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Geek Culture / For those of you who have Doom, Hereic, or Hexen...

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Ian T
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Posted: 15th May 2003 21:26
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I have Hexen and Heretic, and when I stumbled across this I just had to install them again... lemme tell you, if you get the model pack, it is amazing . Texture packs sure don't hurt either. And don't you dare mention Zdoom-- I've tried it, this is TONS better. It feels like a very high quality mideivel themed mod of Quake 2 more than a game made for the Doom engine .

http://www.doomsdayhq.com/

By the way, I highly recommend you don't get the model pack for Doom. I gave it a try, and... well, the models aren't nearly as good as those for Heretic. I don't like the game anyhow, so it's no loss
--Mouse

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EdzUp
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Posted: 15th May 2003 22:18
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Dont like Doom, Dont like Doom, heresy.

/me carts Mouse of to hastily created stake

-EdzUp
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Pricey
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Posted: 15th May 2003 22:24
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hey edz-up did you use to use blitz
i think i saw your name in some of the tutorials!

how's george, have they really stopped making blitz 2D?

the website looks horrible now!

I don't know i can't tell!
I push the button and run like hell!
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 15th May 2003 23:09
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Don't like Doom, Don't Like FFVII ??? Madness, shear madness!

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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 15th May 2003 23:31
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lol!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Ian T
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Posted: 16th May 2003 01:51
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Yeah, I dislike both of those games. And it's not just VII, it's the whole darn series. Same goes for Doom/Quake-- I generally don't like anything ID puts out. They have the brains to make an engine, but apparently not enough to design good levels, enemies, or games in general

--Mouse

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Eric T
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Posted: 16th May 2003 18:27
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Anyone who dislikes (note my use of words) the Final Fantasy series is a crazy fool, well atleast as you aren't hating Lunar Silver Star Story, Doom i can understand why you hate it. Just as long as you don't say Duke Nukem sucked you guys are on my semi good side.

-Eric

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Ian T
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Posted: 16th May 2003 18:39
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Uh....

Well it had a few interesing features. I liked the blood splattering on the walls. Still felt rather lame... an archaic engine pushed to its limits, but the actual core needed a serious overhaul.

What the hell is Lunar Star Story?

And I think the word dislike is a bit mild .

--Mouse

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Rob K
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Posted: 16th May 2003 19:21
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"Don't like Doom, Don't Like FFVII ???"

Dislike of the former is madness, dislike of the latter is understandable.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Eric T
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Posted: 16th May 2003 20:59 Edited at: 16th May 2003 21:00
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Lunar: The Silver Star Story was first brought to us back on the Sega CD.. and since has been revamped for the Playstation. This is a great game with characters that pull you into the world of Lunar, an unforgettable story, beautiful cut-scenes, sinister villians, and terrific voice acting. If you haven't played Lunar before, or even if you have, you'd be crazy to pass this one up...



goto http://www.rpgdreamer.com/lunar for more info.

--Eric

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Mentor
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Posted: 16th May 2003 21:22
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yusuke200013! do you do all your posts in a word processor 1st? thats the first time I have seen a centraly aligned post

Mentor.

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Ian T
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Posted: 16th May 2003 21:26
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Oh god, it's another anime game

I wouldn't play that game is I was paid lots of cash for it...

--Mouse

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 17th May 2003 11:37
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"an archaic engine pushed to its limits, but the actual core needed a serious overhaul"

When DOOM came out it was incredible, ground breaking technology! And 3drealms' engine for Duke3d was also amazing at the time, the ammount of detail and interaction was un-surpassed! At the time the only game engine on PC that surpassed it was the Quake engine released 6 months or so afterwards, and whilst that was technically superior, a quick look at the first Quake will show ya we weren't quite ready for the technology

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n3t3r453r
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Posted: 17th May 2003 17:03
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> Dont like Doom, Dont like Doom, heresy
And I love Doom and Doom II. It is the best game I've ever seen. I remember how I played it with my father, his and my friends...

I'd like to change the world, but God doesn't want to give me sources!
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Ian T
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Posted: 17th May 2003 21:12
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Oh come on, how can you say that? The game has NOTHING for it. Poor graphics, a low amount of weapons with one fire mode, weak level design (yes I'm aware of the limitations they had-- play Heretic or Hexen if you want to see how those levels can really become interesting), and the game is really short of top of it all.

I'm off to playing the best game ever made, System Shock 2...

--Mouse

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 18th May 2003 01:43
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YOU ARE FORGETTING THIS IS AN OLD GAME !!!! ARGH!!!

"Poor graphics" - As I said they were incredible at the time!
"a low amount of weapons" - It was only the second such game to have multiple weapons
"with one fire mode" - NO GAME HAD THIS AT THE TIME
"weak level design" Well thats a matter of opinion, but I don't agree
"and the game is really short" - There were massive memory restrictions at the time, the original game came on three 1.44mb floppy disks! Even with this restiction full version Doom was far from short, and had infinite possibilities for expansions and MODDing!

If it wasn't for DOOM System Shock 2 wouldn't be around! With DOOM and Wolfenstein ID INVENTED the fps genre!

lol Look I've got nothing against ya and I'm not dissing u at all. Its just that if you were there at the time seeing all this for the first time you'd realise that whilst it may be showing its age, without DOOM chances are te entire PC gaming community wouldn't exist You might as well criticize Space Invaders, Pac Man, Tetris and Donkey Kong for having "ctap" graphics and a lack of extra levels and features Its a valid(ish) arguement, but by doing so, you seriously miss the point

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Eric T
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Posted: 19th May 2003 20:58
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i use a little thing called center when i post

I always win don't you know that?
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Ian T
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Posted: 19th May 2003 23:35
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' "Poor graphics" - As I said they were incredible at the time!
"a low amount of weapons" - It was only the second such game to have multiple weapons
"with one fire mode" - NO GAME HAD THIS AT THE TIME
"weak level design" Well thats a matter of opinion, but I don't agree
"and the game is really short" - There were massive memory restrictions at the time, the original game came on three 1.44mb floppy disks! Even with this restiction full version Doom was far from short, and had infinite possibilities for expansions and MODDing! '


You're missing my point.

DOOM did not invent the FPS genere. Wolfstien didn't either. They pioneered it, but there were plenty of other developers with similar ideas. If it hadn't been released, some much better game would have been the pioneer.

In 1992, the exact same year Wolfenstien 3d was released, a game called Ultima Underworld came out. It had a real-time, rotating 3d world just like Wolfenstien, but unlike Wolfenstien it had enemies with impressive AI, a large array of weapons, water, lava, etc ad infinium. In Wolfstien and even DOOM, you couldn't jump, swim, levitate... Underworld had all of that. Furthermore, the graphics were more complex and spooky and the polygon count was considerably higher for the world-- but it ran just as well.

id did not start 3d gaming, and in my opinion they very rarely revolutionize it-- look closely enough and there's always a much more advanced title released at the same time, overshadowed by the hulking mass of id's bloated hype.


As for my post above--

'It is the best game I've ever seen.'

He said NOTHING about time. He said best. Very clearly. Not 'best game of its time'. See? Making it completely comparable to games like Unreal II or Half-Life 2. Please read more carefuly before you post.

--Mouse

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Ian T
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Posted: 19th May 2003 23:36
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Oh, and I'll add that Underworld had the exact same restrictions, yet the game was massive, and it also managed to fit in things known as 'plot' and 'atmosphere'.

--Mouse

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Ian T
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Posted: 19th May 2003 23:38
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I will further add by saying that Underworld's sequel had even better graphics and sound, and this was still before the time of Doom.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/shots/p,2/gameId,691/

If you want some screenshots.

--Mouse

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 20th May 2003 00:33
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lol I was aware of Underworld, but firstly, it was released after Wolfenstein, and whilst the textures are nice and the game played well, (I confess I hadn't played it till after I played Doom) it is only slightly more technically competant than Wolfenstein, far below DOOM

I don't think Underworld would have appealled to the mass market anywhere near as much as wolfenstein or DOOM, the general public in the UK and US never really "got" RPG style games till FFVII, before that they were usually an import console game or spoddy paper and dice things. I'm not saying RPG games didn't exist, they just weren't popular (in comparisson with the massive sucess of DOOM, Sonic, Tetris and other Iconic games of that period. Also, the MASSIVE borders in Underworld made it a lot less impressive a technical achievemnt than DOOM.

Just my 2 cents, didn't mean to offend you, But to me, I still can play DOOM today and it feels complete and fresh. Features such as look ingg, jumping etc would have complicated the game uneccesarily, the levels could be planned a load better that way. Only with more complex levels such as those seen in Duke Nuken 3d were they properly implemented in a way that was useful, not just showing off the engine

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Ian T
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Posted: 20th May 2003 02:34
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You didn't offend, you're just very mistaken .

UU is on par with Wolfstein. UU2, on the other hand, is easily as good as Doom, and it has much more complex world textures. Furthermore, UU was released only months after Wolf, on its own technology. Again, UU had far more complex levels and details in it.

Although you can still say DOOM is more enjoyable, it is complete hogwash to say that id pioneered '3d' gaming and first person style games. They did not. The same masterminds behind Underworld made System Shock 2, and if John Carmack had become a physciatrist instead of a programmer and id had never came to be, their masterpieces would have come about all the same (and likely got more of the appreciation they deserve).

As for the more complex levels issue-- my point is, UU had those more complex levels. They weren't quite as detailed as Duke 3d, but they still used a whole lot more detail than even DOOM II. The engine was a whole lot more powerful and detailed, and the game had tons more work put into it (hence a longer, more complex and absorbing play).

Oh, and as for what you said about RPGs-- I'm sorry, but that is utterly untrue. RPGs have been a popular genere since gaming came to be. From the first Ultima game to SSI d&d classics to Underworld, they have been quite popular and have had a very large fan following for a long time. Daggerfall came out well before FFVII, and it picked up every single major game of the year award, and was easily the most popular title of the year-- and you really can't get any more RPG than Daggerfall.

I think I've made my point-- what you said

'If it wasn't for DOOM System Shock 2 wouldn't be around! With DOOM and Wolfenstein ID INVENTED the fps genre!'

Is not true at all. The first person perspective combind with real-time 3d graphics was around before DOOM and it would be only a matter of months before someone made a first person shooter out of it-- DOOM just happened to get there first. As for System Shock 2... well, I already explained that to you.

--Mouse

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 20th May 2003 19:28 Edited at: 20th May 2003 19:32
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I said RPGs weren't MAINSTREAM until FFVII - meaning average punter on the streets who knows nothing about games still bought it (and from what I remember many returned it almost instantly, but the sales figures were still there ) I've been playing RPGs on computer since the Commodore CBM.

I don't want to argue anymore over matters of opinion, and I've never played UU2 so I can't comment on it. Whilst it is obviously a game you like a lot, I still can't believe that if Wolfenstein and DOOM hadn't have been released it would have been a title to really awaken the public conciousness in the way those titles did. Hardcore gamers would have loved the titles I'm sure, but DOOM made people who didn't play games on their PC actually bother. In fact at the time I remember reading articles saying that huge numbers of people were upgrading or even buying PCs specifically to play that game, and I don't ever rememeber a PC game having that impact before. It was like nobody bought a Megadrive until Sonic was released

Anyway like I said I don't wanna sit here and bitch at each other, its just the way I remember it from my perspective, you're totally intitled to dissagree

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 20th May 2003 19:47
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I remember ultima underworld, it went from a very simple 3d environment drawn with lines for each direction n,s,e,w to something like a precursor to wolfenstein 3d in it's later sequels, but it wasn't the kind of game you could just sit down and play straight off, it had an rpg ui, was less action based, and it wasn't until wolfenstein 3d that I saw a reason to upgrade my 286. Still it's worthy of noting that it was one of the first games to use a texturemapped 3d environment, though uu5 was released after wolfenstein3d uu1 was black'n'white lines on a screen and movement occured in 90 degree jumps and room sized leaps, so it wasn't excactly an immersive experience

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Ian T
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Posted: 20th May 2003 20:52
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My point isn't that Doom wasn't popular, my point is that it did not have revolutionary technology. While it may have been the first big hit to use it, it was not actually groundbreaking and unique. It's not a matter of opinion...

Dan-- No, that's not at all what UU was like. You must have knocked the detail down to 0 or something. The game had fully texture-mapped surfaces, smooth real-time movement ala Doom, not like the Bard's Tale games, jumping, flight, etc. Movement was not actually 'jumps', it was smooth and realistic. Is smooth and realistic, I still play it. Enemies moved around and followed you in real-time, combat occured in real-time, NPCs wandered around in real-time, water flowed and bobbed you along with it, etc. The technlogoy surpassed both Wolf and DOOM by miles.

--Mouse

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 21st May 2003 11:39
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Yeah just checked out some screenshots of uu1, I was thinking of a game I used to play on a 286, wish I could remember the name of it though... Cos it predates textured 3d games and yet was a very simple raycaster (uu1 wasn't a raycasting engine)... Can't remember;(

You might like the fact that uu1 has had it's 2d maps taken and made into actual textured polygon 3d, search on google you'll see it

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st May 2003 12:24
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erm... did i hear right?
someone has just compared Ultima Underworld to Wolf3D??!?!
WTF?! Christ man you don't even play computer games do you?

i have UU on diskette form, and i could upload it if you need a rememberance of what it was like ... the control system was bloody far from what i'd call realtime and games like UU have been around longer than that game.

Abandoned Places for example from 1988 on the Amiga 500 1mb
or Dungeon Master (i think that was only in the UK though)
they're not FPS, don't get me wrong they're good games but FPS stands for First Person Shooter - and is given to a realtime game where you well SHOOT things.
Apogee were the first people to ever make one on the IBM Compatible computer, they're also the people who hypermarketed it which actually made it be the father of the current genre known as FPS - however the Amstrad actually had the very first FPS ever, havn't a clue what i was called or who it ws by, but you had to walk around and kill dinosaurs with a gun that had unlimited ammo.
It was in wireframe was was released in '84

as for Doom not having revolutionary technology... Doom was the first game to ever introduce Height into 3D games, it was also the first title ever to have BSP which isn't actually grandly different to what is used today - it is just with 2D Float Coords and an Integer Height. It was also the first engine EVER to have Visibility Culling, it was also the first engine ever to use Lightmaps.

do i need to go on?
although Quake was the first TRUE 3D game, if it wasn't for Doom there would never have been a Quake in the first place... although it expanded on the technology to be revolutionary on its own merits, the basis for the whole engine behind Quake which the technology is used in around 90% of all FPS games on the PC. (yes even today)

Doom is from 1993, it was developed within 12months from the release of Wolfenstien3D and if nothing else you should respect what a gigantic leap in technology it was - and for the time it was the best god damn'd graphics in ANY computer game around, and was for almost 2years!!
it was also one of the first games to actually create a real atomsphere of being within the game.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Ian T
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Posted: 21st May 2003 19:53
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WHAT?

You've been SERIOUSLY mislead Raven.

I have Ultima Underworld on my computer now. I was playing it yesterday. IT is real-time. It has textured surfaces. And saying that Doom was the first game to have height-- BS! Underworld had varying heights and even long drops in all of its levels. Visibility culling? Wrong again! Ultima Underworld had an excellent system of clipping all of the surfaces you couldn't see-- and on top of this, you could actually look up and down in it, and again, jump, fly, etc.

And yet again--yes, the bloody control system is completely real time. You fight creatures in REAL TIME. Ditto for talking and interacting to NPCs. You can pull levels and chains the the doors are fully rendered in 3d, too.

Got it yet?

--Mouse

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Ian T
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Posted: 21st May 2003 19:56
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On top of that, you're totally wrong about Doom being revolutionary. There was nothing revolutionary about it. And atmopshere is a matter of opinion-- I find it bland and boring, while Underworld can still be engrossing.

I think I'll add that Underworld also had full interaction with 3d objects, even climbing on top of them.

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st May 2003 20:29
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you must have a bloody new version of Underworld, because i have the original on this system from '89 developed for the 286, and it doesn't even work on modern PC's without a special wrapper (as alot of dos games won't)

and i can tell you this for nowt it was far from realtime, it was NESW compass movement (from the compass at the side too!) and you could only move a single square at a time, although yes it had an impressive animation system for the tiles and the projected tiles ... it was about as 3D as Wolfenstein was (and used a similar system to achieve the results)

which is totally different to how Doom actually works, i'd suggest you get yourself the ORIGINAL version of the game.
i remember the cliff sections and such, you'd step off them you wouldn't fall it'd cut to a falling animation and you'd have to start again.

Doom was very revolutionary, and if you ever get the chance to see both engines of UltimaUnderworld and Doom i'd suggest you take a bloody good look at them.

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Ian T
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Posted: 21st May 2003 20:55
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Ten years and you haven't figured out how to play the game right

You can click on the compass for jerky movement if you want, but you can smoothly move around with a layout very like the WSAD keys of today (W-run, S-walk, X-walk back, A-turn, D-turn, Z-strafe, C-strafe). You can also smoothly move around with the mouse. And no, falling is not jerky, it's smooth and in real time, and you take a correct amount of damage for it.

I'm playing the original copy of the game with no alterations, Raven.

Furthermore, I have both Doom and Underworld on my computer. What is revolutionary about Doom? Name a single thing. It has nothing that Underworld didn't have. Nothing at all.

I do love enlightening people

--Mouse

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 21st May 2003 23:22
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"Doom was the first game to ever introduce Height into 3D games, it was also the first title ever to have BSP which isn't actually grandly different to what is used today"

Both those points are bang on 100% accurate. I know this because I just read extracts from a book about it on Gamespy

And yes I remember Underworld as having a non realtime, click then move, click then move interface, kinda like dungeon master too

Maybe every1s getting wires crossed cos the versions I have seen and the ones Raven seems to have seen are very similar and far from as impressive as whatever mouse is playing

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Ian T
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Posted: 21st May 2003 23:30
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GrrrAAAK!

Sorry, you are wrong.

Look around and find the game demo. It's out there. Both it and the full copy have real-time movement.

Still have your eyes closed?

http://www.mobygames.com/game/view_review/reviewerId,1626/gameId,690/platformId,2/

http://www.mobygames.com/game/view_review/reviewerId,688/gameId,690/platformId,2/

Look here: http://www.pdabuyersguide.com/games/ultima_underworld.htm

Here's an excerpt: 'The actual movements of characters are pretty smooth, can be compared to Doom.'

Got it yet? You are wrong.

Furthermore, THERE WAS HEIGHT IN THE GAME. It dosen't matter how much you say 'it was Doom! It was Doom!'. you'll still be wrong, because there is height in the game. It had up/down movement and jumping and flying.

Get the demo and see for yourself.

In case you won't look for it, here's the link: http://www.3dgamers.com/dl/games/ultimaunderworld/uw_demo.exe.html

Furthermore, it has sloped surfaces, which the 'geniuses' at id couldn't figure out.

Please stop being so obstinatly ignorant and open your eyes.

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st May 2003 23:34
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but your not enlightening anyone here - the original didn't have keyboard shortcuts ... i have the freaking thing right here from the disks installed and it doesn't work how you say.

my guess would be you probably have the '94 rerelease, which had extra added to it.
that aside the engines are completely different... its not always what you can see on the surface which makes something revolutionary.

Doom is the father game of all modern FPS games, i don't know of any games that are using the Underworld technology in thier games.
BSP, VisCulling, Lightmapping, etc... are ALL from Doom - for gods sake the Visibility Tree was designed by John Carmack so that you could play Doom on even the slowest of 386 machines!

do you have the source code of both of these games, the ORIGINAL release source code of them?
perhaps then you'll see the real differences.

i'm not disputing here that Underworld isn't a good game, however i'm going to greatly dispute what you believe the game could do and its role as an FPS.

apart from anything else Underworld is about as much an FPS as DeusEx or System Shock2 - elements but the main game doesn't revolve around it... the control system is slow and combersome, it is PER SQUARE only - its collision system is something i've talked so many newbies over developing over the years its not even funny.
It runs on a freakin 2D Array for the level, a 0-255 value depicts what is where, and you then have another inplay one which is a simple 9x9 grid which allows the character to move.
as i said the Animations in it are good and they can be smooth too, but it ain't no 3D i'm afriad nor is it the same as Wolf or Doom in its movement.

its really insane trying to tell you how this stupid game works, you not going to believe me unless you have it show to you in source - and something tells me you don't want to track it down to even bother finding out.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st May 2003 23:40
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look mouse would it put your mind at rest if i dig out my underworld disks all 7 of them and upload the bloody thing to show you?
i think you'll find your wrong on alot of points...

Underworlds setup allowed them to do alot of things which would baffle anyone, you want to know why? BECAUSE THEY FAKED IT ALL!
There was no REAL height in it, just like the culling they did wasn't real culling they just didn't draw the squares out of the 9x9 range instead they did a black blend (guess you could have called it the first fogging ... but it wasn't even fogging!)

the whole world was 2d based and contructed, in the main thone room where you have those steps for example, you'd smoothly move up them rather than go up them like stairs. it was all just very clever animations nothing more nothing less.

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empty
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 03:54
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Ah, Underworld I and II. I loved these games.
Well you could move free in Underworld and weren't aligned to the tiles (as opposed to Lands of Lore).
Nonetheless Doom introduced a few new things. Amongst them was the fact that the Doom map wasn't square tile based. In Underworld the maps were made out of square tiles and half square tiles (in all directions). In Doom however for example a wall was only one object.
That allowed more complex levels with less polygones.

Ogres have layers.
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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 07:19
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Doom wasn't a true 3d game, it used a raycasting engine. It was all fake, as you like saying about UW but avoid mentioning about Wolf and Doom. The underworld games didn't have the technology to fully utilize their engines, but they were not raycasting engines, they were true 3d rasterizers. I'm afraid you're mistaken about how they work (although that's understandable because the source code was never released and is now lost).

It was not just 'very clever animations', it was a real 3d engine.

By the way, your comment on the throne room-- again you're wrong. You stepped up them like proper stairs, at the edge you'd 'bump' up. Why? Because it wasn't a raycasting engine!

It helps to do homework before posting. A quick google search turned up all sorts of articles on this.

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 18:30
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hmm... and yet the engine of it i have infront of me which was released 3years ago seems to tell me different...

which to believe internet articles or the actual game enigne used ... Hmmm - well i know what i think i know i'm going to believe.
and Doom didn't use a Raycasting Engine the same way as Wolf - infact due to the BSP they constructed it from Polygons ... it just wasn't considered 3D because it'd use the Raycast engine to project where the polygons were to be projected whereas Wolf3D used it to project the pixels from the tiles used based on an Array map from a precalculated range.

i'd suggest you actually do some real homework and not believe papers on it, most of my information isn't just comming from the engines itself but also from Micheal Abrush - who i'm going to believe has some authority on this considering he was the guy who directly helped to create the new Quake BSP system from the old Doom one.

its not quality of information you can find, its the quality of the source you use

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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 22:09
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Yes, you have plenty of information on Doom, but absolutely none on Underworld-- while I understand that Doom used (mostly) 3d design, I also happen to know a whole lot more about UW than you do.

Besides all that, I have knocked aside every single argument every one of you have put up. Currently, you're hanging onto straws saying 'Doom was revolutionary because it used BSP'. Yeah, I agree, it started BSP and that's a big thing. Revolutionary? Hardly. It was just a useful design that caught on.

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 23:42
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perhaps you might know more (although i doubt it unless you also have the engine which you can flick open infront of you & a suitable 386 Emulator for running the original game) ... but then again i have a feeling Micheal has a better idea than both of us because he was a main programmer for both bloody engines

there are no straws that i'm hanging onto, UW doesn't have true hieght, it doesn't use real3d just pseudo like Wolf3d did - and although yes you could argue that doom also wasn't useing real3d it was using polygons and started the framework which became Quake which you cannot deny was 3D.
BSP format, included lightmapping (which is still bloody used today in the exact same form, just now its done with a 16-32bit colour depth rather than 1bit)

BSP by todays standard perhaps might just seem like a useful design to you, but do you even know how many 3d programs, engines, games have benifitted from BSP?
without the concept of the BSP Tree you could forget about alot of the performance that your computer has when it comes to 3D ... the actual format itself is dieing off, but its designs and concepts have completely changed the industry.

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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd May 2003 23:48
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The concept has been around for a long time, it was solely the design that was useful. And yes, it helped quite a bit, but by now it's already dead as far as big league programmers are concerned. I'm wondering if polygon clipping itself will die out-- video cards are advancing so much faster than CPUs, after all...

Nobody has actually tried the point of this thread, have they?

I'm having a hell of a time playing jHeretic... Raven does a good job of turning id's crappy games on good engines into playable games . Heretic is okay, Hexen is interesting, Hexen 2 is actually an unusually good game in its own right... Heretic II is one of the funnest action/adventure games I've ever played though.

Too bad the CD died a while ago . I can't find it anywhere now...

--Mouse

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 01:28
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lol actually yes I've tried Jdoom, hertic and hexen they are quite cool, thanks for posting the links I had used them b4, but 4got the name of it

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Ian T
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 02:17
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Ah good

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 03:51
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i've already used jDoom infact have been since '99 when it was first developed, posted a link here a good few months ago about it.
but atleast back then no one was slagging off a game which is essentially identical to the one they seem to like.

Heretic & Hexen are no different to doom in gameplay, just different in weapons/enemy ... oh and Hexen you can choose between different people which changes what attachs you have and how much pinishment you can take - but i'd hardly see how that would constitute as

Hexen = Good
Doom = Bad

your just one fudged up lil guy really

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Ian T
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 04:57
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Raven, there's no need to get so angry about someone elses' tastes. I don't have a problem with you-- or, better put, my regard of you hasn't dropped because of this particular conversation-- and there's no need to try to turn it into a flamefest.

Yes, the reason I like Heretic is because it has different weapons, enemies, and levels. Actually, I don't particularly like it in itself, but I think a better engine beefs it up to the level of 'playthroughable'. id can't figure out how to make a decent game out of their own engine, poor souls...

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 16:43
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personally i think all of id's games have been bloody stunning, and only 3 updates have ever made better use of thier engine to a degree which makes it more fun...

Jedi Knight2
Medal of Honour : Allied Assult
Return to Castle Wolf

and thats only because to be honest i prefer story based single player affairs ... its not that i don't like to play online because i think JK2 online with a Lightsaber is awesome - its just at the end of the day at 2am your friends oftenyl arn't willing to come online just to play you and at that time in the morning the only people ingame are bloody french & german gamers who have no concept of what a "rules of engagement" are.

you'll be in a Duel with someone and they'll be running between you hacking and slashing, running around the level hacking and slashing whilst the rules for the world are that you MUST be in a duel to fight. drives me nuts... i hate people who just want to piss around rather than fight normally, just because they have buggerall skill i dunno why the hell they have to ruin it for everyone.

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Posted: 23rd May 2003 19:50
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Anti-noob attitudes won't get you very far. You have to be willing to put up with lack of skill and expirience or nobody else will ever come to be good at a game.

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 21:47
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its not an anti-noob attitude... my favourite server when you join has a MOTD come up that says "OBEY THE RULES, the rules can be found at www.vulcanus.net"
they then come on and start hacking and slashing at everything and not adhearing to the rules and guidelines set by the server.

its not a case of being an anti-noob, it a case of being anti-moron-who-can't-bloody-read

i was a noobie once too ya know, i didn't just suddenly go online and go "oh look i'm a master now i can beat everyone" ... i trained every single lunchtime and after work to get as good as i did.
last thing i want to do is be standing waiting for a duel from someone minding my own just to have some bugger run thier saber through my back thinking that kill actually matter on the server.

the whole idea of the server we're on is to fight mono-e-mono as it were against an opponent in duel mode ONLY, there is no fighting allowed outside of it and even newbies would learn this if they bothered to read the rules.

if you think it is thier right to go around doing this then what kinda attitude are you pushing?

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empty
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Posted: 23rd May 2003 21:50
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And did they show their id-cards and passports or how did you guess their nationality?

Ogres have layers.
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Shadow Robert
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i use ASE empty ... you can see the country of origin of players, but that aside when someone come into a server, where the rules state you must speak english so everyone can understand and they start talking in thier native languages ... its pretty obvious.

i might not know enough of the languages to get by, but i know enough to recognise them ... and infact i know enough since being on vulcanus to actually tell you rough dialects from the areas of the countries people are from.

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