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Dark GDK / Dark Game SDK and .NET

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monotonic
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2006 18:11
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Thats what I'm saying the plug-ins that are available for dbp are written in c++ and include the globstruct.h header in order to gain access to the internal workings of the engine, so this is also possible through dgdk.

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
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APEXnow
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2006 18:52
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Bare in mind that there are certain aspects of the DGDK.NET interface that will prevent you from accessing internal data directly. Purely because of the Managed (.NET side) / Unmanaged (DGDK C++ side), direct memory manipulation of object data will require custom unmanaged functions to do this. It will possibly be more flexible in C# because of the larger scope in data types and pointers, but VB.net will be more strict.

What I will say is this. ALL functions are available in the toolkit, except for a select few that deal with DirectX structure manipulation. So for example, these functions will require more work:

dbClearObjectsOfTextureRef - DirectX Texture structure required
dbGetEmitterData - Requires direct memory access pointers

dbGetObjectWorldMatrix
dbGetObjectCamera*

dbGetMeshData - Requires direct memory access
dbSetMeshData - Again requires direct memory access
dbObjectGetInternalData - Returns a memory address

There are a few others like this, but there are potential work arounds which can be handled using Array references and such, but they do need work.

Paul.


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APEXnow
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2006 20:07 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2006 20:08
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BTW people. I want to release some demos of this thing before the lake dries up. Things need to happen here, and it needs to happen quickly... (winks at the TGC team )

Things outstanding are: The help documentation needs to be updated to now include the C# usage of the toolkit, and add more samples.

The thing is guys, I have demos to release here already to go. But I need the go ahead from the team before I can do it. I will email Mike to notify of some extra changes that will hopefully give me the thumbs up to put something onto the board etc, i.e. the Asteroids game above!!

The DGDK (C++) version needs to be updated obviously, so that the DGDK.NET complies with the latest updates to the main DBP core engine. I cannot do anything on the aspect of my updates until this has been revised. But it needs pushing

Paul.


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monotonic
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2006 20:28
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Apex have you got any ideas on the pricing yet?

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
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APEXnow
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2006 20:59
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Not yet I'm afraid.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2006 21:26
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Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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Gunner
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 19:53 Edited at: 7th Jul 2006 02:29
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Oh man, this is awesome news!!!
VB.net/C#.net + DBPSDK = mucho happyness!

You have my vote!

I know it's too early to say but it would be great if DarkAI and DarkPhysX would also be included in the effort!
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 20:34
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the dgdk.net is in the final assessment stage by TGC.
hopefully sometime soon we'll have some release news

things are not stalled, trust me

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 12:39
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Now all we need is a (decent) GSDK update

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 13:51
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yep, agreed

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Inbetween Games
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 08:09
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It might be time for a FAQ file. Because I think I miss read a post somewhere. But..

If a VS2003 version of the dll was turned in for review, and, it was stated that a different version was needed for VS2005, then can we use the vs2003 version with VS2005?

Or..

If I plan to only use VS2005, then should I wait for the vs2005 version?
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Gervais
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 23:17
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Paul,

You did mention that you did have some problem with function that us pointers. I do use the memblock heavily to construct merge image in memory for my game because it is very fast.

What I want to know is this are we able use the memblock function just like before or is there limitation on what we can do with memblock function.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 02:17
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ALL of the memblock functions are there. The problem is with a couple of functions in the DGDK that actually return a pointer structure. I.e. one of the calls returns a pointer to the object mesh data via a pointer to a structure in memory. These are the ones that may cause problems.

Paul.


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Gervais
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 04:03
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And about this function "dbGetMemblockPtr" not to many problems using this to work on the memory image
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APEXnow
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 04:11
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That function is there, because it returns just an address. How you deal with the address under managed code is entirely up to you, but the problem lies in functions that return specific types not supported under managed code, yet!

This will improve as updates are released, but I'm just preparing people for things to come.

Paul.


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Gervais
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 05:28
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OK thanks for the information it is appreciated
If you have a small example in VB.Net code that will be fantastic but it may be too early for this.

Thanks for all the hard work in any case.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 16:13
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Quote: "If a VS2003 version of the dll was turned in for review, and, it was stated that a different version was needed for VS2005, then can we use the vs2003 version with VS2005?

Or..

If I plan to only use VS2005, then should I wait for the vs2005 version?"


we are debugging this topic now - I have successfully run code out of vs2005 pro, from the current "2003" dll. We are having a slight issue with something related to initialization, but runtime seems ok. It's too early to say for sure but I think it may be worked out that only one version of the dgdk.net will be needed regardless of the devel platform (vs2003 vs vs2005)

but thats not written in stone

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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Methusen
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Posted: 17th Jul 2006 05:53
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I am an experienced programmer, more than 20 years of experience, and I think that having DGSDK available either as an COM+ object or a .NET wrapper to the SDK will be a dream come true.

I really think C++ is too hard for independent development, .NET is easy enogh for everybody, but programming DirectX directly from .NET is not an easy task either.

If you are C++ or .NET programmer you will end up looking for an engine, because it is almost impossible for one independent developer to complete a game from scratch.

But with an SDK with all the functions that DBPro offers, and a nice development enviroment like Visual Studio 2005, any independent developer can get the job done, focusing on gameplay, storytelling and design.

For MMORPG it will very nice, because all the network layer could be programmed using the .NET framework and Direct Play, leveragin on database access on the server side.

I will buy it without a doubt.

Playing is the very reason for life, Making games convert you in a God.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 16:43 Edited at: 18th Jul 2006 16:46
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That's good to know!!

Paul.

[EDIT] To add to that, the new 2.0 .NET framework is so powerful to the extreme of what is offered. Take managing lists for example. Thanks to CattleRustler saying one word to me, Generics supported under 2.0 is a (unless your an agnostic), God Send!

Either way, .NET offers so much in general progeamming tasks, and with the added capacity of writing cool games using the DGDK.NET system, what more could you ask for.

Paul.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 17:11
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Quote: "But with an SDK with all the functions that DBPro offers, and a nice development enviroment like Visual Studio 2005, any independent developer can get the job done, focusing on gameplay, storytelling and design"

Amen brother. This has been my unending mantra for almost 3 years - they have seen the light. "Come children, all are welcome, all welcome, go into the light."

Quote: "To add to that, the new 2.0 .NET framework is so powerful to the extreme of what is offered. Take managing lists for example. Thanks to CattleRustler saying one word to me, Generics supported under 2.0 is a (unless your an agnostic), God Send!"

Yes I experimented with Generics in 2.0 and havent looked back at untyped collections since! Any programmer who uses collections in 1.1 or 2.0 (with vanilla "As Object") MUST have a look at Strongly Typed Generics Collections under 2.0! (Namespace: Generics) It's beyond sexy. The amount of code you'll not have to write anymore is awesome. No more iterator objects, no more For Each loops to find members before acting on them (unless you want to). You can simply "locate" the strongly typed object in the collection, and expose its methods and properties by simply accessing the Item in code.

I think I have calmed down and stopped yelling "Generics!" at Apex when I see him, LOL.

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 17:27 Edited at: 18th Jul 2006 17:37
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As long as your not raving about geriatrics or even genetics, thats okay.

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
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Zeal
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 01:47
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I started learning windows api a few weeks ago (to create a map editor), then I heard dot net has its own 'windows gui tools thing... stuff'? Should I hold off learning windows api and just wait for dot net? Does something about dot net make windows api obsolete? Or is dot net = windows api?

All you need is zeal
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 03:04
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.Net is its own runtime assemblies, and Vista was supposed to be fully built on it but now its going to be partial, at least the first release. .NET is increasingly becoming the mainstream platform in windows development, its by no means there, thanks to relics and dinosaurs that refuse to progress, but thats besides the point. Anyway thats my humble opinion so hopefully no one turns this into a .NET vs. X debate. I have been using .NET for professional and personal development for 4 years or so and I havent looked back.

Maybe download the express version (free) of VB.NET or C# and experiment with it. And remember VB.NET is no longer the red-headed stepchild of programming languages. In .NET its as OOP and as powerful as c# and c++ (especially in framework 2.0 which express uses exclusively)

good luck

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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Zeal
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 05:28
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But will I still use 'windows api' with dot net? Or is everything im learning now going to be worthless if/when I do upgrade to dot net?

All you need is zeal
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 12:39
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Quote: "But will I still use 'windows api' with dot net?"

no, .net is its own api, separate from win32api

.net is quite user friendly, give it a look

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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Zeal
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 12:49 Edited at: 19th Jul 2006 12:59
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Quote: "no, .net is its own api, separate from win32api"


Ok thats what I thought.

Everyone I talk to says "you need to learn dot net or die". So I think ill hold of making my map editor till I can do it 'right'.

All you need is zeal
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 14:01
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Quote: ""you need to learn dot net or die""

well, I wouldnt say its all that dramatic but its soooo damn good, I don't know why people are depriving themselves of awesome and powerful tools.

good luck if you decide to try it out (remember, its free)

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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Gen
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 04:01
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Quote: "its by no means there, thanks to relics and dinosaurs that refuse to progress"


hmmm... I know one of those...


Ever since I started with .NET 1.1, I could never go back. Now, I just need to come up with $800 and get Visual Studio 2005. Iwould more rather forget the Windows API for everything .NET can do.

Now, once DGSDK .NET is confirmed, I'll be beyond happy

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 12:51
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its confirmed, they are just finalizing for release

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Dangerous Dan
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 21:49
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Freaking awesome! This wait has been worse than a dentist visit. hehe
Glad to hear it's moving forward!
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Bob da reaper
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 11:33 Edited at: 25th Jul 2006 11:39
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2 questions

1) will this work under visual basic 2005 express? Because i'm too cheap to fork out for VS 2005

2) How much will it cost?

I pwn n00bs - current project "Darkness Falls"
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APEXnow
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 12:56
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1. Yes

2. Pricing information will be released by TGC when the time has arrived.

Paul.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 15:23
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and its grand in vs 2005 pro!
I'm not even bothering with 2003

ps apex, the stuff we did for 2003 and the Asteroids game broke under the new system, just fyi

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 16:29
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Now all we need is a GSDK update...

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
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Zeal
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 18:54
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Hey Apex have you been able to get everything working with the dot net version? Like shaders, ect...? Or is there still a lot of work to be done?

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 18:57
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im fairly certain: if it worked in the current dgsdk, it works in the .net version too

pex could elaborate on any particulars

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Zeal
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 19:03 Edited at: 25th Jul 2006 19:04
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Yeah I was curious about shaders specifically. Are you working with the 'current' gdk or do you have a different (better) version?

All you need is zeal
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APEXnow
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 20:20
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Zeal, and to the general populous. The DGDK.NET version is completely based on the current 1.1.1 release of the DGDK version.

Until TGC release an update, there isn't anything I can do until then.

If shader support is b0rked in the 1.1.1 release of DGDK, it is extremely likely that it's b0rked in the .NET version also.

Paul.


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Gervais
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 21:03
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Paul,

Simple question do you think that we may have a chance to see the new DGDK released for the next news letter or is it going to take longer then that

Thanks
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Zeal
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 21:21
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They better at least release a BETA before the next news letter. Giving us SOMETHING to test is the least they can do at this point.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 22:06 Edited at: 25th Jul 2006 22:07
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It's not tgc that is the hold up...
If I am not mistaken the Help files are nearing completion

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Zeal
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 23:07
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Quote: "It's not tgc that is the hold up..."


Zuh? Who else could be holding things up?

All I am saying is they should make sure lee/mike/somebody has enough time this month to at least get a BETA ready in time for the news letter. They dont need to go 100% gung ho like they did for the dbpro u6 bug week/month, just get a beta in our hands so we have SOMETHING to work on while we wait for this damn dark physics thing to be over with.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 23:17
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Oh :/ so no pressure then?


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Gervais
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 23:19
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Just two long years of pressure that all
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Zeal
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 23:20
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Exactly, they should be feeling pressure at this point. We have been more than patient.

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Gervais
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Posted: 25th Jul 2006 23:40 Edited at: 25th Jul 2006 23:50
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Paul

Just to give you an example they did start this discussion in April and we are still debating and waiting for it and during all that time we kind of did get our hopes up because this is going to bring the DGDK to a new level of development

So sorry if we look like a bit impatient but it has been a long time without any comment in the news letters or on the web site of the DGDK that all
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 26th Jul 2006 00:15
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Quote: "Just to give you an example they did start this discussion in April and we are still debating and waiting for it and during all that time we kind of did get our hopes up because this is going to bring the DGDK to a new level of development"


They (tgc) started the discussion because it was proposed to them about doing an sdk .net. The gave the all clear to develop it pending assessment later. Pex has worked long and hard on it since then, passing me beta's to test. Then the process of compile/test/compile/test/compile/test/compile/test/... etc adnauseum. Then tgc assessed the product and gave it a blessing, they haggle a contract, come to an agreement, then when all the coding is final, the help files need to be brought up to date <--this is the bit thats in progress, after that tgc gives final assessment and decides to release, or not.

Thats a very compressed development cycle - no one is sitting on their hands wasting time - in a word, "relax", we've waited this long, a bit longer wont kill anyone.

I doubt a release will be ready for next news letter, an announcement could easily be done - IMHO only.

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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APEXnow
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Oh ok... see, I'm just working on the DGDK.NET tool. I can't do anything about the DGDK update itself (C/C++) version. But my point is that I cannot update the DGDK.NET version until the original C++ version has also been updated.

I'm working on the help files for DGDK.NET at the moment, and this aint no small job. There are approximately 1400+ functions to document.

Paul.


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Zeal
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Posted: 26th Jul 2006 00:56
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Quote: "no one is sitting on their hands wasting time"


I agree, I know they have a lot going on now. THEY know they have a lot going on right now. And when they realized the gdk would be pushed this far down the list, they should have dedicated x time to get some form of beta out to the public (nothing fancy, just something to chew on). The fact that after all this time they STILL havent thrown us even the smallest bone makes it look like they dont care much about the community or their product.

Thus is why its getting a little hard to "relax".

All you need is zeal
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Gervais
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Posted: 26th Jul 2006 01:17 Edited at: 26th Jul 2006 13:44
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Paul,

The last post are not directed at you but them you your self did admit that you need them to release a new version to be able to release your .NET version and we would be very disappointed if after all your hard work if it go to waste which I honestly hope will not be the case.

We are with you on this project and pushing behind TGC
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