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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Pricing your FPSC games

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 00:17
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This thread is going to border on belonging in the Game Design Theory board... in fact, I almost put it there, but decided against it because this topic is entirely based on FPSC, and I figured it would probably help more people if it was placed here. But it's intended to be a "workshop," so to speak... everyone can participate, offer advice, experience, or questions, but I do ask that everyone try to remain constructive and try to keep this on topic, because this is a topic that most of us are probably interested in.

I'd like to kick off a constructive conversation about selling (and profiting from) FPSC games. I'm sure this thought has crossed the minds of many FPSC users... and I can tell you from experience that its crossed the minds of most other walks of life in the indie development community as a whole:

How much can I/ should I sell my game for? How should I gauge the game's cost? What do people look for in a game when out shopping, and which of those qualities does my game have?

So here's the hypothetical situation I'm going to develop. Let's take a look at five different fictional games. Each of these has FPSC at its core, but each uses FPSC in different ways. Your game more than likely fits into one of these categories.

Game 1: This game was made entirely using FPSC, stock assets, and stock scripts. You might have used one (but no more than one) model pack, and you may have added a few new scripts (although more than 90% of the game's scripts came with FPSC).

Game 2: You're using FPSC and generic scripts/ assets, but you've also included assets from at least two, but no more than 4 model packs. Up to 50% of the game's scripts may have been altered-stock, or even original scripts.

Game 3: This game was made using FPSC and generic scripts/ assets, but you've included at least five model packs.

Game 4: You've used the FPSC engine, but you've written all (or at least most (70%+) of the scripts yourself. You haven't used any of the stock assets; you (and/ or your team) created all of the 3D models, textures, music, foley work (sound effects), etc. But the FPSC engine is otherwise stock.

Game 5: You've re-worked the FPSC engine using DarkBASIC Professional with the specific intention of altering or removing old features, adding new features, and otherwise making the engine suit the specific needs of your title. You've used mostly (70%+) original scripts, and you haven't used any stock assets whatsoever.

Important Note: Remember, just because FPSC users know certain assets are stock, that doesn't mean others will to. After releasing Pod 9, I was surprised that a lot of people kept asking me how I created all of the models and textures on my own (even though TGC's credits are listed in the manual... go figure). My point is, most people have no idea that these assets are stock, so keep that in mind when you offer your ideas for prices and whatnot.

By the time this thread has reached the end of its life, I'm hoping that we have listed an acceptable price range for each of these five games. We shouldn't be looking for one set price, because different people have different overheads to consider. And that's the goal... any and all thoughts are more than welcome!

So how do we answer this question? How do we price these five different games, and why do we price them as we do? Feel free to bring in questions, comments, or anything else to this conversation. The ultimate goal here is to develop some sort of genuine "pricing key" for FPSC users to take into consideration when attempting to sell their games. Hopefully this thread will be useful to some of you


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Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 00:39 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 00:43
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Quote: "Game 1: This game was made entirely using FPSC, stock assets, and stock scripts. You might have used one (but no more than one) model pack, and you may have added a few new scripts (although more than 90% of the game's scripts came with FPSC)."


$0, give it away for free.... there are too many FPSC stock games floating around the net already, no one is going to pay for this.

Quote: "Game 2: You're using FPSC and generic scripts/ assets, but you've also included assets from at least two, but no more than 4 model packs. Up to 50% of the game's scripts may have been altered-stock, or even original scripts."


$0, you're game will look like all the others and it's looks that count more.

Quote: "Game 3: This game was made using FPSC and generic scripts/ assets, but you've included at least five model packs."


$0, again it has all been seen before.

Quote: "Game 4: You've used the FPSC engine, but you've written all (or at least most (70%+) of the scripts yourself. You haven't used any of the stock assets; you (and/ or your team) created all of the 3D models, textures, music, foley work (sound effects), etc. But the FPSC engine is otherwise stock."


You stand a chance selling this one, but most likely you're never going to finish it with FPSC and get a different engine to finish it. Since FPSC most likely will destroy your creativity or limit you so much that it's not sellable anymore.

Quote: "Game 5: You've re-worked the FPSC engine using DarkBASIC Professional with the specific intention of altering or removing old features, adding new features, and otherwise making the engine suit the specific needs of your title. You've used mostly (70%+) original scripts, and you haven't used any stock assets whatsoever."


This is never going to happen..... you'll be using a different engine by now.

Quote: "I'd like to kick off a constructive conversation about selling (and profiting from) FPSC games. I'm sure this thought has crossed the minds of many FPSC users... and I can tell you from experience that its crossed the minds of most other walks of life in the indie development community as a whole"


As I said before, keep on dreaming, currently FPSC V1 has not earned it's place in the indie game development community at all and if you're that desperate to create a profiting fps game, there are much better options available that have proven their success (and don't cost much more the FPSC).

Aming the game engines, FPSC is a mere toy.... it's very cool, but it is a toy. We all know that, it's just hard to admit it.

By the way, what's with this sudden interest in selling games? Seems like everyone wants to these days, but in all honesty, does anyone really expect to finish a game with a broken game engine? Do you all realize how many customer support you'll end up giving if you release a full game created with FPSC? You're going to spent hours bug traking even after the release of your game. Before you even consider selling a game, make sure you let TGC know you'd like a stable engine, that's the key to selling a game.

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Bloodeath 6 6 6
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:11
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its funny you start this thread, the reason i first invested in fpsc about a year ago was, infact to make a profit, i disagree that its a toy, if used well enough it can make some profit... like Wiz of id's game for example, that could sell if it was stable, no doubt in my mind, FoTF could sell, and even tho i hate to admit it, DarkFacts game could sell, Etc Etc, if you try hard enough you can sell and make a profit, but most of us *including me* are too lazy or just cant preform the skill of 3d modelling, textureing, rigging, and well the creativity of the layout of the level, if someone could do all that, id say they could sell no prob

You'll Know When You See It.

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:16 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 02:11
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Quote: "Definitely true on that one. I'm just curious, did you Commander Josh ever sell any?"


Yes it did, but consider to my other games, it's just peanuts.

Perhaps a quick run down of the Commander Josh versions:

The first Commander Josh 2D created in 1999 (the original one, can still be found on the web and is still selling) has sold over 20,000 copies, that is what I can track down, that doesn't include sub deals the publisher has made. In the first month, the demo alone had over 15,000 downloads.

Commander Josh 3D created in 2002. Even though it was never finished, I still earned over $1000 because of it. What was released, has been downloaded over 5000 times and is still being downloaded.

Commander Josh FPSC version, released beginning of 2005. Published through Manifesto Games and on my website, still negotiating with other publishers. The demo has been downloaded over 1000 times by now and I've made less then $100 from it.

Just a small comparisment, the game released after Commander Josh FPSC, DragonMania, has found 3 publishers by now, 2 online and 1 'traditional' publisher. I've earned over $350 by now from it, but the big sales are still coming. The game is now being released all across Europe in a boxed version, under the name Dragon-X: Gold Quest. The demo has been downloaded a lot more then the Commander Josh FPSC demo.

So compared to my previous projects and the one after it, Commander Josh FPSC isn't earning me much money at all and most publisher I've contacted aren't interested in a fps game at all. They fps market is very saturated.....

Bottom line with Commander Josh FPSC is that all the time and effort put into it, wasn't worth it most likely and in the same time spent on it I could have created a different more succesfull none FPSC related game.

It seems like many gamers have lost interest in the regular fps games and publishers are reluctant to publish them, even the one that has been publishing my games for years, isn't willing to publish it.

Thinking about that, did anyone ever wonder why FPSC is so dirt cheap compared to other game engines? At least the other engines claim they can help you in developing a commercial title, TGC took down that claim for FPSC not long after it's V1.0 release.

FPSC is fun using, but just don't expect to create anything serious with it. It's too unstable, too limited and too common in it's features. Even half of the features a good fps game should really have aren't in FPSC. There are much better free fps games around then what we see on the whole being developed around here and we're talking about selling.

If you really are serious about making money, then find out what the market really wants and don't waste your time around here.

If you're only into creating games for fun then FPSC is an option, but even for that there are better (and more stable and all-round) engines around.

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FredP
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:23
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And from what I have seen of Loc's game it should sell like hotcakes.
A lot of people are hyped about Pointless Assault.Reality Fogotten is working on his game and I am still waiting for a demo/game for Commander Josh 2.
I think Ben is frustrated because he doesn't have a stable version of FPSC.I can assure him and the rest of you he is not alone in that regard...but that may be a discussion for another time and/or place.
If you make a game that is good enough/fun enough to play there is every possibility that you can sell it.
But video games are like every other type of media...a thousand games may get made but only a few are going to be the uber games you have dreamed of.
This is not unique to FPSC.Any type of engine has its followers and operates on the same basic pricipals when it comes to selling games.
I think if we can ever get a stable,working version of FPSC then you are going to see a lot more productivity with this engine.
At least this is my opinion anyways.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:27 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 01:36
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This is one of the biggest problems with the independent game community... everyone instantly thinks games can't or won't sell because they're made with some tool, and most of the people who think this way haven't actually given it a proper try, mostly because they feel it can't be done. I'm not saying it's wrong to say think that... maybe it can't be done, maybe it can... but I'd rather avoid defeatist comments if possible. Instead of saying FPSC games can't turn a profit, explain why they can't.

How many developers have attempted to sell their FPSC games? I don't mean people who slap their game on a website for $49.99 and wait for customers to come to them... I mean genuine attempts at selling their game, and genuine attempts at marketing those games, even if by "geurilla tactics." You can't say something can't be done if it hasn't been proven that it can't be done, and this hasn't been proven impossible... not even remotely.

The actual fact of the matter is, FPSC is a very powerful engine. Yes, there's more powerful engines out there, used by mainstream studios mostly, but I challenge you to point out one single engine of equal or greater power that is as simple to use, and is as easily obtainable for indie developers, as FPSC. As it stands, there isn't one single reason why an FPSC game couldn't turn a profit... you can't have reasons without examples, and examples remain to be made.

Quote: "This is never going to happen..... you'll be using a different engine by now."

Couldn't be farther from the truth. Do you know how many mainstream, commercial games were made with the Unreal engine? A lot... and most (maybe even all) of those games altered the engine, either to some minor degree or in some major re-design. The FPSC engine is no different... you can add new features, change old ones; it's extremely versatile in the hands of someone with a decent level of understanding using DBP.

Again, I ask that if you don't have something constructive to say, ignore this thread. If you've actually spent a substantial amount of time and energy trying to sell a game using FPSC, then I'd like it if you'd share your successes and failures. But broad, generalized opinions that aren't based on any sort of experience whatsoever will never and have never helped anyone.

Why I'm so bothered by what's been said is simple: In 2005, my friends and I started working on simple projects in DBP for local businesses and websites. Everyone from low and high told me we'd never turn a profit doing that, and everyone turned out to be completely, absolutely wrong. "You can't turn a profit using [sic]" is a horrible way to start off a conversation. You could turn a profit with a 3D Gamemaker game if you spent enough time working on it, and that's a simple fact. It's as simple as no one seriously trying it yet, and when someone gives it a go with an honest attempt, a good product, and some business sense, that game will turn a profit.

Edit: I posted this while everyone else was posting and didn't see the posts from Benjamin's post about Commander Josh or beyond. Quite frankly, if you've got this much experience and if you've had this amount of success in selling games, then I'm morbidly shocked that you would say something to the effect of "FPSC games can't turn a profit." You of all people should know that's simply not true. It seems pretty peculiar that your established fanbase wouldn't migrate to the 3D title in your series... but if that's from bugs, why didn't you identify that before you released it, and why didn't you fix those bugs yourself in DBP?


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 01:56
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I seriously can't stand it when threads take a turn in this direction. FPSC has its bugs, but nothing that can't be fixed. I've been using TGC's software for a decent amount of time, most of that time being spent in DBP. Bugs come up, get reported, and over time, they get fixed. I have every possible ounce of respect for TGC and unlimited patience for updates because I've seen countless issues get resolved over time. This engine is remarkably young, and as a result, it has its fair share of bugs, but to blast TGC for not fixing these bugs in such a short period of time is relentlessly unfair to them. They have a monsterous catalog of applications and development tools, and a relatively small crew of developers keeping all of these tools up-to-date. To add stress and time constraints, they need to get a new FPSC AND a new version of DB released to keep up with the release of Vista. They've released a great set of tools, they have fantastic customer support (in all of my experiences with them), and they definitely care about this community. If you're going to continue bashing TGC and their efforts, I'd personally appreciate it if you would do so in a different thread.

Please, if you guys don't mind, I'd like to steer this thread back on-topic. Let's just assume for arguement's sake that the bugs have all been fixed (either by TGC or by the party releasing the FPSC game). Regardless of some people's personal opinions, FPSC is definitely capable of releasing a commercial product, and that's what I'd like this thread to discuss... commercial products and how to price them. If you honestly believe this thread is a waste of time, then don't participate in it. But I do value sincere opinions backed by reasonable explanations and sincere purpose, and that's the sort of posts I'd like to see.


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Benjamin A
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:20
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By the way.... while typing I've just sold another copy of Commander Josh through my website (not kidding), perhaps it's possible after all

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Jrock
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:23
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Congrats!

Practice makes perfect. But if nobody is perfect, why practice?
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:50
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Quote: "What's the defenition of an indie game?"

We've delved into this topic once before, about a year or two ago. The general consensus was that an indie game is made on a minimal budget ($250k or less), by a relatively small team (20 people or less), and is more than likely released on the PC and sold online (not available in stores), although there were countless examples of each of these rules being broken.

Quote: "Good games lack the AI, but overall gameplay makes the game better. Take Rainbow Six 3, for example. Sure, lackluster AI, half-asleep squad mates, but it still sold a decent amount, right? Gameplay makes up for AI in every aspect. A game can look so pretty, but it's gameplay is bleh!"

I know what you mean... I've been a huge fan of the R6 series since it came around in the mid-to-late 1990's, and R6-3 was a serious let-down in a number of ways. But that game, as bugged and glitchy as it was, still sold tons of copies and turned a massive profit, partially because it belonged to that franchise, but also because people thought it was fun, and had great multiplayer.

Quote: "I'm sorry Matt, but 18 months isn't excactly a sort period of time anymore."

18 months is definitely a short period of time. Keep in mind how many people are working on FPSC (not that many). Now take into consideration the amount of products they need to keep up with. DarkBASIC Professional has been out much, much longer than FPSC, and yes, there are still bugs in DBP even years after it was created, but they keep fixing those bugs. Now let's examine user-bases, which inevitably decides which products TGC are going to end up spending the most time on. DBP has some ungodly number of users, and when you compare that to the number of FPSC users, the FPSC user-base almost seems trivial. But they keep working on it, and they keep trying to fix its bugs and make it run better.

On that note, if you just consider FPSC and DBP, if you had a team of equal size, do you think you'd be able to get an engine of equal quality bug-free in two years, all the while keeping up with bugs and other issues in a monsterous programming language that has tens of thousands of users anxiously waiting for updates? That's why I get upset when people diss TGC... they definitely have their hands full, and Lee does a lot more work in any given day than I would be capable of doing.

Quote: "But compared to other fps games all of the FPSC created levels and games I've seen so far lack big time. FPSC itself limits creativity. FPSC has features the original doom & quake had, that's not bad, but it's a bit outdated."

But again, that's why it's so useful to have the engine's source available to us. Take a look at Quake III's engine. It's been around since 1999, and even today, games are still being made using it (the "Call of Duty" series (up to COD 2 I think) and John Romero's upcoming "Severity" come to mind). Unreal has existed even longer (1997 or 1998 I think), and it is also still being used today. But they can't get away with using the stock engine, so they do what most developers do... they take the engine apart, repairing bugs and changing elements/ features until they end up with a product that applies to the game they're using. That's why TGC released the source to the community... no one knows what your game needs more than you do.

In terms of limiting creativity, I also need to disagree. The engine is extremely open-ended. You can import original assets and scripts, you can alter the engine's source... these are the exact same features you'd find in any other commercial engine. The only limitations that FPSC puts on your creations are the ones presented by DX9 (and the bugs which we've already talked about), and while those limitations might keep you from making some stunningly beautiful game like Resistance: Fall of Man, they definitely keep the door open for you to improve the games you create. There's no engine in the world that doesn't require this same amount of developer-input to create a stellar commercial title, but unlike other engines, FPSC is based on the easier-to-use (and still extremely powerful) DBP language. And unlike most other engines, FPSC comes with stock media so you can learn how to use it without supplying tons of new assets to test concepts and whatnot.

Okay, I promise, I'll do my very best to not sound like a TGC commercial from this point forward

Let's get back to the brass tacs: Pricing an FPSC game. Let's try to put the idea of an FPSC game not being commercially viable behind us, because I honestly believe that eventually, that opinion will be proven fruitless, and this thread isn't about commercial viability, it's about pricing titles. Let's just assume the following:

(a) FPSC's engine is bug-free, either by TGC fixing it or by a user or team of users fixing it
(b) The game is going to sell well, or at least moderately well, if the price range we define in this thread doesn't contradict that from happening. Let's say for the sake of arguement that the designers achieved an optimal level of ingenuity with their title.
(c) The game is going to reach its target audience, regardless of the price range; More than enough people will know the game exists and will be interested in learning more about it.

These are the most basic parameters I could think up, but from this I think we should be able to come up with an actual price range. If there's other factors, what are they? Again, some of you will think these assumptions are pointless to make... that's been illustrated more than enough so far in this thread. At this point, I ask that anyone who participates tries to stay on subject (and thank you Benjamin for coming back onto the topic more). At the end of this thread, I seriously hope to have price ranges listed for each of these five games, and I know for a fact that at some point in the near future, these price points will definitely help someone


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 03:00 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 03:07
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Quote: "If you say we dont give tgc enough credit/time to fix fpsc in 18 months, then what can you say about vista version fpsc being pushed out by april?
I mean think about it, if they can code a whole new engine, then why cant they just come back to the old one and atleast make this stable before they think about a new version,"

I'm trying really hard to keep this thread on-topic. At some point, someone is going to find this thread useful. This is why I was never made a mod (and why I will never be a mod, either)... I would have deleted all of the posts that don't stay on topic, lol .

As I've already said, TGC needs to release a new engine because if they didn't, you (and thousands of others) would be complaining about how dated their software is. They need to keep up with emerging trends, and there isn't a single successful company in the world that isn't forced to do that. With the coming of Vista, tons of developers are going to be looking for new tools to let them develop games on that platform, and lots of them will be coming to TGC and relying on them to provide said tools. It's common sense for them to spend time, money, and effort on creating DX10-based versions of their existing software, so that developers can maximize the potential of Vista's new dev tools and DX10's added horsepower. When they have time, they'll keep working on the current FPSC. But if they ignored Vista, they'd go out of business... and I'm pretty surprised that so many people are failing to recognize that.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 03:09 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 03:10
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Edit:
Quote: "again as ive said bad buisness practice"

What exactly do you know about business practices? Do you have any idea how much work goes into what the guys at TGC produce? I'll give you a hint... you couldn't do it, not on your own at least. It's not as easy as you think it is... to say they have bad business practices because they can't simply whip up a few new programmers shows that you have no respect for the amount of work that goes into making games, let alone the tools that make those games work.

Quote: "CMON MAN!!! think about it How Dated the software is, DX10 has been around for how long?"

I'd rather think about how people reacted to DBC as it started getting dated. Do a search sometime and see how many complained about DBC not having updates for newer versions of DX.

Again... if you don't have something useful to say about this topic, then do everyone a favor and don't post here. If you dislike TGC's software so much, I'd love to know why you visit the forums here


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FredP
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 03:14 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 03:29
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We have all discussed the flaws in FPSC.etc.
Now let's say...just to get this discussion kind of back on topic...that FPSC worked just fine and dandy.
How would I go about selling my game if I indeed wanted to and what would I charge for it?
The second question might be easier to answer...
Probably $9.95 or $10 for the main project I am working on now...maybe $20 depeinding on how big it was,how much more time energy it takes to finish it and the quality of the project when it is finished.
As for the first question I would put my game up for sale on my site and I would post a link to the game and all of the info I could about anywhere I could think of on the internet.

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FredP
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 03:24
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I know this is a double post but I would like to point out that everybody has stated their opinions on FPSC so now we can keep this on topic and show Matt some courtesy.
@Matt,
I didn't intend to get off topic or run away with the thread or let anybody else do the same.I just figured everybody could get it out of their system and go on.My apologies.
@Everybody,
Now I am going to go through and delete any irrelevant posts (including mine).
There is a similar thread in which you can post your opinions,observations,etc. about FPSC.

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xplosys
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 04:39
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Interesting topic, but I just don't get or see the need for separating the games the way you have. If I were to build a game for sale, it would use mainly custom media all around, but only because I don't care about sci-fi or WW2 games. Most people only build those two kind of games with this engine because that's what it comes with. The media included is very limited and there is very little of it to consider making a whole game without everything looking the same. I don't think you can build a game using only stock media, nevermind consider selling it.

By the same token, using all of the model packs would be severly limiting yourself to the game you could build. Any game on the market today has much more and diverse media, and again, I would not consider making or selling a game with only TGC supplied media. I can't even think up a game staory that would use just that media.

That pretty much leaves pricing to the quaility of the game you make. I am one of the nuts who thinks that FPSC can produce a great, quality title if it's done by a talented team. To think that one person, reguardless of age, experience, or time is going to create an A title is just rediculous. It takes large teams of very talented people working full time for years to produce a game. FPSC helps a lot with its wysiwyg editor, but that doesn't make up for a team of pros.

Without the name, brand recognition and resources of the game companies, you won't be able to get the exposure and price that others get, but to just make a blanket statement that FPSC games will never sell for more than 10.00 is crazy.

My bottom line. It's not the best, most sophisticated bug free perfect program out there, but it's pretty amazing in what you can add to it, and make it do if you want to. What FPSC games will sell for, when made by talented teams with imagination, will be limited by our means to sell, and not our ability to create.

Just a word about Ben's game: In my humble opinion, Commander Josh is not selling because it is a childish, boring game in which the scenery never changes and there is no gameplay, and not beacuse it is made with FPSC. To base any kind of opinion of FPSC against this game is to do FPSC a great injustice. In the right hands, it is capable of so much more.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 04:54 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 04:59
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Thank you very much Fred for steering this thread back on topic. I owe you... well, I lost count of what I owe you so far, hehe.

Which game on our scale do you think your game would be categorized as (on that list of games 1-5)? And on that note, does anyone disagree with my thinking that list of the five game generalizations is fair, or should there be other options on there as well?

I think that if the game fits into the category of this thread's "game 4" or "game 5," or maybe even "game 3" if the gameplay, story, other design points are of an excellent quality, then $9.95 is probably just right. But I think it definitely has a lot to do with which of those games (on the scale I mean) the game fits into. Could a "level 5 game" get away with selling the game for $19? $29? Possibly more? Why or why not?

Pricing independent games is rather difficult. If you set the price too high, people will turn away from it. It's next to impossible to sell an independent game online, from a website via download, for $49.99. But if you set the price too low, it sends a message to consumers that your product is of poor quality and isn't worth their hard-earned money. So it's a pretty difficult balancing act -- matching the quality of your game with a price that's reasonable, can turn a profit, and doesn't turn your customers away can usually be a daunting task. So by these standards, I think $9.95 is a great pricepoint. But it definitely depends on the quality of the game... are you selling yourself short? Could your game earn you more money?

I agree with Benjamin about Game 1... it should be freeware. There's a general rule of thumb in just about every aspect of life: the more you put into [something], the more you get out of [something]. Beyond that however, I'm not entirely sure if I can agree. Game 2 could turn a profit, albeit (in my opinion) a small one. Game 3 could definitely turn a profit if it were designed thoroughly enough.

A lot of us seem to forget that the general public has no idea of what's stock and what isn't. There's definitely a flux of FPSC games floating around on the net, but most of those have been released with minimal marketing knowledge or effort, and so they don't typically reach enormous markets. And as game developers, we have a keen eye for details that most consumers tend to ignore. But it's pretty difficult to look inward on ourselves, to be self-critical or to uniquely view the world from another person's perspective, and that tends to be our universal Achille's heel. But anyway, to get back on track and away from philosophy for a while, we should all take that into consideration while we try to come up with a reasonable and comprehensive list of prices... in the words of David S. Platt (and this is probably my favorite quote regarding game development), "your user is not you."

(and again, I definitely value Benjamin's valid opinion and hopefully others will share their opinions and experiences as well)

Quote: "matt knows exactly how to push my buttons i guess"

No worries... I tend to get that a lot, lol. In Geek Culture I'm usually referred to as too forward with my opinions, too much of a Radiohead fan, and too in love with Sony for my own good

to xplosys: In your opinion, how should we change this scale, or are you saying the scale shouldn't apply? I'd love to get that scale to more accurately reflect the types of games people hope to sell.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Slayer Simon
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 05:21
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Hmmm...

Only one thing to say here. Some of you are on the right track but some of you are completely... wrong.

You see? It doesn't matter what type of engine you use, or what type of game you made. It doesn't even matter if you game is a 320X240 pixel zelda game with cheesy animations. If your game is fun to play, and users see a great example of fun and creativity on their screen, the game will sell. The creator of this game might even make alot of money. There are many examples of low graphics games that despite the low quality, are extremely fun to play. On the other hand, there are highly anticipated uber-graphics games from huge developers that turn out to be not all they were cracked up to be.

Do you want to make a game that people will like? Do you want people to play your game for hours? Do you want people to tell all their friends what a great game this is and how addictively fun it can be?
All you need my friends, is creativity. If you can use that creativity and focus it on a central point in that endless sea of possibilities, you will succeed. And don't let negatively oriented sticks-in-the-mud stop you.

PS, i'm not pointing fingers.
PPS, well maybe I am.
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xplosys
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 05:27
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Although I can see peoples games falling into these categories, I don't think it will necessarily factor into price. Frankly, I don't see how you could even make a game using only TGC content, at least not a game for sale, and for me that leaves out your first three categories.

Aside from the current issues with FPSC, which is not a part of the conversation, the software can and will make quality games when people colaborate and dedicate themselves to make it work. I belie the price they get will be limited by their ability to market the game, and not the engine it's made with or which model pack they used.

No one is going to market their game as a "Made with FPSCreator" game, "using 70% custom media" on the box or ad. It's going to have the best (enhanced) in-game screen shots and a super-duper, exciting write-up attached, and that's what's going to sell it, just like every other game out there.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

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FredP
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 05:54
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Matt,
I just got to thinking...and I am sure that this has been mentioned before...that nobody outside of the FPSC/TGC community will know if a game has custom media and whatnot...so maybe that scale is not going to work.
Gameplay is the most important feature of any game.
I will use Pac-Man (the original arcade game) for an example.
There were no really amazing graphics,no save/load,fog,dazzling special effects or anything like that.But Pac-Man has become one of the most played (and ripped off) games ever.
Why?It was fun to play.
I have had various discussions with people over this.They say you need good graphics and such.
I say you need good/great gameplay and everything else is second.
You want to make your game fun to play and attempt to immerse the player in the environment.
How do you know the game you are developing is fun?Well,I am making what games I want to play.
That's the reason I got back into game developing in the first place.
I figured instead of spending only God knows how much money renting/buying games I would make my own.
If I have fun playing my game and if nobody buys a single copy or even plays it but me and least it will be worth it to me.
So that's my latest opinion on selling your games.If you make them so you like playing them chances are others will as well.

http://www.wembley1967.com
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Candle_
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There is money making the software that makes the games not the other way around.
Bu you need to spend a lot of money for media then you look at how much you just spent on that and then come up with the cost of the game and your going to find out you will have to sell a lot of games. ..


MY FPSC FILES
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Van B
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At the end of the day, FPSC is at the lower end of the food chain, and probably always will be. But where else could it possibly be? - really if you sell any copies of your FPSC game your doing wonders, because selling a FPS that nobody ever heard of online is something most people couldn't do, wouldn't even attempt it.

Want to see a screenshot from an indi game that has a good chance of making money?

Platypus
http://www.deprice.com/images/platypus_sb1.jpg

It looks interesting, the ships and stuff are made from play-do, and it probably plays like a classic sideways scroller, like those old SNES shooters. Those visuals will appeal to everyone from your little sister, to your Grandad - hell it looks like a cross between a BBC kiddies program and a Beatles video. From this 1 screenshot you can see the potential, and so did the publisher, but my point is that if you can't make a big-ass hook like that screenshot you might as well try a different angle.
If you can't convey some personality through your game, some hint that your one of the good guys, then nobody will pay money for your game. People make assumptions constantly, and sadly the assumptions made about hobbyist and independent developers based on their FPSC games are not favorable. Games like Alien Hominid and Platypus both look and play nicely, unique for casual gamers, the sort of people who would pay for games that they like. Casual gamers are the only gamers who could make you some money, so appeal to them to give yourself the best chance.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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filya
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 16:09
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The point is, there are too many FPS games already out there and being published everyday. Just go to a small shop and check out the games they sell for $5-$10. They have good graphics, good gameplay, they run very comfortably on a mediocre PC and they have long and lots of levels. But I haven't ever bought more than 2-3 of them in my life.

When I compare those games to even a game like FOTF or DF, I feel I would rather pay the $5 for them then for these (no offence). It's only because I know how much effort has gone into DF or FOTF will I think about encouraging a fellow developer, but public don't know that and don't care what engine is the game made on.

This is why I state that I wouldn't think about pricing even a well made FPSC game anything over $10. It's not the input that counts...it's ultimately the output!

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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Bloodeath 6 6 6
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Alright, i agree with van b, its not about the engine, its about your creativity, altho fpsc is a great game maker, it falls short in some areas. like stablity, its not a matter of how proffesional it looks, or the graphics, its on how fun it is to play, if your game is fun to play then it doesnt matter how it looks, so the only factor i can say about selling your games is that it has to be a new idea, innovative and just unique

You'll Know When You See It.

Death has no end
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Matt Rock
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I think a few of you are missing the point about creativity, and more still are missing the point that you're not limited, in any way, by FPSC. Again, I need to point out that you'll only get out of something what you put into it in the first place.

One of the main reasons why people buy independent games is because we tend to break away from the molds of the mainstream industry. You'll see a set pattern amongst the successful indie games out there... they break patterns, break molds. Alien Hominid and DEFCON: These two games were independent, and both of them sold enough units to compete [in sales] with, and even beat out in many instances, the majority of mainstream games out there. Why? How did they pull this off?

Creativity. They were genuinely unique games with captivating gameplay. Defcon's visuals weren't spectacular, not by a long shot, but the game was fun enough for hundreds of thousands of people to purchase. And if you think about it, Defcon wasn't really that original... there was a game on the Amiga that was very, very similar (I think it was simply called "Nuclear War" or something to that effect). But it was fun, and that is at the heart of every game's ultimate success or failure.

FPSC is designed for typical shooter games. But who says the first-person perspective *MUST* be applied *ONLY* to shooting? Did you guys know that when American McGee made the game "Alice," which could be defined as an incredibly creative game, he used the Quake 3 engine? And with the Unreal engine (also designed for FPS games), tons of games were released that weren't shooters (and some didn't even employ killing), including (but not limited to) the long series of Harry Potter games.

The developers of these games did what the developers of most games did: they modified their toolset. FPSC does not limit you in any way, shape or form, and that's a simple fact. The only thing that limits you is you. If you're unhappy with what FPSC provides you with, then the resolution is pretty simple: learn DBP, modify the engine to your liking, and make the game you want. FPSC is designed like every other FPS engine in the world... ever, in the history of games. There has never once been a successful engine that hasn't been modified by developers.

I'm a huge proponent for modifying the FPSC engine because I know for a fact that it can be done, and it isn't remarkably difficult to do, either (so long as you know a bit about DBP). Some people would say "but why use FPSC if you're going to modify the engine like that?" If you're wondering the same thing, then you've obviously never spent any great deal of time writing source code. The engine alone for FPSC has well over 26,000 lines of code. It has tons of subroutines and functions, and took Lee a great deal of time and massive amounts of work to create. The FPSC engine allows you to avoid doing large amounts of that work... you can edit the source, add around 5k to 20k lines of your own code, and be done with it. Oh, and you don't have to mess around with scaling and mapping objects and markers... that's what the editor is for. To put it simply, you're completely and utterly open to do whatever you want with the FPSC engine, and you won't get much more than that out of any engine, including Quake or Unreal.

When I first purchased FPSC, I was planning to use it as a "chalkboard" for game ideas, games we were developing through DBP. But when I took Fred's suggestion and downloaded the demo, I almost immediately saw vast, untapped potential in this engine. I'm sure a few others saw much of the same as well. It made me change my plans (and MISoft's production schedule), and now we're changing gears entirely and committing to an FPS game that uses this engine. And if I do my job right, then this game is going to sell, and sell a lot. From a technical standpoint, we're modding the engine (major overhaul), using almost entirely original assets (some of which are being made right now as I write this post, and so far, they're eye-candy), bringing in tons of scripts, and doing our lightmapping in Gile[s] (or at least that's the plan right now), with Chris Franklin making most of our visual effects. But none of that matters even remotely to the customers who are going to buy this game... it has a fantastic story and genuinely unique gameplay, and those will be its selling points. It's a shooter, and you'll be armed with weaponry, but it won't even remotely remind you of any other FPS game, and when it's done, anyone and everyone will be invited to take that challenge and name a single game that's like it. Quite frankly, if that game doesn't sell, I'll be pretty amazed. And yes, I'll post screens and stuff when we reach that stage, and you can all start creating your guesses and assumptions then . Anyone whose known me for any period of time knows that I'm pretty secretive with big projects, so this is the most you'll be getting out of me about it (before anyone asks, lol).

Anyway, back on topic again... if the game is unique, has fun gameplay, and a captivating story, then it doesn't need anything else. This has been proven time and time again. I could definitely see a game made with FPSC at its core selling for $29.99, or maybe even more.

About the list of games, I totally agree with you guys... but we should definitely try to categorize these games somehow, because people will have different styles of games with various levels of input, and pricing those games is what I'm hoping to inevitably achieve here; I'd like to provide the people reading this thread with a thought out guide to pricing the games they make using FPSC. But maybe I'm looking at it entirely wrong, I dunno. But I'd be satisfied if we came away from this with a list of "do's and don't's." Maybe some extreme limits or something, like "don't try selling your game, regardless of its content, for more than (n) or less than (x).


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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FredP
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 01:34
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Okay.I have went through for for what I hope is the last
time and removed any threads that don't directly have anything to do with the topic.
Please don't post if you have nothing to say about the topic at hand and only post about the topic at hand.
I really don't want to have to do this again.

http://www.wembley1967.com
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Jrock
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 03:13
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Quote: "This has been proven time and time again. I could definitely see a game made with FPSC at its core selling for $29.99, or maybe even more."


Not so sure about $30, $10 is a more realistic price. Think about it, unless the game has some sort of creative element that completely seperates it from the competition. I would seriously consider buying a product for $30 if I could just buy Halo or something for the same price or less.

Practice makes perfect. But if nobody is perfect, why practice?
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 04:38
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Quote: "
How much can I/ should I sell my game for?
How should I gauge the game's cost?
What do people look for in a game when out shopping, and which of those qualities does my game have?
"

A) Free, or $5 to $10
B) Make it affordable.
C) All walks of life buy games, thus they want all sorts of different things from games. (Variety)

Don't forget to visit Conjured Entertainment
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Slayer_2
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 05:16 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2007 05:17
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Hello prepare for a rant,
OK I have to say its unfair to say you can't make a good game with over 75% TGC media. take my game Elite OPS its mostly TGC media but even I find it fun (and occasionally get a little PO because I lose my own game to stock AI). You have to remember people who have never even heard of FPSC will not know stock, TGC or freebies media from you own stuff. In fact I think people would like TGC media much more than anything anybody could produce by themselves. The only time I would make my own media is when it is necessary for the game or there is nothing like what I want. With signs four or Magic FPS plus five of the model packs you can make a decent 3-5 star game (out of 5 stars duh). When we release our demo in 3 weeks I will post how many downloads I get within a month (providing this thread isn't locked). Just say someone like Benjamin A downloads my demo They will probably think "oh this is just a mediocre (or crap) FPSC demo" whereas someone else will probably think "oh this is a fun (or OK) free demo". No offense or anything to Benjamin A or Van B but I feel your look on FPSC is much to harsh. You are the only two people I have ever seen who think the FPSC basically stinks. We are going to sell our game online (and we have gotten a deal with the local EB games) for $15 (all expenses included). I think I your making a game like ours (9 weapons, medium AI, over 19 levels, some turrets and trains, at least 25% custom media, decent storyline, allies, OK lighting and graphics and some imagination) $15 sounds fair to me. I'm going to wait until I get some feedback on my good demo (I do have a crappy demo mostly for fun up right now 21 downloads) before I say more. Anyhow I'm going to wrap up my rant, happy game making everyone and no hard feelings OK?
Slayer_2

EOT Check it out
http://eliteops.piczo.com
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Van B
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 10:18
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I don't think FPSC stinks, in fact I think it's great fun, and teaches people who are willing to experiment a great deal about game design.

What I'm saying is it's not the most profitable route for indi developers, it's really a modern day SEUCK (Shoot Em Up Construction Kit) - which I absolutely loved as a kid, and made some cool games with it. Would I try selling any of those games for £10? - no way, even though there were far worse commercial games for that. I'd like nothing more that to see someone do well with a FPSC commercial project.

All we keep hearing is 'what if's' and stuff about projects that are still early WIP - there's no proof to show that FPSC can make it's users money, and it's not bleeding designed for that. When someone does as well as the StarWraith creator, then it might be of note, because that guy, one of the most succesfull users, just makes enough money to keep it worthwhile. The indi money is with casual gaming, and not FPS games - that's the reality. If TGC had made 'freakin-monotonous-bejeweled-clone-creator', then I could understand the assumptions being made about selling. FPSC was designed to let people create their own FPS game, nobody promised anyone a living through it, so be realistic when you start thinking about this stuff, it's easy to get a bit lofty, but try and make your goal getting exposure, feedback, kudos - not a few measly quid so 4 people can play your game. Freeware games can be played by tens of thousands, hell my first game has been downloaded over 20,000 times from this site alone - I'd much rather have 20,000+ downloads than 15 purchases, which is really a realistic figure for this stuff.

I think we should drag Drew Cameron in here, creator of Dumbo and Cool, and he can tell us all how easy it is to sell an indi game, he's bald already, and he's only 18.

What was the last indi FPS you bought?

What's that?, you've never bought one. Hmmm...


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 10:24
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I'm almost afraid to post for fear that it'll not be long enough for this thread (Matt Rock Am typin' machine).

To stay of topic....
I have to say that, while this thread is a good idea, the hypothetical games are a little limited. I myself usually make a fair bit of custom media yet i tend not to edit scripts unless i want a certain event to take place. Even so, here is how i would price these theoritical games:

Quote: "Game 1: This game was made entirely using FPSC, stock assets, and stock scripts. You might have used one (but no more than one) model pack, and you may have added a few new scripts (although more than 90% of the game's scripts came with FPSC)."

£0. Who do you sell games to, the majority of your customers would be FPSC users and to see something that they could have in a couple of hours is not worth the money.

Quote: "Game 2: You're using FPSC and generic scripts/ assets, but you've also included assets from at least two, but no more than 4 model packs. Up to 50% of the game's scripts may have been altered-stock, or even original scripts."

Despite what people will say, i still believe, with good gameplay and a well-written story, you could still sell this game. The model packs have cost money haven't they? So why not capitalise on the people who don't have these packs.
Ideal Price: £5-10 Suspected Price: £5

You may wonder what why i just did that then. But, so as not to bore people and waste space, i've made my rant togglable.


Moving on...
Quote: "Game 3: This game was made using FPSC and generic scripts/ assets, but you've included at least five model packs."

Again, this game could sell (realistically) for a maximum of £10

Quote: "Game 4: You've used the FPSC engine, but you've written all (or at least most (70%+) of the scripts yourself. You haven't used any of the stock assets; you (and/ or your team) created all of the 3D models, textures, music, foley work (sound effects), etc. But the FPSC engine is otherwise stock."

This is the one i most closely associate my own work to. Not quite as extreme, but i make custom models quite a bit as well as textures and sound effects. I would say that this game could sell for a maximum of £20, with the less extreme version (like me) selling for £15

Quote: "Game 5: You've re-worked the FPSC engine using DarkBASIC Professional with the specific intention of altering or removing old features, adding new features, and otherwise making the engine suit the specific needs of your title. You've used mostly (70%+) original scripts, and you haven't used any stock assets whatsoever."

This is unlikely to happen but if you really have gone to the trouble of implimenting features such as vehicles then i see reason why you would not sell your game for £40 (more than FPSC, but rightfully so because your new hybird engine is more competant at making games.

I needed to get that little rant off my chest...

Can we try and stay on topic; this is discussion about selling games, not FPSCs feature.

AE

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 10:46 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2007 11:07
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Quote: "No offense or anything to Benjamin A or Van B but I feel your look on FPSC is much to harsh. You are the only two people I have ever seen who think the FPSC basically stinks. "


I never said either that FPSC stinks, it's good for what it has been designed for, creating amateur/hobby games. I simply don't believe FPSC as is will allow you to create games that are truly marketable. FPSC lack quality to be truly stunning and the other main factor is the market, when it comes to fps games in the indie market, they're not cool anymore. Indie fps games just aren't succesful anymore. The player is asking for different types of games.

Quote: "Anyway, back on topic again... if the game is unique, has fun gameplay, and a captivating story, then it doesn't need anything else. This has been proven time and time again. I could definitely see a game made with FPSC at its core selling for $29.99, or maybe even more."


You're correct in your statement, but your reasoning doesn't count for indie fps games at all. While your statement is true you also have to be honest and tell us what games this has proven right for..... and you'll sure see indie FPS games are EXCLUDED from this statement. There are enough charts that show you what indie games have been succesfull and on none of those lists there's a fps game at all. If you want to be succesfull in the indie games market you really need to choose a different genre. Some of you really should start looking at the facts and do some research on succesfull indie games!

Quote: "What was the last indi FPS you bought?

What's that?, you've never bought one. Hmmm..."


To add on to it, what's the last succesfull indie fps game you even came across? FPS games are out, casual games are in, do some research and you'll find out what you should be really focussing upon if you want to make some real money.

I'm sure some of you will sell a few copies of your game.... you've put lot's of effort into it and made a little money. If you would have devoted your time and skills to creating a good casual game instead, you have the potential to make much more money. To make money you need to know what the player desires and the market clearly shows he's not desiring fps games anymore.

Look at it this way.... selling fps games or casual games is the difference between being able to buy a few new modeling packs for FPSC or buying yourself a new computer with X10 and all of the model packs.

That is the truth.... it's your choice. If you settle for some model packs, fine, create something with FPSC. I rather settle for the casual games and get myself a new pc. (Just as a side note, if I don't win the nVidia competition, I'll still be able to buy a new pc financed by my casual games, if I don't spent it something else first.)

Selling Commander Josh Book 1 (fpsc game) has given me the finances to buy some FPSC model packs. Selling DragonMania (casual game) has earned me enough money to buy a new telescope, a Maksutov-Cassagrain model incase some of you are into amateur stargazing as I am. Both games are publisher by a publisher, both games are good (contrary to what some around here may claim, but they haven't even found a publisher for their FPSC games at all, or even managed to create a full game, so come back and bash Commander Josh when you've got a contract with a publisher for your FPSC game and have shown me how succesful your game is), but one of them just isn't hot anymore. It's the wrong genre.

It's basically what you want, but I rather use my skills, energy, time and effort for a game that people will buy, instead of being stubborn enough to create what I want with FPSC, that no one will pay for. People don't want to pay for fps games anymore, they choose to spent their money on casual games instead. So get where the money is, that's much more rewarding.

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 12:56
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I wouldn't go over $5-10 on any game made with FPSC or DBP (first release). The reason being the ability to 100% make sure you can support the product. In the end of the day we don't have enough access to get around some bugs in FPSC or even DBP for that matter and we have to wait and wait for them to fix these. Meanwhile you have to stall your customers. Now if we had access to the FPSC's editor source it would be different. It would be alot easier to modify the export options to suit your custom game engine. Alot of the FPSC bugs could be fixed from the editor itself.

Now if I sold alot of copies at the lower price and had no complaints about compatibility, I would make a v2 using the exact same version of FPSC/ DBP combo (no upgrades to either since last version that may cause conflicts unless absolutely necessary) and sell it for $15-20.

Not saying if you put a ton of time into the game it wouldn't be cool. I'm just scared to sell something I am not totally confident I have most of the control over fixing.

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Slayer_2
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 20:00 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2007 20:04
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@ Van B and Benjamin A. OK I have bought one indie game Tribal Trouble http://tribaltrouble.com/ that's one of my two games and it's a fun, simple and overall great game. Out of all my games I play it the most. I run a Linux computer so its rare for me to get any new games I have only two "professional" games UT2004 and Quake 4. I just don't get why you two are so pessimistic about selling FPSC games?

@ Avenging Eagle. Wow are noobs really asking for your pack to be free? well I'm hoping it gets resold by TGC as a model pack Good luck with your pack man.

@ Everyone. Wrapping this rant up I just want to say If its a fun game overall you will get some money. I am not really selling my game for the money, I am selling I because its fun to use FPSC and just mess around with it. I agree that its pretty foolish to expect an FPSC game to make an income for you and I am sorry if anybody had dreams of that but its not really plausible. Good luck, no hard feelings and happy game making
Slayer_2
P.S. Saying FPS games are going out of style well true is harsh I for one can't stand RPG's or TPS's, I'm a FPS and RTS fan.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 24th Feb 2007 02:14
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Quote: "I'm almost afraid to post for fear that it'll not be long enough for this thread (Matt Rock Am typin' machine)."

The scary part is, I'm almost finished with a text adventure game... all reading, and almost entirely written by me. Break out the goggles folks, this is gonna be a long one! Let's just say it beats out FPSC's engine in the "lines of code" department .

Anyway, back on subject. One thing we should take into consideration is overhead costs. FPSC games tend to be pretty large, and to distribute those from your own website would require quite a large amount of bandwidth. How could we figure out a generalized, typical cost for hosting a large game. Let's say, for arguement's sake, it's 1 GB. These costs would need to be figured into the overall cost of the product as well. On that note, what other costs should we consider?


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Benjamin A
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Posted: 24th Feb 2007 16:58
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Quote: "Let's say, for arguement's sake, it's 1 GB. These costs would need to be figured into the overall cost of the product as well"
.

Seeing that, just brought this quote from C/NET to mind: Even in a day and age when hard drives are cheap and RAM is plentiful, there's no excuse for bloatware.

Anyway with 1GB of size, you're looking at $5-$10 that gives you 1000Gb-3000Gb monthly bandwith. Other cost to be considered are a domain, you're going to need a proper domain to ensure customers being able to find you, that will cost you another $6-$10 in a months. For the website you may have to pay startup fees, which are at least $10.

Basically one year website hosting will cost you $150 in a year.

Other cost to be considered.... piracy protection. You can do without if you want to or just use FPSPack (but then you for now still have the save problems). I've looked into DRM software with my publisher, but it doesn't work with FPSC. There may be stuff out there that does work, but it is expensive ($500 or much more), so the consideration is if that's worth it at all. Let's asume fpspack is fixed, so you're looking at $20.

Next thing you need is a proper installer, but you can get those for free (install creator at [href=http://www.clickteam.com ]www.clickteam.com [/href]for example )

Other costs to be consided..... how are you going receive payments? Paypal and such are free and will basically take a chuck of the selling price (paypal takes 1.9% - 2.9% of the total price + $0.30 ). Not an upfront cost, but to be considered in the pricing. If you want systems that are more pro and accessable to everyone (like direct credit card payments) you're going to pay $$$.

Next thing you're looking at is promotion. You can submit for free to www.download.com (c/net & zd/net), but they may reject you, they reject a lot of games. You can also go to Tucows and such, but if you really want to be excepted there you need to pay. If you don't pay they're basically going to reject you, even if you comply to all of the rules. You're looking at at least $50-$65 for one game and S10 per month to ensure your game will stay on the listing.

If you want to be succesful, your game needs to be promoted! Also to be considered is search engine submission, another $10 per month.

Or you can do it all in one go, with services like this: http://www.softwaresubmit.net/details.htm This will cost you $190.

That's about it, there's more but I'll leave it at this, others can add.

All in all you're looking at an investment of at least $480 for one game, but expect it to be more or do all the work yourself (but then you end up paying even more).

You're sure that you still want to sell your game?

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Locrian
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Posted: 24th Feb 2007 17:34 Edited at: 24th Feb 2007 17:39
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Quote: "Basically one year website hosting will cost you $150 in a year."


71$ for a year with unlimited subs, lots of space, and the domain name. Just re-upped mine 1/27/07.

Quote: "Other cost to be considered.... piracy protection. You can do without if you want to or just use FPSPack (but then you for now still have the save problems). I've looked into DRM software with my publisher, but it doesn't work with FPSC. There may be stuff out there that does work, but it is expensive ($500 or much more), so the consideration is if that's worth it at all. Let's asume fpspack is fixed, so you're looking at $20."


Vishnu actually works, and I'm not just saying that because I'm involved in the project, but FPS Pack never actually protected anything. It was trash from the beggining, and thats no offence to Rastaman, but the product never protected anything. Vishnu has delt with the save load problem, along with providing some actual security and cost $10.95.

I'm not even going to try and verify anything else your saying. It's not worth the time. I don't dwell on what "can't be done" but yet "how can I do this". I just think you have this habbit of exagerating things bro, and I wish you'd get off this bandwagon.

@To stay on topic,
I think $10 for SinninSoul will be a reasonalble price for the game only version. My hopes are to make something on the media version where people can use anything I've made for the game(which will be almost everything) for $20. I should be able to sell that easy considering TGC packs are 20$ and no one pack with be near as complete as ours(S4 and myself) having mass objects, new guns, all new characters, music, and custom scripts.
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KeithC
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Posted: 24th Feb 2007 18:17
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Don't forget that you'll be cutting out all dial-up users with the excessive size of an FPSC game (even a small one). Additionally, there will be a number of high-speed users who won't want to reach their daily limit by downloading a HUGE demo. People who have cable internet, and therefore have no daily limit, may not want to bother with such a large file either.

My point is, is that the huge file size that FPSC produces will be a hindrance right off the bat. Until they figure out how to cut down on this drastically, you'll see many sales slip away.

-Keith



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Benjamin A
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Posted: 24th Feb 2007 19:34 Edited at: 24th Feb 2007 19:37
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Quote: "I'm not even going to try and verify anything else your saying. It's not worth the time. I don't dwell on what "can't be done" but yet "how can I do this". I just think you have this habbit of exagerating things bro, and I wish you'd get off this bandwagon."


I'm sorry for trying to be helpful. I'm not excaggerating but I'm just trying to show what may be needed if you really want to sell your game. I know all of you have huge experiences on how to market your games, so once again, sorry for being trying to be helpful.

I'm not even saying it can't be done, but you need to be realistic about things and face some of the facts, otherwise you're just in for a huge dissappointment.

Anyway I wish you and S4 good luck with marketing the game.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 25th Feb 2007 05:09
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You're paying monthly for your domain? I got mine for about $5 a year through aplus.net. They've actually got a pretty decent service, I almost went with go daddy for the domain but found aplus and saved a few dollars.

I definitely think everyone should make their own websites. We came very close to hiring someone to make MINet [the MISoft site]. It was either (A) dish out a percentage of our net to a webmaster, or (B) pay someone up front to do it. Luckily I took a few hours out of my busy schedule to make the site myself... saved us a bunch of money in the end of it all. I'm also a big proponent for self-publishing, but that's for another thread

As for piracy, I look at it as having two options: pay for anti-piracy software, or do it yourself in PHP. I don't know PHP yet, but I'm going to spend the summer learning it. Until then, we'll probably use someone's service, but I'm not sure who I should look into for that yet.


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Locrian
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Posted: 25th Feb 2007 07:05
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Matt we were talking about game media piracy. Not for web sites. And Ben's moved on now to another engine.
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chris 123 smoothie
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Posted: 25th Feb 2007 14:26 Edited at: 25th Feb 2007 20:00
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Mod Note: Please confine your posts to the topic at hand.
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Slayer_2
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Posted: 25th Feb 2007 19:55 Edited at: 25th Feb 2007 20:18
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well good luck with that man and you should really get the full version if you want to sell your game. (edit) whoops nevermind

OK back on topic, all pricings are based off the average person who has never heard of FPSC. I put all prices in US dollars. This is obviously total money made not profits.

Game 1: This game was made entirely using FPSC, stock assets, and stock scripts. You might have used one (but no more than one) model pack, and you may have added a few new scripts (although more than 90% of the game's scripts came with FPSC).

$3-$5 but only if people can get past the no hands thing to enjoy the game.

Game 2: You're using FPSC and generic scripts/ assets, but you've also included assets from at least two, but no more than 4 model packs. Up to 50% of the game's scripts may have been altered-stock, or even original scripts.

$5-$11 if your lucky maybe by $12.

Game 3: This game was made using FPSC and generic scripts/ assets, but you've included at least five model packs. (I added the next part on) At least 15% of the media in your game (scripts are obviously included) is custom made or re textured.

$10-$16. this is were our game fits in. (We are probably going to sell it for $11)

Game 4: You've used the FPSC engine, but you've written all (or at least most (70%+) of the scripts yourself. You haven't used any of the stock assets; you (and/ or your team) created all of the 3D models, textures, music, Foley work (sound effects), etc. But the FPSC engine is otherwise stock.

$15-$25 As much as forum members will like your custom work others will not distinguish it and therefore its not that big a step up (price wise) from game 3.

Game 5: You've re-worked the FPSC engine using Dark BASIC Professional with the specific intention of altering or removing old features, adding new features, and otherwise making the engine suit the specific needs of your title. You've used mostly (70%+) original scripts, and you haven't used any stock assets whatsoever.

$20-$30 dollars with the engine rewritten and the addition of new features like turrets and other stuff you can at least expect the price of a second hand "professional" game.
Slayer_2.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 25th Feb 2007 22:45
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Slayer, that's exactly what I was hoping to see from people, ty .

I'd still like to figure out how to re-categorize the games so they're more applicable to FPSC users, I'm just not sure where to start with that. I'm thinking maybe we should create a list based on the actual creative content of the game, and the quality of the assets therein, and try to narrow the list down to a broad scope of three to five game-types.


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xplosys
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Posted: 25th Feb 2007 23:23
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I think Slayer_2 makes a valid point here.

Quote: "all pricings are based off the average person who has never heard of FPSC. "


You have broken this down by mostly content, all of which the prospective customer knows nothing about. While first impression is important and you should have the best graphics possible, the buyer doesn't know anything about the original FPSC V.1.0 content or which model pack you used. He will never know if you wrote your own scripts or reworked the engine unless he is one of us, and then he would not buy the game anyway.


Now whether or not you can make a fun, smooth playing, good looking game with only stock media is another question. Personnaly, I don't think that any stock or add on model pack available today provides enough media to create an entire game. I also don't think that the included scripts are in any way capable of producing a game that plays well, which is why I earlier discounted your rating system.

Quote: "I'm thinking maybe we should create a list based on the actual creative content of the game, and the quality of the assets therein, and try to narrow the list down to a broad scope of three to five game-types."


I think you're getting closer but you're still trying to qualify the games by what content is used, instead of the game and gameplay. If I make a game with the modified engine and use all custom media, scripts and music, and the game stinks, how much should it sell for?

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 02:56
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That's what I was trying to say... I must have worded it poorly (I do that pretty often). I meant that we should create a scale for games that considers the creativity involved in the story, the gameplay, and the quality of the assets. For instance, if you release a game with no lightmapping, low texture quality, and amateur models, with the basic features of FPSC being utilized, and a typical FPS plot, then it wouldn't sell even close to as well as a game with high-quality lightmapping, textures, and models, and an original story with entertaining gameplay. So how can we scale that?


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Slayer_2
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 17:22 Edited at: 27th Feb 2007 02:20
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How about we redo the pricing system like this: There are 8 factors like models, media, scripts and so on. Each factor has 3 points 1=bad, 2=OK and 3=good. the amount of the total points adds up to the amount you could charge for your game, a maximum of $24

so here are the 8 factors I've filled them out randomly for an example:

Graphic quality: 3

Sound quality: 2

Game play: 2

Originality/storyline: 1

length (of the game): 2

Quality of the cut scenes:2

AI difficulty: 1

Custom models: 1

Total: 14 or $14

well there's the list so what does everyone think?
Slayer_2

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Inspire
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Posted: 27th Feb 2007 00:12
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I am not sure what that means.

The whole point is giving the customer a reason to buy your game. Most people wouldn't buy an FPSC that they see online with just a few screenshots. Even after playing the demo it might be a bit sketchy. Most non-FPSC users would go into this expecting a professional game. Yeah, you may force your friends and family to buy it, but unless it's near professional, with great graphics and A.I. no non-FPSC user will buy it (in my opinion).

I think they main market is FPSC users. You have to show them things that they didn't think could be done in this engine, and show creativity during gameplay. Custom media is almost a necessity if you want to sell to other FPSC users. If your game is creative, custom and professional, I think the most you can sell it for around here is $20.

Outside of these forums you could probably sell a game for maybe $30, if you find some person that wants a cheap game to play and is pretty much clueless about computers. FPSC isn't nearly the professional engine we all want it to be, so there is no way you can sell it $50 which is the price of most professional games.

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KeithC
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Posted: 27th Feb 2007 02:29
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Again; unless you plan on factoring in the cost of burning CD's and shipping them, you're going to lose a significant number of potential customers from the LARGE file sizes.



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Slayer_2
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Posted: 27th Feb 2007 02:33
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I don't think many FPSC user would buy an FPSC game. So I based it off the average person who has no or little knowledge of FPSC games. I think, assuming you make a quality game, only approximately 1/10 of your sells will be FPSC users. I am also assuming the person likes FPS games and isn't a total graphics freak who only cares about graphical quality and thinks graphics make or break the game.

{quote}I am not sure what that means.

I don't know what you mean either could you clarify please?
Slayer_2

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 23:27
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I think Slayer is on to something with that scale, but I feel like either (A) the assets need to all be wrapped up into one variable, or (B) each individual form of asset should be calculated. But rating assets is always the easiest way to rate a game. How do we rate it on terms of originality and design planning? We shouldn't simply say "originality/ storyline" as one single parameter, and we should try to explain how originality factors into things.

When most people purchase indie games, they want a change... something different. As I've been saying for years, people are fed up with killing the usual suspects. If I could go the rest of my gaming life without killing a single Nazi soldier, Alien, or Zombie, not once ever again, then I would die a very happy gamer. So I think rating the content of the game is desperately important here... if I tried to sell Pod 9 it wouldn't move a single copy (okay, maybe it would sell 3 copies if I were extremely (and magically) lucky). But if a game has an original story, the level design is well-planned, the assets are top-notch, and the game is presented in a professional way*, then the game could definitely sell for more than $10. But it's defining those qualities and proving parameters for them that presents the biggest challenge.

So how do we define quality in the realm of originality and design? That's the real question I think.

(* = When I said "presented in a professional way," I specifically meant that a lot of indie developers skimp out on going the distance in terms of making their game look professional. I'm usually disturbed when I see a game's credits filled with screen names, and if I see that then I won't purchase the game, simply put. Sort of an off-topic rant, but something some of you should probably take into consideration. You know who you are )


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