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Geek Culture / i have a cunning plan... and i'll call it C++

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th May 2003 07:39
Read This

this was posted in the VB thread, cept i think most will probably just be glazing over that now.
i think it's pretty amusing

however that said and done, to be honest i think even if it has started out as a joke DirectX and Microsoft Windows certainly has proven that it is hardly a joke anymore.
i just wonder if anyone at Microsoft has ever got wind of this?
Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Danmatsuma
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Posted: 15th May 2003 09:04
*lmao*, if that were true it would all make sense

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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 15th May 2003 11:05
I say we all go and learn VB!

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 15th May 2003 17:46
lol "It's funny cause its true"

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Ian T
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Posted: 15th May 2003 18:46
If only it were real

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th May 2003 20:00
i have a feeling that it is sorta true to an extent ... wouldn't mind getting ahold of the email addy of this guy and actually asking him personally

think about it, if it was true then no one in the world would want after spending years developing programs in C++ find out that it was just a joke that got outta hand - he says in it "C++ is really dieing out now" ... hehee thanks to Mircosoft its actually stronger than ever

well anyways i though it was quite amusing, if its not true then it would be a funny joke to send a serious programmer, if it is true then christ thats the best damnd practical joke in the world

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 15th May 2003 20:14
I have to learn VB sometime, or I'll be awful bored during work experience.

Why the hell'd you ask me for crying out loud!?!

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APEXnow
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Posted: 15th May 2003 20:31
Now that is absolute class!!!, no punn intended.

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Ian T
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Posted: 15th May 2003 21:19
If C++ is dying out, what are all the top games being coded in, eh

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th May 2003 22:06
Mouse back in '98 when the interveiw took place C++ was really getting alot of bad press... the whole deal with Microsofts Visual IDE being updated so much was to actually attrack developers to use it again - because it is probably the biggest bitch of a language to program with if you're trying to do that all in your head.

(makes me wonder what screw the Codewarrior boys have loose )

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andrew11
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Posted: 15th May 2003 23:42
I found his email:
bs@research.att.com

And his homepage:
http://www.research.att.com/~bs/homepage.html

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Ian T
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Posted: 16th May 2003 01:52
Yes, yes Raven, it was a joke

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Benjamin
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Posted: 16th May 2003 03:33 Edited at: 16th May 2003 03:36
ok

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Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 16th May 2003 04:45
it not a big a joke as C.net

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th May 2003 05:14
lmao... bs@at&t research (sorry but that is just amusing to em )
anywho just emailed so, i can know for real what the deal is

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Ian T
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Posted: 16th May 2003 05:38
You don't think he'll actually say it's true even if it is, do ya? If he does, it's more likely it isn't true; if he denies it, I'd say there's still a small possibility it's real.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th May 2003 05:44
you have a twisted mind mouse

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Ian T
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Posted: 16th May 2003 06:27


--Mouse

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 16th May 2003 07:20
Sounds like it was wrote by some angst-ridden VB coder, not able to come to terms with C++.

C++ is a great language, it's the APIs that ruin it.(WinAPI, DX etc...) But I'm ruining the fun...carry on slagging it off

aprilfan
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Posted: 16th May 2003 07:34
funny...tres drole!

I hate the C++ have to learn it though ... Wish Everything was done in BASIC or any of the many derivitives...yeah...

We could have handled that better.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th May 2003 08:50
APi's are really the whole point of C++ Ant so erm you mind explaining exactly how they ruin it?

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8truths
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Posted: 16th May 2003 09:11
Thank you for your appreciation of my original post.

The truth is, I never got the big deal with C++. It is a stupid and overly complicated language that does everything so tightly that nothing truly new will ever spring from it.

Honestly, as godless as it is to learn, you might as well skip the foreplay and code straight machine code.

Look at the sorry bastards who have tried to code AI in C++. Like anything as unique and beautiful as intelligence will ever spring from the rigid, Vulcan mind of C++!

C++ is the Third Reich of programming.

There is a sense that it's rigidity will overwhelm everything else. But in the end dumb Americans and suicidal Russian put the Nazis in their place -- history's dustbin.

BASIC is a lot like the Allies were during WWII . . . Sloppy and weak, but they were good people committed to defeating evil even if the devil is better trained and equipped.

BASIC IS THE WESTERN WAY!

Lazy, dumb, and capable of beating better systems only with mass production and delusional TV-induced faith.

A lot of people started learning German in the 30s. They were wrong, and so are C++ programmers.

Hopefully, C++ will soon join it's kin.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th May 2003 09:27
lol... well personally i do Ai in Assembly, but thats just me - you just can't get the speed you need out of anything else, and believe it or not intelligence needs more clear cut logical responses than most other parts of your programming so bad 8truths for a bad example

C++ is a good language, and i feel that you just don't get the original purpose of C++ at all. That said, it is overly complicated and fussy - but thats actually what i love about it. If you make a mistake you know you have, there is little room for error - unfortunately when you hit that small room, bugs appear ... and its a bugger to find them because you're used to C++ bitching at every single last little thing.

a friend of mine made a good analogy when i was wanting to learn C/C++ a good 7years ago, when i asked him the difference he simply said...
"C is like a guy, rugged and robust to the core. You can do almost anything in it without it raising an eyebrow. C++ is like a woman though, it is very demanding, needs you to use it just right for it to work... but the rewards far outweight all the niggles that she'll have with you."

i ended up learning a little C after that ... but i've come to realise over the past 2years that although C & C++ share the same syntax, they are completely different beasties under the hood.

but you know the best thing about both language though?
if you use them together, then you can achieve a pretty damn'd fantastic comprimise of software.

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AntonyW3
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Posted: 16th May 2003 15:13
Raven; Not all APIs... OpenGL/Allegro are examples of how it should be done. WinAPI on the other hand can only be the result of some post-nazi drive to raise western suicide levels higher than the birth-rate..in a slow bid to wipe out western civilization...

Probably...

AntonyW3
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Posted: 16th May 2003 15:14
You notice that I too made a german-like analogy(Before reading his one?) Coindence? Not bloody likely....

Hail... I don't know who hail.. Hail someone.(I've lost the plot...)

Dave J
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Posted: 16th May 2003 15:56 Edited at: 16th May 2003 16:01
Raven, did he ever reply? I'm interested in what he has to say lol.

Edit: Just found the real interview with IEEE Computers (dated June 98 rather then January 98):
http://www.research.att.com/~bs/ieee_interview.html

Turned out he took no part in the thing:

Quote: "C++ is the richest source of puns and jokes. That is no accident." For the past few months, a hoax interview between Stroustrup and Computer has been making the rounds in cyberspace. While we regret the incident, it offers us a welcome opportunity to have the father of C++ share his insights on Standard C++ and software development in general. We can also attest to his continued sense of proportion and humor-he suggests that the fictitious interview would have been a much funnier parody had he written it himself.
"


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
APEXnow
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Posted: 16th May 2003 16:27
C#. I've never used it but am I right to understand that it actually addresses the issue with C++ pointer management. Basically, I'm a C++ man. When I developed software with a firm that used C++ heavily, we used methods of development to prevent memory leaks like ensuring pointers were always initialized and cleared etc etc. C# uses references only now doesn't it? Like Java?

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th May 2003 21:52
yup i've just got a reply and its not true
infact his exact words were
Quote: "Putting unprofessional derogative falsehood in the mouth
of someone is not a joking matter"


i guess if he didn't see the funny side i kinda feel bad, one cause he doesn't have much of sense of humour ... but i see his point

as for Ant... WHAT THE FUDGE ARE YOU SMOKING MATE, that has gotta be bloody strong stuff - because OpenGL and Allegro are C libraries NOT C++ and if you think otherwise then tell me why a)they work with C and b)that you don't have to enum any class instances?
although i've posted this up as an amusing joke, don't think this is some chance to go around bashing a language you obviously dont' have a bloody scooby about.

at the end of the day if you don't like C++ thats cool that a personal choice, but there ain't no reason to go about doggin' on it.

yeah APEX, C# has been developed as a network language specifically for applications ... its emphasis has been on to really combine the simplicity of VB with the technical abilities of C++ and there are alot of Java traits in there as well.
mainly because it is there to replace both VB and Java++
it's certainly a great lil language too - personally i tend to work around memory leaks when they arrise, no special skill to it ... but then again i'm far from a pro C++ users

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8truths
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Posted: 16th May 2003 22:14
There is some debate over what part of that whole interview is a hoax (whether the interview was or whether C++ was).

I don't like C++.

Raven . . . For AI, I don't mean so much as game AI, but as in the real effort to mimic human intelligence.

My argument is that intelligence, in order to be created, requires a high tolerance for ambiguity.

That just does not exist in C++.

I remember an old article (I totally forget what the heck it was in; I was a young kid, and the need to file the article didn't strike me at the time) from about ten years ago that had a few futurists discussing Artificial Intelligence.

One of the guys (I think he was a sci-fi writer) said that if true intelligence ever comes out of programming, that it will be done with a simple to program language that has a high tolerance for ambiguity and errors.

Essentailly, true intelligence has to be able to co-exist with the stupidity and flaws of the world.

This is where I believe C++ falls badly short.

C++ is a highly corporate language, and carries with it a corporate mentality.

The biggest thing C++ succeeds at is causing a system to crap out before it's failures spread to other systems that access the same databases, networks, etc.

C++ is a very mean parent to the laziest group of kids around: programmers (OK, actually actors are . . . still).

For the most part, I believe the attraction to C++ reflects a human desire to make learning long and difficult. It is natural for a guild to protect -- often unconsciously -- its industry this way.

Otherwise, explain the popularity of other horrid-to-learn programs such as 3D Studio Max.

If everything were like Visual Basic, we'd have a world of sloppy artists instead of lockstepping programmers.

AntonyW3
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Posted: 16th May 2003 22:18
Pull your head out of your arse and then reply again. I said C++ was a *great* langauge. Quite clearly. I said the APIs let it down. I never cited Allegro/OpenGL as C++ Apis(Though all the tutorials I've used were explictly wrote in C++, Visual C++(Which I have/use) to be exact. So it would be an easy mistake(Assumption) to make) I just said they were how it should be done.

I can code in C++ quite well... Everything from Neural nets to full-screen demos and full 3D engines.(Using GL, which although being C, doesn't mean that code that uses has to be. I used class' and a host of C++ only features. (Inherientence(Sp?), over-loading and the like. ) (I've never used C to be honest. So I'm not sure what was a part of C originally and what is C++ only.)

Anything else Mr Assumie?

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th May 2003 22:25
but thats comming form a C++ developer and i didn't mean just for game, i ment ANY intelligence ... i prefer to program whatever i make in Assembly like that because ambiguity is random yet logical order.
I've been developing a game for over 3years now, which uses some of the most intense Artificial Intelligence seen to date which myself and 2 friends have been working on very hard... it is almost 100% coded in C++

personally i don't see there being limitations to ANY language as long as whoever is using it is skilled in it. you want to debate that it isn't possible to create real human intelligence because of the logic needed in C++ ... well i'm sorry but ALL computer operations come down to a logical YES or NO operation. The computer has no idea of the choices between, it can't decide - but then when it all comes down to it our brains are also logical operating machines working with the perameters of our memories.

as i've said you want to not like the language then fair enough, but don't dog it because of that - i've yet to see an Ai programmed in any other language which would make me standup and say "hey thats actually pretty intelligent" ... fact of the matter is, C++ coding of it would make it alot simpler and easier because you can define the boundries requires and then use a plugin script to example and reprogram itself as it grows to expand the database of knowlage (memory) that it is using to create its intelligence.

the way i see this you don't actually know enough about programming to know what is and isn't possible - if you even had an ounze of programming spirit within you then there would be no such word as "impossible" in your vocablary when it comes to programming something. quite honestly those who need to dog other languages to make themselves feel better about what they use should step back and get into something more for thier mentality, like Accounting perhaps.

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8truths
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Posted: 16th May 2003 22:32
First, another link...

http://www.elsop.com/wrc/humor/unixhoax.htm

Best quote: "At one time, we joked about selling this to the Soviets to set their computer science progress back 20 or more years."

Like Soviet computing had 20 years to give! 20 years further back and they would have been using the bodies of Stalin's victims to build the world's most complex abacus (sp?)!

Like most urban myths, this one gets repeated in different forms.

And, if C++ has such potential for reflecting true intelligence, why has that not come to pass?

When you give me one C++ program that can read a Hunter S. Thompson book, wash the dishes for the fifth time in a single day despite not using them, and then procede to laugh for no reason at the distant memory of a Monty Python sketch, I will be a believer.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th May 2003 22:55
when you give me one program in ANY language capable of that?
because i'd damn sure like to see that!!
So far the best intelligence created was in C++, and it was for a robot which was acted like a bunny rabbit.

perhaps thats not upto your specs of what constitues as intelligence, but the thing acted like a rabbit, it learnt from its experience, etc... that was a true breakthrough in computer science, which i've yet to see beaten.

fact of the matter is though that no matter what language you use, it comes down to the programmers ability - not the language itself.
and whether you like to believe it or not, robots and atificial intelligence is making huge strides daily ... personally i think its only a matter of time before we see the fully functional intelligent robot capable of inputting data from an OCR to learn, or be able to wash the dish (although there is a robotic arm in japan which i believe probably can already do that, not well but probably do it)

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8truths
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Posted: 17th May 2003 12:55
First, a learning rabbit is an exceeding case of anthropomorphism.

I have watched my cat slaughter rabbits for years, and the only time the rabbits recovered was when the cat died. Most animals dwell on hard-wired behavior and just get eaten into extinction when better or plainly more lucky animals come along. Not much learning involved.

Second, I'm all for empowerment, but saying that all programmers if properly motivated, can make this happen is like saying a 1.8 litre 4 cylinder engine can yield 800 hp.

Sorry, but by that standard, a pig with a plan will eventually gain powered flight. In fairness to the pig (and all of us who wanted to see the Charlotte's Web sequel where Wilbur joins the RAF), the chances are slim.

You play the cards you're dealt; the cards dealt to C++ indicate it has a wall of rigid coding. In psychological terms, C++ is sort of the superego.

You have to admit, if intelligence has systemic flaws, and a propensity for bad coding (look at the entire human race), then BASIC is far better suited to replicate those flaws. BASIC is the Id.

Whatever the case, I would place a solid bet on a simple language yielding a definitive intelligence.

Actually, I'd place a bet on no one hitting it.

What's the point? To create a flawed and neurotic machine just to prove it can be done? Or perhaps to validate our own fears of machines gone mad in a killing orgy.

Well, if you wish, let's get a parting shot and call this one dead . . .

Really, until a robot makes his post here, we aren't going to have an answer.

It's a metaphysical debate for the 21st Century; modern man's version of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

IanM
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Posted: 17th May 2003 14:38
Unfortunately, this post has turned into a discussion over a religious issue...

Quote: "... requires a high tolerance for ambiguity.
That just does not exist in C++."


Not true. If you can represent the ambiguity in any language at all, it can also be represented in C++.

Quote: "... but saying that all programmers if properly motivated, can make this happen ..."


You misunderstood that one - Raven said that it came down to the coders ability.

Quote: "the cards dealt to C++ indicate it has a wall of rigid coding"


You are confusing type-safety with rigidity and brittleness.
All the data types that BASIC has are also available in C++, but the real difference is in the way that the languages handle conversions (or not) for you. In C++, it won't do illegal conversions, or will warn of unsafe conversion - unless you override it.

Personally, I'd like to see true AI done in any language at all - but you can bet that 20 years after, we'll see it in various different languages - including BASIC and C++.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th May 2003 15:36
not to be funny but it just seems like you want to rag on C++, even though it has the same contraints of any other programming language on the planet.

BASIC, C, Pascal, Fortran, C++, etc... all are identical underneath as are people. Although the surface may appear different, and they have thier own quirks which make them seem unique - underneath it all they all work 100% the same way.

i mean whats the real different here?


or


or how about something more complex?

or


well?
infact even dispite the setup the workings of both language types are pretty bloody close...
the most major difference between C++ and a BASIC language is actually the difference which makes it so bloody good.

you can do something called Multi-Threading which allowed you to run several programs within the main program at the same time, and they will run syncronously.

for example a BASIC program


now that program will run
do->function2->function1->sync->loop(restart)

do that in C or C++



now its the same, only your having to declare the type of values first - that aside that'll run like

Main()->function2()->repeat each function call
......->function1()->repeat each function call

they functions run at the same time within the same function, and that function will automatically run until you break the code.
quite frankly the benifits from that are actually quite enormous when you want to write complex programs - because you don't have to worry greatly about the order of everything presisly, obviously the order is still taken with required values needed first.

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8truths
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Posted: 18th May 2003 02:09 Edited at: 18th May 2003 02:18
When I say rigidity, I mean that if you gut the brackets from C++ code, it craps out.

A C++ does not have the ability to jump instantly to 30 different points in the code and not crash.

BASIC can. That is a high, high tolerance for ambiguity (also so-called "bad coding habits", but most standardization practices are useless if really attempting something new).

BASIC has the ability to continue to run when it screws up. C++ cannot.

Try some thing like this in C++:


10:
a=rnd*3
print "10"
if a=0 then goto 10
if a=1 then goto 20
if a=2 then goto 30
20:
a=rnd*3
print "20"
if a=0 then goto 40
if a=1 then goto 50
if a=2 then goto 60
30:
a=rnd*3
print "30"
if a=0 then goto 40
if a=1 then goto 20
if a=2 then goto 50
40:
a=rnd*3
print "40"
if a=0 then goto 10
if a=1 then goto 30
if a=2 then goto 60
50:
a=rnd*3
print "50"
if a=0 then goto 50
if a=1 then goto 20
if a=3 then goto 10
60:
a=rnd*3
print "60"
if a=0 then goto 10
if a=1 then goto 20
if a=2 then goto 40


While this is terrible coding in BASIC, BASIC interpreters will let it slide. C++ will have a brain aneurysm.

OK . . .

It's time to disengage this thread.

Sorry, but we are running circles now. It is fair to say, if nothing else, this is turning into a Talmudic debate that has no resolution.

Let's continue this debate when the robot makes his post.

It's been fresh, but let's avoid turning this into an 800 post thread. I have not been hanging around (at least lately) the DB forum long enough to try that.

IanM
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Posted: 18th May 2003 02:42 Edited at: 18th May 2003 02:45
Sorry mate, can't let these slide - they give an incorrect impression of what is currently one of the most used programming languages on the planet. And as nearly all professional games programmers use C++, I would be doing a dis-service to those people here who would like to go professional.

Quote: "When I say rigidity, I mean that if you gut the brackets from C++ code, it craps out"


Try cutting out 'endwhile', 'endif', 'next' from your code. These BASIC commands do the same thing as the brackets do in C++.

Following Ravens example, here's comparison code.



They both do exactly the same thing. To someone coming from BASIC, the brackets may look a little wierd, but consider the other direction. Why have all those different extra words to close off a group of statements - like 'endwhile' for example.

obviously, I use both languages on a daily basis, so neither look weird to me - it's what you're used to.

Quote: "A C++ does not have the ability to jump instantly to 30 different points in the code and not crash"


C++ has a goto statement. It can be used in this way if you wish, but who would? - that type of code is unreadable. I can produce a working example of exactly this code in C++ if you want proof.

Quote: "BASIC has the ability to continue to run when it screws up. C++ cannot"


C++ has what it calls 'exceptions'. When an error occurs an exception is thrown (you can throw your own if you wish also). This causes the program to trace back through your code until an 'error handler' is encountered, which can deal with the problem, or re-throw the exception.

This corresponds to the 'on error ...' command available in most versions of BASIC. However the C++ exception mechanism is more flexible, because you can set up different handlers for each 'error type' where in BASIC you have to have one handler.


I've said it once, and I'll say it again. This has turned into a religious issue. Obviously you don't like (or want to like) C++. But please don't post incorrect and misleading statements. It doesn't do anyone any good - least of all yourself.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th May 2003 08:09
just out of interest it would baffle me to why you'd want to use a goto statment within C or C++ ... due to thier designs making the program run on a linear corse to make then useful would actually be counter-productive wouldn't it?

if you need a similar thing to a goto statment then simply use nasmespace function with global attributes, you'd get the exact same effect and no limitation... or you could use a case-break
but as for having labels & gosubs within a Dynamic language, it kinda defeats the point in the language being dynamic - when you can just use a void function.

if you want to pick a basic language over C/C++ for creating your Ai then thats fine with me, just don't cry when you can't get the depth of interaction that only those languages really provide.

as has been said, we don't care if you like C/C++ or not thats your choice ... there's just no need to dress it down in the way you've been doing.
Personally i can't purebasic, thats not to say i'm gonna go around saying that it's functions and proceedures are just a waste of time because they don't work the same as DarkBasic Pro's - i can accept that is a bloody good language, i just can't personally stand it thats all - not like no one else should like it.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
8truths
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Posted: 19th May 2003 03:15
Let me present a real world problem that has a computer game corollary (sp?)

Have you played a lot of military strategy games? Particularly US Civil War games?

I have yet to have seen a good computer AI that simulates Stonewall Jackson. Specifically, I have yet to see one that can commence the opening move of the Battle of Chancellorsville (despite having less than half as many men as Joe Hooker, Jackson splits his forces in a dense woods and attacks aggressively from widely separated points).

Every sim of this battle I have seen, in order to get the computer to act like Jackson has to have the battle setup at the end game.

Jackson has to be placed in the position where he can begin battering Hooker's troops, or else the computer can't do it.

One of the big things computer AI does not do is see how ridiculous, can't-win maneuvers are sometimes the only way of achieving an irreducible goal (in others, something you cannot escape; also known as being screwed and doing the best you can).

Except with a little cheap randomization, there is no way to get a computer to craft a ballsy plan and see it through.


. . . Back to coding and what it has to do with all this . . .

Goto looping leads to issues about the main loop in C++ and whether it is breakable (real intelligence requires the ability to drift off and never come back-- make a crazy plan and stick to it).

Since, eventually, a real intelligence would have to program itself, that means we get stuck with needing a failure tolerant language.

Exceptions in C++ are handy, but they must be programmed in anticipation of an error; if intelligence allowed us to anticipate all errors, we'd be God (or more likely doing what we do now-- treating other intelligences as the cause of the errors and trying to bend them to our will, thus negating the value of anticipating the errors by causing more errors).

BASIC can, if coded on a low level of quality, go forever without error control.

Since any intelligence must be able to learn and program itself continually, it cannot stop to have a programmer kindly redo its code. Since the main use for machine intelligence is probably going to be deep space exploration-- or other functions where humans just aren't going any time soon-- these machine must be able to cope.

In computing terms, coping means getting by with crappy code and not falling apart because of it (being screwed).

The only thing C++ brings to the AI table that would be of interest is OOP. However, I suspect this "need" is just a rationalist assumption that all object belong in convenient categories.

A self-programming AI could cope by generating its own excessively long new variable names, probably just meaningless strings of numbers.

Whatever the case, what it comes down is that C++ does not cope with being screwed.

As a corporate language, built to avoid failure, C++ does not have the necessary looseness of coding and compilation to handle the inevitable failures of a leaving a machine to itself to learn and reprogram -- and I mean code, not just fill in a few variable and propagate a couple more based on a programmer's code -- as it encounters new problems.

Yeah, that's a hell of a leap. I know. It's a leap that will never be made.

Still, if it is to be made, I say using C++ is the equivalent of trying to jump the Grand Canyon with a loaded 18-wheeler.

Yeah, an 18-wheeler serves its purpose well; I am lead to believe most of my food arrives where I can get it because of 18-wheelers.

That truck just ain't goin' over the Grand Canyon.

8truths
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Posted: 19th May 2003 03:18
BTW -- this has to be one of the more intelligent posts I've seen on the internet. Makes up for a lot of dumb things I have seen.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th May 2003 08:02
8T thats a load of crap and you know it... yes i've seen and played a good few Civial War titles and to be honest they're all just shit.
Why? because no one really gives a damn about them so you get a relatively unheard development team making them who don't have a clue what thier doing.
I mnea for gods sake Ghestiberg doesn't have any 3D in it and requires a Pentium2 266 just to run!! where the hell they're using all of that i've got no idea.

If you want to see good game Ai, get yourself a Peter Moyloneux game. Black & White for example, or even better Creature Island. Your creature grows up, learns and becomes a fully independant entity. And however you treat it will affect how it grows up, its not all about random events - that said a modern day computer doesn't really have the power to be able to really depict full Ai.
It's got bugger all to do with the depth of the language used, and more to do with current Technological limitations.

The human brain if i remember my biology right is capable of around 64billion calculations per second, and believe it or not writing, walking, speach, etc... involve one hell of alot of calculation because we have to figure out so much subconsiouly. Add to this ALL of our intelligence is based on memory and frames of referrence... that is something most comupter games character don't have and it would be a very long and painful route to program this.

The Sims is another good example of game Ai, because your people will at first need your guideance to learn what to do - but after a few times they figure it out for themselves (and in make case it oftenly ment setting the toilet alight - don't ask)

the point is the depth of Ai depends heavily on the processing power you can put into it, because remember although you'll have say a 2.5Ghz processor at your disposal you can't use 2.5Ghz all for Ai - you have to also factor in other things, suchs 3D Calculations, Physics, etc...
As for using Random events - you must use them to truely depict real intelligence. Why? Becuase people oftenly won't think about choices carefully and weigh them up, a computer could cross refference all the data it needs to understand a situation to the best of its abilities - a human won't even try and depending on thier personality will sometimes go for the eaiest route, sometimes go a route that could be best. When it all comes down to it an indecision is a random chance based on personality and experience.

It is becomming more and more obvious that you don't actually know anything about programming Ai or how it even works (i'll try to hold back my surprise) ... and all you want to do is bitch about why you don't like C++ and think others shouldn't.

at the end of the day its the same bloody language to a Basic language, the syntax is just different - therein lies the biggest flaw in your arugment about C++ not being good enough to develop in this mannor. Becuase anything you can do in BASIC you can also do in C++ ... the same does not reverse though because BASIC to C++ is what Terrestrial TV is to Digital Cable w/Tivo.

there is so much more under the hood of C++ yet remarkably it works from a far far smaller language & operator set.

you know what i find actually most amusing about this is DarkBasic & BlitzBasic as programmed within C++ so how exactly could a BASIC language be better than C++.
admitidly they're both slower than PureBasic which is Asm, but the point isn't speed but language interaction - which just because DB&BB were created in C++ doesn't mean that have any less features than any other BASIC language..

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
the_winch
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Posted: 19th May 2003 21:06 Edited at: 19th May 2003 21:07
I think the number of calculations the brain can make per second is estimated in the trillions.

If a computer is ever intellegent it will have to be extreamly robust and resistant to it's own mistakes. How can you learn with out making mistakes? If that mistake causes a crash then it won't work.

Even with unlimited computer power todays ai will never get close to perfection as it is just maths that tries to appear clever, it isn't actually intelligent.
8truths
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Posted: 20th May 2003 00:25
OK . . .

At least we've hit an end point.

I'm done. Kapput. It's the week and I cannot keep checking back on this post.

It has become a point of my day to do so, and now I must either stop or join an on-line 12-step group for compulsive posters with a forum where they discourage postings at all.

Raven -- excellent point about the Civil War games. Lubbed your Cibl War-eeze.

Ian T
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Posted: 20th May 2003 02:37
Well this has degenerated considerably. 8truths had a very valid post there, and saying 'they're all shit' is an extremely poor argument against what he said. Try forming something logical?

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th May 2003 07:11
but there is a difference between making a mistake in your neural pathways or defining logic and making a mistake which causes pain.

human DO NOT learn from logical errors in thier brain, infact if your brain ceases to function properly due to the under lying logic you could be a retard, a mental vegetable, death, and all other mannor of problems suchas Nassisism?(the deseas where you fall alseep and wake up randomly).
If you ask any doctor who knows anything about the brain they'll tell you outright that they're extremely suceptable to physcological problems do to logical malfunction.
Unlike a computer our brains DO NOT halt of the error and tell you what it is, instead they bypass the problem and hope it wasn't serious... but in most cases this is what cases depression, skitzophrenia, etc...

for a Robot we can actually develop a debugger for them which would not only quarentien the affected area but also take what the problem was a rewrite its code to compensate for it.
With the current speed of computers this isn't a likely solution for realtime, however it would make them far more robust and less likely to break down as human models.

and mouse if you think 8truths does have a valid argument and you think what is being said against him is "thats shit" attitude, your right ... becuase 8truths believes that C++ isn't as capable of BASIC for reproducing intelligence due to its language setup, but the fact of the matter is that C++ is one of the best languages you could choose to define almost anything due to its structure.
Just because it is more fussy about implimentation doesn't make it a bad language - that just measn you have to actually program correctly in the first damn place.

as for civial war games, i think they're all a load a crap ... i actually hate the whole genre of those types of game. They're so boring and benin they belong on the table top and not on a computer.

finally the Black&White creatures create their own memories, they create their own script for situations which is used when they're in the same situation ... that my friend is all intelligence is - making a rational decision for your current situation based on the knowlage and more importantly understanding of what is going on.
although the creatures understanding in B&W just comes down to either he was praised for it, or scolded (in varying degrees) that is essentially how a child see the world.
Either they've done good or bad... they'll also notice when they do things if you do similar things, which also happens in B&W.

Say you go around throwing rocks at peoples homes when they stop believing in you, if you do that enough when they stop believing in you your creature if he was watching would also learn that he can do that too, and will do it to give you more faith.

if that isn't what intelligence is then i'd love to see your explaination about what it is ... remember just because they're not run by emotions & instinct as well doesn't mean they're not capable of intelligence. to be perfectly honest even if there were robots as intelligence as you guys i reckon that you'd still say that they're no AS intelligent because i dunno they can't cry or something stupid.
Just bigotry and blindness if you ask me, programmers who can't see beyond the possibility of thier own noses are never going to produce anything worth while i can guarentee you.
certain attitudes really make me wonder why some people are really here.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
8truths
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Posted: 20th May 2003 19:59
Just one point . . .

If I'm not all sweaty about it, and thought the whole post was good, please try to do the same.

Yes, some folks defend their viewpoints in a tought way -- better than being a a totally wimp about it!

The art of critical thought depends on attacking ideas and driving them right into the ground. (I MEAN THIS; NO JOKE, NO SARCASM.)

Danmatsuma
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Posted: 20th May 2003 22:03
raven, it's called Narcolepsy and is a pretty amusing thing to watch
though narcissism is equally amusing to watch I guess...

I consider the problem like this:

An intelligence has only a limited amount of options which lead to progress ever, and those options depend on it's circumstances or surroundings and also emotional/physical state. Whether it will choose the best option and progress will be dependant on how quickly it learns compared to other intelligences competing for the same goals.

If you can code a few functions to represent this, then use external files to represent sets of circumstances which can be rewritten and modified by every entity in the game's interaction with it's environments, I don't see why convincing and learning ai's can't be programmed in any language that has file i/o and the set of operators all programmers take for granted, which is just about any language at all

It would be interesting to code an extention to the life game, with natural selection playing a large part

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 11:45
DarkBASIC was programmed in C++, therefore, anything done in DarkBASIC can be done in C++... lol you throw a silly argument 8truths...

But anyways... I believe intelligence and a 'soul' can be recreated.. though I am sure it will not be done anytime soon... But eventually, if man lives long enough and well enough, he will understand the atom and energy better, and be able to use it to create life just like man is created..

And ya, I guess this does kinda get religous, because religion is based on life and intelligence...

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IanM
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 22:33
I didn't quite mean it like that - I meant it as 'an opinion based on belief, not fact' - kinda like nearly all 'language vs language' discussions.

8Truth was sowing a lot of misinformation about a language he doesn't like, and obviously doesn't know either.

The best stance to take, is to believe as I do - there are only 'best for the job' languages. There is no best language.

I use 5 different languages in my day-to-day work, and pick between them (or mix them) according to the requirements of the job at hand. Luckily for me, none of them are perl or java

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