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 14:30 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2011 14:32
Are Blitzwerks Terrain, and Blitzterrain the same thing? If they are, I think you should stick with one name or the other.

kaedroho
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 15:27
Scraggle,

This is most likely because of the render order, and the size of your skybox.

Blitzwerks Terrain uses its own rendering engine. Its update function gets called by DBPro every time you call the sync function. This is always before DBPro objects get drawn. The reason This was added was to prevent water culling issues.

When the Terrain has been rendered, your skybox renders on top of it because it is alot smaller. Making the terrain invisible.


With Advanced terrain, the terrain renders after the skybox as it renders terrains the same way DBPro renders any other object. As the skybox has not written anything to the Z buffer, Advanced terrain believes it has control of the screen and renders itself on top.


The way to fix this is to simply, make the skybox very large. You can still disable the zwrite. This will just tell it not to render on top of Blitzwerks Terrains.

kaedroho
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2011 15:29
Quote: "Are Blitzwerks Terrain, and Blitzterrain the same thing? If they are, I think you should stick with one name or the other."


Yes they are. Blitzwerks Terrain is the official name. BlitzTerrain is short for Blitzwerks Terrain. It did used to be called BlitzTerrain but the name was changed a couple of weeks ago to prevent confusion with the terrain engine from Blitz3D.

kaedroho
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 18:48 Edited at: 5th Feb 2011 18:50
New update released!

Changes:
Fixed shaders.
Fixed pinholes which appeared on the edges of the sectors.
Fixed crash when split goes above 32.
LOD Distances can now be changed when the Terrain is running.
Environment maps work when they are a different size to the heightmap.
Upgraded to Visual Studio 2010.
Corrected Version information.

Download:
ZIP
RAR


My next priority is getting the GDK version updated.

Duffer
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 19:28
@ Kaedroho,

Is there an update to the standard (commercial) version too?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
kaedroho
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 19:43
The standard version is the latest version as well. This is just a late release.

The Slayer
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 19:45
Quote: "New update released!"

Hum, both the zip and rar download links dont work. Got this error on the rar link:

'The page you were looking for could not be found. /download.bw?BT201R2_DBP&rar'

Also, I tried the 'realtime terrain modification' example from the examples, and I got this error while compiling:

'Could not understand command at line 95'

...and, the command on that line is this:



The Blitzterrain commands are highlighted in blue, so the editor should recognize the commands, right?
I am using the 2.01 R2 version.
Any ideas, kaedroho?

Thanks!

SLAYER RULES! YEAH, MAN!!
kaedroho
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Posted: 5th Feb 2011 19:49 Edited at: 5th Feb 2011 20:29
If your using the free version, that function is not available. You have to get the full version to access that.

Thanks for reporting the link bug. I am looking into it now.

[EDIT] Found that the problem is with the database. It lists it when I want a general list of a group of downloads but doesnt when I want a specific download. It works with all other downloads except one, its very weird.

[EDIT] Fixed. Just deleted the record and added it again. Possibly a mysql bug.

smaas
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Posted: 6th Feb 2011 00:39
I tested the new free version with my shader. There is still a problem. I think it has to do with the normals.

old version



the same spot with the new version



If ordered the commercial and will test it as soon as the order is approved.

great work by the way
Mireben
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Posted: 9th Feb 2011 20:54
I'm happy that this great product has reached commercial stage, but I'll wait for the Dark GDK version. Congratulations!
kaedroho
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Posted: 9th Feb 2011 22:07
smaas, I will look into this right away. I changed how the normals are generated to improve load speed. It must be this that has gone wrong. Does it work without the shader?


Mireben, Thanks! I am working on the GDK version right now, there are still some bugs to fix, I will release as soon as its stable.

smaas
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Posted: 12th Feb 2011 10:12
kaedroho,

I've been testing the commercial version. The problem with the normals is the same. I don't know if it also the same when I use a texture but I do think because the shader doesn't change the normals.

I find a few other problems mainly with BT SetTerrainQuadReductionBT. When quad reduction is on I get small holes (spots) in the terrain.

without quad reduction





with quad reduction





This happens when I use texture or shader

I more serious problem, BT GetGroundHeight doesn't return the right value when quad reduction is on (both shader and texture).

without quad reduction





with quad reduction





I use BT GetGroundHeight the place the grass.


The last thing which is not really a problem the backside of the terrain is not drawn (as it should) except for the sector edges.



here I tried to use a second terrain for water.
kaedroho
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Posted: 12th Feb 2011 13:38
I know about the first quad reduction bug. This will be solved the same way pinholes on sector edges were solved.


Thanks for reporting the bug with the ground height. Its very hard to notice on the terrain in the example. This bug will be the next thing I get fixed.

The lines under the terrain are caused by the fact that you cannot backface cull a line (as they have no faces). You can disable backface culling on the terrain using the DBPro set object cull command.

WickedVixen
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Posted: 15th Feb 2011 05:17
All of these look great. I only have the 2.01 R2 demo version and the demos are quite captivating... ^_^

I will have to dissect one or two of the example programs to understand the nuances of this NEW terrain builder... O.o

How large can a terrain be made? Can it be hundreds of thousands of units along the x- and z-axes? If so, can the demo version be used to demonstrate that?

Keep up the great work, Kaedroho! We'll all benefit from the demo and commercial (paid-for) versions of BwT!

I want to build a "world" using this awesome plug-in and generate cities, towns, hamlets and caverns with this! Then, eventually, populate it with NPCs and create a 3D version of "Hack" or "Moria" with it!... Maybe, one day...

Cheers!

kaedroho
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Posted: 15th Feb 2011 10:11 Edited at: 15th Feb 2011 10:13
Heres a link to a demo which uses a large terrain (2048x2048).
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=181322&b=1

Quote: "How large can a terrain be made?"


As big as you want it to be. There is no limit to the size. The detail of the terrain depends on how much RAM you have. BT can get a 2048x2048 (8 million polys) heightmap running on most PCs quite quickly.

kaedroho
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Posted: 27th Feb 2011 17:40
Smass, can you send me a demo showing the bug with the normals?

Your signature has been erased by a mod please reduce it to no larger than 600 x 120.
Oneka
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Posted: 28th Feb 2011 19:23
@kaedroho, Do the terrains line up correctly now when using multiple hieghtmaps that are spliced from one master hieghtmap?


Making dreams possible, one line at a time...
kaedroho
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Posted: 28th Feb 2011 20:46 Edited at: 28th Feb 2011 20:47
They always have. You need to make sure that your heightmaps match up.

if you imagine 2 terrains 1 on the left and 2 on the right.
1's right side pixels must be the same as 2s left pixels.
You cant get an image and just split it up. Those edges must have the same height values.

Your signature has been erased by a mod please reduce it to no larger than 600 x 120.
Oneka
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Posted: 1st Mar 2011 00:33
Sounds good and now my last question is, what did you use to make that terrain in the recent demo you have released? I like the results of it, and does Blitzwerk support multi-textures?


Making dreams possible, one line at a time...
kaedroho
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Posted: 1st Mar 2011 00:41 Edited at: 1st Mar 2011 00:41
The terrain was made with L3DT.

BT doesn't support multi textures on its own. There are a number of shaders around which can do this. I have been planning for ages now to make a shader for this and build it into BlitzTerrain to simplify the programming involved in applying multi texturing, i'm hoping to add this feature soon though.

Your signature has been erased by a mod please reduce it to no larger than 600 x 120.
Oneka
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2011 17:21
To my surprise this actually ran, the 2048x2048 terrain demo on my little $272 Netbook, ASUS Eee PC 1011PE I believe is the model, nothing fancy but it ran at about 5-18 FPS with the highest being 80 FPS....


Making dreams possible, one line at a time...

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