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Dark GDK / Dark SDK

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 09:02
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id be happy with vb6 compatibility if .NET is such an issue to deal with. Im really looking to dump the dbp ide and the coding language for something more oop related, but thats just me. Either way DarkTOPIA development continues


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IanM
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 16:35
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You can't use vb6 either AFAIK as it doesn't use the standard MS linking system, and unless compatible object/library files can be generated using a C++ compiler for those languages, it looks unlikely.

Despite that, if you think of anything that will allow this, pass it on to Mike and Lee - if the development time doesn't outweigh the revenue benefits they'll probably be willing to take a shot at it.

I have to say here that I am on the edge looking in, so what I say should be taken as 'informed', and not TGC policy

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The Wendigo
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 17:26 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2004 17:47
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This may have already been answered, but is all that the SDK is is a bunch of DLL files? If so, that could work out for many languages. VB6 would be compatible then, too.

VB.NET supports pointers? assume I had a string and I wanted to point a different var to that string's address, that is possible? I've been sifting through the help files and cannot figure it out....

[Edit] -- Removed --


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 19:04
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Quote: "This is also not an accurate statement of English law. Decompilation is permitted by the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 in certain very specific and limited circumstances. Refer to the talk I delivered to the Con for further details."


See here is what your missing though;
Decompiliation and Disassembling are 2 VERY different things.

Decompilitation, which although you can consider back-engineering is acceptable under strict circumstances. So in the broadest sense you can say it is legal.

Disassembling on the other hand is illegal world over; which is where I would consider true back-engineering to take place, because you have to put in alot of effort and work in order to sort out Assembly of higher-level languages.

It isn't a case of DBP where you can literally take the _virtual.dat and setup a script which will look over the source for given asm and output exactly what the original dba was like; when you compile something in C++, the rules will change depending on the circumstances; while the absolute basics are identical from the same compile, every bit of data around it is different. On-top of that you also have each compiler doing thier own version of what is going on. So which the front-end language might be extremely similar the actual output often couldn't be further apart.

I know for a fact that UK and US law, DO NOT allow you to take something, disassemble it and then back-engineer the results for your own purposes.

EXE or DLL, they're the exact same format, just different varieties with different entry point rules. Everything past the entry point is identical. Thus DLLs are protected under the exact same rules that protect full programs.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 19:39
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Might be a good idea to get the full SP from the legal bear - as long as he doesn't charge of course...

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IanM
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 20:03
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Quote: "is all that the SDK is is a bunch of DLL files?"


I keep saying this - the files are a set of *STATIC* libraries. They are not DLLs.

They get included into your application at compile-time (specifically, at link-time), not run-time, to make one big executable that does not use temporary DLLs.

So you cannot currently use the SDK if:

1. your compiler doesn't include a binary level link-stage
- This excludes .NET languages (except for C++), VB6, Delphi

2. your compiler doesn't accept mangled names
- Maybe excludes MASM?

3. your compiler is not binary compatible with VC++6
- Most compilers are not compatible, but you may be able to convert (borland)
- Some are compatible (such as Digital Mars C++)

4. your compiler cannot use MS .lib files
- GNU compilers (such as Dev-C++) cannot use them for example.

Points 3&4 will change when Mike sets things up for different compilers, but the first two points will probably never be removed unless TGC decide to issue a DLL, a COM component, or a MSIL component, all of which would be varying levels hard work considering the starting point.

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David R
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 21:22
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I'm sorry for being stupid here, but what i this SDK thing - I've never heard of it!

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 21:38
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See my previous comment about what DarkSDK is

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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 22:16 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2004 22:17
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Quote: "Decompilitation, which although you can consider back-engineering is acceptable under strict circumstances. So in the broadest sense you can say it is legal.

Disassembling on the other hand is illegal world over; which is where I would consider true back-engineering to take place, because you have to put in alot of effort and work in order to sort out Assembly of higher-level languages.
"


That is incorrect. Disassembly means to take something apart, in the case of programs to find out how they work.
This is legal, as Philip and myself have already stated, even in America, for the purposes of interoperability. Reverse engineering is very much a grey area of law according to Wired, ZDNet and CNN reports.
I'm not going to debate this further, as the conversation is likely to degenerate into a series of logical fallacies on your part.


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Philip
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 07:23 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2004 07:24
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@Raven

The (fine) distinction you seek to draw between decompilation and disassembling, whilst no doubt arguable (practically everything is arguable after all), is not recognised by English and Welsh law. As I said previously, refer to the talk I gave to the Con which addressed this topic.

NB: There is no such thing as "UK law" as we do not have a unified system of law. The two major systems of law are English and Welsh law, which is based on the common law system, and Scottish law, which is based on the Napoleonic code civil law system.

@RobK

I can't speak for American law - whether Federal or State. I am only familiar with English and Welsh law.

Philip

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Clueless
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 08:06
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Quote: "I know for a fact that UK and US law, DO NOT allow you to take something, disassemble it and then back-engineer the results for your own purposes."


Perhaps we only disagree on implementation vs. intent, but U.S. law has and does allow for such a thing. Microsoft was built upon it.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 09:22
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Quote: "Microsoft was built upon it."


Microsoft took ideas, not code. This is after all what this all boils down to; the code itself..


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Phaelax
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 10:09
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So the sdk can be used for non-DB programs?

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Clueless
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 10:44
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@Phillip:
Quote: "However, given that there is still a plethora of bugs in important DBPro commands, some of which are fairly critical, sadly I still don't think DBPro is in a stable enough state where a professional games company would use it for "


I agree, but wouldn't limit the discussion to just a pro gaming company. The large bug list killed a very real chance to use DBP in a fairly large warehouse/inventory system where I work. Like I've said many times in this forum, I can live with the bugs and TGC's attention focused to other products because I don't program games for a living. I do program for a living though, and sincerely wish DBP would fit into a serious environment alongside Oracle, Visual Studio, Linux, etc. It just doesn't yet.

Having said that, if the new push toward this SDK leads to a more stable product that integrates with Visual Studio, I'm all for it, and would gladly pay for it. I don't mind paying for development tools. I just need them to be stable. I'd love another chance to push DBPro out with our inventory system here...
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 11:21
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Quote: "Having said that, if the new push toward this SDK leads to a more stable product that integrates with Visual Studio, I'm all for it, and would gladly pay for it. I don't mind paying for development tools. I just need them to be stable."


I don't mind paying for it for alternative uses. Personally I see it a lil kick in the pants to have to pay for something, which we were 'semi'-promised when the first DarkSDK came out.

I want to create DLLs utilising the engine for DBP for Free.


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roujesky
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 11:59
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When do you guys think TGC will create a DarkSDK forum? Also releasing some docs and a sample app source would really go a long way to stirring up interest.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 19:35 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2004 19:36
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Quote: "So the sdk can be used for non-DB programs?"

You could, but it would be pointless - might as well use a standard VS template...

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MiR
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 01:58
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To solve the problem with no longer being able to use DBPro commands in C++ for use in a dll for free TGC could just give walaber a free copy to update the newton physics dll with. And of course give IanM one for being such a nice guy.


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IanG
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 02:02
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and one to the tca - because he has made so many plugins

Used to be Phoenix_insane registered in september 2003 despite what the date says to the left <--
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 02:25
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Quote: "because he has made so many plugins"

Quite true...

At the moment I'm testing it - yesterdays one was not too good when used with VS .Net, so hopefully that's been fixed today...

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APEXnow
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 03:42
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At this rate, I'm gonna need BB!! 43mb?? <gg>


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 03:44 Edited at: 24th Nov 2004 04:26
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And at the moment its not compatible with VS C .Net 2003

Actually Mike may need to do multiple version, like Ian did - one for VS6, and one for .Net 2003
The main problem with that is I dont think Mike has 2003...

Quote: "43mb??"

Examples!!

If IanM is around (and awake) - can he confirm whether he gets the 'cant find LIBCx.LIB file'...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 08:45
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Different libraries have to be compiled for
Visual Studio 6.0 / 2002
Visual Studio 2003 / 2005

There is a change in the libraries, down to strings and such. This said, personally I'd recommend in order to provide support for not just Visual C++, Mike creates the libraries as Control Libraries.

It would REALLY help developers of the .Net languages as it'll make it fully compatible across the board.
Then he can concentrate on the other version for just Visual C++ 6.0, which really if he develops it using multiple interfaces

C / C++ / COM, that should allow him to provide support for VB 6.0 as well as a number of C++ variations.


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micon
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 10:29
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hmm.. c++, + dark basic...seems like a good combination to me. i would buy it.

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waffle
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 11:04
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So is this lib in standard C++
or in OOP C++ ?

If a standard C++ lib, it should be compatible with the newest PB compiler. If it uses OOP, it could easily be made compatible using PB code, just a little extra work is all.
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 16:08 Edited at: 24th Nov 2004 16:25
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There is only one type of C++ (but many versions) - and its always has the OOP in it. You dont have to use it, but its there.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 16:13 Edited at: 24th Nov 2004 17:29
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From what is being said it is VC++ designed; and no doubt with the extensions that are Microsoft only. It is unfortunate more languages don't stupport COFF format past Borland; that said BCB is hardly grand at it.

[edited]


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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 16:26
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It was a grammical error - see the revised statement

Anyhoo - from the demos it is very fast, possibly even faster than IanM's one. Mike said he could get an extra 100FPS out of it, but that would probably increase the bigger the project.

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Ianhfar
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 17:12
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When will people understand the C++ is OOP, C is not, when you code with a app like VC++, but don't use the C++ functionality, you are coding in C. The name does not maketh the language.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 17:38
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.TCA, edited to compensate for your correction

anyways .. C++ is only Semi-OO, I don't think people realise just what is C and what is C++. It is quite strange to think how many people believe that C uses Classes, albiet they are quite passé in C++.

Structures are too now really. You seen how C# can use them.. god damn i'm really begining to love that language, it is just so.. so.. awesome!

C++ only allows you to do a sheer fraction of the program-ability of them in C#; you can code up how they react to given situations just as you would with a C++ Inheritance Class. So beautiful >_<,

well anyways, that's all i wanted to say really


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Rob K
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 19:41
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As far as I understand, DarkSDK does not make use of C++ OOP features. Effectively it is plain vanilla C.

Quote: "C++ only allows you to do a sheer fraction of the program-ability of them in C#; you can code up how they react to given situations just as you would with a C++ Inheritance Class. So beautiful >_<,
"


Could we have that in slightly more technical terms?


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 20:18
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Quote: "Could we have that in slightly more technical terms?"


You want the entire technical run-down of what C# can do over C++?
Cause ppl complain at me when I make H-U-G-E posts, and that one would be a doozy.

If you want to know how much it has over C++ there is a page on MSDN about it, but as I've only accessed it via the Help file, can't tell you where it is.


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Rob K
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 21:25
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Quote: "You want the entire technical run-down of what C# can do over C++?"


No, I would just like that one sentence rephrased.


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IanM
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 21:36
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Several corrections I need to pass on here ...

Libraries to compile for:
Visual C++ 6
Visual C++ .NET and Visual C++ 2003
Not sure about 2005.

The 'definites' above are proven (thanks to me, Nick and Mike working together-ish on it).

What can c# do that cannot be done with c++? Well, seeing as the current compiler and library set for c# are written in c++, the answer is obviously 'nothing'. Visual C++ compilers since .NET c++ (especially VC++2003+) can use c# libraries directly in addition to the standard library.

Easy of use is a different matter, but even that problem has disappeared with the newer compiler.

The SDK will give you a gain in speed from the Interface library, but I don't expect a massive gain. The only overhead added by the interface library was an extra function call, and a check to see if the function has been called before. On the first call, the DLL function address is gained. Using VC++.NET, this overhead is a grand total of 14 instructions containing 1 very predictable branch and a jump.

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Rob K
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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 21:47
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Quote: "Using VC++.NET, this overhead is a grand total of 14 instructions containing 1 very predictable branch and a jump."


I did a quick test and it takes around 3ms or less to get function addresses for *all* functions in the Core, Input, Text and 3D libraries on my system. The speed difference is likely to be very small, compared with any new or delete operations which a function might perform.


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Posted: 24th Nov 2004 22:23
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Dont forget that speed difference can build up over time, depending on what code is run.

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micon
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Posted: 25th Nov 2004 09:55
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aw man.. oop is beatuiful. I agree with raven, the structs in C# are too good. However, OOP is OOP for the most part. But using the ease of darkbasic with the object orentation of c++ is bound to pump out some seriously good games. Think of the possibilites. I want to reserve of a copy of this SDK if possible :-P plleeeeassseeee.

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Posted: 25th Nov 2004 21:14
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So it won’t be that fast and it won’t do much more than IanM’s interface did…

Quote: "I want to reserve of a copy of this SDK if possible "


I don't...

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Posted: 25th Nov 2004 21:18 Edited at: 25th Nov 2004 21:19
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Quote: "So it won’t be that fast and it won’t do much more than IanM’s interface did…"

Wrong on both counts. If anything its slighty faster...*






*Note : It seems faster - I haven't done any timing tests yet.

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IanM
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 01:47
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The bigger gain comes from using C++, so if you've already been doing that you *will* get a small percentage gain over the Interface Library when using the SDK. Just don't expect it to magically make your code accellerate to warp speed.

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Jac
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 01:58
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I'm still getting my head around the basics of programing and finding DBpro fills that hole well. My intention is to follow the well trodden "independent games" route in the near future making games that will sell successfully.

What would be the benifit benefit of Dark SDK for me know as I continue leaning how to program and what would be the benefit in the future when I start to sell games?

These are not the droids you are looking for.
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 03:05
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The main benefit is that it would be much faster than using DBPro - because DBPro executable is slow at the moment, you can go a lot faster by not using it

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Cloggy
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 03:43
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Would the SDK allow you to run a DirectX function like ID3DXFont:rawText which would allow antialiased text?

You would have to know the address of the D3D device so would that be available?

Not too familiar with DirectX but have been looking at the SDK and it would be interesting to try to add an antialiased text command.

Cloggy
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Posted: 26th Nov 2004 04:14
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It has access to some - but I dont know what yet...

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Proteus
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 04:49 Edited at: 27th Nov 2004 06:40
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@Tca:
Quote: "won’t be that fast "


@IanM:

Quote: "The bigger gain comes from using C++, "


Yup it's really wonderful to code in C++ using Dbp's engine , Your interface library really helped me during my final high-school project (my objective was to reconstruct a maze in Dbp’s 3d from the data acquired by a little probe "robot") , and apart from that I was coding my "elite clone" with it, now you can see why I’m not that happy with this sdk...

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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 06:19
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Sorry - I dont get it...

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Proteus
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 06:35 Edited at: 27th Nov 2004 06:37
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I meant to say that this SDK is IanM's idea(Dbp + Cpp) gone commercial... I don't believe that TGC had this planned until the success of his interface ...

I just think he should be getting something out of it...

(* I realise that without TGC we wouldn't be here right now but I still think he should get something )

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Chris K
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 06:38
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He'll get a poke in the eye and no more.
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 07:22
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I think I may have mentioned something it being nice to use in VS shortly before his Royal Interfaceness did the Interface system - I dont think Mike/Lee thought it would be wiser to wait a bit before doing something like this.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 27th Nov 2004 08:28
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It seems to me that the emphasis and somewhat negative feeling towards the new SDK is that people are inclined not to pay for a new product that was originally conceived by Ian. I don't have any gripes or side taking on the subject other than the fact that it would probably be in TGCs best interests if they were to sell the product in two flavours. One for people who would pay for the SDK but do not have DarkBASIC Professional or have never used the product, in which case this would be sold at a regular price. For those of us who have DBP, a good discount that is acceptable in which the SDK can be used inconjunction with DarkBASIC Professional, not only for plugin development but for standalone applications as well.

Generally my feelings are that an incentive should be provided from TGC that will make the change to the SDK worth it's weight in gold. I love using IanM's interface library, and are continuing to do so until the SDK is at a state which will benefit not just existing versions of DarkBASIC Professional, but future versions as well. As we all know, the interface library is now unavailable so the choice will have to be made anyway.

Paul.


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