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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Video card stops rendering?

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CumQuaT
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Posted: 26th Apr 2017 00:42
Hi all. I'm fairly sure this isn't an issue with the code, but it does seem to be unique to DBpro, so I thought I'd ask here.

Of the hundreds of people playing my game, Malevolence, I have one player who gets to the same place in the game every time he plays and the game just hangs. After getting him to record the console output I can see that the game is still running just fine in the background, but for some reason, his screen stops updating. So to him it looks like the game has frozen, but it hasn't.

Normally I'd think that the SYNC isn't being called properly or something is wrong with the code. But I have literally hundreds of other people playing it just fine and it works for them at that same point, and I myself am unable to replicate what's going on...

Does anyone have any thoughts on what could be happening, or tests I could be getting this guy to do to help me work out what's wrong?

This only happens in Malevolence - not in any other game he plays. You'd think if he had a broken video card driver it would be affecting other games, too...
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CumQuaT
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Posted: 26th Apr 2017 23:57
Hi all, an update with extra details here...

Through outputting console data I have established that while the video freezes in the program, the app is still definitely running, registering input from the user and running SYNC commands. But the graphics on the screen are staying perfectly still.
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Mage
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Posted: 27th Apr 2017 05:14
Maybe this is the same problem as what I posted about.
https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/219513?page=1#msg2602059

I am reporting a black screen but that is before I even draw anything. Perhaps this person also has the latest version of Windows 10, The Creators Update.
CodeName
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Posted: 27th Apr 2017 06:02
I'm no expert and am giving a thought, are you adding any new kind of effect in that part of the game?

CumQuaT
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Posted: 27th Apr 2017 06:40
@Mage - The only thing different here is that for this player, the game works perfectly fine up until that point.

@CodeName - I thought of that, too, but no, nothing out of the ordinary happens there. All I do is enter a loop which draws the ui (using the same function as in the previous section of the game that they came from, which works for them) only adding in one new image. I have tried replacing this image with one that I know works from another part of the game, and yet the effect still happens. At first I thought they were perhaps running out of video memory at that point, but upon checking that, I can see that it's not the case. Also, this bug happens whether shaders or enabled or disabled.
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Mage
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Posted: 27th Apr 2017 08:43
Quote: "The only thing different here is that for this player, the game works perfectly fine up until that point."


There might be problems with DBP and the most recent version of Windows 10. It might be useful to explore this possibility.
CumQuaT
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Posted: 27th Apr 2017 12:57
Quite possible. I do have another player with the same video card, also on Windows 10, who doesn't have the problem happen. However, I should compare versions.
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Ortu
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Posted: 27th Apr 2017 21:49
Can you provide him a version that loads directly to that point in the game instead of transitioning there from a previous area and see if it still happens?

Not sure if that would tell use much of use either way, but more info is good info
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CumQuaT
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Posted: 28th Apr 2017 02:50
Not a bad idea there, Ortu. I'll try that.
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CumQuaT
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Posted: 1st May 2017 02:11
Ok, so this only seems to be happening on computers running the latest build of Windows 10 and are using AMD video cards... Anyone using an nVidia card is totally unaffected...
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Mage
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Posted: 2nd May 2017 03:17 Edited at: 2nd May 2017 14:35
So the latest Windows 10 update <MOD EDIT Use of profanities not appropriate on this site>
CumQuaT
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Posted: 2nd May 2017 13:43
Surely that can't be the end of it, though. I can't turn around to paying customers and say "Sorry. The game won't work for you because you're an AMD user."
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Mage
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Posted: 2nd May 2017 17:22 Edited at: 2nd May 2017 17:27
I tried using DBPro 9EX but it didn't help in my case to correct these recent bugs. Might actually have made it worse.
zero32
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Posted: 2nd May 2017 22:02
did you try to use windows 7 compatibility mode?
i don't know about the specs of the pc's of your customers, but can you try to check if they have an onboard graphics chip you can revert to? if they have an i5 or something like that with an intel hd chip then this might work in some cases?
what happens if you use "sync off" at the part that freezes?
does the windowed fullscreen work any different than normal fullscreen?

i remember a software mode in dark basic pro, but i cannot find it anymore.
CumQuaT
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Posted: 2nd May 2017 23:59
I'll give those things a try, zero32, and get back to you! Thanks for the tips!
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CumQuaT
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Posted: 3rd May 2017 07:12
Compatability mode and running as administrator didn't work

Now I'm just stripping back all of the UI stuff going on in that bit. Sort of like doing an elimination diet, but with the features of the app.
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Ortu
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Posted: 4th May 2017 20:11 Edited at: 4th May 2017 20:12
Do they have thier amd drivers up to date? May need to do so

Have they recently updated thier amd drivers? May try rolling back to a previous driver to see if it persists.

It's as likely to be amd issue as it is a Windows issue, particularly if nvidia cards/drivers are having no issue on current windows.

If you have multiple users with this issue, compare dxdiag files and see if they have same driver versions, will be good to know if it affects all amd cards/drivers or one in particular.

(I mostly develop on a machine with current version of Windows 10 with an older amd card, I have not experienced this issue yet with my own project)
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Mage
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Posted: 5th May 2017 03:21
Ortu wrote: "It's as likely to be amd issue as it is a Windows issue, particularly if nvidia cards/drivers are having no issue on current windows."

You're completely correct that this could just be an AMD driver issue. However I'll mention that outside of the world of DBP, people are having big issues with DirectX 9 and Windows 10 Creators update.
Across the board people are trying to make adjustments to apps, even nVidia is assessing the need to update their drivers.
Blizzard is recommending turning off "Full Screen Optimizations" a new feature option located in the properties panel of the executable in windows.
OBS doesn't work properly and is stuck using some sort of fallback mode while they try to correct for the changes.

I just point this out since I have seen DBP bugs in the past that ended up being issues people generally had with DX9 being run on new versions of Windows.

CumQuaT
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Posted: 5th May 2017 10:14
Yeah, drivers were the first thing I got people to check. Everyone has the latest ones. Got them to try rolling back and that didn't fix it. One even tried totally uninstalling his video card, then reinstalling. Still no dice. This is happening across multiple AMD card models.

The only universal factor is that they all use Windows 10.
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CumQuaT
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Posted: 5th May 2017 10:18 Edited at: 5th May 2017 10:19
Interesting update... I found a universal point in my game where the rendering glitch would happen for all players experiencing the issue. This part of the game didn't affect anyone with an nVidia card. So I started doing things at that part of the game and sending these users updated builds. After a dozen or so attempts, I finally got it to the point where it doesn't freeze anymore by lowering the intensity of the UI rendering (drawing fewer sprites to the screen before syncing).

Oddly enough, there weren't that many sprites on the screen. Perhaps 20? I tried using different format imagery, too, and that didn't work. Though I think I might try using DDS images to see if it makes a difference. Most if not all of the sprites used an alpha channel. I've tested. It's not any one image causing the issue, as these users can load and render each of the images just fine (I checked). It's just the combination altogether.

I also monitored their video memory during this. It doesn't cap out. They still have plenty available when it happens.

So if I cut away all unnecessary UI sprites, it fixes the issue.

Now, while some may say "great! fixed!" it means that my UI work suffers a great deal, and I'd like to work out why it's happening so that I can keep my game pretty.
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Mage
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Posted: 6th May 2017 05:49
Perhaps there is something you can do with Image Kit version 2 or Advanced 2D where you avoid using the built in sprite system? If there was an option like that it might let you sidestep the issue. A bit of reworking sure but perhaps it gets you to where you need to be.

https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/176270
I notice Image Kit v2 has a lot of similar image manipulating capabilities like resize.

Perhaps this is a plan B.
CumQuaT
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Posted: 6th May 2017 11:03
At this point in the game, it would take months of work to implement. The game I'm talking about in which this issue has started occurring is Malevolence
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Mage
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Posted: 7th May 2017 07:29 Edited at: 7th May 2017 07:31
I know. Shtty thing is it might be the quicker, easier option.
CumQuaT
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Posted: 7th May 2017 10:36
LOL you may not be wrong there, Mage hahaa
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Mage
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Posted: 6th Jun 2017 18:35 Edited at: 6th Jun 2017 18:51
CumQuat wrote: "The issue with mine is that the symptoms only start happening after the player has been playing a while, and it always happens at the same point. The only problem is, that point has nothing happening at it except the contents of a small string array changing.

This code, by the way, worked perfectly well BEFORE the windows 10 creators update went out. Now it breaks the users' renderer and the sync command no longer works. Sound is still playing, and the player can still interact with the game, because it is actually running in the background. But the screen no longer updates, so visually it looks like the game has frozen, even though it hasn't."


I have seen it before where the error appears to be an innocuous thing but really the error was earlier in the program. In some cases the error reporting was wrong about the line number and in others the program ran a little bit before finally stopping.
If your error is something as simple as storing a variable then it is most likely that you have not found the true error. This might have something to do with the actual assembly code (which might not be completely correctly laid out). The fact that this is renderer related and appeared after Windows 10 Creator's Update is unsurprising. They've no doubt gone and buggered something up. It's odd though that this only happens after a while and not immediately.

Several factors make finding and correcting the problem difficult.
- The error does not happen initially, only after a while.
- The error is not reproducible on your test computers.
- The error may be deep in the DirectX 9 system and out of reach.
- Dark Basic Professional may have a bug that you cannot touch.
- Dark Basic Professional may be misreporting the details of the error.

Strategy.
1. You have mentioned that only 1 person gets this error and it happens unreliably at a single point in the game. This suggests that it might be related to his/her player data, the character, events, location and such. Maybe "the sword of chaos" is crashing the game. So it is helpful to know if the error still occurs under completely different game conditions.

2. In a case like this I would begin turning everything off until the error behavior changed. It sounds like you may have attempted to do this. I would do this down to the nub. The fact that the error only occurs after a while makes this strategy less useful.

3. Find out what it takes to recover from the error. Knowing this would be incredibly useful. Create a hotkey, maybe something out of the way like one of the Function keys. Have it reset a bunch of Display settings and camera settings (including SYNC MASK) and any other screen effects and if that is successful then narrow it down from there. When you discover what it takes to recover then you can begin hunting through the program to find the culprit. If the culprit cannot be found then it might be useful to build in a preemptive system to avoid the problem occurring. Such as if it were a memory leak, periodically flushing the memory might keep things running. If this strategy does not yield any results at all then you might need to give up on the issue. It may be a hardware issue specific to 1 computer.

Support Limits.
Your support on the issue will only go so far. There is a risk though that others are experiencing the error and just not reporting it. So this might be bigger than just one customer. However ultimately it might be a problem with his/her computer that you can't fix. In which case it becomes an unsupported issue.
CumQuaT
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Posted: 7th Jun 2017 09:37 Edited at: 7th Jun 2017 09:38
A couple of clarifications, just because I think this has gotten a bit messy as I was posting about it AS it was being discovered so let me clear up a couple of things.

- It's affecting multiple people
- It's only affecting people running the latest Windows 10 Creators Update
- It happens for them reliably at the same places every single time they try it
- Those areas worked fine for them before that point, and still work fine for 90% of other players (even ones also running Windows 10 but with different model video cards)
- In other areas that it has happened, I have reduced the amount being drawn to the screen and it has resolved
- In this (apparently last) place it's happening, even drawing NOTHING to the screen makes it happen
- Once it has happened, it cannot be resolved. The game keeps on working just fine, only the SYNC command stops updating the screen forevermore.
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Posted: 8th Jun 2017 11:06
Well that's not leaving a lot of options. If this is as it appears to be, purely a Windows 10 Creators Update caused bug, then it probably affects any program written by DBPRO.
At this point unless the issue can be narrowed down more, you might want to take a look at that DBPro 9ex. If that doesn't prevent the issue, it might allow you some ability to recover from it.

Other then that you might be stuck hoping and praying until Doomsday for some sort of remedy from Microsoft.
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Posted: 8th Jun 2017 14:00
I actually already completed the conversion over to DBpro 9ex and it didn't solve the problem
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Posted: 8th Jun 2017 22:17
There is a good chance this is affecting everyone and you're the only one reporting the problem.
CumQuaT
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Posted: 9th Jun 2017 02:06
Very true. I am the proverbial "squeaky wheel"
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CumQuaT
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Posted: 4th Jul 2017 01:15
Okay, so I've finally got Malevolence working for the people using Windows 10 Creators Edition who are experiencing the loss of sync. Remember, this is only affecting maybe 1 in 100 players, all of whom are using the same build of the game, and even these people could play the game just fine before the Windows update - so it wasn't a code error. I've been scouring the code working out at which point the video card decides to give up and stop rendering.

I have finally found the offending code..... Are you ready for this?



Yes, apparently Windows 10 CE doesn't like people clearing array data using counted loops. When it sees the above code, it tells the video card to stop updating the screen. Madness. Absolute madness.

When I replace the above code with this:



The game suddenly works fine for everyone, including the "affected".

What on earth are the people at Microsoft smoking while they make their updates???
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Chris Tate
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Posted: 4th Jul 2017 13:56
I just hate situations like this.
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Posted: 4th Jul 2017 19:19
Me too.

@CumQuat I posted a brief comment about this on the Malevolence forum today - but my comment is really superseded by Mage's comments above. Perhaps I should have come here first?
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Posted: 5th Jul 2017 02:14
That is correct scor.... er... I mean.... Green Gandalf....
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Posted: 6th Jul 2017 17:27
I just want to point out that going forward there's probably many more of these landmine issues.

I was speaking with Rudolfo about DBpro Ex the fact that the compiler introduces errors in the assembly small enough that they usually don't derail the program but sometimes things don't line up well or worse. It's probably an issue DBpro has always had. This issue is probably if examined, some long running assembly error that the new operating system can't abide but on older systems still managed to do it's job. The assembly code DBpro creates seems to be really messy, and I have seen others over the years complain that DBPro is slower at the same tasks than other programming languages. When I checked the assembly code myself (moving a large project to DBPro9EX) I saw that there was a lot of junk code in both versions of DBPro.

Then there's the issue of deferred errors. Where a problem can develop in the program and only crash later like when SYNC is called.
You're lucky to have found the problem in an area that you can code around and not at a lower api level.
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Posted: 6th Jul 2017 20:01
Fascinating cause and resolution.

Does it only happen with string arrays or any type?

Leads me to wonder: Is it something unique to dbpro? to any similar procedural language? to any lengthy synchronous / blocking type operation?

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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 04:19
@Mage - For someone near the end of a 6 year long, Kickstarter-backed project, that is f**king terrifying.

@Ortu - Even worse. It only happens with THAT ONE ARRAY. I have actually got plenty of other instances throughout the code of me emptying string arrays using a FOR/NEXT loop and it doesn't cause this to happen. It's just this one array in this one part of the code. Changing the name of the array doesn't help. Changing the dimensions doesn't seem to help, either. It's just the fact that there IS an array being cleared at that point in the code that causes the freeze. Horrifying.
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 08:13 Edited at: 7th Jul 2017 08:15
a dirty solution: add sync in the for loop
a slow solution: change the for to a while
a tedious and bad solution: hard code
probably the best solution with normal arrays: undim, dim // user defined types need you to call the free string command or the string memory will stay allocated. if you have a problem with UDF arrays with strings then use the dirty method or if the arrays are small then use the slow solution.

because of many problems with arrays in the past, i use the matrix1 unsave memory commands. with realloc, you can quickly make new space, write strings to memory and free it all in one go. but that is for new projects and because unsave, for special occasions (except you know what you are doing).


note: in dark basic arrays are always global. you do not need to "global dim". but since we talk about dark basic, it's best if you test this yourself.
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 09:23
Fairly sure I did come across the array issue when altering the newton plugin's vehicle demo(not the simple vehicle example but the only other one). In my case I was trying to make my own version of a tool that it comes with - the tool allows users to make vehicles and save them out as .bod files and then reload them using the example function in your own projects. I was having to do this as that executable was being funky with my OS rendering it useless.

Anyway all I was trying to do at a certain point was to delete an existing vehicle and then load a fresh one in. IIRC the issue was within the example function, various mesh ID data would be committed to an array within a for next loop. just before exiting said loop, if the mesh count was a certain value the array data would then be used with a newton command to add collision data to a different array(behind the scenes of newton ie not a DBP array). Outside of the loop if the count value was another certain value, compound collision would be created instead. Whichever choice was made would then be used to create collision bodies for the vehicle. It was at this point that an error would be thrown if the DBP array data had been wiped manually and/or rewritten(the function had to be made reusable so as to create multiple vehicles and/or replace an existing vehicle). The only option would be to dim/undim within the function.

Years earlier I had cause to alter the same function for a vaguely similar reason, but it worked fine to empty the array and reuse it. I do believe I was using an earlier DBP version and an earlier version of either the same OS(win7) or it might have been vista, so at some point it seems to have been broken, shame I cannot recall further details of these versions, but as the issue appears to be present in 9Ex(I think you said you tried it to no avail?) which is based on githubs GG version iirc, then the version must be before 7.1 I think as I am fairly sure that is what the GG version was rolled back to? In any case SYNC was not called before the error was thrown with the altered newton demo - unless newton itself makes some form of sync call behind the scenes.

What is worthy of note I think is that it didn't cause a render issue but threw an error which I am fairly sure was along the lines of the array returning the wrong value - 0. Almost like a memory address issue behind the scenes of DBP ie looking in the wrong place for data, kind of reminds me of an issue with multiple uv layers in memblock meshes where fvf's had some bearing(GreenGandalf might recall a discussion we had on a thread of mine about this - layer data was lost iirc) and also with direct memory access of VRAM using matrix1utils peek/poke commands, again where fvf's where affected. I think like Mage says, it is something that has a knock on effect that could well be unpredictable. All that said I am willing to bet I just confused the crap out of everyone haven't I?
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CumQuaT
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 10:02
Yes.



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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 12:10
Quote: "Yes."


Same here.
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 14:27
lol

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