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Ok, I really dont want to start any kind of flame fest but I was looking at 3D game studio and was wondering if some of the features in it were ever going to be added to DBPro?

Heres some features I saw, will these be added?

*Multizone/multiserver support for massive online multiplayer games
*3D sound sources with Doppler effect
*Physics subsystem supports gravity, mass, damping, elasticity, friction, and hinge, ball, wheel, and slider joints
*Polygon level collision detection for terrain and 3D objects
*Programmable particle and beam generators --- I know particles are in but what are beam generators they sound interesting.
*Huge outdoor levels with deformable heightmap terrain --- However I heard DBPro was revamping their terrains system so I guess this is already being taken care of
*Geometric LOD and trilinear mip mapping

I also saw some screens shots on their page of games that look incredibly good how come I've never seen fantastic lookin DBPro shots? Just a question, not meant to flame.

Already in, just not in a point and click fashion - code it you have the commands.


I'm too dumb to know what doppler effect is for sure, do you meen repositioning of sound samples whilst it is playing? That's in.


DBPro aint point and click, it's a coding language. This is already in, in a relative context.


Already in.


Dunno what beam generators are, can't answer that.


Already in sort of, with matrixes yes - but a LOD terrain with multi-texturing would be preffered and was promised.


<--- neanderthol, *boggle* what is geometric LOD? In a DBPro context?

"I also saw some screens shots on their page of games that look incredibly good how come I've never seen fantastic lookin DBPro shots?"

Game Studio has been around for years so they've had time to build up a portfolio like that - bear in mind that most of the games they showcase are made with the top-range version of the software. This costs $899 - you don't spend that kind of money on something unless you're (a) very good! and (b) want to make something commercial from it. Its C style language makes it extremely powerful, but complex at the same time. You can get the more dumbed-down versions but loose features with it and gain things like watermarks on-top of your games, etc. Get their trial version and check it out (I think they have one), it might be right up your street.

Cheers,

Rich

Are you sure PneumaticDrill?

>> *Multizone/multiserver support for massive online multiplayer games

NOT already in. You need to use the TCP-IP/UDT DLL plugin. DirectPlay has a 512 player limit. DBP uses a client-server setup.

*Physics subsystem supports gravity, mass, damping, elasticity, friction, and hinge, ball, wheel, and slider joints

>> Not in, maybe in the distance future. Anyhow, only A6 Professional has a proper system, it isn't in all the standard (DBPro priced) versions.

"*Polygon level collision detection for terrain and 3D objects"

>> NOT IN PROPERLY, currently only poly-to-sphere collision, not poly-to-poly.

"*Programmable particle and beam generators --- I know particles are in but what are beam generators they sound interesting."

>> Good idea, more flexible particle commands as well

"*Huge outdoor levels with deformable heightmap terrain --- However I heard DBPro was revamping their terrains system so I guess this is already being taken care of"

True.

"*Geometric LOD and trilinear mip mapping"

>> The first feature is already in with terrains, but not flexible in any way. As for the second option, nice idea, but it really makes little visual impact.


"I also saw some screens shots on their page of games that look incredibly good how come I've never seen fantastic lookin DBPro shots? Just a question, not meant to flame"

Most of those screenies are made with the professional edition costing over $900 or the commercial edition costing over $400. If people are going to spend that much on the software then they are more likely to be working with it 24/7 (we do it in our free time), and have teams of artisits and so on to help.

[Edit: Rich posted the above point while I was still typing. Sorry]

Ok well I started typing a load of text out, but basically my point in all of them was that if a certain feature isn't supported directly, all the above features are possible to create in DBPro, in some cases requiring external dlls. The only thing that is not realistically possible at a decent speed as far as I can see is more than 512 players at once... Whilst I don't like VS posts, like Rich I would urge you to download the dmoe of Gamestudio to see if you like it, its a love or hate thing, personally I much prefer working in DBPro, others may prefer GameStudio. The main basic difference is do you wanna code in BASIC or C?

To be honest, the actual screenies are very impressive for A5/6, but apart from the new A6 Physics demo, all the other demos I have downloaded have been terrible, as if they were made in DarkBASIC Classic version 1.00

Hi all,

I just want to point out a few important facts here about 3D GameStudio as I am a beta-tester for them as well as I own a copy of
the Commercial Edition of A5 soon to upgrade to Commercial Edition of
A6! Please read the following:


PneumaticDryll Wrote:




Let me try to clear this up a bit! Yes 3D GameStudio does have template files for people that don't want to do any coding to make a game! However though... If you go and re-visit their website again and
read through their introduction page very carfully! You will also read that for more ambitious people out there, There is also C-Script which allows you to code your own games!! There is also an DLL SDK for writing your own DLL files to implement into the engine for your own custom commands and/or engine effects or what have you...

Goto their website to read this for yourselfs..
http://www.conitec.net/a4info.htm



Beam generators are basically close to the same thing as particles are except that they have a sort-of' smere-effect that causes a trail behind them in 3d space... If you want to see this in action download this demo: http://www.ploing2.de/Download/Setup_Ploing2SW.exe

Or this one: http://www.conitecserver.com/conflict.exe





Geometric LOD basically means very complex models with (L)ots-(o)f-(D)etail..


rich Administrator DBPro Team Wrote:



This is true.. But alot of these screenshots aren't that old!



Most of the games in the screenshots section of their website aren't all made from the Professional edition.. there is some of them also made with their commercial edition as well! And there is other people out there that has spent that kind of money and not been that good at it.. But was wanting the top version so they will have all they need when they get to that point in time! And also.. you can make a commercial game without having to have the professional editon.. there are alot of shareware titles on their links page that are commercial quality games that where made with the commercial editon or below.. Go and check it out on their links page!




It's C-script language is very powerful indeed!! But it isn't as complex as it may seem.. Alot of 3D GameStudio's problem in learning there C-Script Language was poor documentation of their manual which they have made vast improvments on it! C-Script is very easy to learn.. If you can program in DarkBasic or DarkBasic Pro.. You can easly code in 3D GameStudio's C-Script Language too!




That's true on the lesser features and such.. And the only editions that doesn't have a watermark are the commercial & professional edition.. But that's a marketing thing there.. that's how they get you to purchase there better editions for what you want to do! They best choice would be to purchase either the commercial or professional editions if you intend to really make something of it!

Rob K Wrote:




Well... there is alot of people that has purchased 3D GameStudio and are now working full time making great games with it.. this is very true! However though.. there are alot, alot, alot of other people on the 3D GameStudio forums that also work in teams too to get there games done! Im' one of them!!! There are plenty of 3D GameStudio people that need teams as well.. Not just the people here on the DarkBasic Pro forums...


Kangaroo2 Wrote:



You're right there...!




I like them both! Both of them are very powerful packages and they both have their advantages and dis-advantages too!



It doesn't bother me because I can code in both languages!!


Rob K Wrote:



You got to consider this too on that.. A game is only as good as it's developers are!! You can take any development package and get real good at it and make something really great with it if you put your mind to it! There is some bad demo's o n their website.. I will agree with you there.. However though.. There is also some really good one's too! Go and check them out again before you condem such a great development system!

As a special note on this subject at hand here.. I personaly enjoy both DarkBasic Professional & 3D GameStudio commercial.. They both have like I said earlier, they both have there advantages & dis-advantages.. It really just depends upon the individual and what they are comfertable with.. They both can produce fantastic results.. Let's not make this into a dramatic debate on which one's the better.. They both are GREAT in my opinion!

Best Regards,

DoctorWho_3DGX
http://3dgx.tripod.com

3D Game Studio SUCKS!
I bought and paid for the Com version ($200.00) and they took it away from me because someone said I was using a warez version.
After I complain and sent them my order #, they realized they screwwed up, but they still would not give me back my license to use the program!

DBP lacks in alot of ways to A6, BUT givin time and it will pick up great featurs, I am sure of it!

I was told that DBP was coming out with a world editor, what ever happen to that?

A feature that needs to be added to the DBP site is a free submission and download of code and other stuff!

Hmmm.... actually... before I bought DBpro, I had been deciding whether to choose DBpro or 3D Game Studio. But eventually, I chose DBpro. Although a lot of people feel like Game Studio is a lot more advance than DBpro, but here is some reason why I chose DBpro over 3D Game Studio.

- DBpro is very cheap! It's 10 times cheaper than 3DGS Enterprise version. You won't want to choose the 3DGS personal edition if you are making a network multiplayer game, as it only support multiplayer in a split screen mode. That's sucks! What year is it now?

- DBpro is more flexible. To me, DBpro is more like a general game programming language. 3DGS is more like a RAD tool for building FPS, or third person shooter kinda games. 3DGS might be easier when comes to building games on that type, as it provides a lot of tools and prewritten code that allows you to just simply point and click. But for me, I prefer flexibility in DBpro, where I can implement anything (almost anything) that I can think off if I had the knowledge or algorithms for it.

- DBpro third party DLL support adds extra flexibility to DBpro. 3DGS can't do this.

- 3DGS had a built-in modelling tools. For some people, they might think it is an added feature, as you can save money on those 3D modelling package. For me, I don't really like it. The modelling tools is not as powerful as others which are a sole modelling software. My opinions are, a good game programming tools or game engine should emphasize more on the engine itself, and allows the flexibility like importing models from other modelling software. So the powerful-ness of the exporter is EXTREMLY important! Although currently DBpro only supports .X (as of patch 4), but I am looking forward into their DBO format, where it can supports all the feature in DBpro, e.g. bump mapping, rainbow shading, etc. And also hoped that DBS will create DBO exporter plugins for most commercial modelling software.

Of course, there is a few thing in DBpro which I am quite dissapointed:

- Still VERY buggy. Sometimes, I spent the whole week debugging my game, and eventually realized that it is a bug in DBpro. DANG! This really kills me! But I am willing to give more time to DBS to fix those bugs (hopefully it won't take forever). At the meantime, I try to master the tricks in DBpro. So when it gets matured, I am ready to rock!

- The performance is not as fast as I expect. The performance might be slower than 3DGS. But I hoped DBS will optimize the game engine as time goes to make it more powerful.

- It's a BASIC language. For me, as I came from a C/C++ background. I like the coding style of C/C++. But that's my personal taste. After spending 3 months on DBpro, I am starting to get used to it. But I would prefer if DBS could make the language more powerful, e.g. passing TYPE as parameters, pass by reference, etc. I know it shouldn't be too complicated such C/C++, but I will be more than happy if DBpro can support all the basic language features in the Microsoft QuickBasic or even Visual Basic.


Hmm... I am there is more I wanna share with you, but I am running out of time. I will follow up when I think of more!

Good luck!

i like this (L)ots (O)f (D)etail ... hahaa, gave me a bloody good chuckle that

Level of Details is what it stands for, and it in Terrain form (which is currentl buggy for DBpro) it basically mean that you start off with a a Terrain that is say 16x16 Squares

now based on where the camera is and how close, from the Centre of the camera point those squares will be divided by Square value...
so a basic example would mean you'd have you're 16x16 grid, and then the centre 4 squares (2x2) would be divided to become 8 Squares and dot producted over the original values.
This makes terrain alot more smooth close up when you need to see the detail but when you get far away it'll go back to its original state of only a few squares
the idea is to keep an optimum amount of polygons onscreen at once, so that you niether have to many to bog down the graphics card or too little to make it look all pointy (like DB Matrices)

that aside the Beam Particles appear to be something the 3DGM team have made up to sound fancy, but all they appear to be are Motion Blur Particles ... nothing special really, but something that would illude anyone who uses DB's built in particle system

as for the polygon-polygon collision, even DarkBasic has that ... but its is SLOW AS A SLUG ON A COLD DAY, and trust me that ain't an understatement. I believe Mnemonix (or however the heck you spell his name) has made a DLL for this.
as for the physics, the original statement that you have to program it is correct... however there have been some more than sucessful experiment will implimenting Karma/Mathsengine into DarkBasic Professional with a TPC over the recent weeks.
But as Karma costs $50k per title i doubt we'll be seeing a release of it anytime soon

as for the MultiZone servers, you can achieve that quite easily - actually setting up a computer to handle more than 256 connections at once is just pure sucide, not just for you but any home use connected - especially Dialup users.
but for not best to let those who think it impossible keep thinking that ... because there are just so many way i can think of to get around the 256 limitation it would be beyond a joke that some people can't even think of one without resorting to external measures.

OneTouch Wrote:




Dam dude!!!! That really sucks big time!!
Im' sorry to hear about your misfortune and such, But you shouldn't really condem a product just because the people screwed up on that situation you was currently in... However though.. After the company realized that they made a mistake and did the wrong thing like your telling me they did.. They should of at least either gave you back your license to use the software.. or give you back your money.. So what did finally happen with that? Did they return your money? Just curious though!!!





Sure it will... That's a normal thing in the ever going development of any product!! DarkBasic Pro has GREAT potential indeed!! It will indeed evolve into a better & bader development package..





Yeah!!! What ever did happen to that rumor??? That's where 3D GameStudio shine's above DarkBasic Pro.. 3D GameStudio offers with it's package a: Level Editor, Model Editor, Script Editor...
It woould be nice in time if the DarkBasic development team would include a Level Editor in with their development package..



Bulleyes Wrote:




Please read my earlier message above to clairify this quote here..
3DGS is not just a point & click together game making tool.. You can also write your own code in it's C-Script Language too! You can make any game that comes to mind with 3D GameStudio as well!! Give the development package a little more credit than that





You're very wrong about 3DGS there buddy!!!
Appearently you didn't read my earlier post in this topic here. You also appearently didn't read the 3D GameStudio website very well either!!!
3DGS has a SDK for DLL creation for adding new features and/or engine effects or added functions to their C-Scripting Language.. 3DGS also has plug-in capabilities just like DarkBasic Pro does!! Actually Speaking though!! 3DGS had it way before DarkBasic Pro did!! Check your history on this before you start putting down a development package ok?!


Raven Wrote:



I realized what the true meaning was raven.. that's just the way I pronouce it! It still means the same thing!!
The Level-of-Detail.. or the way I like it.. Lots-of-Detail doesn't just pertain to only terrains only! There is also LOD models as well!
The process of how LOD work's goes the same way for model's & terrains alike!




Not so! Beam Particles are used in other 3D Engines as well. Check this webpage out to see what other 3D Engine's that use them as well.
There's a total of 4 other 3D Engines that utilize the Beam generator particles!

http://www.conitec.net/a4faq.htm




Motion Blur particles are correct Raven! However though you can use them for some interesting effects in games. The only reason the DarkBasic people would be illuded is because this feature isn't currently available in DarkBasic Pro..


Best Regards,

DoctorWho_3DGX
3DGX Entertainment, Inc.
http://3dgx.tripod.com

"as for the polygon-polygon collision, even DarkBasic has that ... but its is SLOW AS A SLUG ON A COLD DAY, and trust me that ain't an understatement. I believe Mnemonix (or however the heck you spell his name) has made a DLL for this."

No it doesn't. DBPro has only got polygon-to-sphere collision, this isn't coming from me, it is coming from Lee himself, who said he is still working on proper poly to poly collision.

If you use SET OBJECT COLLISION TO POLYGONS, when using OBJECT HIT() only the first object will use polygon collision, the second will use a sphere of the same size as the second object.

"Motion Blur particles are correct Raven! However though you can use them for some interesting effects in games. The only reason the DarkBasic people would be illuded is because this feature isn't currently available in DarkBasic Pro.."

As with most half-decent game-making tools, you CAN always code this yourself, not easy mind you. This is harder as DBP has crap transparency effects, the only way I could do it properly was to use Kevil's transparency and opacity mapping code (excellent stuff btw.). The Beam Generator is only in the commercial edition anyway.

The biggest problem with 3DGM is the fact that an awful lot of the best features are only found in the top-end editions, according to their FAQ page.

At the end of the day, it comes down to one basic question: Do you want to program in BASIC or C, and how much do you want to spend?

If I bought the DBP-priced edition I would not get the following features which ARE in DBP:

- Dynamic Shadows
- Mirrors
- Render onto Texture (DBP DOES have this, contrary to the A6 FAQ)
- Client/Server Networking / Multiplayer
- Shaders [Not in any of the A6 editions, not that DBP apps use these much anyway]
- Bones Animation

As for the other tools:

>> Level Editor: Many freeware ones available out there for DBP
>> Model Editor: MilkShape costs about $20

Personally though, I hated the interface, which was the nicest part of DBP. Still you can't argue that 3DGS has had a good deal of commercial releases.

At the end of the day, the language is not really the limit any more, but rather, we are. We only have so much free time and only so many skills. An awful lot of Blitzers have run into this barrier, and I'm sure some of us will too.

Just one thing i'd like to clear up. The top MMORG is still Everquest, and EQ supports many players connected at once, typically 2,500 players on each server at any one time.

However each server is actually a stack of over 50 machines all running on average 50 players each.

Anyone who tries to connect 512 players to a single machine is going to learn what bandwidth limitations are in the cruellest possible way.

On another point I knew what level of detail was, I just didn't understand the context of "geometric LOD" - are there many types of LOD algorythm or something ?

hey umm pneumatic the top mmorpg is Lineage not everquest with over 4 million active players

Quest3D beats Game Studio big time as to graphic quality (check out their demo if you don ' t believe it.)

If you are an overnight/weekend coder you need a lifetime to learn propietory languages of both above , and in your second life then you may sart coding games.

DBPro is the best option so far for fast , good quality productions at VERY convenient price.

This doesn 't excuse the creators for not having given from the beginning (and yet) what the box claims (advanced terrains, basic sliding collisions [at decent frame rate expense], bug free matrix texturing, bug free [and possibly tweakable] transparency , etc..etc..AND a better manual with a code example and demo for EACH command .

Nevertheless, thing are slowly coming in and being put in place.

Let's keep our fingers crossed

P.S. None of the mentioned products ( and maybe some others )sucks..
Respect the HUGE work that stands behind them

if what you say is true then what would the point in setting both to polygon collision be - there isn't any from what i can see.
i've never used the builtin collision because its just far to damnd slow ... but that would just defeat the point from what i can tell.

as for what i said, yes LOD does pertain to all areas of 3D ... however for models there are 3ways to go about LOD - Engine Polygon Generation, PreCompiled Models (good open example Q3:A) and Section Generated LOD (something ya'll all see in alot of up comming titles like Halo2) - however that aside, terrain LOD and Model LOD are oftenly done in different mannors because terrains oftenly are texture PER Quad... which means the UV Mapping Coords are always the same, this means that you can focus on just the LOD routines rather than the entire models setup. It also means that alot of new cards have hardware support for this under OpenGL and DirectX.

as for the blur particles... other engines have it but from that list i can tell you the one that are believed to be Beam Particles are called TRAIL Particles and actually coded completely different.
and the only reason it would illude people in Pro using the BUILTIN particle is because to achieve the effect you'd require the positional data from each of the particles, which right now i believe there isn't a way to get this data.
however the builtin particles of DBpro aren't anything spectacular in the first place anyways - i mean they're good for newbies, but if you want to do anything serious with them.
Even still i reckon one or two of the more resourceful Pro coders could probably figure a way to adapt the particle function to achieve their goal (SW seems to have achieved something similar for his new game)

and the networks... Pneu thats exactly how you get around the limitations of connections - personally i'd love to see a single computer handle 4,000 user connections at once.
Messenger & IRC Servers generally only handel 256 at once, and they're designed specifically for low speed large burst transfers.

Hey Rob K, what is "Kevil's transparency and opacity mapping code" all about? It looks like cool module to me. Can you explain more about it? Thanks!

THE PEOPLE BEHIND 3DGS SUCKS!

I actually like the engine and would still be using it if it was not for the problem.
No they never repaid me or let me have the license back.
I just e-maild them the other day and asked if I could buy A6 Pro, and they said no. I like the idea of having Team Licenses. Cheaper that way!

They are BUTT HEADS!
Don't waste your money on them. Study DBP and wait -ahhh- for the updates!

What are some good free world editors to use with DBP?

OneTouch Wrote:



Well... I must agree with you that they can sometimes be kind'a difficult at times. It took me almost 4 months of bugging them before they actually posted a link to my website from their link's page..




Yeah.. that is kind'a messed up there on that ordeal you mentioned above in an earlier post.. I feel ya' man..




That's BullShit!!!! I would email the heck out of them and bug them to death untill they did one or the other!!! I don't care what anybody say's on this.. You don't take a man's money and give him nothing in return!! I wish you the best on this problem man!!




Why don't you go under a different name or something so you can buy A6.. They will never know who you are.. Or have someone else purchase it for you instead??? That is if you really want to get the A6 engine.
Just because the people are bad towards you.. Please don't put down 3D GameStudio because it is really a good development package too!




Yeah.. If you can go that route.. It would be better on the pocket book!




Like I said! Just because they are being this way towards you! Please don't discourage or downgrade the development package as it is a very good one for games development.. If I was you, I would think my way out of your certain situation your in.. Get someone else to purchase 3D GameStudio for you.. They will never know that you're really getting the package anyway!! Just my suggestion though!




I think the only one they really have to offer right now is Cartography Shop.. I think?!?! You could use other world editors like: Qoole 2.50, Quark, QERadiant, Q3Radiant, WorldCraft, thred, QED, And I know there is others as well.. You will have to look them up.. If you can't find anything on the net.. Then send me an email at:

[email protected]

And I will get you one for your needs, ok?!

Also too... If you happen to have Yahoo messenger.. Then enter in
this yahoo I.D. " doctorwho_3dgx " that's my yahoo I.D. catch me online, and I will send it to you.. ok?