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The prospect of animation always seems so cool, and it always falls apart in my hands. I model in Wings 3D, and attempt animations in milkshape, BUT... I've discovered that I can pseudo-pose animations in Wings for a more sterile render. I preform the operations with skeletons in Milkshape, and the problem is exactly the same. I'm posting these images to illustrate my run-downs. I figure that the problem isn't Milkshape, or Wings, but the way I am constructing the model -- I'm missing out on some understanding of joints. My biggest problem is with ball and socket-joints.


Here's my latest untextured fantasy char:

Front view... mysterious, hooded warrior.


Back View (That's not a dress, it's a kilt... sicko)

The only way I foresaw myself animating that cloak was to attach bones to segments of vertixes and move them according to leg movement.


This utterly silly pose illustrates some of my problems

I lost the screenshot of the knee-bent, but when that knee is bent, the leg looks totally messed up (like the knee got bitten off).


Here's a close-up of the major problem area:

The crotch is dissapearing, and the cloak's robe is getting some freaky geometry.


And the arm will NOT POSE properly extended in the air:

Because of the breakplate's shoulder-caps, this is too difficult. I made the arms seperate meshes because of the fact that they are BALL AND SOCKET JOINTS (motor-movement speaking). As you can see, the arm is terribly stapled on the side. The shoulder pad completely out of what with faces that have lost their geometric soundness because of the x-axis rotation.

Here's a wireframe of the top and shoulders:

Even without the breastplate, the cloak itself is making joints difficult to define. I guess I can't get the shoulders to move properly. I'm hoping that you can identify a number of flaws with the geometry taht would go against the animation process.

My question is... what have you veterans done to get jump through the hoops with animations head-aches? What are the strategies? Any suggestions?

I don't help much saying that I have the same problems

SOMEONE NEEDS TO REPLY TO THIS THREAD

The flaw you have with your geometry is that there isn’t enough of it. you need more vertices around the joints. Your vertices look like thay are all over the place. You need to tidy them up so they are all aligned on the same plane. What program are you using? The easiest but most time consuming method of doing shoulders is to assign individual vertices to bones and pose them individually. The other methods are shape keys and IPO drivers in blender. It is also possible with constraints and by python scripts. What you are trying to acheve may become extremely complicated

Well, when modelling characters, you need to be thinking more about how it is going to deform when adding edges. If you model with edgeflow, all of the vertices and polys should 'flow' from major joints and features. I suggest looking for tutorials that are intended for subdivision models, as these should always have edge flow.
In addition, I would say that most joints need at least two edgeloops around them to allow for better deformation. The shoulders, for example could do with another ring around the shoulder joint, and you perhaps need to have more of the shoulder to be influenced by the bones.
As for the cloth, I imagine that it is very hard to work with, I've tried similar things before. Perhaps rigging it seperately from the leg, then adjusting the vertices manually
This is all assuming that your problem is in the model.
I suggest examining the lines of the vertices when your model is in whatever poses you see fit. Its very hard to see the issue when you have it in solid render.

True... I understand that there isn't enough geometry in the shoulders (for instance). But, no matter how much geometry I add, it's all going to move the same unless I start adding wierd-independent bones to other verts.

I was assuming from the beginning that I'd end up assigning bones to "patches" of verts on the cloth. His skeletal structure will look like an upside down tree by the time I'm done with the cloak's robe. Time consuming, sure... By the way, in order to animate that in Milkshape, I need to have the rest of the verts hidden so that I can scruitinize it properly... I'm going to have to make the robe a seperate mesh (ARGHH!) The cloth isn't my primary concern... it's these darn ball and socket joints (such as the shoulder, or the hip).

I think the shoulders, and hip joints are going to be the most painful to work with. However, I once tried to animate a knee strike, and the knee looks so terrible when it's bent beyond 70-80 degrees.

I just don't get it... no matter how complex your geometry will become, you will still get stretched faces on complex joints. These stretched faces are really nasty on ball and socket joints. I imagine that the only way to do it without terrible distortions is by seperate meshes (yeah, I know that's old school).

Nope, not true. If you add a few more edge-loops around the joints you'll see a difference. Bones use some pretty extensive maths to bend each vertex dependent on surrounding verticies, angle, position, bone size, bone strength, and any IK solvers.

Atleast this is the case with Softimage, Im not sure what program you're using, it may only have a very basic bone animating system.

He's using milkshape, so yep!

Perhaps, you should fork out for character fx, Pilsbury Dobok. This might make it easier for you, although Ive never used it, but it wont solve your underlying geometry issues.

Hmm... why would CharacterFX make the difference? It isn't that I'm not willing to part with 15 or so, but what makes it's bone system better? Is it something to do with weighted verts?

exactily corect. milcshapes animation system is to basic for what you are trying to do, it is onley rilly good for things like mecanical joints with pivot aroud some cind of pin.

if you are on a buget then blender has a good animation system. but it is verry complicated for a biginner, you would spend months lerning how to use it befor you create enething good. there are verry few tutorials on rigging in blendr, so basicley you haft to learn by tryal and error. like i am still doing!

like i sed befor sholders are usaly dun with driven shape keys or via a script

Alright... thanks... I'll consider your proposals.

I think python scripts are a thing for Blender only... and probably something that wouldn't be worth it, given my time budget.

I'd have to try a demo of CharFX to see if these weighted verts actually do what I think they do.