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FPSC Classic Product Chat / [LOCKED] FPSC a grim out look

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sniper_uk
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 10:07 Edited at: 20th Mar 2007 10:10
the wizard of id's post same subject

with the greatest respect fredp,
the wizard has made some valid points i want to create online games but whats the point with the present set up, 8 players,1 map in the game,no dynamic objects and more bugs than the amazon jungle.
Don't get me wrong TGC could have a great product here and they probably think they have but i wished they built a complete package rather than a half baked one.
i haven't got a downer on TGC i'm sure there doing everything in their power to put things right but it does appear to most (from my experience on the forums) that some things have been neglected and it's about time they were put right concidering the release date of fps creator
Veron
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 10:18
No offence, but there's been WAY too many threads about FPSC lacking real multiplayer features, and the answer is basically:

TGC has released an update for FPSC for Multiplayer, but if you want things like CTF, 100 people in a game room, better connection, you'll have to mod the game source yourself, which is what's being done for our good with FPSC Unleashed. All we can do now is hope that FPSC Unleashed comes out like it says it will, or you can edit the game source yourself. Whichever path you choose, you can see that FPSC is not made for multiplayer.

My 2 cents worth...

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Komet
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 11:29 Edited at: 20th Mar 2007 11:31
True, there are too many threads about improving multiplayer and who knows if TGC bother to read any of them anyway.

I figure that we the FPSC customers 'are not' in a position to make FPSC stable or add features like improved multiplayer capability, we don't have the latest source code and it is TGC's product and therefore up to them to make the improvements or not.

After reading through countless posts about FPSC Unleashed I have to say seeing will be believing, there's a lot of code involved and apparently the released source code is not exactly documented to aid other programmers.

On top of that there are the claims of vaporware, denials of vaporware and it all sounds not only that it isn't going to happen but that it cannot anyway.

Higgins I believe started a petition, unfortunately he mispelled petition as partition, not a shooting offense but a company is less likely to take the petition seriously if presented in such a manner, perhaps even thinking that most of the posts are just wish lists put forward by those of their customers who are still at school, certainly typing posts in full caps is not going to change that image.

If you want Multiplayer to be improved then I think the best way is to make a realistic list of features you want added, add them to just one list and when complete for everyone interested to e-mail that same list to Lee with a request for the changes to be implemented.
Veron
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 11:41
Quote: "There's a lot of code involved and apparently the released source code is not exactly documented to aid other programmers."


Woah, don't even get me started on that. Aid other programmers? More like hinder! No offence to TGC there. I've had a look through it, and simple things like better code organisation would make FPSC run faster, not having haphazard functions thrown around, with random GOSUBS and stuff like that.

Quote: "On top of that there are the claims of vaporware, denials of vaporware and it all sounds not only that it isn't going to happen but that it cannot anyway."


What's vaporware?

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Komet
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 11:59
Quote: "Woah, don't even get me started on that. Aid other programmers? More like hinder! No offence to TGC there. I've had a look through it, and simple things like better code organisation would make FPSC run faster, not having haphazard functions thrown around, with random GOSUBS and stuff like that."


Sounds like a nightmare, but to hinder was probably not the intention, I bet when the code was first written releasing the source was not in mind, if so that would end the 'hinder' theory.

That leaves other possibilities, you figure it out.

Quote: "What's vaporware?"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
sniper_uk
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 13:07 Edited at: 20th Mar 2007 13:08
Theres way to many threads on this subject because thats what people want, even i can figure that one out and i'm not at school.
The solution could be that a stand alone version of fps creator just for multiplayer could be the answer,i would certainly buy it and i'm sure others would too.
As for the patch i've tried it with no success, no improvement what so ever.
I bought fps creator because i have no programming experience and now you want me to muck about with the source code, that defeats the object doesn't it.
TGC should have left fpsc without an arena mode if they didn't expect people to want more from it.
Van B
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 13:43
I'm not surprised the FPSC source is messy, it's written in BASIC, and BASIC programs as complex as FPSC will always be complicated. What did you expect?
For anyone except Lee to make changes and additions to the source would be a scary prospect, and I'm not talking about a FPSC user messing with the source code, I'm talking about the most seasoned DBPro coders on this forum wouldn't attempt it.

I'm sorry, but FPSC Unleashed is not the sort of thing anyone should rely on happening. As I always say about FPSC, when you need more from it, that's time to move onto DBPro and more rounded game dev. With the additions to DBPro over the last couple of years and programs like 3D World Studio, writing FPS games in DBPro is a lot easier than it used to be, it would just take time to learn it is all, then the world is your lobster.

The new version of FPSC is being written in DarkSDK and C++, so things might completely change, nobody knows yet - I think it's safe to say that multiplayer is not TGC's #1 concearn right now though.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Jeremiah
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 13:44
Well there are positive and negative aspects to both sides of the debate. Alone or together? If you really want to make a popular Multi-player game then it should include both a story based introductory single-player as well as levels designed around the game you use in story mode to further bring your players into this wonderful world that you have created. While certain sole multiplayer works for games like halo-2 I feel that we will not benefit unless there is a story mode, given the lack of graphics capbilities / functionality / particles as well as a host of other issues. FPSC is great on some levels, but here is to hoping for bigger and better things in the future. Since, I already know of two companies that will be starting up shortly that will be giving FPSC a run for their money, they should get on the ball.

Just my two cents.
Jeremiah
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 13:52
Van, I agree they probably won't and shouldn't bother with this version, they are going to have their hands full with FPSC 2.0 . I say if we are going to petition and not partition it should be for features in a system that we know they plan to continue work on.

BTW, they need to know that if they take the time to make vast improvements in a perticular piece of software that we are willing to pay to see it done. I know I am. (Vast though)
Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:10
Quote: "I'm not surprised the FPSC source is messy, it's written in BASIC, and BASIC programs as complex as FPSC will always be complicated. What did you expect?"

I've seen better structured code than the FPSC source, BASIC code can have better structure than Lee uses. To be honest I think Lee's coding style is a little dated, and it seems as if his preferred language is BASIC over C due to this.

I do admire what he manages to achieve though, the FPSC source file is absolutely gigantic, it must have taken quite some time to write that. There are some areas that seem a little rushed though...

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Komet
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:15
Quote: "With the additions to DBPro over the last couple of years and programs like 3D World Studio, writing FPS games in DBPro is a lot easier than it used to be, it would just take time to learn it is all, then the world is your lobster."


DBPro has bugs that still remain I recall reading. I think it's kind of unlikely that FPSC customers will buy 3D World Studio or any other TGC product if TGC don't act on the wishes of their customers, there's also that old but valid saying... once bitten, twice shy.

Quote: "The new version of FPSC is being written in DarkSDK and C++, so things might completely change, nobody knows yet"


Lee mentioned that FPSC and FPSC x10 will eventually run on the same engine to cut down on programming, how is that possible if FPSC is written in BASIC and x10 is being written in DarkSDK and C++?

Quote: "- I think it's safe to say that multiplayer is not TGC's #1 concearn right now though."


Well maybe it should be, enough of their customers are requesting that they do just that.
Jeremiah
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:17
Ben, you also got to keep in mind that the FPSC source is just the tip of the iceberg. There is a lot more than just that, you have the editor as well as few other pieces of stuff under the hood that they don't give us access to. It is currently the best wysiwyg editor for creating games out there. (that i know of) So much can be better and here's to hoping that they can fulfill that promise.
Van B
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:20
Quote: "I've seen better structured code than the FPSC source, BASIC code can have better structure than Lee uses."


I know, but you haven't seen better structured code that does as much as FPSC - when a program get's to that size, and get's bug fixes, and adjustments - pretty soon that well structured program you had turns into a mess, it's usually better to completely rewrite something than to try and tidy it up. I hope that's the case with x10, they get an idea of all the aspects they need then redo it all (or at least most of it) in C++. It's how a few professionals work, the lead designer of the Farcry games for instance uses DBPro to quickly flesh out ideas . No matter what platform your using, your still on a rung on a ladder, even C++ engine coders have to look upto Assembly and machine code, which I'm sure Lee will adopt for v3.0 <joke, it's not 1992 anymore!>.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Locrian
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:26
Quote: "The new version of FPSC is being written in DarkSDK and C++,"

OK, I didn't see that comming. Sometimes it is easier to start fresh then try and cobble together some fixes, so I understand.

Well I wish them luck on this.
Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:33 Edited at: 20th Mar 2007 14:36
Quote: "I know, but you haven't seen better structured code that does as much as FPSC"

I know, but I'm sure if I did it would at least use multiple source files to split the engine into sections.

Quote: "pretty soon that well structured program you had turns into a mess"

In BASIC, I agree.

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Origin
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:34
If TGC had put more time, and thought into the FPSC project, it would have been much better...

Instead of having the "It compiles, Lets ship it!" attitude, they should have worked on it much more, before shipping it..! Thats my opinion.

Anyway, I think they have done a great job with this product, and the upgrades!

Origin

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it's larger than 600x120....
Reality Forgotten
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:35
I'm a god at pong....

My statement reflects how usefull this post is


Uthink
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:37
A lot of these threads seem to come across like...

"I bought a Mini Cooper, and wish I could haul a washer and dryer in it. And I also want to go four-wheeling in it. Hey, where's the bathroom in this vehicle?"

The tools are out there. Don't try to use a hammer to drive a screw in. It costs more money to buy a decent website building tool than to purchase FPSC.

I think FPSC is a good entry-level tool to help you learn the basics of game construction and story building. It's a way to help you decide if you want to sink hundreds of hours into game development. And just like when you think you want to be a musician, you buy a cheap guitar to get started. As you get better, you buy better guitars. Now is the time to ask yourself, have you outgrown FPSC? Odds are many people here have, but they don't want to invest the time and money to get to the next level. We're always looking for an easy way out.

You don't have to throw away your investment in FPSC. You could still use it as a prototyping tool. Work out level design in minutes.
Origin
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:39
Quote: "I'm a god at pong....

My statement reflects how usefull this post is"


LOL!

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it's larger than 600x120....
Jeremiah
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:50
I want the easy way out!!! Here here look at me.
Komet
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:50 Edited at: 20th Mar 2007 15:00
Quote: "The tools are out there. Don't try to use a hammer to drive a screw in. It costs more money to buy a decent website building tool than to purchase FPSC."


I've said it before that in my opinion FPSC is too low priced, I would have liked them to hiked the price up and continued to add features and bug fixes.

Quote: "Now is the time to ask yourself, have you outgrown FPSC? Odds are many people here have, but they don't want to invest the time and money to get to the next level. We're always looking for an easy way out."


I agree with the first part, many people have invested a lot of time and effort and know no programming, some have also bought model packs, FPSC compatiable third party software, or even paid for FPSC models to be created, should those people then look elsewhere because FPSC won't in effect have further improvements?

What happens to all that they invested? I don't see this as FPSC customers being lazy or seeking an easy way out, they signed up for a product that promised to go to mars but is now being abandoned on the moon instead.
Jeremiah
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 14:52
Uhm, the moon? I feel that most see themselves stuck in a skyrise as far I can tell
Van B
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 15:29
Maybe mars is X10.

I don't see why there's this autonegative attitude here, TGC don't care, FPSC is not performing as promised. It's being worked on FFS, if you want more than that then you simply won't get it. I know some people like a rant, me included, but come on, this dead horsey has had enough stick.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Lon
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 15:54 Edited at: 20th Mar 2007 15:57
Grenades, rocket launchers, remote mines, proximity mines. If these type of dynamic entitities were allowed in MP like in other games, FPSC multiplayer games would be more worth while to develop. I think thats what most people are griping about. However I'm thinking FPSC hasn't the netcode to handle synching these type of events accross a network (grenades & projectiles would not perform the same actions for all individuals or slow the game to a crawl trying).

Lon

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pkburr02
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 15:56
I honestly try to stay out of thes types of messages, but:
Quote: "TGC don't care"


If that's the case then I want my money back. I just bought this a few months ago, I'm not a programmer, and reading that you could make arena games was THE selling point for me. I went and bought every pack and DBP thinking i might go ahead and learn it. But since buying this and getting it up and running. I have seriously got to say some of you poeple make me wish I had taken up the customer support people when they did offer me a refund because the software wasn't working. (anyone who read the post where I told they planned on releasing the v1.05 patch saw I was offered a full refund)

BUT I waited until the patch, and still worked on it until I got it fixed, and now that it's working and I'm reading more from the forums i have to say "What was the point?" This is an FPSC forum and I keep seeing people say "If you don't like it learn DBP" screw that I bought this product for what it said it could do, not to be told to buy another one and learn to do it myself.

I don't blame TGC for not listening to its customers if they want to argue about stupid points like no flak in multiplayer, as long as multiplayer works like it says on the box why bitch about it?

If I get noob slapped for this, that's fine, if I get flamed I don't care. But come on people, there are tons of "noobs" buying this if for no other reason to get started in making games, no ones saying they are going to create Halo 3 with it, but they do want a program where the features on the box are in the software.

Stupid people are like Slinkies, it's fun to watch them fall down stairs. And some times you need to give them a push.
sniper_uk
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:00 Edited at: 20th Mar 2007 16:08
oh god what have i started,
guys all your views are very valid and yes i'm one of those people that i would concider lazy if that was the right term, but probably unlike you guys you've grown up playing with pc's,i'm 44 (don't laugh)and have had a pc only in the last 4 years but that doesn't mean like you young pups i don't enjoy a good scrap when it comes to first person shooters it's a great way to releave stress.
when i heard there was a product on the market that could build me either a sp or a mp game with no experience of programming it was like a dream come true as i admit i prefer mp games to sp's.
On the back of my copy of fps creator it clearly states as one of the top main features ......multiplayer(you can see this in the attachment)but it doesn't tell you your limited to 8 players,no dynamic entities,you can't have more than 1 map within the game arena,no ctb,ctf,teams or anything.
That's why i'm disappointed in the product, i'm not here to give people a stick to beat Lee Bamber or TGC with infact quite the opposite i'm hoping that they would see that there are problems that need to be resolved and mp is one of the issues alot of people feel strongly about, because the product isn't doing what it said it would.
I'm hoping with forums like this they may take note of our views and then put things right.

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pkburr02
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:08
I've got one better on the back of the box it tells you all kinds of spiffy things, like Full Physic System, Multiple Levels, Game scripting. At no point does it NOT say any of these features aren't included in one aspect of the game system.

Again I'm with sniper_uk, I'm not bashing Lee or TGC. But all you people who say the MP feature can go out the window need to understand us older people (although i'm not as old as sniper_uk) don't have all the time in teh world to learn how to program our own games. And I personally am not going to upgrade to Vista in the hopes that X10 will fix any of the problems.

I understand that rewriting the code for the whole program at this point might be the best thing and that it is a HUGE job. But maybe that's what needs to be done FPSC 2.0 should be after what we have but before x10. I would pay for that as an upgrade as long as it fixed a lot of the issues we're having.

Stupid people are like Slinkies, it's fun to watch them fall down stairs. And some times you need to give them a push.
Komet
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:19
Quote: "I don't see why there's this autonegative attitude here, TGC don't care, FPSC is not performing as promised."


I think Van B meant that the above is the attitude expressed by the disatisfied growing majority, rather than that TGC don't care.

I don't know if TGC cares or not, giving us a patch that corrects oustanding bugs was good even if we did have to wait ages, what bugs remain? I've lost track.

A better version of Multiplayer is all we really would like, I think MP is the major selling point why many people buy FPSC.
sniper_uk
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:20
lmao thanks pkburr02.....(sticking my head in the oven)
Jeremiah
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:27
Full physics system
Knock over objects and blow things up realistically? Really

Game Scripting
Customize every aspect of the game via scripts? Somethings, but every aspect really.


Guys this is called puffery, it's kind of like watching advertisements for burger king and seeing what the wonderful sandwiches look like and then when you get there, they are all smashed together. almost all governments allow some form of this.


For the most part I am very happy with it. It's rare to have a wysiwg editor perform better than I initially expected.

But, there is so much promise, I just want them to realize what is possible. If I were them, I would go full steam... pick up funding from private individuals and hire a larger staff, and really crank things up. If they really went for it, they could change the face of gaming forever.
Van B
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:28
Quote: "If that's the case then I want my money back"


When I said that I was meaning that's often the general opinion here, it's certainly not the case - but a lot of people see it that way despite the fact that things are happening and have been happening for some time now.

Personally I'm glad I don't use FPSC, because the very worst thing with game development is relinquishing control of your project - that's what you sorta have to do once it get's to a certain point that FPSC struggles, usually something specific (melee for example). When you hit this wall it seems that all you can do is wait, rather than take the bull by the horns and develop in other areas, people prefer to bitch about it.

So while your project waits on Lee improving FPSC, learn some modelling, make some music, edit some sounds, draw some textures, rough out some levels, start a new project, take up dancing, play lots of FPS games and steal their ideas, study FPSC scripting, write a nice storyline to go alongside your game...

wheeze...


...There's a ton and a half of things people could do besides bitching, yet it's rare for most people to do this.

Maybe the mods should let in the odd a-hole, someone to annoy the folk here to the point that they don't care about having to wait on improvements, give them someone to moan about.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
sniper_uk
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:28
well said Komet,
If it's impossible to correct any problems or add any features to the existing program to mp arena's then why not produce a new fps creator for multiplayer only i'm sure we'd all agree providing it was the complete package and did what we wanted we'd all buy it
pkburr02
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:36
When I quote Van earlier, I wasnt' trying to make it sound like TGC didn't care, or that Van thought TGC didn't care. I'm sure they do other wise why bother with releasing 1.05, or as in my previous post, why bother with the work next month. (wish i could find the tech support ticket number since my thread was deleted).

But they said they would be doing a overhaul of the MP system this April. That was the reason I didn't take up the offer of a refund. Because that statment seemed to back up the previous one they had made in the email saying that customer satisfaction is their highest priority. If this is the case great, I'll wait around for the updates, and might even do as Van suggests and learn DBP which I had planned to do anyhow.

But a little more productive communication with TGC would be a welcomed thing, i'm not saying day to day up to the minute stuff, but a weekly, biweekly memo of sorts say "Hey we haven't forgot about you guys"

Stupid people are like Slinkies, it's fun to watch them fall down stairs. And some times you need to give them a push.
sniper_uk
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:44
pk,
that v105 did you download the exe or did what i did and copy and paste from Lee's post
Komet
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:46
Quote: "Maybe the mods should let in the odd a-hole, someone to annoy the folk here to the point that they don't care about having to wait on improvements, give them someone to moan about."


Not the best way to keep customers though... and to be frank you have more chance of winning the lottery than of us being content to not moan, it's the nature of the drag n' dropper

With new people buying FPSC all the time you can expect these threads to appear I guess until multiplayer offers some features worth making a game for.

If you don't use FPSC then I suppose this don't really bother you and I can understand that.
sniper_uk
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:57 Edited at: 20th Mar 2007 17:02
it may be an idea if Lee or TGC opened a forum to get peoples ideas of what we want, then they could tell us whats possible at least this way there is an open dialog between the TGC and their customers


at least TGC would get a good idea of the features we would all like to see.


eg: instead of only 8 players 32
the use of frag weapons
more than 1 map in the game like soldier of fortune where once one has timed out the next starts
pkburr02
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 16:58
sniper_uk: I downloaded the first beta lee released had problems with installing and going back to 1.03 (noob mistatke of installing all the packs AFTER the update) so then i downloaded the exe since it had been upgraded to RC2 anyhow.

Idea for moderators though, add a new category "Bitching and moaning" let us rant and rave there, you don't have to moderate it, just make sure everyone knows what you type in there most likely won't be viewed by anyone of importance and wont' be taken seriously. Then at least then we can vent

I'm joking of course becuase you know as soon as that happened SOMEONE would start linking to those threads.

Stupid people are like Slinkies, it's fun to watch them fall down stairs. And some times you need to give them a push.
LeeBamber
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 17:08
Hey we haven't forgot about you guys I consider MP a feature that will become more and more important as we move forward. We will be starting a thread soon to discuss future possibilities for our multiplayer goals, including the provision of dedicated game servers to run arena games for more than 4 players. Amongst X10 eye candy and V10X stability, I rate multiplayer quite highly in the FPSC universe. Fear not, FPSC will continue to be improved, and yes, TGC care very much!

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
KeithC
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Posted: 20th Mar 2007 17:12
Looks like the Boss got here before I did. Seems that everyone had a chance to vent; that should satisfy everybody for another day or two....right?

-Keith

FredP
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Joined: 27th Feb 2006
Location: Indiana
Posted: 20th Mar 2007 22:03
Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in...
I am looking at the back of the FPS Creator package (the one the disk comes in) and so far I see nothing in the way of puffery or whatever you call it.
We just had one of these posts like this the other day and I said that if you read Lee's posts you would see that he is working on FPSC and x10 at the same time and there was just an update.
They are trying to work the kinks out.Things take time.
Overall,I am happy with what TGC has done with FPSC to this point.
The future is looking bright.

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