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Game Design Theory / save the artwork for last...

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TechLord
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 06:37 Edited at: 5th Sep 2008 06:42
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I have been writting at games for over 15 years. In the past, I approached the design of my game with Graphics first. The sad part about this is, my 2D/3D Art Skills are lacking compared to my programming skill. Needless to say, a majority of projects deteriorated into vapor.

This is not happening with my latest Project, DarkMORG. I been grueling away at my Game Design and Code for over 6 months. I have never been so dedicated. The funny part about this is that I have absolutely nothing to show for it - literally. I have been focusing on networking, logic, and other game play mechanics that have nothing to do with how the game looks.

So if you having a hard time visualizing your game, save the artwork for last and start working on the game play mechanics.

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wind27382
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 07:15
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why don't u get the game running with little squares and circle. then ask artist for help

wind
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TechLord
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 09:44 Edited at: 5th Sep 2008 09:47
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Quote: "why don't u get the game running with little squares and circle. then ask artist for help"
I am and that falls exactly in line with my point of saving the artwork for last.

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Deathead
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 18:16
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Never ever, leave the artwork till last, as you need artwork to design your 3d characters etc.


"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic"-Butterfingers
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tha_rami
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 20:06
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Just do whatever is most comfortable for you. There's no set order of priorities or things you're obliged to do. Whatever works best, is what you should do.


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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 00:35
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Personally I like starting with gameplay and a model I've made in another game as a place holder, doing camera work, more gameplay, the start of visuals, world interaction, and just build my way up, letting the game sort of evolve as I code it. It's not very efficient, but I have a lot of fun with it.

I like doing the preliminary camera work fairly early because if you can get good camera work set up the game will look good even with boxes, setting you up for good visuals later, even if they don't look next gen. Mainly I say this because most everyone is stops once the camera is functional, even if it detracts from the games feel and SOD. Of course, I do a lot of work with cameras in all my games and am an artist, so I probably have more experience on that front than the typical coder.

So yeah, I agree that visuals should come after you have a game engine, but I wouldn't put it last. Like rami says though, each to his own; whatever works.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 01:56
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Quote: "I have absolutely nothing to show for it"

That's tragically sad.

You can't save the artwork for last. Just because you've tried to approach this weakness of your projects differently doesn't mean you'll be successful because of the new approach. I've found that artwork is integral to the functionality of the engine, both in function and design.


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Xenocythe
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 18:03
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You've shown me a couple screenshots, and you do have a lot to show for it. Don't feel like you havent done any work at all, and you've just been wasting your time.

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TechLord
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 09:56 Edited at: 8th Sep 2008 09:57
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Quote: "Xenocythe: Don't feel like you havent done any work at all, and you've just been wasting your time."
I have to admit the title is a lil misleading and fails to convey my intent of this discussion.

In the past, my development was motivated by a particular graphics style I visualized in my mind. I visualized cool looking characters and special effects. However, when I could not bring these concepts to reality visually, my motivation ran out.

My approach with DarkMORG is different. I'm developing the game mechanics first and I'm using primitives and FPS Creator models w/animation for placeholders. At the moment, I don't have any specific art style that I want to pursue with the game engine.

Quote: "Deathead: Never ever, leave the artwork til last, as you need artwork to design your 3d characters etc."
I agree you need artwork to design your 3D characters, but, dont need 3D characters to design gameplay mechanics first.

Quote: "Cash Curtis II: Just because you've tried to approach this weakness of your projects differently doesn't mean you'll be successful because of the new approach. "
Thanks for the words of encouragement, Cash. LOL.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 10th Sep 2008 14:33
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Quote: "In the past, my development was motivated by a particular graphics style I visualized in my mind."

While any game I make is going to have a style of some sort, I focus the development on the technical requirements that the art will require. With a complex engine if you have no art then you'll end up reworking the entire thing to make it all fit. Plus, you'll have no idea how well your game runs and as such will have taken none of the measures to ensure that it is as efficient as possible. With a bunch of primitives there is no need.

Might I recommend creating all of the assets for a very small part of the game? A building or two, a character using an animation set you'll be using, vegetation, etc. Then you haven't sunk all of your time into it and it's easier to expand.


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TechLord
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Posted: 11th Sep 2008 10:48
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Quote: "Cash Curtis II: While any game I make is going to have a style of some sort, I focus the development on the technical requirements that the art will require. With a complex engine if you have no art then you'll end up reworking the entire thing to make it all fit. Plus, you'll have no idea how well your game runs and as such will have taken none of the measures to ensure that it is as efficient as possible. With a bunch of primitives there is no need."
I agree and I'm also developing DarkMORG with Graphic performance requirements {Octree Culling, Level Of Detail, Shaders, etc.} in mind, I just have no particular art style for the 'Game' I intend use the Server/Client for. Although the server doesnt display any graphics, 3D geometry for collision detection is required. I'm saving the artwork for last, not the graphics.

Quote: "Might I recommend creating all of the assets for a very small part of the game? A building or two, a character using an animation set you'll be using, vegetation, etc. Then you haven't sunk all of your time into it and it's easier to expand."
I've already accumulated a small library of free models and FPSC Characters as placeholders. However, it is impossible for me to avoid creating some 3d models due to how I'm implementing Modular Entity Construction Sets. This is where I fear, I will be pulled into creating a particular art direction, and getting demotivated if I fail to get it picture perfect.

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 11th Sep 2008 22:46
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I think Raph Coster explained it in a good way in his book, "A Theory of Fun for Game Design." He said that a game should be made entertaining completely devoid of bells and whistles at first. No sound, no explosions -- nothing. Just the bare skeleton of the game.

If it's fun like that, your ideas hold true. And only then should you bother to make the game pretty.

At least that's my take on this subject.
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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 15th Sep 2008 15:34
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Quote: "While any game I make is going to have a style of some sort, I focus the development on the technical requirements that the art will require. With a complex engine if you have no art then you'll end up reworking the entire thing to make it all fit. Plus, you'll have no idea how well your game runs and as such will have taken none of the measures to ensure that it is as efficient as possible. With a bunch of primitives there is no need."

That's a very good point. Doing visuals at the engine stage saves optimisation work later. I'll keep that in mind for my "Big" project. Originally I was thinking of developing the engine and graphical effects and systems side by side. I suppose though they should be in the same engine though, so I can optimise properly. Still, with all the different systems I'm already even now building for the engine, I don't think I can avoid having to go back into my older code to optimise, as I'm already building the engine in segments in various game demos.

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Mike Inel
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Posted: 20th Sep 2008 14:54
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Quote: "Just do whatever is most comfortable for you. There's no set order of priorities or things you're obliged to do. Whatever works best, is what you should do."

I agree...
Sometimes, you need to make the visuals so you would know what you have to code...
On the other hand, you need to code first so you will know the requirements and limitations for your visuals...

Well, these mostly applies to graphics...

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 20th Sep 2008 20:32
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There's no simple answer. It's good to have something to aim for, and doing concept sketches, and even making media can be good for that. It can be good to motivate you and give you a flavour of what the final game could be like.

I'm not developing anything to really push the machine to it's limits, so polygon counts and that aren't important to me. If you are, then just make a high poly placeholder- like a high poly sphere.

I find i can get sidetracked quite easily by making media. I find i make rapid progress when doing something like a no media challenge. Also, develping parts of your game independently can be good- it saves on compiling time during development, and encourages you to keep things general and consistent. Meaning you can expand and reuse your code more easily.

Also, if you can make a working game, you may be able to persuade superior dedicated artists to lend their talents to it.

A final point- a game doesn't necessarily need to be great sans media (although it's a good sign!) I read an artice recently where the guy who made Defender said it only really became fun once they put the explosions in.

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sprite
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Posted: 21st Sep 2008 16:19
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I have the problem of lossing intrest in my projects so I came one with my way of working. Code until you have bored yourself then jump to the art and back again. It keeps the code and art from becoming boring.

I'll add something later on.
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StevetS
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2008 15:11
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Quote: "I have the problem of lossing intrest in my projects so I came one with my way of working. Code until you have bored yourself then jump to the art and back again. It keeps the code and art from becoming boring."


Exactly the way I do it. The creative arty stuff is a nice break from the harcore coding and vice versa.

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KeithC
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2008 18:05
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That's why I, and many other artists, make Free stuff...to use as placeholders (or actual assets, if you so choose):

http://www.blackdracogames.com/freebies.html

-Keith

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 24th Sep 2008 15:01
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Not to mention there's so much stock media for sale it's absurd. Before FPSC there was quite a bit, now there is an infinite supply of high quality media that is DBP ready. If nothing else it's possible to have media that will have similar technical requirements of your final media.

Mr. Tank makes a point with motivation - a game with just a bit of visual appeal showcases the potential much better than a bunch of cubes. That's motivating for the creator as well as potential helpers.

I've seen lots of projects that don't use media fail. It's not a magic answer, you can't just change around development steps and then suddenly succeed. Whether you save the media for last or do it first it really just comes down to the amount of time you put into it.

I think that people tend to have a strength and they focus too much on that aspect of development to the detriment of every other part. Whether you are an exceptional artist, programmer, or planner, no one skill will ensure success without the others.

I've got news for everyone too - people won't help you for free. People do help, I've had many fantastic contributions that are of exceptional quality and will be in the final product. With free help though you just have to take it as it comes and can't rely on it. Bits and pieces is all you'll get. If art isn't your strong point then you'll have to pay for it to be done for you and there's no point to waiting until last to contract it out. I've had tremendous success hiring out work.

Nobody ever said game development is free. It seems to be a common idea here though.


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KeithC
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Posted: 25th Sep 2008 17:32
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Quote: "Nobody ever said game development is free. It seems to be a common idea here though."

Yes....yes it does.

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