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FPSC Classic Models and Media / Your favorite entity making programs

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 9th Jul 2011 01:33 Edited at: 30th Nov 2011 02:45
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Hello all,

My first post on the TGC forums, and I have a question. First, a little background info: I would really like to create a truly quality games with FPSC, and I know a small part of accomplishing this is to create some custom media. However, before I spend any money or download anything, I want to make sure I download/purchase the best and fewest programs possible.

Specifically, I need a program(s) that will be able to make (as a final product of the work of possibly multiple programs) models for segments (would these be "meshes"?), plus various entities, ESPECIALLY characters. So, in detail, what I need is as follows:

- Character creation tailored to FPSC (modeling, painting, animating, etc.)
- Various entity creation (modeling, painting, etc. of barrels, tanks, etc.)
- Programs that can make a model for segments (or mesh, or both, whatever they're called and whatever is needed)
- Programs that are FREE, as good money is hard to come by for me

I have done my own research, and have found the following programs:

For Modeling:
- Milkshape (35 USD)
- Fragmotion (50 USD)
- Anim8or (free)
- Sculptris (free?)
- Blender (free?)
- TrueSpace (free)

For Painting
- Anim8or [paints models] (free)
- Sculptris [paints models] (free?)
- TrueSpace? (free)
- GIMP (free)

For Animation
- CharacterFX (free)
- Milkshape (animates models)
- Fragmotion (animates models)

That's all I can remember. I know threads like this one have been posted before (I used the search feature first!), but they never really quite answered my question, so I am posting my own.

Thanks a lot in advance!

EDIT:

Here is a complete Milkshape to FPSC Tutorial made by Anayar to help me on my way with my media creation adventure: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=188232&b=24

I hope to post all information I have gathered here for everyone in this first post soon. Until then, have fun reading the thread!

One of the most humbling days in your life will be the day you discover you AREN'T the best at what you love to do.
- Me
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AJ Schaeffer
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Posted: 9th Jul 2011 02:47
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Use wings 3D for inorganic objects (its free and easy to use)

Use Milkshape for character modeling (easy to use too)

Use fragmotion (which is free, trust me) for animating and stuff

Then use gimp or paint.net (both free) for making textures.

Making someone's day a little better because of one of my models means a lot to me.
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Design Runner
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Posted: 9th Jul 2011 03:26
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I agree with everything AJ just said. I also encourage you, should you get milkshape and wings, to do weapons in wings as well. Many bad habits can come from making weapons in milkshape (I learned the hard way).

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 9th Jul 2011 19:44
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Wow, thanks for your help guys

Fragmotion is FREE? Let me check the website...

OH! I see what you're talking about now. I originally went to the purchase section instead of the download section. Thanks AJ Schaeffer!

So, I've read the FPSC Community Guide, and I want to make sure I have this straight: Suppose I use a stock character's skeleton. I would import it to Fragmotion, then export as .ms3d so as to retain bone and animation info, correct?

Also, which would I use to rig the skeleton: Milkshape, or Fragmotion?

Now for texturing: I have seen the crazy looking images that represent the textures for entities. The question is, how do I create a texture that will properly paint itself onto the model? I mean, it would be really annoying if I had to keep editing the texture over and over just to make sure the nose and eyes look right.

I'm new to custom media creation in general, so please be patient with me.

@Design Runner: Thanks for the tip on weapons, it will come in very handy in the future!

Thanks again for the help,
Captain Coder
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anayar
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Posted: 9th Jul 2011 20:32
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Quote: "Also, which would I use to rig the skeleton: Milkshape, or Fragmotion?"

All steps you detailed before this are correct. You can use either program to rig... just depends on your personal preference. I choose Milkshape because of its ease of use, but Ive seen it done in fragmotion. But if you decide to do it in Fragmotion, exporting a milkshape file is totally unnecessary.

Quote: "Now for texturing: I have seen the crazy looking images that represent the textures for entities. The question is, how do I create a texture that will properly paint itself onto the model? I mean, it would be really annoying if I had to keep editing the texture over and over just to make sure the nose and eyes look right. "

You need to UV Map it well. If the texture is properly mapped you will be able to place those eyes and nose's with the min. number of tries, but if its not mapped well... trial and error is your only option (learnt this the hard way).

If you need any help feel free to email me... Ill help you with whatever limited knowledge I have

Cheers,
Anayar


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AJ Schaeffer
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Posted: 9th Jul 2011 20:58
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Use wings 3D's uv mapper. IT is by far the easiest i have ever used. There are some great tutorials on youtube explaining how to do this.

If you don't know what UV mapping is, think of it like this.
Ever seen those little things you print out online that you fold to make sometihng? Its pretty much the same, just backwards. You take your 3D model, and lay out all the faces onto a picture, and then paint your texture on top of them. You can always google it too if you are still a little confused.

Now, milkshape and wings 3D are two very different modeling programs.

In milkshape, you make your model by making points in space (vertices) and connecting them to make faces.

In wings 3D you make primitives like boxes and extrude faces, connect lines, and other similar things. Better for inorganic stuff while milkshape is good for characters.

Thats why wings is WAY better for making guns. Its super easy.

Hope this helps.

Making someone's day a little better because of one of my models means a lot to me.
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Captain Coder
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Posted: 10th Jul 2011 00:29
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@Anayar: Thanks for answering my question! Does this still apply if I want to create my own skeleton?

@AJ Schaeffer: Thanks for explaining UV Mapping, I always wondered what that was. Am I correct in assuming that Wings 3D will prepare the faces for UV Mapping automatically? Sorry about asking so many basic questions, this whole world of game asset building is new and very fascinating to me.

So, as I currently understand it, UV Mapping is the process of creating a texture for an entity, and a texture is just the final product of UV Mapping. Am I understanding this correctly?

Thanks for all the help,
Captain Coder
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AJ Schaeffer
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Posted: 10th Jul 2011 05:03
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UV mapping is when you take your model, and unfold it onto an image plane.

Texturing is when you paint on the image plane.

And yes wings 3d has modes like projection normal which will prepare the faces for you.

Making someone's day a little better because of one of my models means a lot to me.
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Captain Coder
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 00:07
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@AJ Schaeffer: Cool. Thanks for the correction!

So, before we get too bogged down in discussing texturing and UV Mapping, let me get what I originally asked straight. I should use the following programs:

Milkshape for Character Modeling
Fragmotion for Character Animation, etc.
Wings 3D for UV Mapping, weapons, non-organic objects, etc.
GIMP for Texture painting, HUDs, etc.

If I have everything above correct, then I am all set.

Except for one thing: Since GIMP and Wings 3D are two separate programs, how do I use GIMP to paint onto a UV Map that is in Wings 3D?

Your help is sincerely appreciated!
Captain Coder
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anayar
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 04:09
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Actually, I don't mean to confuse you, but you can use any of the above (minus gimp) for all the above. It just comes down to personal choice

And as to the uv map question, there should be an option in wings3d to save the uv map as an image file

Cheers,
Anayar


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Leongamerz
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 04:22 Edited at: 11th Jul 2011 04:24
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Hello New User

I like used milkshape because it wa very easy tool.you can create entity,weapon and character but you need to practice alot.I used Paint.net for texturing.Truespace and Sculptris is free.I dont recommended Sculptris.Before I forgot,Blender is free.

Just buy Milkshape or use Wings 3D for modelling.

EDIT

Use Entity Maker to make your 3D model FPSC ready.

Poloflece,Anayar,PWP,Henry Ham,Cosmic Prophet,Wolf,KeithC,Nickydude And Lee Bamber is my icon.
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Captain Coder
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 04:32
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@Anayar: Cool, I understand what you're saying. I don't think I'll move around beyond the reccommendations you guys have have setup though, I'd rather be turning out as many quality models as possible than experimenting to see which program I prefer (unless I really don't like the interface).

So, after I save the UV Map as an image file, I open it up in GIMP and paint it as needed, right?

Thanks for staying loyal to my topic guys, this has been a HUGE help to me!

Yours truly,
Captain Coder
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anayar
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 10:54 Edited at: 11th Jul 2011 10:57
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Quote: "So, after I save the UV Map as an image file, I open it up in GIMP and paint it as needed, right?"

That depends too. If Wings saves it as an Indexed BMP file then you should copy the image and paste it onto a new image with the same dimensions. FOr some reason when it is an indexed bmp colors dont come through as they normally should... here, Ill show you:

Open your UV Map, which Im assuming is an Indexed BMP in GIMP. Mine is just an example from one of my PMC models; Note that Indexed and BMP are cirled.


Now press Ctrl+C to copy the UV Map. After copying go to File>New and Press OK (The size should be the same as your UV Map... If not make the canvas size the same )


The new canvas should show up like this... It NEEDS to be the same size as your UV Map. On a side note, its best to keep UV Map sizes in powers of two, like 128x128, 256x256, 512x512 or 256x128, 512x256 etc.


Now press Ctrl+V to paste the UV Map onto the new canvas. The image should no longer say indexed at the top. Now press the little paper button (As shown) to create a new layer out of the UV Map. Optionally, you can also press the Anchor button (The one that looks like an anchor) to make the UV Map the only layer on the canvas.


Youre layers should now look like this (If you pressed the New Layer button). If you pressed the Anchor button, there will only be one layer which will be named "Background".


Now go ahead and use whatever method to texture youre model. Here is my outcome. I couldnt find the source file (.XCF) for this texture which is why there is only one layer (Its just the tga opened up). Originally I had something in the range of 15-20 layers making up this texture.



I am currently in the process of writing a complete Milkshape to FPSC tutorial. If you can wait a week or so, it should be out by then. Its quite good (Not my opinion, but my testers so far have given me rave reviews ) It covers modelling step-by-step in Milkshape, UV Mapping in depth, Texturing, and importing the model into FPSC and creating required files

Let me know if anything was not clear

Cheers,
Anayar


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Leongamerz
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 12:29
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Hey I dont know about UV Map Anayar but this tutorial is help me alot,thanks.

Poloflece,Anayar,PWP,Henry Ham,Cosmic Prophet,Wolf,KeithC,Nickydude And Lee Bamber is my icon.
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Captain Coder
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 20:13
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I'm on lunchbreak, so I thought I would see how things we're going on the forums.

@anayar: DUDE! You have absolutlely gone above and beyond what I was even hoping you would respond with! Thanks so much!

However, I have a few questions:

1) Why would you use so many layers just to create a texture? Shouldn't all you have to do is just paint what you want on a single layer and be done?

2) Is it a fairly simple task to get a very realistic looking entity, particularly in the case of character texturing? That fire extinguisher looks fantastic!

3) What is the difference between using a single background layer and multiple layers when creating a texture, and why is it important?

And for anyone who reads this post, what method do you use for texturing?

Maybe I oughta just start a new topic asking for specific ways to texture something.

@Leongamerz: I saw your post come in just after I submitted mine. I would have responded to your post, but it was late and I needed to get some sleep. Anyway, I like your tips and thank you very much for posting them. However, I REALLY don't like Entity Maker; everytime I use it on one of the stock .X files that come with it, FPSC will crash if I try to use it in the editor! I just yank an FPE file from a character and modify it to my needs (NOTE: I have never made my own model before; I just liked playing with the scale on my characters).

Thanks guys for being patient with me!

Signing off,
Captain Coder
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AJ Schaeffer
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Posted: 12th Jul 2011 01:05
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Layers are good for things like say you have a barrel, and here are your layers

2. Details
1. Base Color

Then you could change the color if you wanted without having to re-draw the whole thing.

And Wings saves the uvmap textures as jpg (depends on what you export as)

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 12th Jul 2011 01:57
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Hmm, okay. I still don't quite understand everything, but don't get frustrated - I'm sure experience will teach me what I don't know now.

@anayar: I can't believe I left this out of my last post: I can't wait for the Milkshape to FPSC tutorial! I will most certainly be happy to wait a week or so... take two, if you like!

I look forward to making use of the suggested programs, thanks for all the help guys!

Most sincerely,
Captain Coder
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anayar
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Posted: 12th Jul 2011 04:57
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Quote: "1) Why would you use so many layers just to create a texture? Shouldn't all you have to do is just paint what you want on a single layer and be done?"

You could... but I like to hand-paint my textures and the grunge. In this fire extinguisher, the only image used was that label part in the center. The rest of the texture was hand-painted using a variety of layers, layer-masks, layer types and opacity changes.

Also, like AJ Schaeffer said, I keep all my base colors on one layer until the end. That way I can tweak the subtle color changes

Quote: "Is it a fairly simple task to get a very realistic looking entity, particularly in the case of character texturing? That fire extinguisher looks fantastic!"

Well, IMO it is, but when I was just starting I remember how frustrating it was lol. Anyways, my one tip to you if you want to make realistic textures (As the texture IS what adds the realism) is to learn how to UV Map well... that will hugely help you. Now in the case of character texturing it is different... Again,. for characters the UV Map matters a lot more than any other step because unless you have a good map, youre going to be spending a LOT of tiem positioning that mouth and nose And thanks for the complement

Quote: "What is the difference between using a single background layer and multiple layers when creating a texture, and why is it important?"

Same answer as the first one. If you only use a background layer, let me just say that your not going to get very interesting results... flat colors are basically all you can expect Ofcourse it depends on the model too... I mean, If I wanted a clean, flat-colored model I would just paint the colors straight on

Quote: "And for anyone who reads this post, what method do you use for texturing?"

I like to hand-paint mine. When I need detail is when I go to images. For example, in the fire extinguisher... Its a bit hard to get that label by hand-painting lol. Anyways, you can use whatever method you want in order to texture... Using images, cgtextures, hand-painting, filters, etc.

I had a question for you... Would you like to test a Complete Milkshape tutorial for me. When the tutorial is done, it will include Modelling, UV Mapping and Texturing, but for now only the Modelling Part is done. Let me know if you would like to give it a shot... I have a couple fo other people testing it also, just wanted to know if youd like it before the official release lol. Anyways, be careful before you say yes... its 27 pages long (just modelling) and treats you like you have never touched the pgogram before...

Quote: "And Wings saves the uvmap textures as jpg (depends on what you export as)"

O.o... I didnt know that. Shoot, talk about a waste fo time creating those images eh? I assumed that it would save UV Maps the same way as UV Mapper (Which is what I use )

Cheers,
Anayar


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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 00:51
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In wings to export a UV map, open the UV editor window, right click, select "Create Texture", edit to your preferences, then hit ok. Now open the outliner, find the texture (it will be labeled as Cube_AUV or similar), right click it, then hit export. Save it as tga for use in fpsc.

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 03:06
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@Design Runner: Cool tip, I'll remember that.

@Anayar: Wow! I'm honored...

I would love take advantage of your offer, but... if I think about it, it would be wiser if I simply left it to those who have more time than me. I have work I need to do during the day, and if I stay up late at night on the computer, I usually pay for it either the next day getting up late (ruining my schedule) or I suffer similar consequences later in the week. So, for your sake and for the sake of the others who need this tutorial, I think you should give such a privilage to someone who can manage their time better than me.

I am sincerely greatful, though, that you would ask me to try out your tutorial. Thanks for the offer! And thanks for answering my questions, too!

As for your indexed BMP tutorial... oh well, at least it helped Leongamerz, and I'm sure it will help others as well. Thanks for taking the time to help me out!

Hey, does Wings 3D export to DirectX? If it does, is it "good" exporter?
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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 08:09
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Wings 3d's Direct X exporter (it has one) is great. I have never once had an issue with it. A good thing to remember when scaling for export is this: A box, after placed on ground, is the size of a segment in fpsc after it is scaled 50 in the exporter. These are the settings I use for a segment(attached).

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starmind 001
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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 08:30
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Blender is free and it can do meshes, animations, texture baking, ingame videos, sculpt, vertex paint, uv map and many other things. I prefer version 2.49, but I still use my milkshape and fragmotion. Just recently I bought zbrush and with blender I am seeing a whole new look at game design. I can sculpt like crazy now.

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 13th Jul 2011 22:20
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@Design Runner: I didn't know you scaled things when you were getting ready to export. THANK YOU, I will remember that.

@starmind 001: Thanks for the advice. How on earth did you get zbrush? Isn't that like $600 (USD)?

Let me move onto another topic: segment creation. What are meshes, and what do I use to make them (in addition to blender, at starmind's suggestion).

Thanks for your time,
Captain Coder
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Posted: 14th Jul 2011 03:50
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Meshes are just models. Most segments have a floor mesh (model), and a wall mesh (model). When fpsconline.com comes back, which it should be shortly, I highly recommend signs. Until then, the fpsc segment kit, on the fpsc downloads page, works very well. I also recommend firma for basic segments, you only need to upload textures. Wizard of Id also has a very good thread on segment creation, if you search for it.

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 14th Jul 2011 04:04
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Oh, okay! Cool.

What is fpsconline.com (is it an official website for FPSC, or a user's website?)?

Firma, I've heard of that before... is it a free program?

Thanks for all the help,
Captain Coder
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anayar
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Posted: 14th Jul 2011 05:57 Edited at: 14th Jul 2011 06:04
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I think FPSCOnline is a user's website... Ive never heard of it though I mean, if its anything like fpsfree (was) or fps-files, then it must be a website full of free models from these forums.

Firma is a free Segment creator/Editor by Nickydude (I believe?). You can use it to create just about any basic segment. Unfortunately it has compatibility issues with my PC, so Im stuck making segments fpsc-ready by hand

Cheers,
Anayar

P.S: Signs is still for sale ?? Where...I want it lol

[EDIT] No Problem mate, Just asking because you seemed to be quite interested. But at that time I didnt have 8-10 people email me saying they wanted to test, so its alright lol Anyways, this thread has come a long way... hope you learned something (about this community AND modelling lol)


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fpsconline is where signs was sold, they are bringing it back as said in a thread a few months ago now. haven't heard anything since but I am hoping. It also had other content. Oh, the creator is Tschwartz I think. A name similar to that at least.

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 14th Jul 2011 20:38
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@anayar: yes, I learned a LOT. Your help as well as everyone else's is appreciated and will be remembered by me, if no one else This thread has certainly come a long way, maybe I'll post a summary of it for the newbies who have questions like mine.

I will be ready to begin modeling soon (just need to get the programs), thanks to you guys.

I will come back later with some more questions on segments!

Captain Coder
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Ched80
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Posted: 15th Jul 2011 10:50
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I want to great my own custom models and although I already knew much of what was said I still found this thread very helpful as I'm sure others will so thanks to everyone.

[url="http://raptr.com/No_Turn_Right?src=em_forum"][/url]
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Captain Coder
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 21:07
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@Ched80: You're welcome. As I said above, I might post a summary of this thread down the road, maybe after I get some experience modeling. Even if modeling doesn't work for me, I think I will still try to post the summary to help the other newbies.

Never mind, I think I can get my question answered in the Community Guide.

Any other tips, tricks, or advice?

I do have a question about Wings 3D, Milkshape, and GIMP. Have any of you used the programs and then started having computer problems/viruses? Basically, are they safe to use and download?

Thanks for the help,
Captain Coder
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anayar
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 21:10
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I have used Milkshape and GIMP... and I havent experienced ANY PC problems with them. I mean, I have a powerhorse desktop back in the US which I know can run the programs with no problem, but even I was surprised when they ran with no issues on my crappy old laptop lol.

Anyways, to answer youre question, all the programs you have listed have NEVER caused em (or anyone for that matter i dont think...) computer issues

Cheers,
Anayar


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Captain Coder
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 21:23
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Sweet, thanks for the fast response!

This is Captain Coder, over and out.
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Captain Coder
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 04:29
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Hello all,

Just finished downloading Fragmotion and downloaded Wings 3D a few moments before.

GIMP is a really big file and my internet connection runs really slow when I try to download it, so I'll wait 'till later. That should fix it Been busy, so I haven't had time to buy Milkshape, but I will definitely get around to it.

Hey, does anybody have any tips on how to create a bone structure from scratch?

Thanks for the help and patience.

Signing off,
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 06:23
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Are you asking about fragmotion? If so, I'm going to work on a tutorial for it tomorrow. I have scoured the net, and there are virtually none, so I decided I would make a small series.

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 20:42
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Quote: "Are you asking about fragmotion?"

I wasn't before but I am now!

I imported a stock enemy but when I delete all the faces and verticies and try to draw my own verticies to create my own character, they won't go where I want them to go! Also, I've tried my hand at Wings 3D. It is simple enough (I can now understand quite well why it should be used for inorganic objects) but I have no idea how to export the UV map. I haven't taken much of a look at GIMP... looks complicated though.

At any rate, I will be extremely pleased with a tutorial on Fragmotion; just as happy as I will be when Anayar's Milkshape to FPSC tutorial comes out.

Thanks for all the help,
Captain Coder
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 05:49
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Oh, great... now I have a NEW problem . Entities I export from Fragmotion and Wings 3D do not mix well with stock media in FPSC.
When I put the appropriate files in the correct folders, FPSC runs like normal and will let me place these custom entities in my map, but if I try to put stock media (Aiko, for example) into the map, then FPSC crashes . When I remove it from the folders, I can load stock media.

First, is there a way to fix this?

Second, does Milkshape do the same thing (I have v1.18)?

Thanks,
Captain Coder
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spudnick
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 11:27
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Hi every one,
just to mention if you use gimp then you can download the DDS plugin, so you can load Fpsc stock DDS image files and edit them

Also to quickly convert images from Erm Jpeg or Bmp then i use a program called DDS converter 2
you can get that from here
http://www.gamefront.com/files/service/thankyou?id=3829638http://www.gamefront.com/files/service/thankyou?id=3829638

it is best to use DDS image files as it has the best quality and file size and other advantages.

As for Fragmotion, Well i love the program as it suports DirectX import and xport, and there is nearly no other program out their that does .X import,

Ie 3d Max (No) Maya (No) Solid works (No) Blender 2.5 (No) Wings 3D 1.4.1 (No) TrueSpace (No) oh the list is endless

As for truespace this is a great free program to do a lot with.

Link here
http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tS75/Brochure/Intro.asp

As for Paint.net i would not use for creating DDS files as it inserts a Paint.net header into the image and causes it to not load in fpsc, and so again Gimp is the one for me and its FREE
and does things more quicker than Photoshop.

I do hope one day that TGC make a proper Entity and segment creation tool with a model creation tool as well, so one could just make a chair for example and then just add a texture and then save it as a Entity, or buildings and save as a Segment or whatever
So basicly for it to work like Firma v2
Even if they put a price on this type of program, i would be the first to buy it,

As people can stop waisting their time and money looking for software to get there creations into fpsc, Don't get me wrong about other programs Like 3d Max and watt knott, but for people who are on a budget and just won't to get creating media ASAP then a FPSC modeling tool would be great.

i know we have Entity maker and segment creater, but these little tools are pants in their limitations/features way.
and if TGC had made an all in one program then there Forum would be 1.000.000 post's less

So i think we all need to Badger/nagg TGC to make such a program

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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 20:20
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@Anayar: How's your tutorial coming?

@Design Runner: Looking forward to your Fragmotion tutorial!

@Spudnick: Thanks for the tips, I'll remember those! Hey, do you have any problems with models exported from Fragmotion in FPSC? Because when I export from Wings or Fragmotion, FPSC will load the models just fine, but it will crash if I try to load any other model, even if the Fragmotion-exported model is only in the folder! When I remove the Fragmotion model from the file directory, I can load stock media again and everything will work fine. Frustrating!

If I can't find much help here, or on the other threads, then I'll just start my own thread.

Thanks for the advice,
Captain Coder
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 20:39
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Captain Coder, what settings do you have your fragmotion export on? And sadly I haven't been able to work on the tutorial yet, hopefully soon.

[url=www.designrunner.webs.com][/url]
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 00:29
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@Design Runner: I have left my settings on default. They are as follows:

Under FORMAT: Text is selected

Under OPTIONS: Hierarchical Mesh, Matrix Keys are both checked. A text box also has "scene root" in it, but I am not sure if that must be turned on by another checkbox.

Under KEY FRAME TIME: Frame Numbers is selected, Frames/Sec. is 24.

As for the tutorial, oh well, that's life Do post it when you finish it though, because I took a look online and none of the tutorials out there are for FPSC characters.

Now I have a question: I have been trying to build a character around an animated skeleton in Fragmotion, but I can't get the verticies to go where I want them to go. Should I just build my character in Milkshape instead?

Thanks for the assistance,
Captain Coder (or CC for short )
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anayar
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 07:26
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Quote: "@Anayar: How's your tutorial coming?"

What tutorial ... LOL, JK. Anyways, its coming... im about to record the last part (adding details). Decided to do videos for Mapping and texturing as writing it all out is a pain i hope it doesnt turn anyone away lol

As for you're fragmo. problems... make sure you're export settings look like mine:


Quote: "Now I have a question: I have been trying to build a character around an animated skeleton in Fragmotion, but I can't get the verticies to go where I want them to go. Should I just build my character in Milkshape instead? "

I would build my character in milkshape yes, but only out of personal preference (As i like riggign them in Milkshape too ). The most common way I think is for the character to be modeled in an external program (like milkshape) and then brought into fragmo for rigging

Glad to see you're still interested in the tutorial

Cheers,
Anayar


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Posted: 23rd Jul 2011 20:22
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I don't recommend doing any modeling work in fragmotion. It isn't nearly as powerful for modeling as any actual dedicated modeling program. But its animation tools are fantastic.

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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 12:28
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@Captain Coder

i did get the same issue as you did when i fist started using fragmotion with fpsc, with some help from another user it came down to my model being over the FPsc quoter's ploygon count,

so i then had some help from Pirate myke using 3d max to do a polygon reduction.
if the model was already created to a low poly thenyou would not need to do what i did to reuce it.
the model that i had issues with was a landing craft and now the polygon count for it is 37646 and seem to work now, but prior to that it was 93208 and so i guessing that Fpsc does not like any model to be over 40000 polygons,
i may be wrong but thats what i have worked out for myself.

if you have 3d max you can check the polygon count by going to Utilities - and clicking on (More)- (Poygon Counter)

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anayar
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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 12:52
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Quote: "if you have 3d max you can check the polygon count by going to Utilities - and clicking on (More)- (Poygon Counter)"

Or you could just press "7" ?

Also, 37,646 polies is WAAAY too high for ANY model in FPSC Creator. Seriously, try and bring it down further. In the modifier list, use ProOptimizer... it works like a charm Got a 55,000 poly model down to 5k in a half hour (With a bit of manual deleting )

Anyways, i doubt CC has 3DS Max so...

Cheers,
Anayar


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Posted: 24th Jul 2011 23:22
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@spudnick: Thanks for the 3DS tip. As Anayar suggested, I don't own 3DS Max, but at least I can pass on the idea to others who do own it; thanks!


@Anayar:
Quote: "The most common way I think is for the character to be modeled in an external program (like milkshape) and then brought into fragmo for rigging "


I am using a tutorial that is teaching me how to make my character in Milkshape, except that we are building the character around the skeleton. Don't think it's much difference though .

Can't wait for the tutorial! I downloaded Milkshape a few days ago and am LOVING it. Easier than Fragmotion, to a degree. I still like Fragmotion because it helped me fix an animation error in my MP 12 Scifi trooper's skeleton (he would act all jerky and would occasionally, when walking around, just kinda levitate off the ground, turn sideways and look like a paper cutout character). Now he walks around and stands just fine. Of course, now I have a new problem - when holding a weapon, his hands stick out on the opposite side of each side (ie: right hand is sticking up through the gun and sticking out on the left side). I think I can fix this by attaching the actual mesh to a stock-character skeleton.

Anyway, I have modeled a box (the hard way - I didn't use the cube option on the right!), and am now wondering how to texture it. I have looked for the UV Mapper, but I don't know where it is. At any rate, I look forward to becoming skilled enough to create my own characters. I admit I have been trying to create my own character from scratch (minus skeleton) but have been going very slowly. I'll stick to primitive objects right now and after I master the interface I'll give a whack at characters.

Now for the nagging questions:

1) How do I animate a model? I see the animation mode in Milkshape and Fragmotion, but I don't see how you create animations.

2) Where is the UV Mapper in Milkshape?
- a) How do I save it as an image?

3) Should I use a 3rd Party program instead (such as Lithunwrap)

4) I've played around with GIMP (as a part of the tutorial I found) and I cannot figure out how to edit colors on a lower layer. What should I save my images as? And speaking of which, where do I find a .DDS plugin for a x64 bit Windows?

Thanks guys!
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Posted: 25th Jul 2011 00:01
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Oh one other question!

I would like to make segemtns that have gaping holes in them big enough for the player to walk through, like the ones in this ingame video from Virus 2: The Breakout: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyvmnA-8CRE

First off, can I make the meshes in Milkshape?

Two, what do I export them as?

And three, how do I scale my models properly for exporting?

That's all the questions I have at the moment.

Thanks for listening,
Captain Coder
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anayar
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Posted: 25th Jul 2011 07:08
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Alright, glad to see that you're making real progress. Im always available to help anyone who is willing to learn

Quote: "1) How do I animate a model? I see the animation mode in Milkshape and Fragmotion, but I don't see how you create animations."

The most common way to animate a model is to rig it to a skeleton. Take a door for example... it will have one bone which the mesh is rigged to, and the animation is done by moving that one bone at different points. IDK if that made sense.

Here... Milkshape uses a thing called Keyframe Animation. This means that all you as the user must do is move the bones to certain keyframe positions (key positions), and the program will fill in the gap. For example; If you wanted to animate that door, you would make one bone (by using the "joint" tool) and assign the whole mesh to that joint (in the "Joints" tab)... then you would click on the "Animate" button, select the joint you want to manipulate, move the slider to a keyframe, manipulate the joint, and then click "Set Keyframe" in the Animate panel (on the top bar). Im not sure if Im exactly right in all this, because I use 3DS Max for animated stuff, and the process is quite a bit different there anyways, here is a great tutorial that you might find helpful: http://www.planetfortress.com/tf2models/tuto/ms3d_sc/tuto_ms3d_sc6a.htm


Quote: "2) Where is the UV Mapper in Milkshape?
- a) How do I save it as an image?

3) Should I use a 3rd Party program instead (such as Lithunwrap)"

Press Ctrl+T to bring up the Texture Co-ordinate editor. I have never used it, but I know that some people swear by it I have always used UVMapper free for non-organic objects and Lithunwrap for organics... So I have no idea how to save it as an image if you are talking about the unwrapper that comes with Milkshape. You should know Psionic... do you? ell he has a bunch of great Milkshape tutorials... here, take a look: http://www.psionic3d.co.uk/?page_id=171

I use UVMapper free in my tutorial, so maybe you would like to DL and try that out?? Im available if you need any help, and my tutorial should be released tonight or tom. at the latest.

Quote: " I've played around with GIMP (as a part of the tutorial I found) and I cannot figure out how to edit colors on a lower layer. What should I save my images as? And speaking of which, where do I find a .DDS plugin for a x64 bit Windows?"

Can you expand on what you mean by "cant edit colors on a lower layer" Im not quite getting what the issue is

I save my textures as .TGA, but thats just personal preference. Ive seen textures in BMP, PNG, JPG, etc... FPSC converts them all to .DDS anyways And there is no special .DDS plugin for GIMP on x64 bit machines. I used the DDS plugin just fine on my 64-bit PC

Quote: "I would like to make segemtns that have gaping holes in them big enough for the player to walk through, like the ones in this ingame video from Virus 2: The Breakout: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyvmnA-8CRE"

Those werent meshes, they were created using an amazing, FREE program called HoleZ by Xplosys. Just do a forum search and it will come up

Quote: "Two, what do I export them as?"

Same answer as above, but just wanted to clarify that you export ALL models as .X

Quote: "And three, how do I scale my models properly for exporting?"

Thats a bit tough in Milkshape. You will need to import a Scaler... As in, something to use as a reference. I usually end up importing one of the stock chaaracter meshes and then scaling my props accordingly. Most of the time Im one power of 10 off, so I edit the scale in the FPE (From 100, to 1000), though the best way to do it is in Milkshape itself

Cheers,
Anayar


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Posted: 25th Jul 2011 22:36
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Quote: "Im always available to help anyone who is willing to learn
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HOORAY!!! THANK YOU Anayar!

Thanks for the information on animating, it made sense and I'll look into using sometime.

Psionic... name sounds familiar. I might have seen his replies in a few posts, but I don't remember where. His tutorials look fantastic (putting much more information in a lot less space than the original tutorial I was working off of), thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

I'll try some 3rd party programs, I can't seem to get the texture editor to show anything. Can't wait for the tutorial!!

HoleZ - Oh yeah! I remember that! Saw it on his website once. You say it's free? I looked it up on the forum search and he's charging around $4 for it. It's not much, but I plan my spending carefully. Even $4 means a lot to me.

Quote: "You will need to import a Scaler... "


My only problem with that is that I cannot have multiple models open in Milkshape, so I have no idea how big to make my models. I also do not like to play with scaling in the FPE, as I have heard it screws up the collision box, but maybe that was just for characters.

Quote: "Can you expand on what you mean by "cant edit colors on a lower layer""
That was a bit vague, wansn't it?

Oh, I had an error when importing a model to FPSC, but I can't remember what it was... oh well, I'll just re-export it from Milkshape.

Basically, I will save my images as JPEG, but when I import them back into GIMP later, it is all on one layer. How do I address this?

Does the scale of a segment matter when you are in the segment editor? Also, would it be wise for me to UV map a model of a segment mesh and then texture it?

At any rate, modeling is fun, even if it is frustraging to the point of throwing your computer out the window .

Your help is sincerely appreciated!

Captain Coder
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anayar
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Posted: 26th Jul 2011 05:53
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Quote: "I'll try some 3rd party programs, I can't seem to get the texture editor to show anything. Can't wait for the tutorial!!"

Well Im right there with you lol Seems like a pretty pointless tool to include in the program since it doesnt actually UV Anything

Quote: "HoleZ - Oh yeah! I remember that! Saw it on his website once. You say it's free? I looked it up on the forum search and he's charging around $4 for it. It's not much, but I plan my spending carefully. Even $4 means a lot to me. "

Its $4 now? I remember a time when it was free lol ... Anyhow, its a GREAT investment... Id grab it if you can

Quote: "My only problem with that is that I cannot have multiple models open in Milkshape, so I have no idea how big to make my models. I also do not like to play with scaling in the FPE, as I have heard it screws up the collision box, but maybe that was just for characters."

You must import a scaler seperately... then save that model as an MS3D file (name it scaler or something). Then open up your model again, hit "Merge" in the File menu, and compare the scales of the 2 models and scale your model up/down as required

And no, that is totally untrue. Collision works perfectly for me

Quote: "Basically, I will save my images as JPEG, but when I import them back into GIMP later, it is all on one layer. How do I address this?"

The reason for that is that GIMP flattens the image when exporting as JPG. Meaning it combines all the layers. The only format which proeserves the layer info. is XCF, so just save a file as YouModelSource.xcf

Quote: "Does the scale of a segment matter when you are in the segment editor? Also, would it be wise for me to UV map a model of a segment mesh and then texture it?"

Sorry, Im not a fan of segment creation... never understood it so cant help you there And yeah, if youre adding new parts to a segment, it would be extremely wise to UV Map. If your just using the stock segment then there is no need to map as there is already UV data stored on the model

Quote: "At any rate, modeling is fun, even if it is frustraging to the point of throwing your computer out the window ."

lol Anyways, its quite easy and simple (as I always tell Bruce) one you get the hang off it

Cheers,
Anayar


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Posted: 26th Jul 2011 16:40
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Quote: "its quite easy and simple (as I always tell Bruce)"


I wondered why my ears were burning today lol

Anyway, just been reading through this thread, there's some really usefull information in here, particularly about scaling and animating models

I was struggling last night to get my radiator model scaled properly before using 'Entity Compiler' to get it fpsc ready (there, I managed to stay on topic by mentioning my favourite entity compiler lol)!

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