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Dark Physics & Dark A.I. & Dark Dynamix / Dark AI - strongly considering purchasing

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MartinS
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Joined: 15th Dec 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: 30th Apr 2007 15:10
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Hi all,

I am looking into buying Dark AI. I have downloaded the FPS-style "interactive demo" and am greatly impressed. However, before purchasing, I'd like a few questions answered. All questions should be answered with the intermediate user in mind.

1) What is a reasonable learning curve for this expansion pack?

2) How easy is it to add to an already started game? (e.g. a car game, all made except for the AI)

3) On the Dark AI info page, TGC states that it "comes with 10 example programs, each showcasing a different aspect of the Dark AI system". Firstly, what exactly do those programs do?

4) Last of all, does Dark AI "take over" your game in the same sense that a physics library does?

Thanks in advance,
G2L

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Cash Curtis II
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Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 3rd May 2007 07:49 Edited at: 3rd May 2007 07:51
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Quote: "1) What is a reasonable learning curve for this expansion pack?"

It's very easy to use. It will take you some experience to learn the ins and outs of it, manipulating it specifically to your needs. No more than a couple days of tweaking the existing, and already working, settings.

Quote: "2) How easy is it to add to an already started game? (e.g. a car game, all made except for the AI)"

Very easy. You can turn the AI over to it totally. The hardest part for you will be to make all of your models animate correctly based on the AI.

However, it isn't appropriate for car AI. It is fantastic for the pedestrians and other characters. In my Dark Physics compo entry, I use Dark AI for the units and I wrote my own car AI for the vehicles.

Quote: "3) On the Dark AI info page, TGC states that it "comes with 10 example programs, each showcasing a different aspect of the Dark AI system". Firstly, what exactly do those programs do?"

They show the capabilities of DarkAI. It shows things like automatic AI control, teams, walking up stairs, etc. It's very comprehensive.

Quote: "4) Last of all, does Dark AI "take over" your game in the same sense that a physics library does?"

You can let it take over, or opt to control your units yourself. It's very flexible. I prefer automatic control. However, I use Dark Physics with it, so while I use automatic control, I have to manually control the characters at times. Very easy to do.

Bottom line - it is a fantastic addon for DBP. It was written by Sparky, and is done extraordinary efficiently. It taught me a lot about AI. If I make AI in another language, it will be based on his model.


Come see the WIP!
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MartinS
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Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: 3rd May 2007 16:07 Edited at: 3rd May 2007 16:17
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Thank you Cash Curtis for your feedback. I am now very strongly considering purchasing Dark AI.

But about the car AI. Would it not be possible to use place waypoints with Dark AI for the opponents, and then simply have them follow it?

Thanks!
G2L

EDIT: And after re-reading newsletter 51 - congrats Cash Curtis for getting the $20 voucher!

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 3rd May 2007 18:51
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Np. You should definitely get it.

The problem with using Dark AI with vehicles is that they'll act exactly like human units. They'll move at your desired speed, of course. However, when they turn, they'll pivot on their origins. That will look ridiculous with vehicles. You can turn off strafing, but the basic AI will remain the same. You might see vehicles spin around, move back from an enemy, and move around in tiny steps. It all makes sense for character units, but not for vehicles.

In my Dark Physics compo entry I used waypoints for vehicles. Once a vehicle reached a point,it would begin turning toward the next point. In order to achieve good vehicle control with Dark AI, so many work arounds would be necessary that coding your own vehicle AI would be far simpler.

Quote: "congrats Cash Curtis for getting the $20 voucher!"

Thanks


Come see the WIP!
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MartinS
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Posted: 3rd May 2007 18:57
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Quote: "when they turn, they'll pivot on their origins"


What if I use fix object pivot? Would it still return the same results? (Don't get me wrong, Dark AI still sounds awesome, and car games weren't the only games I'm planning to code with it. )

G2L

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 3rd May 2007 19:16
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Fix object Pivot lets you reassign the permanent direction that an object points. That is very different from the motion that a car gives you when you turn the wheel with acceleration. There is no way to natively alter the angles of an object to mimic a vehicle's movements.

Other points I forgot to mention - cars must accelerate from a full stop to full speed. Humans accelerate almost instantly. If your cars can accelerate instantly to top speed, it will look quite silly. In addition, cars must decelerate realistically. Units will avoid touching other units. If your car is at full speed and is about to run over another unit and stops instantly, people will just stop playing.

I faced all of these problems in my Dark Physics compo entry. My end result were cars that behaved appropriately and character units that did as well.


Come see the WIP!
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MartinS
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Posted: 5th May 2007 08:51
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@Cash Curtis II:
Ok. Thanks for your help!

I've got one more burning question... What else, besides people, is Dark AI meant for?

Thanks!
G2L

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 5th May 2007 22:40
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Quote: "What else, besides people, is Dark AI meant for?"

Aliens, animals, hobbits. Anything that has a brain and doesn't care to get run over by lawn mower.


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MartinS
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Posted: 5th May 2007 22:46
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Quote: "Aliens, animals, hobbits"

Got it. Thanks so much for all your help!

And finally, is there anything I should know about Dark AI before I purchase it?

G2L

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 5th May 2007 22:52 Edited at: 5th May 2007 22:55
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Quote: "And finally, is there anything I should know about Dark AI before I purchase it?"


Well, one thing that might or might not matter. If you are using Dark AI+Physics, you are supposed to update the real AI position every loop because the physics can change the AI position. However, when you do that, it resets the AI action to 'stopped'. I posted a bug report and example a while back, which was confirmed. You can check it out here...

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=88565&b=15

In order to work around this, I only update the new AI position if the real position is more than the height of the unit different. It works great.

Another thing, kind of annoying and I hope that later we have the option of changing it, all AI units are the same size. This is a factor when units are trying to avoid each other. An elephant and a mouse are treated as the same size.

Other than that, it's a solid product. I use it for enemies and animals in Geisha House, and they work great.


Come see the WIP!
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