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Geek Culture / Music is the spice of life ...

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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 05:06
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EXACTLY. Though you probably waisted your time explaining it to him. Probably went in one ear and out the other. Actually, I bet he will have some dumb remark to put like this: "Yea, but my music is better" because that is all he knows how to say on the subject. Comments like that just proves that he doesn't know one godd*mn thing about real music production. Else he would be able to back his words up.

I guess its pointless to argue with ppl like MrTAToad, seeing as they think they know everything and are completely un-willing to listen to anyone else.

He doesn't realize that putting toghether a track in Ejay is like putting together a game in The 3D Game Maker, and he will never be convinced, which is pretty sad really. Oh well its his loss if he chooses not to believe people that actually compose for a living.

http://www.grcompositions.cjb.net
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 05:56
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... right there ... actually is the sign of a amatures.

to me 3D Studio Max is far more technically superior to Milkshape3D.
does the fact of this, prevent me as an artist to create some stunning work in Milkshape3D simply because it lacks the same amount of tools and depth?

i could make a character in MS3D and one in 3DSMax - i could Skin&Rig them then animate a walking sequence.
now i've spent most of my adolesence and all of my adult life developing models, skinning, rigging & animating...

in my line of work you never know exactly what product you will be using next, a well known brandname? an inhouse editor? you just don't know what will come next.

the true hallmark of a professional artist is not the fact of being able to create stunning artwork every time he places a block down ... the hallmark is being able to achieve exactly the results he/she wanted to, to express and protray something within ANY given environment.
and really this is true of any profession at all.

do you somehow believe that a new york doctor sent to africa ... will simply refuse to operate on someone because thier medical technology is woefully out of date and not upto the standards he is used to?

-- -- --

to be honest i don't give a damn who the better muscian here is, what i'm hearing here are so-called vets of music development totally dismissing a product which quite frankly is better than nothing.

Sure the more fully featured products are great, if you have the time to learn them and the money to purchase them.
so you create you own samples to add to you sequenced tracks which you can then go onto edit all the ampwaves and octagonals of the sound frequences and all that other music mumbo-jumbo.

have you ever actually used eJay?

eJay is capable of loading 44hz 128Bit Quality mp3/wav file samples.
yes the sequencer itself is a simple channel based affair.
however it has an inbuilt Sequencer (perhaps not upto the standard of better programs but should be MORE than enough for anyone who is truely good at what they do), it also has an TimeBased Equalizer for each sample ... allowing you to change the majors of the sample, speed, pitch, bass, equalized hz ranges, etc...

sure for the beginner it is a very simple and easy program to click'n'point your tracks along - but there are also enough features buried to give it actual EDITING properties.
maybe eJay & Music2000 weren't aimed at people like you, but they still have the tools to get the job done ... provided you can add the right samples.

-- -- --

next time before you decide to make this a whole Pro vs Amature battle; you should check yourselves at the door, else bounce.

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Eric T
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 06:10
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Unless you are the person who makes the samples(or loops) then it still does not count as your music creation.

I did use ejay at one point, but i created every single one of the loops i used. From Guitar licks to clarinet solos, i made all of them(shitty quality though lol). But The samples that Toad is using are not his creations, the are royalty free creations of another human being. He did not create them. Thus it makes it as it is not his music.

Ejay, good to start off with, but not as good as to start off creating midi. Midi actually makes you use your brain, and its not, "oh were should i put this sample", its more of you doing the playing.

Opinions are like a$$holes, Everybody has one.
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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 08:53 Edited at: 10th Aug 2003 08:54
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Raven, you're missing my point. Its not so much that he's USING ejay that is the problem. he can use it all he wants for all i care. It's the fact that MrTAToad is saying that he is a better digital-composer that is pissing me off. Seriously, you can not use Ejay's pre-made loops(which he did) and call yourself a better digital-composer then someone who can actually write each element from scratch, you just cant. Any experienced composer will tell you the same thing. Now, if MrTAToad were to actually write a song completely from scratch and show it to me, i would have a second opinion. Hell, he could write his own loops for Ejay, and i wouldn't care, as long as HE wrote them. but until then, he should keep quiet because he is only making himself look ignorant.

and as far as me sounding "amature" goes...well, if I were truly an amature, would i really know how to operate any of my equipment?(or even set it all up in sync for that matter): http://www.realgametools.net/forums/attachments/Mvc-002f.jpg

I have been into writing music for 13 years. I love music and I love studying music production and theory, it is my entire life, and not to mention my paying job. Trust me, I know exactly what I am talking about.

http://www.grcompositions.cjb.net
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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 09:21 Edited at: 10th Aug 2003 09:22
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One more thing Raven, about your MS3D to MAX comparison. I see your point, but Think of it this way...Is someone really a good modeller if all they do is take pre-made, complex objects(such as pre-made arms, heads, etc etc), and construct models from them?

Sure MAX has more features, but you can still create original models in MS3D...Same goes for music programs, Sonar has much more features then Fruity Loops, but you can still make original music in Fruity Loops. That is really the only point i am trying to get across.

http://www.grcompositions.cjb.net
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gryvix
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 10:08
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Hmmmm....
Fallout, even tho I'm no fan of the genre u wrote the piece I really got suprised, if it is techno, then it must be uber-techno or such, lotsa variations, original tunes,...
Sometimes I had the feeling especially when there was dinging the tempo was a bit too fast, it sounded too hastily to my opinion, well done. Keep up the good work.
MrTAToad, I listened to your music, and I got bored with it after 5 secs, just plainly bored with it: no variations, even out of tune (how do u managed it with loops?), loops not really properly placed to let them start, things not starting on the beat/tick or not properly placed after the beat/tick, heard like hesitations, not to mention the total uncreativity of using the same stuff over and over...

I'm looking as pure musician, with more than ten years real experience and before that playing tunes with a keyboard.
I am a gamemusic composer for two months, not really actively busy with it just as a hobby...
I'm playing music for 10 years, composing for 5 years without the use of any computers, just sheetmusic, metronome(u could use it mrTAToad) and a pencil(to write the notes )
I began as a total opposite like Grim did: from a high educated in music to the scene of gamemusiccomposing, I show him his faults he makes(sometimes I feel like I'm too harsh on the guy )
but I could make better stuff when I was 8 years old on Fasttracker2 than u do now MrTAToad, maybe learn some basic principles on creating music would certainly help...

Just for the record: I didn't mention the Ejay thingy cuz I am a bit Machiavellic, it doesn't matter what u use to achieve ur goal as long as u reach it. Just wanted to mention it, maybe I'll try it out once and see what I can achieve with it...

You can always e-mail me if u want tips MrTAToad or Fallout...

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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 10:20
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Quote: "I began as a total opposite like Grim did: from a high educated in music to the scene of gamemusiccomposing, I show him his faults he makes(sometimes I feel like I'm too harsh on the guy)"


Heh, you aren't too harsh, I'm glad to get tips from someone as educated in formal music theory as yourself.

http://www.grcompositions.cjb.net
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 12:20 Edited at: 10th Aug 2003 12:30
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Grim Reaper - So what ? The samples sound good anyway. I dare you to take Ejay to court for false advertising, if you think they're lying.

Quote: "music in ejay is not your own music"

A bit of a silly comment there. Of course its mine, because I set out the tracks - anything I design is mine. Its as silly as saying that no computer program you write is yours, just because all the assembly code is setup by someone else.

Quote: "How about the vocals in my track?"

Certainly did... Is she single ?

Quote: "pathetic ejay sequencing skills"

Me things someones a bit jealous.

Quote: "Playing with EJAY is childs play."

The most obvious quote today - of course, thats why I got it...

Quote: "the simple fact that my music is truly my own, has infinite possibility, is original and is not just the rearranging of someone elses work, makes my music, and other musicians music, substantially better than yours"

So does mine, and so is mine.

Quote: "You can always e-mail me if u want tips MrTAToad or Fallout"

Dont need - like my music as it is.

Quote: "I guess its pointless to argue with ppl like MrTAToad, seeing as they think they know everything"

I didn't think I knew everything, but thats for letting me know that I do.

Look, we're not going go to agree here - I dont rate yours, and you dont rate mine, and you are entitled to believe yours is better than mine (and vise versa for me).


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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 12:57
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*this is my last post in this arguement*



"Grim Reaper - So what ? The samples sound good anyway. I dare you to take Ejay to court for false advertising, if you think they're lying."


- did i ever say they WERE advertising false info? no.


"A bit of a silly comment there. Of course its mine, because I set out the tracks - anything I design is mine. Its as silly as saying that no computer program you write is yours, just because all the assembly code is setup by someone else."

- OK, the ARRANGEMENT is your design, yes, but the actual hard work of designing each of the loops, is not credited to you. In this case you are not actually a composer, you just put loops together, which anyone can do. ANYONE.



"Me things someones a bit jealous."

- yea, whatever you say pal.


"Look, we're not going go to agree here - I dont rate yours, and you dont rate mine, and you are entitled to believe yours is better than mine (and vise versa for me)."

- Well, you started the arguement the very second you made that snobby remark in your first post. You were asking to get flamed and you know it. Not many composers take kindly to someone bragging like that, especially when they have nothing to brag about.



My advice to you is to actually think of how other people might feel when you make comments like that for a change. How would you like it if you worked your ass off on a song for a week, posted it, and then some a*shole came in and hi-jacked your topic by saying "for REAL music you should check out my site"? Seriously man, that was harsh and un-called for. To tell you the truth, you remind me of some bratty kid who when someone gives him a gift, says "meh, this sucks, i dont want it". Grow up man.




Later,
Aaron

http://www.grcompositions.cjb.net
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 13:01
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Quote: "How would you like it if you worked your ass off on a song for a week, posted it, and then some a*shole came in and hi-jacked your topic by saying "for REAL music you should check out my site"?"

Would be no problem for me at all - I suggest you 'chill'

Quote: "Grow up man"

Already have done.


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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 13:21
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Would just like to say that I apologize for even getting involved in this arguement. It was pointless and stupid, and this isn't even a music forum, so who cares. And i really, really hate arguing. No hard feelings to anyone, and i hold no grudges.

Lets just let this topic get back to what it was supposed to be about, ok?



Aaron

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Fallout
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 15:09
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I like a good argument me. This stuff can get quite heated, but at the end of the day, it's just an internet forum. I'm not anybodies life long buddy. It doesn't matter if we tread on a few toes, because wounds heal quickly on the internet, and it's not unhealthy to bare grudges, because people seem less real.

So let me begin ...

I would never listen to someone elses music and then plug mine as being better. For doing that Toady, you are quite simply a prick. I'm not saying this with aggression or anger or frustration - it's just a emotionless observation. You're blatently a sad ponse if your first response is to disrespect someone elses hard work, and then plug your own. There's nothing more to it really. Anyone with a small amount of courtesy or consideration wouldn't do that.

Having said that, I dont think you appeciate the work that goes into music that isn't already made for you. So it's possible your ignorance is making music composition seem cheap to you, when, in fact, it's actually incredibly complicated and rewarding.

Raven, I hear your points but you have to have experienced the technicality of the different approaches to the music to know what we're getting at.
Grim said it best here:
One more thing Raven, about your MS3D to MAX comparison. I see your point, but Think of it this way...Is someone really a good modeller if all they do is take pre-made, complex objects(such as pre-made arms, heads, etc etc), and construct models from them?

That's the best way of expressing it in more real world terms. We place all verticies. Toady just drags another head into the frame.

Here's something I'd expect a senile old woman to say:
Its as silly as saying that no computer program you write is yours, just because all the assembly code is setup by someone else.

We all know programming is a complex task, but Ejay isn't, so a better quote would be this:
Ejay is like putting together a game in The 3D Game Maker

A few more points before I go ...
I ignored everyone refering to my music as techno, but it's time to say it's drum'n'bass.
Now, depending on where you come from, that may make no sense whatsoever, rings a bell, or is something you know a little about. It's an England-born style, forming around 1995, designed purely as dance music, and is highly culture driven (i.e.You have to have grown up in the right place/with the right people to have grown up with it).
Its always composed around 170-180BPM, so my music isn't too fast. That track clocks in at 176BPM. It's all composed around this speed, obviously for mixing purposes.
Drum'n'bass has only just started being advertised here (and yes, it is the crap stuff they advertise). Up until a year a go, it was never plugged on TV or anywhere. Up until about 4 years a go you couldnt get it on CD - it was vinyl only DJ material.

Thanks for the offer of help gryvix. My drum'n'bass is my own unique take on it. Similar to those above, I've been involved in music for around a decade and have been digitally producing sinse '96. Sinse '97 when I first started releasing it online, I have received over 120,000 downloads, which I'd like to think is a testament to the fact my music isn't crap. On an old scene site, about 3 years a go (TraxInSpace.com), which had over 18000 members, I was the no.1 drum'n'bass artist for a long time. I also was artist of the month, and got 15 reviews and over 200 public reviews.
If you want to find out what amature drum'n'bass composers are like, and a bit more about the professional drum'n'bass scene, take a look at dnbscene.com, which is a site I formed around 2000.
I have dubs of my work pressed, and they are regularly spun but friends in Bournemouth and Southampton at drum'n'bass events and my tracks go down well.

Anyway, enough bitching and boasting. I just don't want people to listen to my music and think I'm a rookie because they don't understand the style. Believe me, my stuff isn't perfect production quality wise, and this is still an area where I need to improve, but composition wise, there's not a lot of difference between my work and the professionals.

Now, anyone for a cup of tea? I've just stuck the kettle on. I think I might have some scones too! Oh joy!

Machine: P4 2200, 1GB RAM, GeForce4 64MB, Audigy Platinum
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 15:15
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Quote: "For doing that Toady, you are quite simply a prick"

And an equally emtionless replay : Why thank you.


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empty
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 15:23
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An amusing thread this is.
It slightly reminds me of discussions that took place when canned pop music became very popular. What's more skillful: to play the drums or to use a drum computer, to program a synth from the scratch or use a sound library...
At the end of a very long day the only important thing is: the result. No matter how you've acheived it.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
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Cash Curtis III
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 16:46
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lol that better shut him up. Oh yea and revolution was great, ill go download more now. Btw never heard of ejay but as i can see everyone thinks it sucks. I have a weird program called sound forge 6.0, does that make music? Or just sound editing?
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Wiggett
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 17:06
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i still think songs that take a band to play are better than techno songs, though most 80's music is synth they still have a group of people doing it. beck i think works alone and his stuff is good, but he actually sings lyrics, not just repeat some dodgey line, i think techno is best summed up in the strong bad techno song. thats pretty much the only techno song i like. oh and pump the jam, that was cool, (well it wasnt but you know what i mean.) basically that here's johnny song brought about a new age of techno an di don't like it. (i think here's johhny as the first, the first that i heard anyway.)

i don't want, a place to stay get your booty on across to mine, make my day


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empty
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 17:51
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Quote: "
though most 80's music is synth they still have a group of people doing it
"

Yeah for TV and "live" shows only

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 18:04
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Quote: "lol that better shut him up"

Keep saying it enough, and you'll eventually believe it.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 20:17
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:: sighs :: i give up this is stupid...
i told you i don't give a damn who think who is better - you're not attacking Toady, your attacking him because he used eJay.

this is the point i'm making, if you'd actually ever even used eJay you'd realise that really it is a pretty good track sequencer/mixxer - so what if it doesn't say Roland and takes up half a room with 6,000 sliders ... you can still edit the tracks & samples you IMPORT.

if you want to tear Toad a new one because he thinks he's better than you - then do so... i really couldn't care less. Problem i have here is that you guys are showing your maturity on the subject by saying - "oh all eJay is, is using premade samples." but there is a little button that says 'IMPORT' that would blow that outta the water wouldn't you say?
and there are also the sample editing facilities to edit up your samples for all sorts of interesting things.

Sure if someone is simply using pre-made samples and plonking them down technically you can't call them a composer but a mixxer ... however that said all muscians do is use pre-made notes, string them together and voila music.

even using samples, unless your literally sitting there and playing the drums yourself or if you have a nice motor bike that your revining to get a certain sample ... it isn't your is it?
its someone else which you'll take for what you need and then slice'n'dice it to suit you then call it yours.
which is no different from a programmer, taking a peice of code from someone else - changing all of the names and incoprating it into thier code and saying "i developed this 100%" ... when really the only person he is fooling is himself because he never figured out howto do that code, simply howto edit it for his own benifits.

people say that Doga isn't proper modeling, however ironically game modeling only 8years ago was EXACTLY doing that.
you'd make a shape using math, import it and then use it as a template ... its only now we have all these fancy things that make vertex and create belizer spline and such that suddenly that isn't modeling.

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Fallout
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 21:00
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i told you i don't give a damn who think who is better - you're not attacking Toady, your attacking him because he used eJay.

It might appear that way, but I can assure you, I was attacking the combination of Toady and Ejay. Ejay on it's own is fine. Toady on his own is bad enough. But Toady, Ejay and Toady's personality, all combined, is the physical incarnation of wank.

I dont care what people use to compose. I myself use free software (well, some of it). If someone can put an original track together using their grans underwear and a nuns handbag, then well done! Like someone said above, it's not the process, it's the end result. If someone uses Ejay and imports every loop, and these loops are their own work, then there is no problem. They're a bit mental for using Ejay for that, as there are freeware programs that do the job a lot better, but still, that's fair play.

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Demon
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 21:36
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TAToad, its not the samples that are crap, its the way there put together, my 9 yr old sister could make a song sound more proffesional than yours on a fisher price keyboard, your not a musician, only someone who know how to click and drag. And im pretty sure its Rave Ejay

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Demon
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 21:40
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MRTaToad, if you want to get into making Dance, Techno, Rave, or all of the above, get either the program called Reason, or FruityLoops... It will take time to get to grips with the interface, and the tools, but the sound quality is much better.. Its how i started out, and now im making music to be played in Nightclubs

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 21:48
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Ah ha.


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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 10th Aug 2003 23:50
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Well, if the arguement is gonna continue, i take back my apology...



"however that said all muscians do is use pre-made notes, string them together and voila music."

umm...that statement just proves you know next to nothing about writing music. The premade "notes" you speak of, they aren't called notes. Notes are symbols on staff paper, the proper term is tones. Even still, a tone is just a vibration in the air, now how can tones be pre-made? So you must be thinking of Samples. Sure, we use pre-recorded Samples, because how can you expect us to have every single instrument in our houses and the means to record them? But there is a major difference between using pre-made samples, and pre-made loops. When using pre-made samples, you still have to actually write each melodic and harmonic line, and to do that well at all, you need to know a thing or 2 about writing music.

Samples are to Digital-Composers as Paint is to an Artist.
Pre-Made loops are to Digital-Composers as Clip-Art is to an Artist.



ok, maybe i did make my previous posts a little unclear and possibly mis-leading, so i will try again:

I KNOW THAT EJAY CAN IMPORT YOUR OWN LOOPS, IT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PROGRAMS I EVER USED. BUT MRTATOAD DID NOT USE HIS OWN LOOPS!!! THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS ARGUEMENT RAVEN. IF YOU DONT CARE WHO THE BETTER MUSICIAN IS, THEN YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT SOMETHING DIFFERENT THEN WHAT WE ARE ARGUING ABOUT! EVEN IF MRTATOAD USED THE SAME PROGRAMS AS I DO, I WOULD STILL HAVE AS LITTLE RESPECT FOR HIM IF HE USED PRE-MADE LOOPS AND BRAGGED ABOUT IT!! MY DISRESPECT IS NOT IN THE PROGRAM HE USES, ITS IN HOW HE USES IT!(but only because he brags about it!)


Empty:
Yes i agree that it is the result that counts, but my whole problem with MrTAToad is that he actually bragged about it when he didn't really do anything but put loops together. I would really have no problem with him at all if he just didn't brag about it. That is my whole arguement, but no one seems to understand that.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 00:19
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Quote: "umm...that statement just proves you know next to nothing about writing music. The premade "notes" you speak of, they aren't called notes. Notes are symbols on staff paper, the proper term is tones. Even still, a tone is just a vibration in the air, now how can tones be pre-made?"


if i say "A" ... then thats is a letter & a vowel right?
it is part of a language used to communicate verbolly through the useage of sounds (vibration of air past the vocal cords using the teeth & tounge to shape the sounds)
the letter A is prefrabricated sound which has been taken to privde a stable base and help to make up a language which then arranges these prefabricated sounds to achieve communication allows us to understand each other.

Musics is essentially a language, and is prefabricated sounds produced from instraments which are based within a given key (which indicates pitch) ... someone thousands of years ago created the system that we use for musics today, it hasn't always been there and it is only by the adaptation to a singlular system for musical interpretation.
Yes a musical note is a simple tone or vibration of air which produces a sound that our ear then intepret ... however we wouldn't know how to interpret them to recreate them over and over if there was no system for it.

music that you know is a language which is used to express something, but someone created the template for that very language you use - and you are simply using it, and not creating your own.
if someone does this through sampling then does it matter if they're using a figurative language or an interpretive one?

phh! musicians - why the hell should i care which one of you is better, its all interpretive anyway ... just because i think one person is better than another doesn't make it true, just like taste. You sense what you want to sense - if you don't like something no amount of arugment is going to change that.

-- -- --

and if you knew anything about art at all you'd realise that actually photographical art, taking a picture of something is an interpretive artform ... you might not like it or thing it is real art because the artist didn't do anything - but they sit there and they take the shots to either show a beauty you might not have seen or for some symbolic meaning, etc...

if you guys really didn't have a problem with what he was using then more of you posts would've been arguments to WHY his work is not better... not to why using eJay is only for amatures.
your insulting the rider's skill by insulting his stock - and it isn't the stocks fault that you didn't like his performance.

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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 01:07
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And which musical system are you talking about that was supposedly created by someone thousands of years ago? LOL ...music was not 'created' by someone. It has evolved over MILLIONS of years. In fact there is more then one system of music. The system in which all western music is based on is the 12-tone system, meaning there are 12 tones in an octave(C1, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, F, F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab, A, A#/Bb, B, C2) ...and by western music, i am not refering to country music, i am refering to any very well known style, even metal, rap, and techno-based styles. Some systems of music are very different, some having many more then 12 tones in an octave.

Oh, and actually, i respect photographers. You can really tell when a picture was takin by a profesional, and when a picture was takin by an amature. Photographers have a lot of factors to worry about, such as lighting, focus point, structure, eye-distractions, etc(yes i know these are not proper terms, but hey im not a photographer). But photography is completely off the subject, it is an entirely different form of art.

But Raven, if you aren't going to comprehend what my point in this arguement really is, then just stop argueing with me ok?

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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 01:10
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"not to why using eJay is only for amatures."

no, using PRE-MADE loops in eJay, or any other program, is for amatures :p

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 02:01
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Quote: "no, using PRE-MADE loops in eJay, or any other program, is for amatures "


And your point is?


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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 02:10
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you would hafta be a total retard not to get my point.

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Eric T
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 02:17 Edited at: 11th Aug 2003 02:17
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That your using premade loops/samples and that your not creating them so you should shut up about how your music is great because it is not your music.

Edit:

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 02:36 Edited at: 11th Aug 2003 02:38
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Hello! Where have you been ? Of course its mines, as I designed the layout of the tracks. The only time it wouldn't be mine is if someone else did the music.

Quote: "you would hafta be a total retard not to get my point"

So, what is the point ?


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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 02:45
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as i said, The ARRANGEMENT of the song is your design, but that is all that is your design.


I dont feel like telling you the point, because you just wont get it anyway.


oh and a sidenote Raven: You said that we are attacking MrTAToad for using eJay...this is untrue, we are attacking him for using pre-made loops and bragging about it. It wouldn't make any damn difference to me if he used pre-made loops in the BEST music software available.

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Eric T
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 02:53
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Quote: "Hello! Where have you been ? Of course its mines, as I designed the layout of the tracks. The only time it wouldn't be mine is if someone else did the music."


You designed the layout..... BigWOOP. But Did you make those samples(and before you ask me what a sample is.... It is a loop made by one person to sample their playing for others to freely use).

No you did not make those samples. You did not play anything, you did not use a synth to make them, you did not play the drum set, you did nothing but copy and paste for an hour or so.

You people make me sick, people who are to stupid to relize that its not your creation but someone elses. You desgnied it, so it is your design...shitty design at that. (suggestion..take a music class down at a community college.)

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 03:10
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no grim photography isn't off the point, you leased a metaphore and i ran with it hopeing that you'd understand.
you don't understand a thing ... and that is quite obvious.

you want to know why?
because your sitting there trying to pick your own brains for all the smarts to try and show how much you know about music but one simple thing you've forgotten is this...

if there are no prefabricated notes which desern music which were created, then how can an instrament be out of tune?

music is like the english language you speak, sure it have evolved from a more primative state over the years - however there was a focal point when a grunt became an "A"
and you can't say there is no proof of this because the simple fact that there is a broad key of languages shows that they have been invented rather than simply become.

music is another thing along these lines ... such you know of the octave of notes - but who said that there are only 12 sounds to a key? who said they must be at given points of tension on a string?

music, drawing, programming, language, etc... i don't care what you wish too trade them all under, but they are an art because they allow expression. That is what art is all about, expression.
it doesn't matter if you use a penny whistle or a 808sequencer, what your creating is still an expression of something.

peotry is a just form of resequencing words to produce new meanings, who cares where the word came from or how it got its meaning. You still take those words and use them creatively.

this is the last post i'll do on this - if you havn't got the point by now it'll no doubt take you many many years if not longer to realise. i'm sure you do appreciate art, in your own way ... but the appreciation kinda defeats the entire point.
i can appreciate having food on the table to eat, doesn't mean i understand how happy i should be that it is there for me to eat.

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Cash Curtis III
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 03:27
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haha u ppl sure enjoy talking alot. Just drop it and let toady go to hell.
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Eric T
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 03:38
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But i love talking alot... especially when its one of those wars that i love because i understand everything thats being said. This is what i do for a living is make music, and record peoples music. And toad when he said... but my music is better... Really pissed me off. His music was ok, but it was not better then fallouts seeing as fallout was the one who created..wrote...and designed his music(with the exception of any vocals).

Now i'm not saying my music is better then anyones here because i do not brag. I am just saying that toads is childs play, and he shouldn't be going around saying his is better. Why is it better, give us a reasons, stuff to support your statment, and not just stupid bullshit like, "because it is" or dumbass statements like i've been hearing.

Really, where is your back-up for those statements.

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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 03:56 Edited at: 11th Aug 2003 03:59
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Music wasn't invented by anybody. It was discovered. The musical scales are all based around harmonics which is a mathematical phenominon, which is why music always sounds right (in tune) or wrong (out of tune).

You can start with a base frequency of any frequency and use the rules of harmonic steps to describe the following sequence of notes. This means there are rules to how different frequencies should be catagorised into sets (scales and notes) but there are no essential rules on what frequencies should be used.

One note can never be out of tune unless it's supposed to be a certain frequency. If one of two notes are not within the same harmonic sequence, one is out of tune.

Raven, I just wanna say that I understand where you're coming from. You're saying we can't diss Toady because he is still an artist as he is sequencing these loops, expressing himself and coming up with a sequence of his own creation. I do agree totally with that! So don't think I'm missing your point. I accept he is an artist in that respect.

We're just having a go because of his rude initial attitude, which was backed up by something very easy to do. You don't expect "Bob" to tell Steven Spielburg he's crap cos his dinosaurs in Jurrasic Park don't look as good as "Bob"s origami ones. Hope that makes sense, was a bit wordy. If you're gonna be a prick and be rude about someones work, you can at least show them up with something more impressive showing your skill. What's the point in acting like a prick and then showing someone that actually you have very little skills and you suck?

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indi
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 07:09
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I didnt mind the D&B/junglist track fallout made, gotta listen to toadies. Sure its electronica but it fails to be techno, you will find its more jungle / gabba / drum n base.
The fact its got a few spoken words elliminates it from pure trance.
The non progressive beat is jungle /drum n base.

It aint "Doof" Ill tell you that, but its good.

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Grim_Reaper
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 08:52 Edited at: 11th Aug 2003 11:33
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[edit] Ah who cares. i removed this post because i know it wont make a difference anyway. Lets just agree to disagree shall we? Raven, you know what you know, and I know what I know, lets just leave it at that. I'm sure you are good at what you do and im sure you know what you are talking about when it comes to what you do. All i ask is that you have the same respect for me in what I do, which is music, ok?

I think somewhere in the midst of all of this argueing we lost track of what the arguement was really about. The only point that i was trying to make is that its not right to make a song with someone elses loops, and then brag about it, no matter what program it was made in. That is ALL i was trying to say. plain and simple. If anyone interpreted my point as anything else, then i'm sorry, it was un-intentional.



Aaron

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gryvix
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 09:44
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Raven, there is no really a system: people have used all sorts of of system and at the moment we use the 12-tone system cuz we like to hear it...
at Roman times they used a different system and they played terrible(to our hearing) but was nice for the Romans.
there are other systems like in northern africa the pentatonic (with only 5 tones).
our general hearing changes.

Btw TAToad give us some arguments about why ur music is good ?
what did u feel when u made it ?
that's the main thing what I don't see emotion, like if someone makes some modern art with stacking some bricks with a feeling after it or just put the bricks there trying to think real hard it is art and beautiful.....

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 13:01 Edited at: 11th Aug 2003 13:45
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Quote: "TAToad give us some arguments about why ur music is good"

Because I think its good. Its irrelevent whether anyone agrees or disagrees with me.

If you do like it, then thats fine. If you dont, then dont download any more, stop moaning, and go and do something else.

Quote: "what did u feel when u made it ?"

That is a hard one - especially as its been a while since I wrote the music. It was probably my usual happy self.


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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 13:38
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Well, I suppose amidst this arguing, this thread got every man and his dog to download my tune.

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Cash Curtis III
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 17:28
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yea like a publicity stunt...well sorta
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empty
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 17:51
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@Aaron
Quote: "
Yes i agree that it is the result that counts, but my whole problem with MrTAToad is that he actually bragged about it when he didn't really do anything but put loops together. I would really have no problem with him at all if he just didn't brag about it. That is my whole arguement, but no one seems to understand that.
"

Yeah I see your point. But if you read other posts by Toady (esp. TPC DLLs ) you can see that's the way he is. I wouldn't take it too serious as I believe that he didn't mean it dead serious either.
However, the funny thing is that the arguments went a bit weird (not yours, though, so the following points are not explicitly aimed at you).
I only have a slight idea what eJay is as I've never used it, but you can't judge the quality of music by the tools that were used. Even if it could only handle 11kHz, that wouldn't affect the quality of the music at all- it would only affect the sound quality. And secondly, there are areas in the music business were you mainly use libraries (self-made and third party) to create music. One area is (for example): jingle production. You simply haven't got the time nor do you get enough money from your clients to actually compose and properly record the tunes. If you don't use libraries (loops and stuff) you just won't survive.

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Fallout
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 17:55
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Do the shake and vac and put the freshness back .... do the shake and vac and put the freshness back ...

Now come on! That's 5 star original jingle massive quality inside!!!!!!!! No loops there - just the bashing of a few pots and pans, the sexual abuse of a vacume cleaner and a now dead woman singing into a stoneage microphone! Wicked stuff!

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Demon
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 18:04
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no, using PRE-MADE loops in eJay, or any other program, is for amatures


And your point is?



Heres an example;


Say you wanted to make a film, and instead of doing it the real way with the filming, dubbing and the rest of it, you get 7 video's and just cut out bits and put it into your own video/film.. You arranged the parts, you pasted them, but its not your work, its only your arrangement. Understand?

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Demon
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 18:06
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Quote from MrTAToad

That is a hard one - especially as its been a while since I wrote the music. It was probably my usual happy self.


keyword: wrote


You didnt write the music, you only arranged the samples.

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empty
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 18:24
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Quote: "
no, using PRE-MADE loops in eJay, or any other program, is for amatures
"

Whatever, as long as it pays my bills.

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Arrow
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 18:45
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Well all you loser can suck it, cuz I'm the bomb when it comes down to the mad beats. None of your noobie crap can compair to me and MTV's Mussic Generator 2 for PS2, yeah that's right. My tunes blow all that static you call music out of the water. Peace, I'm outy

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 11th Aug 2003 20:37
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Quote: "You didnt write the music, you only arranged the samples."


So?


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