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3 Dimensional Chat / Maya vs. 3dsMax

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SamHH
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 00:44 Edited at: 15th Apr 2007 00:51
Since both of these programs are owned by Autodesk I was wondering Whether there is a very big difference between the two. I would also like Users opinions on which they prefer Thanks.
Opposing force
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 00:57
Yeah, price

SamHH
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 00:59 Edited at: 15th Apr 2007 02:20
Is that it? I'm also asking which people prefer
Phaelax
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 02:24
I prefer studio max, but thats probably because I already invested so much time years ago learning its interface. But Maya can work on Mac, which would be nice to have. I tried Maya a long time ago, some kind of "Lite" version came free with my UT game.


SamHH
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 02:48
But is maya Superior because it costs more?
indi
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 03:16
what do you want to achieve with the package?

SamHH
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 03:51 Edited at: 15th Apr 2007 03:54
Game media mainly for Fpsc. but also high poly stuff just for art work
and cut scenes. Mainly I just want to know if there is a fundemental difference and if one is superior.
Moondog
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 04:44 Edited at: 15th Apr 2007 04:48
In capable hands, any 3d modeler can do anything you want it to do. Some do features better then the others, and some not at all.

Now when you say you want to use a modeler for FPSC, high poly, art work, cut scenes...what do you mean by that? Are you working with actual poly modeling? Do you want to be able to use splines or NURBS? How about normal mapping? ANimation? Easy of use skinning? Unwraping tools? Art work as in, what?

Each program has it's plus and minus, and no matter who says what, both programs are capable of whatever you want. Some will say choose MAYA becuase of blah blah, and others will say MAX becuase of blah blah. In the end it's all blah blah blah. So it depends on yoru tastes and what you prefer.

Now, do you want to sell you games and artwork? If your going that route, licenses will be a big factor in which program you buy.

I suggest download Gmax, and Maya trial version, and learn both. Both are free, and you can decide which you like more.

MOONDOG

indi
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 04:46
workflow usage will play a very important part as moondog suggests.
Its up to you and your work flows that allows you to make an estimation.

SamHH
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 05:10
thanks guys, too bad Gmax is no longer available.
indi
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 05:18
try another server like download.com or something similar.
I know the official website says its discontinued.

Moondog
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 06:03
turbosquid has the download as well

MOONDOG

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 13:32
gnax has legal limitations. Maya and 3DS Max, are bloody expensive for your average Joe kind of guy, if you can afford it, great, if you can't, don't pirate it, get something like Softimage|XSI, Lightwave or one of the cheaper packages.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
KeithC
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 15:19
Lightwave and XSI are becoming more prevalent in the gaming scene (due to their low price).

From what I've read (Indi may be able to verify this), Maya has a few problems when converting models for use in game engines (especially .X format); but Maya is used pretty extensively in the computer graphics industry, especially in animated cinema.

3DS Max has been used as the staple for game development for years now, in addition to higher poly work/films. You'd have to look at what plugins you may need with Max that may already come with the full (more expensive) version of Maya. I'd take Moondog's advise though.

-Keith

Motocross pro712
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 15:33
I would prefer 3ds max, But everyones taste is diffrent, the main reason why I prefer 3ds max is, cause well the user interface is more comprehendable to me, and you can easly move your cameras around alot more...

Idk i just grew up with 3ds max and Gmax and stuff so In my opinion I would prefer Max but it is like I said everyone has there own taste.

www.Zorakgame.com a Classic in the making. Chop up them Leezy old Nazis, and find out why Hitler was so Evil.
indi
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 15:39
Quote: "Maya has a few problems when converting models for use in game engines (especially .X format)"


omg yes! and to top it off I have to hand it over from mac OSX to a Windows system, thank heavens for Unwrap3d handling some errors just to get it to be importable to other windows programs.

I saw a recent post however that had the method fairly squared up.

SamHH
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 15:53
butters said that Maya was the most compatible with .x
SpyDaniel
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 16:00
3D Studio Max outputs X files just fine, I havent had any problems. But you dont need Maya or Max for fpsc, download a free package, or buy a cheap one, because its just not worth it for fpsc.
hessiess
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 16:29
blender has most of the fetures of maya/max. but is completly free. the rate at witch its advancing, i dont think it will be long until tha are ecwel in what tools are avaloble. i doubt blenders interfase would take any longer to learn than maya/max ext

it dosant have full sport for normal maps yet.
Venge
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 17:24
they use maya for special effects in doctor who.

lol

i would recommend something cheaper, unless you actually have money...

"You will never reach 100% if 99% is okay." -Will Smith
Moondog
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 18:15 Edited at: 15th Apr 2007 18:17
come to think of it, if you aren't allready industry good, which then you'd probably get a job with your skills...then max and maya are complete overkill. I use Truespace for all my work, it does what i need, and it has a nice scripting language, and physics engine built in for complete control. It only cost roughly $800 as well.

So, maybe you should learn Blender and use that as your modeler for a while. If you have the money, don't get max or maya, get a new rig instead

IF theres one myth that everyone believes, that has been drilled into many heads is, you need the best packages to create the best media. Well, that's wrong and stupid. Even if you had max or maya, if you don't know the first thing about modeling, then, you just waisted thousands of dollars. YOu can learn the ropes in any package out there. Hell, i suggest downloading Wings3D first! Not only is it one of the best poly modelers ever(my opinion), but it has the simplest skinning tools i've ever used!(my opinion )

But, again like i said, everyone's blah blah blahing. It's up to you to decided what you like. Just download any package you might be interested in, and try it out for a while.

Ok im' done typeing

MOONDOG

MOONDOG

edit: i was so worked up i typed 'moondog' twice

SamHH
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 22:04
I thought blender doesn't export .x with animation.
Moondog
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 22:08
for full details on how to export your models from blender to DBP, go here:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=86821&b=3

MOONDOG

SamHH
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 22:22 Edited at: 15th Apr 2007 23:41
looks like they had a lot of fun trying to make it work
also everybody says there are lots of free programs compatible with fpsc but milkshape is the only one that i could find. oh and this is what butters said in his dream stealer thread
Quote: "I do all my modelling in Maya 6.5 (most stable for direct X)"
Interested and determined noob
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 00:54
i honestly prefer maya to all other 3d software simply because i am used to its interface. for instance i tried out xsi 6 for a little while and i just couldn't ajust. a good 3d moddeler can adjust to almost any of them but i am very particular about my work environment.
hessiess
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 01:33
Quote: "I thought blender doesn't export .x with animation. "


or you can export a difarent format and convert it. blenders 3ds exporter works fine, theres lots of 3ds-> .x converters.
03apples
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 02:28 Edited at: 26th Apr 2007 02:29
i would go with blender. it has a lot of good features that make objects look really realistic like maya(i think blender was based off of maya). Anyways its free and exporst to proplably more than 20 different kinds of file names and you can do alot lot more stuff.
indi
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 02:55
The main reason why Ive invested in maya is that its format is also my video editing software.
This allows me to have tight integration of video and 3d.

Venge
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 05:03
blender has a video compositor.
lol.

indi
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 06:25
blender can export to IFF yep, however at this point in time blend and ma/mb will not load into each other, or least I havent found it yet.

I found a great comparison chart for this discussion.
http://wiki.cgsociety.org/index.php/Comparison_of_3d_tools

at this point in time as well the video compositor is many features behind FCP / SHAKE / AE, but as blender grows it seems to get better with each step.

SamHH
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Posted: 30th Apr 2007 19:27
@indi that chart was very helpful.
puppet
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Posted: 30th Apr 2007 21:06
I prefer Maya. probaly because I've invested many years in learning it. But it has limited export capabilities. Like no directx capabilities forcing me to use Max as well. I find max clunky and not very intuitive. where I learned maya with relative aese and logic manual free, max jst seems stupid how they have things layed out and their approach to tasks

I model and texture in Maya because I can do it very fast. then export as obj and import the obj into Max ( UV coordinates are still there) just make a new shader and export with the Panda exporter for directx.

It sucks if the model is a character and I have to use Max's crap system for skinning and weighting and animating
John H
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Posted: 1st May 2007 01:50
XSI is really making itself known in the eyes of many 3D Professionals. I know for a fact that my 3D Modelling & Animation professor (who, by the way, has a job in the game industry) uses Maya just because thats what the company he is employed by has a lisence for, however for his own freelance work and whenever he is given the option, he preferes Softimage XSI. I absolutely love the tool, and the best part is, the Standard version is very affordable and INCREDIBLY powerful, especially if you arent educated in scripting and such for Maya/Max, which is where those tools power is hidden.

XSI is FTW.


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bond1
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Posted: 1st May 2007 13:50 Edited at: 1st May 2007 13:50
Well since the topic is Maya vs Max...

Animation: Maya has more comprehensive animation tools, but nothing beats Character Studio in 3ds Max for quickly setting up prebuilt biped rigs. Plus it's the "native" format for FPSC characters.


Poly Modeling: I'd call it a draw, although I give the edge to 3ds Max, plus there is are TONS of custom scripts and plugins for max that can make any modeling job even easier.

Import/Export: I'd give the edge to Max, it's been around so long that if you need any type of exporter, chances are that someone has written one (or two) for max.


Particle systems: Maya, hands down. But do you really need this for your use?


I'd still recommend max just because of Character Studio, great poly modeling tools, and the extensive plugins and scripts available to make life easier. But that's just me.

----------------------------------------
"Your mom goes to college."
My FPSC stuff at http://www.hyrumark.com
SamHH
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Posted: 5th May 2007 04:08 Edited at: 5th May 2007 04:10
Thanks for all the responses,It seems that 3dsMax is turing out to be the best for Fpsc. Any XSI users have problems with Fpsc?
John H
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Posted: 5th May 2007 09:33
You wouldnt have any problems using XSI for FPSC. The only issue youre going to confront with any of these programs is cost. This is why I recommend XSI, as it is very (relatively speaking) cheap, and incredibly powerful, also it is, to some degree, a bit more simple than Max or Maya. I'd 100% recommended it. If you dont have the cash, go with Milkshape 3D, its only $20.


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SamHH
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Posted: 5th May 2007 17:14 Edited at: 5th May 2007 17:25
I've got Milkshape already,does XSI support .bip? also Milkshape cant handle really high poly stuff
vibe runner
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Posted: 5th May 2007 20:56
I haven't heard of XSI supporting BIP natively.

I do recommend XSI, though. It's superb. Really, really good.
Raven
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Posted: 6th May 2007 03:29
Gmax was limited to game companies that produced and licensed plug-in exporters. This seriously hurt the product, as no-one wanted to invest in this. You can still download it from Fileplanet (Gmax 1.2 with Quake3-Engine Exporter Set "Tempest") but personally I'd recommend downloading 3D Studio Max (30-Day)Trial Edition. Basically it's the full thing you get to use for 30-Days, then you either buy it or uninstall it.

Unfortunately Maya and Softimage|XSI don't have that, instead they have full versions that are limited to what they export. Both are quite popular still because XSI supports Half-Life 2 (so is quite big with that community) and Maya supports Unreal 2.x/3.x (so is quite popular with that community).

I would say purchasing a 3D program comes down to preference if you don't have to use it for your given profession.
As far as the differences between Maya and Max go, while technically yes they are both owned by Autodesk .. they are still entirely autonamous companies who are owned by a larger corporation.

Discreet still develop 3D Studio Max
Alias still develop Maya

If they didn't then they'd end up loosing that individualism that people prefer from each. The industry seems to swing on what is popular based on who creates a stunner heralded game with each one.
This said, that generally only applies to the "bottom-end" of the development barrel. It is quite rare for established developers to change their art and programming pipelines without a damn good reason.

Maya has been and still is the industry standard for game development. With longer and more complex pipelines this isn't going to change any time soon either.

Reason behind this is quite simple.
It allows developers to do artwork very quickly. This is the reason why I prefer to use it to anything else.

In each of the other products I've tried, atleast one aspect of development has been difficult to deal with. Causing pipeline slow-downs. With Maya, while it doesn't have the largest toolset in the world to work with.. what it does, it does right!
I've found that in other 3D apps (Max, XSI, Houdini, Lightwave, TrueSpace) it can take me the better part of a week to create a single model from concept to finish.

With Alias' range of products, this pipeline is very quick and small. I can concept in Sketchbook as I would with pencil & paper, then pretty it up with colouring you'd expect from Coral Painter (which crashes ALOT). After that it's fairly simple to get in to Maya create the base mesh within a couple of hours, then I can generally rig ANYTHING within another hour; especially with the auto-bind. Makes finding animation issues with the mesh and changing them so damn easy and quick it's a god send. Once that is done it's fairly simple to wrap models as you don't have to do it all seperately. You can unwrap in both the 2D window and 3D perspective. Once the base texture map is there, I can then move over to Ashli + FX Composer for DirectX-compatible shader development. This all integrates perfectly so I can see changes in real-time as I'm making them. It means that I can get things looking and running exactly how I want them to.
I can then tie-in Photoshop for the colouring and design of the textures to ehance what the shaders are doing, again this can be integrated so real-time changes are possible to see.

Maya fully supports displaying DXT and HLSL. This means WYSIWYG in terms of DirectX development. As Maya also works by default to a 1:1cm scale, it also means that while yes engines like Half-Life 2 are out of scale.. Doom3, Unreal Engine, and DarkBASIC Professional there are no translation problems. In-fact it's a 1:1 scale with DBP.

With Aegis PhysX plug-in you can also incorporate full physics animations in to your scenes. Everyone else seems to use their own custom solutions from Havok, but I really like the Aegis system as it's a sinch to use and integrate. (oh did i mention it can output the physics models too?)

Because of integration you can also utilise both Shake (Mac) or PremierPro (Win) to export and edit rendered movies.

All of this thought will usually take me a couple of days rather than weeks to get a model from concept to in-game. Also means that if a major overhaul is required, then it's very simple to do that.
The BonusTools Alias release with each edition (mostly to show off new scripting abilities) generally help greatly for game resource development. BonusTools 6.5 for example are almost invaluable for creating buildings or terrain.

Something I've found personally invaluable that only Maya has, are the layers. Most apps have groups, and objects.. Maya has those too, but Layers allow you to create in a similar way you would say in Photoshop. You can build-up and affect each one as you need to.
So let's say you wanted a higher polygon model for movies, than in-game. All you would need to do is have the model (and it's resources) in one layer-group, then create an instance layer group based on it. Set a mesh-cage around your model, map the lines you want static (basically like saying what MUST remain as the outline for setting harder edges) then sub-divide.

As the layer is an instance, there would be no physical mesh; that would be you're game mesh. Instead what it does is add the changes you made, which you can check the undo-queue to change between point. So you animate the model, or use currently made animations; and rather than having to re-rig for the new model all you do is click to show the layer and bam .. you have you're high-end version with very little effort.

What is cool about Maya, mainly is the fact that the learning curve is so gentle. All of the tools have enough options to keep the professional happy, but you don't have to access or use them if you don't want to. It's that scalability that makes it so good at every level. What's possibly even better when you learn MEL is that all of the plug-in's loaded you can access with MEL. This means if a tool does *almost* what you want it to, you can always code up a short-cut with an option menu for it to do exactly what you want to.

At the end of the day it's your decision, and given the size of the purchase it might come down to how much you're willing to stretch your wallet.

I just suggest you think seriously and try each one out. Make sure whatever you do get, you're happy living with.

Interested and determined noob
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Posted: 16th May 2007 04:27
one thing that is a possitive for max right now is the fact that the vray rendering engine supports particle effects in max and not maya. this should change with v-ray's new up-coming releasebut it might not. apart from that i am a maya guy.

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