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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / - DBPro Coding Challenges -

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CPU
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 15:22
Wow... didn't know if I had a chance against ric, musta been real hard cause I don't know how I woulda picked...

anyways:

@Phaelax - I'm not sure what has happend, All the loops and statements are full and not cut off like they are when I posted them, pehaps its just the filter I have installed or the firewall or... I don't know! cause its definantly not like that on the orginal source code, so I'm totaly at a loss as to exactly why it keeps posting like that. So thanks ric for cleaning up my code

@Ric - I believe I know my responsibilities... Some kind of coding challange, no media, and I think I have an idea...

@Nic T - Well, we'll have to see... I've got a few Ideas floating around in my head.

@Everyone - I'll post the the challange no later than tomorrow once I get the idea fully fleshed out...

Cheers to all contestants,

CPU

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RiiDii
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 17:51
Congratulations CPU! <Whew! Good thing I caught that. Ric might have pulled ahead of me on wins >

Quote: "A thousand apologies for being such a dunce."

Naw! Ric was hiding CPU's entry in all those pics in order to pull ahead on wins .

Seriously Ric, great work and very creative. I will be playing with that technique for quite some time. I'm already looking at matrix-grass or terrain-grass. I'm also thinking cloth effects, as well as your thoughts on using it for hair.


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CPU
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 18:51 Edited at: 8th Sep 2005 00:25
New Compo Chalange


Catagory:
Blur/Distortion Effect (via Ric's table)


Decription:

Ok, The chalange, but first let me put in a little two cents.
The main chunk of the chalange is going to be a little difficult, basicly the chalange is to give peripheral vision to a FPS player, however it can't be as simple as setting the FOV to 180, the ideal entry would have the FOV 90 taking up about the center 3/4 of the screen with the remaining 1/4 around the edge being the extra "peripheral" vision.

Now to add spice and creativity to this (as if I'm not making it hard enough) bonus points will be awarded if you can switch between modes (ie 90degree, the "peripheral" mode, and full 180 mode) and even more kudos if you can set how much of the screen is taken up by the 90 degree "normal" vision, more points again if when(if you have the ability) you switch between modes that it smoothly transitions. Small things like mabey bluring the edges of the peripheral vision could also be added in if it makes it look more professional/realistic.

That right there will be the core of the chalange, however I might give extra points for screen wipes, fades, transitions and other things (like from black into the demo and then wipe out when the demo ends) or things like RiiDii's noise and lines demo I found somewhere could be extra points. But for the most part I'd use the little dodads to help me decide if things got too close...

Lets see, deadline... Well concidering the nature of the chalange I think I'll give it about two weeks, if someone thinks it needs to be shortened or lengthend quite a bit then I'll think about changing it. But for now I'll leave it for two weeks to end on at noon today... sorry I would like to do it at midnight but, I'm rarely up at midnight... sooo it'll be noon two weeks from today.

One main thing also need to mention is that speed is of the essense, In other words I'd rather you not blur the edges and have it run at 100fps than have it be 20fps and have the edges slightly blured...

Well enjoy, and if people think its FAR to difficult I could think about something else... picking a topic is so dang hard...

CPU

edit I'm saying noon from the server time, which right now is 10:55, so it'll be two weeks from an hour from now...

Edit II - As a suggestion by ric it would be, ahh... Highly advisable to use the island code for generating the terrain, that way everyone has a fixed frame of reference for designing there screen effects and it makes things easier to pick out in the final code if they all have the same sort of terrain.

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Ric
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 22:15
Certainly not been done before. Not exactly sure what you're after yet - by 'peripheral vision', do you mean the screen has to be able to go from a narrow screen setting to a wide screen setting? Wouldn't that be simply a case of sticking two black planes at the left and right edges of the screen and hiding them to reveal a wider field of vision? Not sure even why you would want to do that either, although I've practically no experience of fps games. As for creating a blur/fade effect which only affects the edges of the screen - now that would be an interesting challenge, and potentially useful for people's projects. Can't imagine doing something like that without a significant hit on the frame rate, though.

I'd be interested in hearing a few other comments on this challenge before I dive in head first.

RiiDii
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 22:39
I'm picturing a "wider view" of what's going on around the player (approaching 180 degrees). But the edges are either blurred or compressed. I'm thinking of maybe trying a "projection screen" in front of the camera so the front is normal view area - pretty much straight on, and the edges are angled so they appear compressed a bit. This way, the player has nearly 180 view area, but about 1/4 of that (the edges) isn't as detailed as the rest (the front).


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 22:52
ahh Riidii - so you mean having a kind of inside out cylinder and you map the secondary camera view onto the half that faces a primary camera (secondary = player world, primary = human screen)... Interesting...

Are we allowed to use pixel shaders? Is it at all possible to make a pixel shader on the fly, like as part of a project, have it generate a file based on settings you give the code (or command line) and it can generate the .fx file and then load it up itself?

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 23:29
Call be bonkers, but my theory was to desaturate the further you got from the centre of the screen, and blur it too. When movement is detected, you don't desaturate that part of the screen.

Giving the impression that the 'focus' is on the centre, and the periphery is only good at detecting movement, which is what happens in real vision.

However, with the player moving, everything will seem to be moving too - so I'd implement greater blur while the player moves.

How I'm going to do all this, is another matter
Ric
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Posted: 7th Sep 2005 23:34 Edited at: 7th Sep 2005 23:36
Ok, I'm beginning to make sense of this now. The inside out cylinder - or projection screen analogy helps. Almost like a variable fov across different parts of the screen. Interesting.

I'll make a suggestion, then, that perhaps people use my first person code from blue island to use for their 'test environment', to keep the challenge to do with the peripheral vision effect and not the 3d world itself. It's all called from the one function - 'terraform()', with all image and object numbers starting at one million, so there shouldn't be any clashes.



CPU
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 00:22
Your starting to get the idea, I think Ric's idea of using the 'test environment' is a grand idea, since none of the chalange relates to the 3d environment.

Let me define the perefrial vision part: We as humans have "two" visions, our tunnel vision which focuses on one object or section at a time, very narrow, and can see details in objects. The other vision that we have is our perefrial vision, the vision that we use when were waiting for someone to pop out at us from some random direction, and the same kind as we use when we "look out the corner of our eye" This second vision is more broad, we can see things in an almost 180degrees from our eyes or even more, however this outer vision is more limited and doesn't see detail as well, however this is very usefull when playing sports or other phisical games.

When ever I play a FPS game I always notice that I can never seem to see enough around me, which is where I originaly got the idea, and I could never see people coming until it was to late, or someone would be shooting at me and I wouldn't be able to focus in on them untill it was to late. The idea is to give the player the ability to see at the edges of the screen a larger picture of whats around them, and, although it may seem distorted, would provide a hightened awareness of the world around them...

@RiiDii - Thats more the way I was thinking you'd do it, that or something along the memblock line, but the final implememntation is up to you. Enjoy!

@Nic T - I would guess that that would be fine since it doesn't realy count as "Media" however it would be up to Ric to make the final judgement on if that would be allowed in the spirit of the rules.

@TinkerGirl - Thats about the gist of it, however the hard part comes in when you have the center 3/4 of the screen focused clearly at 90degrees and the remaining 1/4 or so focused in on the Remaining 180degrees of the camera, best way to describe it is ric's mention of "variable FOV across different parts of the screen"

@Ric - good idea, I'll refer down to your post in the original chalange...

Hope this helps clear things up...

CPU

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FDC
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 07:04
hi all

I didn t have enough time to finish the tree. Congratulation...all! the trees are very nice. i won t participate again...to many scool homework but i will try to come as often as possible.

bye
RiiDii
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 07:37
Quote: "I would guess that that would be fine since it doesn't realy count as "Media""


I think we've had challenges that create files. I don't see any problem with it. But like you said, I think Ric's final word is good. Just wanted to add my two cents.


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 10:56
of course, rules are one thing.. My ability to create shaders on-the-fly is a another

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Ric
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Posted: 8th Sep 2005 21:30 Edited at: 8th Sep 2005 21:44
<edited to avoid unnecessary waffle>

I really don't have much of a clue about what shaders are - are they written in DBPro, or another langauge? If it's not written in dbpro, then I'm afraid it's definitely not allowed according to the very first rule of the challenges - "all code must be written in dbpro". Not that other languages are a bad thing, it's just that this is the 'Dbpro' challenge thread! If on the other hand, you're talking about making a shader using dbpro itself (if that's even possible), then sure - go ahead!

CPU
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 03:01 Edited at: 9th Sep 2005 03:02
@Ric - shaders are usualy FX files that are loaded into Darkbasic using the "Load effect" command, There text based, so anyone could edit them, and there are some built in shaders that are automaticly used by dbpro, rainbow shading, cartoon shading, bump mapping, these are all examples of shaders. They are used and integrated by DBPro but can also be used by other directX applications, just like you can use a BMP or JPG file in other programs. What I think Nic T is asking is if he can have a program write his own custom shader to a file, load it, delete the file, and then apply the shader to an object in order to achieve the effect desired.

In all essence a fx file is a script file that tells directX how to make an effect thats applied during rendering to faces of the object giving it extra detail, like bump mapping for instance.

There can be some truely awsome effects made by shaders, Take a look at some of the demos on the "Ultamate shader thread II" for more in depth explination, and some truely awsome demos, personaly I'd recomend the Real time water demo, realy, realy cool, some of the best water ever made in dbpro, its worth a look if you check out the shaders.

CPU

Here's a sample of what a fx script looks like, basicly a text file that dbpro can read and interpret, which sometimes requires external media, but that can also be generated and saved.



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Coding Fodder
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 05:48
Remeber you can use limited Data statements. I don't think that shader with the comments taken out would amount to much in a 500 line program. I'd say go for it.

Personally I am not sure how to achieve this effect realistically the one method I thought of was going to end up at about 1 fps on a 3 ghz machine. (pixel by pixel memblock manipulation).

Does this contest specify a screen resolution? Obviously 640x480 would be easier...

Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"
xCept
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 06:27 Edited at: 9th Sep 2005 06:28
Do any released games implement a feature like this, yet? Just wondering (and I'd love to see a demonstration of peripheral vision in (3D) action)
CodemanV
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 07:22
Quote: "Quote : CPU ..... Edit II - Highly advisable to use the island code for generating the terrain ....."


Hello, where is this particular Island code located?
xCept
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 07:58
Quote: "Hello, where is this particular Island code located?"


Ric posted it about 9-10 posts up in a little code box. I'll repost it here

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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 08:57
Thanks
CPU
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 15:38
@Coding Fodder - 640 x 480 would be fine... however since the default resolution (or lowest for that matter is 800 x 600 it would be much better to do it that way, however I didn't post a rule stating otherwise.

@xCept - Currently, no game that I know of implements it, which is why I came up with this idea, got tired of feeling like I had blinders on the sides of my face when I was playing... But it'll be a chalange to see if someone can come up with something that works well and is fast...

CPU

[center]K-OS Battlefields
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Ric
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 18:39
Thanks for the example of the fx script CPU. It is clearly not dbp code itself, although I can see how it could be generated by dbp. I guess if you explain clearly what's going on in the script so we can all learn from it, then that can't be a bad thing - so yes it seems it should be allowed. One question, though, will it work on all pc's - for example, with integrated graphics systems and old graphics cards?

Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 19:41
What are we doing?

New dbpro site unleashed go to
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RiiDii
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 20:44
First Person Shooter peripheral vision. Not just expand the camera angle, but make the edges blurred, faded, distorted, somthing like that.


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Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 20:48
so not a world just a view that's cool

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Ric
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 21:09
You could always read the posts above to find out what we're doing! But, as you say - it's the view that's important here, so instead of spending time creating a world, just use the blue island world here:



and add your funky effects to it.

Ric
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Posted: 9th Sep 2005 23:57 Edited at: 10th Sep 2005 00:07
Well, here goes with the first entry. It's nothing as clever as pixel shaders or memblock manipulation, but it does maintain a decent frame rate, and have the following features:

Wide angle view
Fade out towards the edges
Variable blur - the view blurs more at the edges, and should be more in focus dead ahead. ( <edit> hmmm .... need to work on this a bit - since optimising the code, the blur has become more uniform across the whole screen)





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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 00:41
That's pretty good for a first attempt Ric! I like the fade and blurring of to the sides. I still have to do my shot. I'm thinking if I can do a semisphere "projector" object in front of the camera, it might do the the trick. I also want to play around with the different built-in pixel shaders and see what can be done. For example, I think light mapping can do the center of the screen brighter and the edges darker.


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CPU
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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 02:47 Edited at: 10th Sep 2005 02:49
Good job ric, definatly needs some work but has exelent promise...

remember the work is going to be judged by:

1. Does it conform to the rules of the chalange?

2. Does this view compared with a plain 90 degree view seem to "open up the picture?" without being overly distorted in the middle while having more distortion and blur/fog/effects near the edges?

3. Could you imagine playing a game with this form of view and not find it "constricting" or "painfull on the eyes..."

4. Do they have nice edge effects that aren't overly obtrusive?

5. Do they have "transitions" so that we could smoothly transfer from one view (ie 90degre to the special view, to even perhaps full 180 degree view?)

More just guidelines by which I'll judge them, listed in order of importance just to make it easy for you Hope it further helps sort things out as I'm muddling through my job as overseer(spl?)

good luck to all!

CPU

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RiiDii
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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 11:13
Okay - here's my stab at it. I think I hit a lot of the points.
1) Yes.
2) Yes. You'll notice objects to the edge blur (double) but in the center are clear.
3) Maybe. I think I would get sick after a while.
4) Edge effects are noticeable, but can be toned down. First try is exadurated to emphasize techinique used.
5) No. But that's an add in for later.

Angle is 130 & 132. Honestly, much more than that and I'd get sick. Besides, human eyes (I am pretty sure) don't do 180, and neither does the camera in DBPro (I tried it). I'm guessing 120 to 145 is probably realistic?

The nice thing about human eyes is that the outsides don't get duplicated by the other eye. This means the center is binocular vision, while the exterior vision is monocular (backwards from my code ). I think this keeps the fishbowl effect from happening. Unfortunately, the monitor can't do binocular vision, so the fishbowl effect happens since you are looking at it with "one eye". In other words, each eye has about a 90 degree angle to it, which is why 90 looks nice and not fishbowlish.




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Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 11:20
Thanks ric and riidii

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Ric
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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 13:08
Not bad Rii - although with your three cameras and large projected textures I only get 9 fps, compared with around 45 with my 2 camera system. What are the three cameras doing, exactly?

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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 17:12
Hmmm. I get 56 FPS. Otherwise, I wouldn't have posted it.

Camera 1 is taking the primary 130 degree angle shot. This is the main image you see on the screen. The image is applied to a plain. The image is then blended with a light map the is a white (RGB(255,255,255)) circle in the center and progressively darker circles towards the edges (RGB(10,10,10)).

Camera 2 is taking a the secondary 132 degree angle shot. This gives a second 'blurring' image towards the edges of the screen. This image is applied to sprite and alpha mapped to 10%.

Camera 0 is sitting down at 0,-20000,0 (somewhere there) and "looking at" the plain that camera 1 is projecting on to, "looking through" the sprite that camera 2 is producing.


@Ric, try taking out lines 34 and 35, detail mapping and light mapping. Detail mapping may not be needed as it's the same image. Light mapping is the progressively darker edges. The blur effect will still work. If that speeds it up, your graphics card may not support the shading, and the shading is being done by your cpu and not your graphics card?


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Ric
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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 20:32
The light mapping and detail mapping don't make much difference - but the three cameras and the 1024x1024 and 512x512 images they're grabbing cause a big slow down. I'm wondering why you need two cameras with slightly different fields of views to get the blur effect - couldn't you use the output of one camera, apply it to a transluscent plane, then just position it slightly infront of the original projected image, so it appears slightly larger? Would still be in focus in the middle and blurred at the edges.

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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 21:39
Whens the comp finish because my pc monitor went bang before i got a chance to start on it

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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 22:19
Ric - great minds think alike : I tried that first. The result was a lot more blue than Blue Island was supposed to have. It was more like Blue Universe. I can't explain why either - maybe something to do with the alpha mapping. So I went to the Sprite. I was trying for a blur, and that didn't work either. So, I grabbed the 512x512 image from a second camera and went with that. It worked.

But then again, my pc's been acting funny lately.

I was still able to run at 56 FPS though, so at about 1:00 a.m. I was mostly satisfied witht the results, posted, and went off to bed. In the end, sleep was probably the most impactful reason .


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Ric
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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 23:46
Blue Universe ...... now that sounds like a cool game!

xCept
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Posted: 10th Sep 2005 23:56
On my machine (Pentium 2.4Ghz, 512 DDR Ram, Radeon 9800 Pro) I get an average of 225 FPS on Ric's demo and 120 FPS on RiiDii's demo, just thought I'd mention that.
Ric
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 01:39 Edited at: 11th Sep 2005 02:00
Ok, so I need a new computer!

Here's version 2 of my code. Borrowed a couple of Rii's ideas - fading at the top and bottom as well as the edges, and I ended up using two slightly different fov's for the blur effect, which seemed to give a larger area in the middle which was in focus. Upped the resolution, but as it still uses just two cameras and a single 512x512 image grab, the frame rate is still ok.



Coding Fodder
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 03:05
Nice rii, You are using some of the same things I wanted to try. My light map keeps coming out all blue for some reason Not sure why yet. I plan on using it a bit differently though. I may do a bit of borrowing....

Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"
Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 11:17
Blue is the standard backdrop

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Ric
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 14:47
It's a bit weird, but if you press the space bar you'll see I've included a transition to toggle the peripheral vision on and off.



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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 17:24 Edited at: 11th Sep 2005 17:25
Yes I am getting the backdrop color. But don't know why. the snippet is basically what I am doing.



The trouble is that while the bitmap is properly drawn, the get image command just grabs blue. ARRG. Ric is there something in your code I need to know about. like this maybe.



Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 17:25
Backdrop is on my default you can switch it off with this command


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Ric
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 17:31 Edited at: 11th Sep 2005 17:34
Don't think it's the backdrop, as I already put 'color backdrop 0' at the beginning of the snippet. Maybe you're grabbing some of the camera's view of the sky, if it's coming out blue. Have you tried syncing before grabbing the image?

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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 17:36 Edited at: 11th Sep 2005 17:43
yes

I have tried just about everything. (with the possible expception of the true solution) I have even copied to bitmap 0 and tried to grab that. Still sky blue

here is the code. The plain is supposed to be textured with a gradient



Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 18:37
So... it seems Ric's mysterious Blue Island grows more mysterious

As well as more blue


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Ric
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 19:21
Oops .... er ...... perhaps I should have pointed out the blue fog added into the terrain function ......

set object fog 100,0 should sort out the problem.

Sorry

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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 19:23
ROFL


Open MMORPG: It's your game!
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21
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posted: 11th Sep 2005 20:18
@ Ric, good job, liked the fade in and out you put in there , would be nice however if you pulled the edge fog back to around 1/2 or 1/3 of what it is now would make it look better I think, although its good for testing. And if you could make it full screen (at least on the 90 degree mode if not on the wide angle mode as well, it would be awsome.

@ Codding Fodder - Looks like we might be seeing a good entry from you as well!

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Coding Fodder
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 25th Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere in my cerebralcortex
Posted: 12th Sep 2005 04:46
Ric thanks a big ol' heap. I was going bonkers. Did not even think of fog at the range I set the plain. now I can proceed...

Something really catchy that makes people stop and think about the meaning of life and say to themselves "My but thats clever"

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