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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / ELITE on DBPRO!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?

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TriTon
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Posted: 13th May 2003 13:07
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People, is a problem, who may faced

Many of you should know on ZX-Spectrum game ELITE - a hit of that time!!!

And so the hunt to make something same, only on DBPRO and in 3D

If who saw FREELANCER from Microsoft'à that space at them is executed simply ideally how to make the same effect of space on DBPRO?

And if who tried I shall make something same is glad to listen to advice and wishes...


Excuse for my English, I from Moldova...
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Van B
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Posted: 13th May 2003 13:57
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There are a number of effects you can employ to get a good space scene. You can use a 6 sided textured skybox, so each side is a different spacey image. Personally, I think skysphere's are the best bet - with 3D planets to visit etc - the only thing you should really draw on the skysphere are the stars (non recognisible pattern you see - you could re-use them easily). I would suggest having any galaxy or coloured haze effects as seperate ghosted plains.

Some would say DB is ideal for space games, I mean there's so many - it just seems easy to get nice space graphics in DB.


Van-B

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Beta1
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Posted: 13th May 2003 14:38
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Oh god, dont start the "which platforn was elite originally written for" thing again...

The only problem with using sky/star spheres is that they have to be huge to allow you to fliy towards a planet and not have it suddenly pop into existance as it moves inside the visible area.

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Soyuz
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Posted: 13th May 2003 14:47
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BBC Micro
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Van B
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Posted: 13th May 2003 15:14
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He's not Beta1, you are!

The cool thing about skysperes is you can disable lighting and fogging on them, then use a black fog - that way, the planets will start as silouettes from a distance.


Van-B

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Beta1
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Posted: 13th May 2003 17:08
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Sorry couldn't resist.

Nice idea about the fogging/lighting trick - I forgot you could do that. Still doesnt solve the problem of it popping throught the sphere at some point. Maybe you could make the sphere transparent? I guess its really only a problem if your going to have "real size" planets suns, etc.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 13th May 2003 17:19
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Easily fied.



You could have many many planets and scenic objects with this system, in addition VanB's method does exclude planets from popping into existence by using fog to obscure the object to black at the range of the skysphere, whilst the sky sphere itself is not affected by fog.

Pneumatic Dryll
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The Darthster
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Posted: 13th May 2003 20:41
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I've figured out a way of making size illusions in DB, I'll throw together a quick demo that demonstrates this in relation to planets and stars and stuff. The only thing I find hard about this kind of thing is mapping the planet as you get closer, i.e. flying thought the atmosphere and being able to land on the planet and visit cities. I don't think one massive sphere as a planet would work, but you can't map square grid matrices to a sphere either. I'm sure there's a way to do it using memblocks.

Once I was but the learner,
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EdzUp
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Posted: 13th May 2003 21:30
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check out www.edzup.co.uk it contains a DB 1.13 version of Star Flight 2000 (there is an exe there if you dont have DB1.13), it DOESNT compile under DBPro . It should give you an idea of what is possible

-EdzUp
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NickIgoe
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Posted: 13th May 2003 22:36
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We almost made an elite game but we got a bit fed up with the idea about half way through, Though the models for the game are available to download from our site. I hope you do make the game as I still have fond memories of it, And remember being very disapointed by the follow up game Frontiers.



[/href]www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thane/banshee/

Nick Igoe
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NickIgoe
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Posted: 13th May 2003 22:37
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Sh*t that should have been

[href]http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thane/banshee/

Nick Igoe
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Zed
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Posted: 13th May 2003 22:45
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I started an ELITE type game some time ago in DB1. I'm porting it accross to DBPro but the free flight commands don't work correctly yet so progress is slow!

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 13th May 2003 23:00
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You can make the sky sphere follow player one. In space, trhe sense of scale is so large that a static sky sphere would be jyst rediculous Elite would be perfectly possible to recreate with gorgeous graphics in DBPro. Gotta love ghosted plains

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
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TriTon
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Posted: 14th May 2003 10:20
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May at someone is already sources or demo show on how many it really.

Basically interests a method of realization of a space.
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the architect
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Posted: 14th May 2003 12:55
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Elite is being made write now by somebody. Raven can tell you who.

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TriTon
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Posted: 14th May 2003 13:09
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to: the architect

And where it is possible to look at it???
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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 14th May 2003 13:21
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yes i heard Elite 4 been in production for ages - i bet it'll be oh so cool
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Darkheart
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Posted: 14th May 2003 13:29
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You might want to talk to Edzup, he did a multiplayer Elite game a while ago:

http://www.blitzcoder.com/cgi-bin/showcase/showcase_showentry.pl?id=EdzUp12212001162200&comments=no

He was more into creating a remake of the classic rather than a nextgen thing but it's very good.

Darkheart

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Van B
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Posted: 14th May 2003 15:41
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I have a demo with a ship, trail effect, code textured skysphere, some planets etc - in DBClassic though - your welcome to it if you have classic, can't remember it working in DBPro, I'll have a look tonight, see if I can't get it working.

I did put the skysphere at the player position and use the black fog effect, it works quite well - you don't really notice the stars, sorta subdued - which is a good thing, they should'nt be the focal point. If I remember rightly, I even had a planet texturing thingy, where each planet was a different colour but using the same texture.


Van-B

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madbilly
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Posted: 14th May 2003 16:58
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Hey all,

Myself and my bro are working on an Elite-tribute in DBPro. The trickiest thing is not the graphics engine, or any of the free flight stuff - it is replicating the exact random generation system used to create the galaxies, planets, etc. which basically IS the Elite universe.

However, we're giving it a go!

In respect to EdZup's Starflight 2000, I specifically asked him to compile the EXE he has on his website, BUT it runs so slowly on my machine (AMD 1800+, Geforce3 Ti200, nuff said) that it is unplayable. However, he doesn't program in DB anymore, so perhaps we shouldn't be talking about it... hehe

There's loads of versions of Elite being made using all ttypes of languages and for all sorts of platforms. More often than not, it is a labour of love, where the people writing them want to make the version of Elite that THEY always wanted to play. Other people's opinions are really secondary.

But by all means GO FOR IT - it'd be great to see what someone else comes up with using the same resources.

Cheers,

madbilly
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 14th May 2003 19:55
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I tried Starflight 2000 in it's early stages and at that time the project wasn't showing much promise, however that was a long time a go. A better example has to be Star Wraith, although not really Elite it does show what can be done in a space combat engine.

http://www.starwraith.com

Pneumatic Dryll
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th May 2003 20:02
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My Elite type game is called First World! but it's going to be in DB not DBPro. You can find it on Beta announcements.The thing is I keep doing other projects inbetween. But it'll get finished one day....lol
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Van B
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Posted: 14th May 2003 21:51
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Fixed my spaceship for DBPro, check it out:

http://www.realgametools.net/forums/attachments/Ship_Engine_Demo.zip


Van-B

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EdzUp
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Posted: 14th May 2003 22:22
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Quote: "
In respect to EdZup's Starflight 2000, I specifically asked him to compile the EXE he has on his website, BUT it runs so slowly on my machine (AMD 1800+, Geforce3 Ti200, nuff said) that it is unplayable. However, he doesn't program in DB anymore, so perhaps we shouldn't be talking about it... hehe
"


Who says I dont code in DB anymore? I wouldnt have bought DBPro if I didnt intend to use it at some point . ATM I am tied up whacking Hunted together but when that is complete I will move onto other projects that are planned.

-EdzUp
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Scorpyo
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Posted: 15th May 2003 00:08
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Elite 4....

It seems they have been toying with other stuff so far...

http://www.frontier.co.uk/

By the way, the animation demostration looks cool..especially in the bare bones version..

Makes me think bones/IK could be much better than mesh deform..
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madbilly
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Posted: 15th May 2003 02:32
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hehe, Sorry Ed!

That's just the impression I got from your reasons for using something else to write Elite Multiplayer with.
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TriTon
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Posted: 15th May 2003 10:52
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Thank for code!!!

Only do not consider me too impudent, but whether it is impossible to make a background back as in "FREELANCER"???
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EdzUp
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Posted: 15th May 2003 11:40
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madbilly: the reason I used Blitz3d over DB to code Elite Multiplayer in was that Blitz3d had the networking commands in, at the time DB didnt have any of them in (even now they seem to be a bit here there and everywhere).

What wrong with a uniform command structure like:

value=CAN START IPX NETWORK()
value=CAN START TCPIP NETWORK()
value=CAN START SERIAL NETWORK()
value=CAN START PARALLEL NETWORK()

and:
SEND NETWORK MESSAGE Id, Message$

finally:
CLOSE NETWORK value

Its much simpler than it is now.

-EdzUp
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Van B
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Posted: 15th May 2003 12:31
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No worries Triton - I'm a bit busy right now, but I will be making it so the planets orbit and they can have moons orbit etc - I'll look into better looking backgrounds too. You could have a go yourself, just load up the stars image and add some detail to see how it looks - I'd most likely use another skysphere with detail on it.

Edzup, I think the DBPro multiplayer commands are complicated, Asheron posted a nice working example on RGT, which made it more understandable. A huge online Elite style game would be great - imagine clans controlling ships together, different players controlling different guns, fighters that can dock with motherships etc - that would be very cool. Are you planning on expanding on your Elite project?


Van-B

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EdzUp
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Posted: 15th May 2003 21:43
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Quote: "A huge online Elite style game would be great - imagine clans controlling ships together, different players controlling different guns, fighters that can dock with motherships etc - that would be very cool. Are you planning on expanding on your Elite project?"


ATM im working through Hunted (which is coming on well now ). After that I might give DBPro networking a whirl and see how it works, probably make a networking include file with how I think the command set should work . If this goes well and DBPro is fast enough I will do a LAN speed test (head to head with Blitz UDP) then if thats passed I will start coding Elite Multiplayer possibly in DBPro (again this seriously depends on speed tests but if its fast enough then I cant see a problem).

The original version of Elite Multiplayer (coded in Blitz3d) had the cargo system, hyperspacing around, jumpdrive, scooping and ship/equipment purchases. It also allowed you to fly one of the elusive Thargoid ships (instead of missles it had Thargons ).

-EdzUp
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the architect
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Posted: 16th May 2003 13:38
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Ask Raven he originally game me the link. You could also try program announcements.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th May 2003 06:07
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about the only decent elite clone i've seen well ever has been within the DBpro community the past few months with a game called "Space at War" by Glennyboy.
i'd suggest you keep a good eye on that if you want to see a true clone arrive

that aside if you want a fixx from an elite style mmo game, then [shamelessplug]you can get Earth&Beyond at any good software retailer for around $45 which includes one month free access then a subscription of $10/month after that[/shamelessplug]

Architect if you had any other games in mind that i'd know the links to then lemme know cause to be honest i'm not sure what game your on about (^_^)

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Scorpyo
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Posted: 17th May 2003 10:55
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Raven, do you know if Earth&Beyond can be played in single player mode also?
thanks in advance
Scorpyo
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th May 2003 15:39
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its an Online Only game ... the idea was to beat Star Wars Galaxies, but it kinda ended up doing its own thing - probably about the only really original MMO online at the moment, cept Neocron but to be honest i think that game is a waste of time (bleck!)

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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The Darthster
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Posted: 17th May 2003 16:59
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I put together a quick demo last night containing the Sun, Earth, Moon and Mars, with a skysphere, however it's completely out of scale. What size would planets be, do you think? I made the Earth a sphere 20,000 units across, but that's really small compared to some models. However, using my depth illusion you can set the camera range to 7,000 yet still see the Earth from about 5,000,000 units away, at which distance it's only about a pixel wide. The tricky part is actually turning the planet into a terrain when you're close enough.

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Zed
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Posted: 17th May 2003 21:27
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Astro Trader has user and AI driven ships docking with space stations and other larger (mother if you like) ships. Hyperspacing works although DBP bugs prevent the hyperspace effect working.
I'm working on trading but I doubt I'll bother with multi-player.
It also has the Elite style radar working.

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Mikko
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Posted: 17th May 2003 23:35
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I did little experiment with Elite also with db1

http://koti.mbnet.fi/ketonen/db/elite/elite.htm

I would continue it if I just could make the radar.

I someone can make Elite-radar, please share the information

Mikko
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th May 2003 08:20
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the elite radar is a pretty simple affair

first you want to create the graphics (how it upto you)
after that you think up how far the radar will go, (elite2 it was 20km or somethnig like that)

if you take it as gold that the radar is 1/2 as high as it is wide (for that 3D effect) ... you can then assume that 20km = radius

xmultiplyer=20/shortradius
zmultiplyer=20/longradius
ymultiplyer=20/shortradius

you then get the int( ) of the XZ values and multiply them, and you have the pixel position on the actual radar from the 0,0,0 point

from that you then draw a line ymultiplyer from the XZ radar point, then as the end of that you put the ship dot
if i get time later i'll do some code to help you out, but you should be able to figure it out from that.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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EdzUp
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Posted: 18th May 2003 12:17
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Raven your assumption takes it as red that the ship remains level, the main problem with coding an 'Elite' radar is the radar works like the ship is a always at 0,0,0 and everything else rotates around instead.

The old version of Elite Multiplayer has a radar coded in Blitz3d by Timo Suoranta who is current coding glElite. Its thanks to him that it has a radar at all because I had no idea of how to go about it

-EdzUp
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EdzUp
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Posted: 18th May 2003 12:20
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If anyone knows if any DBPro Equivalent to Blitz's TFormedX, TFormedY, TFormedZ I would be interested.

-EdzUp
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Mikko
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Posted: 18th May 2003 13:26
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Sorry Raven , but thats not Elite-radar

Radar(dots) should pitch/roll with the players ship.


Radar you described has world cordinates.

Elite-radar has players ship coordinates.


Mikko
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Mikko
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Posted: 18th May 2003 13:48
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I once asked this and uwdesign almost solved it.
but it actually did not work.

http://www.realgametools.net/forums/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=7786;start=0

btw. I donated x-d
And still I will send 5€ to anyone ,who makes
working solution for this.
It has to be function which can be used in any
time in a program

Mikko
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TriTon
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Posted: 19th May 2003 13:29
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PEOPLE!!!

May give a code???
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th May 2003 18:00 Edited at: 19th May 2003 18:02
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well then you just do a CosSin on the value based on the distance and rotation of your ship - not really a biggie and is quite simple.
that aside you could always just use the ship as the focal point and calculate the current targets positions using your ships as the Origin very similar to the Cat-Mouse Radar, then all you'd need is very basic Trig.

there are a good few ways to achieve it and it just means taking a slightly thought through approach. Remember it is just basic3d techniques that most of you don't actually know becuase DarkBasic/Blitz3D have spoilt you with doing these calculations for you.

you could just use the NewXValue/NewZValue/Etc.. for the new position based on the ships movement, rotation is the angle you put in and the movement is how far you+the opposite ship has moved in that direction.
no biggie really

if i said Eluar rotation that might help some others figure out exactly howto do it.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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TriTon
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Help me plz!!!

Prompt, where my mistake...
Why at the certain moments the chamber does not obey management and instead of forward goes sideways, and instead of aside rises upwards????
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TriTon
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Posted: 20th May 2003 10:29
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set display mode 1024,768,16
sync on : sync rate 30
autocam on
load image "night.jpg",2
cls
hide mouse
sync
make camera 1
set camera range 1,10,15000
backdrop on
color backdrop 1,0
make object sphere 2,10000,50,50
texture object 2,2
set object cull 2,0
set object light 2,0
position camera 1,200,0,0
point camera 1,0,0,0
do
if leftkey()=1 then roll camera left 1,0.1
if rightkey()=1 then roll camera right 1,0.1
if upkey()=1 then pitch camera up 1,0.1
if downkey()=1 then pitch camera down 1,0.1
if shiftkey()=1 then speed#=speed#+1
if controlkey()=1 then speed#=speed#-1
if speed#<1 then speed#=1
if speed#>50 then speed#=50
sp#=speed#/50
move camera 1,sp#





sync
loop
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Zed
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The way I do it is to generate an orientation matrix for the player ship (forward vector,right vector & up vector). If then subtract the players location from that of the other ships and multiply the resulting coordinates by the orientation matrix, you transform the other ships positions into player coordinates rather than world coordinates.

I have an old version of my prog you can download and see it working here: http://www.andymitchell.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/basic/astro_trader.zip

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Mikko
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Posted: 20th May 2003 23:44
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Zed,

If your solution is working while player ship is at any orientation as
it seems to do,
could you make function to convert world x,y,x to local x,y,z ?
Please. My offer stands.

Mikko
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the architect
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Posted: 21st May 2003 00:57
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Architect
Someone gave me a link a few weeks back and Im sure it was you. I must have been mistaken!

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TriTon
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Posted: 21st May 2003 10:27
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And how to make management of the ship from a mouse, as in FREELANCER???
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