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FPSC Classic Product Chat / FPSC No Good For Outdoor Scenes

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Komet
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 13:22 Edited at: 13th Mar 2007 13:25
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I come to the conclusion, perhaps long ago but certainly today that while FPSC is great value for money, it does place severe restrictions on what you can do with the programme and the types of games you can create.

Large outdoor scenes are a big no-no, today I tried to create a small forest, umm... looked fine until I noticed it had froze, I had to force reboot and lost all that I had created in the past few hours (yeah I should have saved).

But anyway, this pretty much means that I'm restricted to making mainly indoor scenes with minimum enemies if I want to maintain an FPS around the 30 mark.

Why is FPSC so restrictive and such a resource hog? Can that not be resolved so that it can allow for large outdoor scenes or indeed any outdoor levels and have multiple enemies?

It's like yes... this is a first person shooter, but stay indoors and preferably to tunnels and don't expect to have more than a handful of enemies and don't position them near each other! I don't know any kind of FPS game that is like so other than those made with FPSC.

If you ever make a decent game with FPSC (and it would have to be on a very high spec computer) then rest assured as it stands now few would be able to play it, most would regret buying it and the playability reviews would be none too polite.
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bond1
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 14:38 Edited at: 13th Mar 2007 14:41
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It states VERY clearly in the manual how to build your levels to mantain FPS. Mainly, using closed rooms and corriders to keep everything nice and sealed. Expecting FPSC to make all types of first person shooter games is just too much for a one-size-fits-all click and drag engine.

The level of optimization that goes into a commercial game is insane. If you want to even ATTEMPT to make an outdoor level, you need to optimize each and every model you put into your game.

I think you've just bought Lightwave and Bodypaint, correct? Well, start using them! Optimize!!! That is, delete every single polygon that won't be seen by the player, ie, delete all polygons on the bottom of table legs, etc, etc.

If you own Half Life 2, it's really worth taking a look at that game's models in a 3d modelling program. You'll then begin to see the optimization that takes place in a commercial game. I think you would be surprised to see that the weapon models aren't even complete....the parts that are off screen have their polys deleted, even the hands don't have polys on the underside where they won't be seen by the player.

If you can't optimize FPSC's engine to fit your specific needs, you can at least optimize on the art side of things.

----------------------------------------
"Your mom goes to college."
My FPSC stuff at http://www.hyrumark.com
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pkburr02
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 15:03
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just wondering does anyone know the average polygon count of a charater model in FPSC. when i first started playing with 3d modeling i was told you never wanted to go above about 1200 per character. but that was about the time of half-life 1.
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Uthink
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 15:06
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I think you can create good outdoor scenes, you're just not being creative enough. Drop the polys in your models. Create textures that give a 3D effect to 2D objects. Use natural barriers to control where people go. And create a good story that keeps people from wanting to wander all over the place. In the beginning of "Zelda: Twilight Princess" the out door scene around the treehouse and village are very limited, but I don't care. I don't care because I've plenty of stuff to do.
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xplosys
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 15:24 Edited at: 13th Mar 2007 15:25
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There are a few developers on this forum, not professional by world standards, but developers at heart for sure. They realize the work and time it takes to learn and hone your skills in order to create something great. They realize that even with the unreal engine, it's no easy task to create a game from start to finish and that it takes years to do it right. They see the shortcomings of the engine as challenges and use their creativity to overcome and inspire us with amazing results. They have learned to work within the confines of it, and stretch it when possible to achieve the desired outcome.

But they are few, and those who see the challenges as impassible chasms are many. Some will go on to greatness, and many will fall by the way. Such is the way of all things in life, and is neither surprising nor alarming. It is in fact the way it should be, for without failure, how can one realize success?

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

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Komet
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 15:29 Edited at: 13th Mar 2007 15:33
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The manual is out of date apparently bond1... and when someone buys FPSC keeping everything 'nice and sealed' to maintain FPS is not mentioned in the pre-sales talk is it. No, we are led to believe that it can do wonderful things like in other FPS games.

I don't expect to make all kinds of first person shooter games, just a first person shooter that has the capability to be a first person shooter game. FPSC currently does not whichever way you like to wrap it up.

There's no vehicles that move and no capability to use any, no smoke grenades, no phosphorus grenades, no stun grenades, no ships, and no planes, many of these things are pretty standard in a first person shooter thesedays.

Well I ATTEMPTED to make an outdoor scene, heck we have models that are street lamps, plants, trees, crates, boulders, roads, and lots more besides which hardly look at home indoors do they.

I've not played Half-Life, my favourite games are Rome Total War, Battlefield 2 and America's Army and I don't currently know modelling. But you do and have created Model Pack 4, which I bought by the way. So as you know about model optimization, is that what you did with the Models in that pack? I did some tests, I put 6 of that pack in a room and my FPS dropped to 14 FPS, I put 6 SWAT models in a room and the FPS was higher...

In a test today I used a pre-fab, just the large bunker, added 5 floor tiles outside the door, added a start marker (I did NOT add weapons, enemies or anything else). Inside the bunker my FPS was a blistering 33, I opened the door and went outside and the FPS shuddered to 32 but then scrambled back to 33.

Now if I started adding entities or segments you can bet that FPS would start to drop dramatically... and I would trudge along like a demented zombie, lastly what's the point of having a game without a decent amount of enemies to shoot anyway, I mean the name is first person shooter not barbie goes sight seeing in tunnels and sewers.
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bond1
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 15:40 Edited at: 13th Mar 2007 15:55
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Quote: "So as you know about model optimization, is that what you did with the Models in that pack? I did some tests, I put 6 of that pack in a room and my FPS dropped to 14 FPS, I put 6 SWAT models in a room and the FPS was higher..."


Those models have anywhere between anywhere 1200-1900 tris, so yes they are quite optimized. By the way, the SWAT characters all use the same model...same model, different textures. Also the SWAT characters use 512x512 textures, the ones from MP4 use 1024x1024. So yes if you put 6 SWAT characters in the same room it uses less resources. And that's the kind of thing you should research if you're REALLY serious about making a first-class game with FPSC. Not just how characters you can put in a room, but also how many UNIQUE characters you can have at the same time, not to mention the scripts that they use, animation set, etc...

I DO agree about the enemy issue, there could be more on screen than is currently possible. I just wanted to point out what happens art-wise in a commercial game.

Check out section 11 of the manual for level building guidelines.

----------------------------------------
"Your mom goes to college."
My FPSC stuff at http://www.hyrumark.com
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FredP
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 17:06
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You can have outdoor levels.I have a couple that I am working on.
But mine are extremely small.
Optimization,as Bond states,is the answer.While I tend not to worry about the poly count so much with characters and weapons (within reason) I am usually pretty tight on the static entities and make them low poly.
There have been several threads dedicated to optimization and outdoor levels,long hallways,a lot of windows,etc. can slow your game down.
I also have found that when placing enemies I place them one at a time and adjust their AI on an enemy by enemy basis.
Obviously placing a bunch of them together is a no-no but you can space them a little bit...sometimes moving a character an inch or two (or even less) can have a remarkable effect of the game's speed.
And there's nothing that will replace practice and experience.The more you use FPSC the more you will learn about what works and why.

http://www.wembley1967.com
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KeithC
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 17:10
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You could always take Bond's 1024x1024 textures and reduce them to 512x512, re-apply them to the models and see if it makes a difference in frame-rate.

-Keith



Ozark Games
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Bronny
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 20:10
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In some level I have to agree with Komet, actually sometimes the game is lagging a lot just because you have 2 enemies near eachothers.

The max FPS I get with version 1.04 is 32 FPS, whatever setting I choose thats the maximum, and most other normal games has 100 as a max so by him saying that this isin't exactly as smooth as other game making programs I have to agree, However (wait until you read this before you start atacking my post.)

FPS Creator is a very easy program, and for what you get with this awsome program its more than better than any other similar game making program. I don't think there is a better one to be honest, if you know of a better one, tell me and I'd change to it.

But right now in my eyes FPSC is best for easy game making
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Komet
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 21:16
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@ bond1: I'll reprint out section 11 of the manual again, cheers. Interesting about the size difference in the characters, any idea what the size and stats are of the characters in BF2?

@ Fred: I'm now thinking about the possibility of having very small outdoor levels and the other ideas you mentioned. Yeah one of my levels contained a couple of hundred windows which could be shot and the glass would break, I noticed that the game would be real slow, infact my dead grandma moved faster. Now I'm thinking about making segments with pretend windows and scenes like I saw in East Germany when they were still communist... buildings looking normal at the front but at the back hidden from view bricks missing etc. With FPSC we can do better than that and remove whole walls at the back.

@ Keith: I will certainly give that idea a try, maybe cut off a few non-essentials like hands and feet while I'm at it

@ Bronny: I would be the first to recommend FPSC for its low cost and ease of use, for those aspects it is number one and beats any other game engine hands down, TGC have done a fantastic job and I do appreciate the updates Lee made to it very recently.

I guess I'm just sore at losing my forest outdoor setting, it was really something with lots of different trees, many different long grasses and plants, boulders broken trees etc. and I was about to add moving water
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vorconan
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 22:32 Edited at: 13th Mar 2007 22:35
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Admittedly, the characters in fpsc stock media do lag the frame-rate after placing about 2 enemies, but instead of creating a thread with you expressing your fustration towards the subject, think about whether anyone here can actually fix this problem.

In the games i'm experimenting with at the moment, i use fog which seems to increase the frame-rate quite a lot most of the time, and I'm also creating more of a psychological aspect to the games; not everyone wants to know that an enemy is around every corner, if you make the games have few enemies jumping at you from the most unlikely places, not only will it make the player jump, it will increase the frame-rate. If you haven't played doom 3, then I suggest you try it, then you will see what I'm on about.

I personally think that Fps Creator was a bargain for what you get, maybe some people think that you can only place a few enemies, keys, weapons and get going, but you can do so much more when you learn more about it, I'm still learning loads about it now, and I've had it just about when the final version came out. If you want a higher frame-rate or a better game, then get Torque Game Engine, even though I'm quite able in it now, I still think FPSC gives me more opportunities, basically because of it's simplicity.

All I'm saying from that is that you should find ways of getting round your problems instead of telling us them, because all I can say really for this problem is: use fog, less enemies, use more scripting, play doom 3 and be thankful to TGC. If you are still concerned, either spend 30yrs trying to master Torque Game Engine, wait for FPS Creator X10, or try 2D game development.

evil lies within all of us...we just don't know it yet
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superman22x
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 23:14
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Far cry for xbox 360 has a very good creator for simple terrain. If they could incorporate something like that into FPSC it would be great. A combo of far crys game creator and FPSC would be the way to go.
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Komet
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 23:46
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First off vorconan I am grateful to TGC for producing the FPSC software, it's a brilliant and easy programme to use to produce games which is very low cost personally I think they sell it too cheap but that's up to them.

TGC make the game creation software and we their customers make the games, if we don't express our views, ideas and gripes then TGC get no feedback, they don't have to take onboard anything what any of us says but if they see a common request, then maybe they will find it helpful or at least consider doing something about it.

I don't think x10 will bring about most of the things I mentioned at the start of this thread, if you do then great, but I'm still not buying Vista and therefore not x10 either. No it's no about money either, last year I spent thousands of pounds (£) on various software and this year has already started to prove expensive on that score too.

I do test FPSC to the extreme and also have recently tried to come up with ways to boost my FPS, nomatter what I do it will never be above 33 FPS though.

Below is a screenshot it kind of proves what FPSC could do if only for the FPS, the level contains no less than 784 grass and tree entities! (Not counting segments) FPS is 5. Looks cool though I think

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 13th Mar 2007 23:47
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Various steps have been made recently in regards to terrain and outdoor environments.

I released a full scale terrain which uses the full size of the FPSC map editor grid for people to have a play with

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-_UIsGZ0IM

Thread:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=100284&b=24

Rolfy has made great steps in getting fully functional terrain into FPSC using smaller sections which need to be patched together but don't suffer from the enemy collision issue that mine currently does

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmm6dvYQll4

Thread:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=100643&b=24

Butter Fingers has provided information about some jungle environments he was working on and a ruined town

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=99984&b=25

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=101442&b=24

And I'm sure there are others and plenty of effort being put in by other members of the community as we speak. Also all of these efforts currently run at a constant 30+ frames per second which goes to show that FPSC isn't quite as bad with outdoor maps as people might think. I also put together a semi outdoor map offering a generously sized outdoor section with plenty of models (all be it static) and enemies which runs at a constant 30 frames per second and is totally playable.

It's a well known fact that FPSC was not designed to be a leading engine as far as outdoor environments and terrain is concerned but the above evidence speaks for itself. Implementing a entire forrest with wall to wall trees might be asking a bit much but careful planning, optimisation, and thorough testing should get you towards your goal.

At least we are getting support from Lee for ensuring stability at the moment which might see things improve for the possibilities with taking the engine outside of it's comfort zone. If your heart is set on an outdoor level keep working at. Yes you might have to make a few comprimises but that's to be expected and seeing your ideas come to fruition within the confines of the engine is what motivates us all to keep going.

You only have to look at Doom3 to know that even the most highly acclaimed of engines don't do everything well out of the box as terrain / outdoor sections very much take a back seat here.
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DOMRAY
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 00:35 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 00:36
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wow your fps is 4.can you post your map/fpm so i can try it out i have the same model pack and tried to make a level just like yours and my frame rate is 32 i want to try your map out to see if my fps drops to 4 . i have never had that bad of frame rate in fpsc for me.



It's better to Burn Out than to Fade away.Victor Kruger/The Kurgan
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Komet
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 01:07
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Sure DOMRAY, I removed the tracks and some of the mud/earth and replaced it with the default ground.

Please post a screenshot of your fps when you load the level.

My computer specs are:

2.54GHz Intel Pentium 4 Retail (non-OEM) CPU
512 MB RAM
2 x 40 GB HDD
Radeon 9550 AGP 256 MB

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Komet
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 01:13
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Thanks for the info Nomad Soul. Yes I'm well aware we are getting support in increasing stability from Lee, it was me that initiated the thread and e-mail that brought our concerns to his attention.
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Thraxas
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 02:15
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Quote: "I do test FPSC to the extreme and also have recently tried to come up with ways to boost my FPS, nomatter what I do it will never be above 33 FPS though."


Doesn't FPSC have a cap on the frame rates? So it doesn't matter what you do you'll never get it to run higher... I think you can remove the cap in test game by pressing 'x'...
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DOMRAY
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 02:27 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 02:28
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my fps was low 11 high 15 .but i can see why it was so bad there is over 700 entitys on the edge of the map in a straight line.

that is as bad as making one big long hallway i know it was just a test but still i don't even think you could try that in hl2.
there is a lot of ways to make a nice outdoor level.

i am not a big fan on building anything on the edge of the map. i try to stay 2 squares in when i build stuff.i would like to try it just the way it is in the center of the map to see if the fps are still that low.







AMD Athlon 64 FX-57 Processor
mb.A8N-SLI DELUXE
2xNVIDIA GeForce 7800 GTX
RAM:512MB
2gb of ram

still was a fun test.and ty for posting the map

It's better to Burn Out than to Fade away.Victor Kruger/The Kurgan
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Komet
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 02:46
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@ DOMRAY, I told you there were 700+ entities and it was pushing things to the extreme

Yes it's fun to test these things and compare results, even with three times more RAM than I have your low FPS was 11, and your graphics card is better again with more RAM.

Thanks for the tip about not building close to the edge, that's something I'm always guilty of.

@ Thraxas, pressing x has no effect as far as I can see and I don't know why TGC would want to cap the framerate, that does not make sense to me.
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Thraxas
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 03:14 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 03:35
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I don't know why they have capped the frame rate but I am sure they have... I'll look around the forum for posts about it...[edit]This thread has an explanation... I don't have DBPro, but from what I can gather setting 'sync rate' to 30 is what caps the fps...[/edit]

As far as pressing x goes it should do something... I just loaded up terrorstrike and hit x and got 94 fps...

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Komet
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 14:51
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Looks like you could be correct Thraxas, I tried it a second time on a different map and pressing x worked, check the screenshot

However, now I understand why they may well have capped it, I was running around like a race horse that had been given a cycle of gear, bumping into walls and having no fluid control over movement, it looked very unnatural.

So the problem is not framerate capability so much but keeping movement looking normal, I guess TGC have not got an answer for that other than capping?

Of course, adding more entities and other media will slow down the movement rate, but how to check exactly how much media is in a level and then allow extra FPS to be released to compensate, maybe this could be coded in, a routine that checks media effects on FPS then the releasing of additional FPS to keep the FPS healthy but movement looking normal?

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PAS
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 15:43 Edited at: 14th Mar 2007 21:42
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The FPSC game I am making has indoor and outdoor. I start everything as close to the middle as possible. I never make a game on the very edge of where you can start building. I have found that for scenes that I did on the edge that had a lower frame rate, if you bring them in as close to the center as possible, then it has less chance to glitch or slow down. Another tactic I use is I check the frame rate after I put in each model wepaon etc. That way I know what is slowing down the game and then I can decide what I need to change, keep or leave out. I hope this helps.

K.L. Phair
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Komet
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 17:52
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That sounds like good advice PAS, cheers I will try to make use of it in my games from now on.
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Johnathon
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Posted: 14th Mar 2007 22:41
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I'm new. How do you even make outdoor levels?

PLEASE HELP
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Butter fingers
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 12:31
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ok, I haven't read all of this because I could see that it disolved into bitching about the issues of using FPSC, but i'd just like to say that open areas are perfectly possible:

check out the "dense jungle WIP" in the showcase

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