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Geek Culture / The Basic Binary Box: A Gaming Console

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 01:21 Edited at: 19th Oct 2011 04:55



Hey people! I would have posted this in the other thread of mine about this but i couldnt find it! Either way, i just want to show you all i havent lost interest in developing the Basic Binary Box (B3), it is still in development!

I have slimmed down what is on here until i get the console made, just for some reasons.


Looking through the other threads on the console, i realized that i said i would never sell the console. That is no longer true, the console will be purchasable! I have estimated the price to be around 120 USD.



Edit, found my other page, moderators please feel free to lock it as this will now be the thread for the B3!

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Indicium
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 03:02
Whey, third thread on the same topic. Have a cookie.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 03:46
This reminds me, where is Raven ?

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 06:26 Edited at: 14th Jul 2011 08:00
Quote: "Whey, third thread on the same topic"
Lol i just wanted to make a thread more dedicated to a specific console and it's name; i also couldnt find the other thread, and the other one after that is locked.

Quote: "Have a cookie"
What flavors do you have? Do you have a chocolate chip cookie with no chocolate chips? (i know, strange, but that's what i like!)


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ionstream
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 07:52
Quote: "This reminds me, where is Raven ? "


Well done good sir, you have made me laugh.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 07:58 Edited at: 10th Oct 2011 01:19
Dang why is this funny? I must know!

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Van B
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 11:09
Raven was like an astronaught who never went into space, going to a atronaught convention and bragging about going into space, then giving other (real) astronaughts advice. It's the sort of thread he'd make, then follow it up with a mocked up screenshot, then it would fade into reality/obscurity.

And that's a little bit what these threads are like. It's a lot harder to get recognized here, we are all backyard-geniuses, and here we go by hard evidence and results, because there are probably dozens of people in your life that would be impressed so you don't need more.
It's not enough to talk about the things your console might have, show us a shoebox full of wires, and we might take more notice.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Jeku
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 11:47
Yah, we need pics or it doesn't exist. Nice logo, though.


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 12:23 Edited at: 11th Jul 2011 12:29
Ahh you guys have good points. I know you will think im crazy but no physical part of the console has been made yet, but i do have some component designs on paper, lets see if i can get an image.

Quote: "Nice logo, though"
I appreciate! The one on the OP has some weird issues when i blurred it where it aliased the text, creating a strange affect if you know what im talking about.


It's the design for the controller, the lines that lead down go to the buttons. It's simplified, the clock would likely be more complex than just a chip and i will have to look at some data sheets to figure out exactly how stuff will be hooked up. For now, i want to quickly complete two projects before the console, a 4 bit binary adder made of SMD MOSFET's and a programmable LED lightshow thing! I expect real, physical console development by the end of the year, from there, things should go quick!

Also, you guys should try to figure out the controller protocol; tell me your guess and if you get it right, i will think of you as awesome.



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Libervurto
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Posted: 12th Jul 2011 00:44
Do it again with a ruler.

The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 12th Jul 2011 01:01
Quote: "Do it again with a ruler."

This.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 12th Jul 2011 01:53 Edited at: 12th Jul 2011 01:54
Lol! Let's see what we can do then.



The 3 bit counter, the middle chip, has the trigger line coming from the clock on the left, and the 3 bit output is at the lower right of the counter. The multiplexer on the right has its output going to the data, and the 3 lines from the counter are the control lines. The other 8 are data inputs. The two logic gates below the counter are from left to right are a NOT gate and an OR gate. The buttons will be pull up or pull down networks; the whole console will be CMOS.



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 01:32 Edited at: 13th Jul 2011 01:32
I am also going to draw the schematics for the part of the console that will receive the signals from the controller.

I will explain how the controller will work now. The clock inside the controller will send an 800hz signal to the console via the pulse line, this way the console knows which button the controller is sending the status of. For example, when the console gets one pulse, it knows its getting the status of one button. Then the next pulse is sent, and the console knows the controller is sending the status of the next button and so on up until the eighth button and then the cycle restarts with the first button. The clock pulses will cause the counter which is controlling the multiplexer to increment, so the multiplexer will select a different input, each from its own button, to show on the output for each clock signal the counter receives. Each time the counter resets to zero, the controller sends the console a sync signal resetting the counter in the console to zero. Other wise, it may think the Up button is the Left button, or something weird like that. The status of a button is one if the button is pressed, and the status is zero if the button is not pressed.



MikeS
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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 11:40
I think a link of interest to you would be www.xgamestation.com. I think if you can go through that and understand the hardware and software you will have good grounds to do future development in the console/PC industry. It might also help you rethink you designs for your project here. Granted this machine is not incredibly powerful, I think it would be perfect for someone like you.

I'm not sure what your background is, but it looks like you have some electrical engineering knowledge, or interest in circuits you've picked up. Building a console is a big undertaking, so I'd encourage the XGameStation route to at least get your barrings.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 11:56
That would be a good thing to consider, and i have, but i think my electronics engineering knowledge is enough (anytime i get interested in the way any electronic works at all, i research it until i find out how it works) that i will be able to completely design in my self. I like a challenge! Looking at another console could make things too easy for me, but yah, i appreciate the suggestion!
Quote: "Building a console is a big undertaking"
This is what makes this project awesome! And the console wont be my first project, first i want to get some experience designing logic circuits; i will build a 4 bit binary adder, then i will get some experience designing an actual 'computer' by making a programmable LED lightshow thingy (the official name as of now). Then i will undertake the console. Until about a week ago, the only work on the console was all concept stuff. Now, its actual designs for basic things like the controller on paper as you can see above, and files on my computer which specify the console's specifications; currently it describe the formats the console will use, and it also describe a small part of the syntax and a few commands of the B4 language for the console.



CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 12:04
Quote: " Building a console is a big undertaking, so I'd encourage the XGameStation route to at least get your barrings."


I think his point is it doesn't really matter how good it is, so long as it works and he can say he built it by hand.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 12:52 Edited at: 15th Jul 2011 10:20
Exxxactly! Well unfortunately it wont be entirely built by hand, i cant seem to find where to buy a microscope powerful enough to make the individual transistors on the microprocessor... And even if i could, my hands arent steady enough. Aside from that, it would take a long time to make all those transistors! No but really, all of the soldering will be done by a machine at a factory i pay to fabricate and assemble my boards. Rather cheap to do so at least! I just wish the plastic injection molds were cheap to make, then the console would be more than a PCB in in an optional glued together plexi-glass case.

Lol kinda early to be thinking about this but does anyone know of a place i could get manuals/booklets for my console printed?

Edit: I have found a website that does so for cheap! So the console will have a professionally done manual rather than one made of sheets of paper i printed then stapled together!


Update: (copied from OP due to laziness)
I came up with an awesome idea to make a case for the console for very little money, instead of injection molding plastic, i would put acrylic in a vacuum molded 'mold' which would be much cheaper than a steel mold that costs gazillions of dollars! So the console may not require that stoopid plexiglass case anymore! And the controllers could be a little bit more comfortable to hold--no through hole solder joints jamming into your hands.

I shall also need to find a place to print custom boxes for a low price!

I would like to make this clear:
Looking through the other threads on the console, i realized that i said i would never sell the console. That is no longer true, the console will be purchasable! I have estimated the price to be around 100 to 150 USD. I think the production cost will be around 70 to 90 USD, so i will base the final price off of that.


Potential controller button layout:




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Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 15th Jul 2011 20:40
Well, i like it but the - button is an oval and the "Begin" and "Choose" buttons. I find the square shaped controller odd also, i have never held a controller that shape before but it seems like it would be very uncomfortable.

Your signature has been erased by a mod please reduce it to no larger that 600 x 120.
Melancholic
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Posted: 15th Jul 2011 22:18
I'm not sure nintendo would like you selling that controller design...

Also, just a side though, if you have none of the actual internals of the console designed, on what are your estimations of price based on?


I can count to banana...
crispex
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Posted: 15th Jul 2011 23:38
The ultimate question: What will make people want to buy this more than another console? What does your game system have to offer that nothing else really does?

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 00:41
^

You don't really get it, do you?

swissolo
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 00:48
Quote: "What does your game system have to offer that nothing else really does?"

it's homemade. That's it Unless its goal is "Retro" That could be an upside to some.

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TheComet
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 01:24 Edited at: 16th Jul 2011 01:24
Time for me to correct your schematic



I've circled in one of your severe errors... You have connected the outputs from 1 IC to the output of another IC... DIRECTLY... While this is not fatal for most ICs, it is technically a short circuit. It won't work.

Secondly, multiplexing your input is NOT a good idea at all. It disables the function of pressing more than 1 button at the same time. It works when pressing 1 button, but try multiplexing something like 0110'0010. It won't work.

Then I see that you place the clock in the controller... Why? It would be wiser to have one centralized clock, and transmit that signal to each controller.

And last but not least, there is no 3 bit counter You'd have to design that yourself.

I see what you're trying to do though, it just needs some refinement.

TheComet

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 01:54 Edited at: 16th Jul 2011 01:55
@Travis Gatlin
Quote: "very uncomfortable."
I had to design it with very little time so i simply drew a square, it will be more rounded in the end!

@Melancholic
Quote: "I'm not sure nintendo would like you selling that controller design...

Also, just a side though, if you have none of the actual internals of the console designed, on what are your estimations of price based on?"
I might want to change the layout a bit... Also, i know an approximate number of components and thus a price, and i know the cost of assembling and printing the PCB, so yah.

@Crispex
Quote: "What does your game system have to offer that nothing else really does"
I cant believe you are asking this. I thought i already made it clear what the console's upsides will be. First of all, it will be homemade as said. Also, it will have its own language, and will be cheap. It will provide a full explanation of exactly how the console works, and in the manual/booklet there will be a section on logic design etc. The console will come with ten games premade in the language for the console. If you still dont know what my console will have to offer for you, i dont know what to say. Thank you coffegrunt and swissolo for standing up for me.

@TheComet Thanks for outlining these things man!

Quote: "I've circled in one of your severe errors... You have connected the outputs from 1 IC to the output of another IC... DIRECTLY... While this is not fatal for most ICs, it is technically a short circuit. It won't work."
Hmmmm... How is it a short circuit?? These will be CMOS chips, so no current actually flowing. But then how should i correct it?
Quote: "Secondly, multiplexing your input is NOT a good idea at all. It disables the function of pressing more than 1 button at the same time. It works when pressing 1 button, but try multiplexing something like 0110'0010. It won't work."
I understand why you would say this, but in the console the data is demultiplexed and then goes to an 8 bit buffer. So as the console goes through the cycle of reading the buttons, the data is saved in a buffer. Why dont i upload an image of the the console side of things:



The console will simply read off of the buffer. There will be another one of these for the other controller as well.
Quote: " It would be wiser to have one centralized clock"
You are correct-i will put it in the console itself--thanks for pointing that out!

Quote: "And last but not least, there is no 3 bit counter You'd have to design that yourself."
I will just use a 4 bit counter and read the 3 less significant bits, so i only wont be reading the most significant bit.


Also, does anyone know where i could get those rubber contacts to but underneath the buttons in my controller?


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crispex
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 02:20
Thank you for explaining this. I apologize for not remembering why it was you were starting this project. To those attacking me over my question: It was not intended to be malicious or a "troll."

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
TheComet
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 02:24
Quote: "Hmmmm... How is it a short circuit?? These will be CMOS chips, so no current actually flowing. But then how should i correct it?"


Oh, current does flow. It all depends on your frequency, because the gate of the CMOS transistor is capacitive. Current is calculated by 1/(2*pi*f*C), where f is frequency in Hz and C is capacitance of the gate.

Current also flows from Drain to Source, the power dissipation is calculated by ID (drain current) multiplied with UDG (voltage over drain-source). Who told you CMOSFETs don't let current flow? Bash them over the head and tell them they're wrong

As to your short circuit... Inputs are high impedance, outputs are low impedance. If you connect two outputs, one is a logical "high" (which means 5V or whatever), and the other is a logical "low" (which means they are connected with GND), then theoretically an infinite amount of current flows from 5V to GND. However, most ICs have current limiting in them, limiting it to 20 mA. This still doesn't mean that you can connect them like that. So make that a base rule : NEVER CONNECT AND OUTPUT TO ANOTHER OUTPUT

The fix? Off the top of my head, you'd have to OR the two outputs.

Quote: "I understand why you would say this, but in the console the data is demultiplexed and then goes to an 8 bit buffer. So as the console goes through the cycle of reading the buttons, the data is saved in a buffer. Why dont i upload an image of the the console side of things:"


Run the maths yourself, it won't work. How are you supposed to multiplex 2 buttons being pressed at the same time?

You have 3 wires after the multiplex. So there are 2^3 possibilities. 2^3=8.

However, there are 8 buttons, and each can be combined with another to form 2^8 possibilities. (2^8=256). You can't multiplex it. The only time you can multiplex something is when only 1 bit is used at a time.

Quote: "I will just use a 4 bit counter and read the 3 less significant bits, so i only wont be reading the most significant bit."


That will work

TheComet

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 02:44 Edited at: 16th Jul 2011 02:47
@Crispex
Quote: "Thank you for explaining this. I apologize for not remembering why it was you were starting this project. To those attacking me over my question: It was not intended to be malicious or a "troll.""
It alright man, no worries. It's ok you didnt remember, we all forget things.And you werent being malicious, you simply were asking a question

Quote: "The fix? Off the top of my head, you'd have to OR the two outputs."
Which outputs? Seems a resistor would do the job! But you did point out that current does flow, but the rules of CMOS are supposed to only allow current flow during switching, correct? Maybe if PMOS or NMOS was used current would flow always but with CMOS, any NMOS transistor will have an input from ground or another NMOS, and vise verse. Parallel NMOS will have complementary PMOS in series, and vice verse. The input to a CMOS logic gate will always go to a gate, which being an insulator, will not let current flow, unless when switching states. If you look at a CMOS NOT, OR, AND, NAND, NOR gate you will find that is true.
Quote: "You have 3 wires after the multiplex. So there are 2^3 possibilities. 2^3=8.

However, there are 8 buttons, and each can be combined with another to form 2^8 possibilities. (2^8=256). You can't multiplex it. The only time you can multiplex something is when only 1 bit is used at a time."
Aha! This is why you think this--the output of the mux is the one going to the data--the 3 inputs from the counter are the control/select lines.


Plystire
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 02:58
Perhaps it would help if you properly labeled your schematics, namely the inputs and outputs of your ICs. It would also help if you completed the schematic, showing what voltage is coming in, going to where, etc.


~Plystire

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 03:09 Edited at: 16th Jul 2011 09:02
Indeed it would I will for future schematics but for now, i will just say the on the upper right of the mux is the output, the three lines on the lower left are the control/select, and the 8 lines coming in at the bottom right are the inputs.

So do you see my point TheComet? if no explain--you seem very advanced in electronics so i will trust what you say.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:
Quote: "Two important characteristics of CMOS devices are high noise immunity and low static power consumption. Significant power is only drawn when the transistors in the CMOS device are switching between on and off states. "
I appreciate your help with the design!

Oh!!! I totaly just figured what you are saying! You thought i was connecting two outputs, when i was instead connecting an input and an output! Ok, now i see exactly why you are saying there would be a short circuit! Lol dont worry, no two outputs connected.



Blue circle: Output
Red circle: Input to Mux(select)

Also, i know i have asked this before but where in the world can i find those rubber button contact pads? Also, will i need to worry about debouncing with that kind of button?

Well i found a company that might do so for a relatively low cost, so ill give that a try.


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TheComet
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 13:56
OH, now I see what you're doing... Well, as you were

TheComet

SpyDaniel
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 14:22
You might be interested in using this instead of drawing your circuits on paper:

http://download.cnet.com/Logic-Circuit-Designer/3000-2054_4-10840569.html

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 22:20
Quote: "OH, now I see what you're doing... Well, as you were"
Lol! Very good then!

@SpyDaniel This program should be a life saver! Thanks.


Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Jul 2011 22:29 Edited at: 18th Jul 2011 22:39
Hey people! I had to ask a quick question: Should i use an FPGA for my GPU or should i simply just allow the processor to do all graphics processing? If the CPU is fast enough it could probably do all of it, but it would be helpful to have an FPGA do the work... I was also thinking i could use a micro controller. Would that be any better than an FPGA?


TheComet
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Posted: 18th Jul 2011 22:44
Use a separate processor for graphics. Believe me, it will be A LOT simpler to program in the end

TheComet

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 18th Jul 2011 23:12
Thanks! So should i just make a simple 'sub system' with a processor, memory, and a BIOS to store the rendering program?


TheComet
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Posted: 19th Jul 2011 09:10 Edited at: 19th Jul 2011 09:11
Just use a Microcontroller... Simplest solution.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 19th Jul 2011 10:28 Edited at: 19th Jul 2011 10:30
Hmmm... But that would be the EASY way out. I probably will just use a buffer to hold the current frame, a DAC, some RAM, a microprocessor to do the calculations, and then a ROM to hold the program that will run on the processor. Essentially a microcontroller but just not on one chip.


Fuzz
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Posted: 19th Jul 2011 11:11
I'm really interested in this so I did a quick design for the control using MS Paint. I know you'll use your own but whatever.


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TheComet
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Posted: 19th Jul 2011 14:48 Edited at: 19th Jul 2011 14:49
Why do that? If I had the choice between a microcontroller, or a processor with seperate, RAM, ROM, DACs, ADCs, buffers, timers, etc. I'd choose the microcontroller without a blink!

Well maybe you like to do it the hard, painful way... So why don't you just make the entire thing out of transistors then?

TheComet

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 20th Jul 2011 00:53 Edited at: 20th Jul 2011 06:36
Quote: "I'm really interested in this so I did a quick design for the control using MS Paint. I know you'll use your own but whatever."
Actually, being that your design is quite like my newest design i do like it!! Really the only difference is that the two center buttons are replaced by a power button in the shape of the B3 logo. I will definitely keep your design in mind!! It makes me feel good to know that people are interested enough to contribute designs, so thank you!



Quote: "Well maybe you like to do it the hard, painful way... So why don't you just make the entire thing out of transistors then?"
Haha another reason i want to do it like that is because i would be able to show the user how the 'GPU' works a little better. Although it would be simpler to just say "image data comes in and out comes the picture" i want to show the person how it actually does that. However, for the sound i will most likely just use a microcontroller, i would definitely agree with anyone that says using a bunch of different chips for sound is over kill. But again, not for graphics.


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Fuzz
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Posted: 20th Jul 2011 02:15
Quote: "Actually, being that your design is quite like my newest design i do like it!! Really the only difference is that the two center buttons are replaced by a power button in the shape of the B3 logo. I will definitely keep your design in mind!! It makes me feel good to know that people are interested enough to contribute designs, so thank you!
"


Awesome! haha. If you want anymore ideas or help, just let know. I'd love to help out somehow. The controllers will be wired, correct?


Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 20th Jul 2011 03:16
Haha thanks! Yes, the controllers will be wired, but as you can imagine you will be able to unplug them. Also, possibly a limited edition of the B3 will have wireless controllers, and the cool part about those would be that you could essentially 'dock' them on the console to charge when not in use. But again, that's just a possibility for a limited edition.


Design Runner
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Posted: 20th Jul 2011 08:12
I made a quick mock-up model of the controller. Let me know if you like it, and I'll email it to you.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 20th Jul 2011 08:38 Edited at: 20th Jul 2011 11:52
Ahh that is SOO cool!!! I love it!!!!!!! Thank you so much man!!

Use this email: darkbasicdude79@hotmail.com

I think the logo in the center will work well for a power button!

Also, i need opinions; because my console will be designed to teach the user a bunch about game programming, electronics design, and even things like logic design and electrical physics, that would make a physical manual/booklet very large and thus quite expensive. So would it be better to just include a CD, and maybe a much smaller manual/booklet just for setting up the console itself included as well?

Also, would you guys like it more if the console came in things like assembled PCB's and plastic shells that you would put together or a fully assembled console? If you care to know, i will be hand assembling each console (or kit if it comes that way).


Fuzz
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 02:01
Quote: "I made a quick mock-up model of the controller."


That's awesome!

I think a CD would be best and maybe a piece of paper with a quick start guide on it.

Quote: "Also, would you guys like it more if the console came in things like assembled PCB's and plastic shells that you would put together or a fully assembled console? If you care to know, i will be hand assembling each console (or kit if it comes that way)."


It would be quite cool even just assembling a console haha


Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 05:09 Edited at: 21st Jul 2011 06:20
Quote: "I think a CD would be best and maybe a piece of paper with a quick start guide on it."
I figured as much! That will eliminate the 20 dollar 100 page manual.

Quote: "It would be quite cool even just assembling a console haha"
Hmmm, maybe i could give the person an option and ask them if they want it pre assembled or not, then i could put it together for them if they want. Originally the reason i wanted to make the console a kit is because i thought the only way to get a plastic shell for the console was injection molding, and the cost to make the molds is extremely high, like 1000 dollars for each mold and i dont quite have ten thousand dollars sitting around. So i thought i would provide plexiglass pieces the person could glue together to make a case, and that made the console more of a kit style. But just recently i realized that vacuum forming could make a suitable shell for my console, and that is very cheap, so that makes it more of an actual console that looks cool, not just a kit.

Thanks for the input!

I will also credit you two for helping me with the controller design. I might give you each a discount on the console for helping me. And i would include extra bubblewrap in the box too!


Fuzz
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 12:24
Quote: "I will also credit you two for helping me with the controller design. I might give you each a discount on the console for helping me. And i would include extra bubblewrap in the box too!"


Awesome So cool haha

Quote: "Hmmm, maybe i could give the person an option and ask them if they want it pre assembled or not, then i could put it together for them if they want"


Sounds like the best way to me.

Quick question, will B3 come with 2 controllers?


Libervurto
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 20:25
Personally I think you'd be better off buying a cheap game controller and fitting your own circuit. Plastic injection moulding is ludicrously expensive.
You could buy a controller like this for $3.
Another advantage is that if you ever went into mass production there's already someone making your controller cases!

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 22:25 Edited at: 21st Jul 2011 22:35
Well as i said before i found that vacuum molding can do what i need for relatively cheap.
Quote: "if you ever went into mass production there's already someone making your controller cases!"
If i did go into mass production, i would by then have enough money to get the plastic injection molds made. But thanks for the suggestion man!


Quote: "Quick question, will B3 come with 2 controllers?"
It will! The fun thing is that although they will both have the power button in the center, only the one in the first socket will work. Thus, if you have the first controller and the other person is about to win and you dont like that, you can just turn off the console. Also, i think i will use Ethernet style cables for the controllers.

Speaking of mass production, i will probably have a few kit versions and fully assembled version ready to ship at any time.

And also, if anyone wants to suggest ideas for a possible limited edition B3 in the future, please tell me your ideas! One idea i already have is wireless controllers that will be able to dock on the console to charge up their batteries!


Design Runner
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 01:57
How about a clear case with a bunch of LED flashing lights as different buttons are pressed?

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