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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / more than 256 players

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krannock
23
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 19th May 2003 15:54
Hi,

Anyone know if there is an easy way to fool / or set dp to have more than 256 players online and all still talk to each other etc?

thanks
Shadow
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Posted: 19th May 2003 16:19
If you can make people take turns to use a player number you might be able to figure something out.
IanM
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Posted: 19th May 2003 20:34
You've got two choices

1) Write your own network code.
2) Have more than one server.
Nilrem
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Posted: 20th May 2003 01:50
How come there is only an allowance of 256? I mean I've read the other topics about this, and I understand about zones etc, however I was just wondering is it limited due to a technological issue?

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
IanM
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Posted: 20th May 2003 01:58
It's limited due to DirectX - that's all DX allows.

But really, the chances of anyone running a game with 256 simultaneous connections on *one* machine are almost non-existant - even the big-boys use server farms to share the load.
Nilrem
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Posted: 20th May 2003 02:01
Not if you're my friend who runs an OC-48

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
rapscaLLion
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Location: Canada
Posted: 20th May 2003 06:48
Seriously, why would you need more than 256 players in one zone? I mean, it would run slow as hell! However, if you need more than that, you'll have to write your own net code, which is probably best because of speed, you could optimize it for your game.

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Kousen Dev Progress >> Currently Working On Editors
krannock
23
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Joined: 19th May 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 20th May 2003 15:04
i was working on the petext of having to have a couple of machines hooked up. does anyone have any bright ideas as to how i would have them keeping each other up to date with info.(players).
I suppose its a case of just getting the coding correct.....?

IanM
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Posted: 20th May 2003 15:27
What sort of scale do you want?

1) up to 255 - minimum of a single machine
2) up to 64000 - up to 256 machines
3) unlimited - ?????

You can come up with scenarios where almost any number of players is possible - the trick is in getting the game to run at a reasonable speed (both in terms of processing power, and network speed).

As I said, even the big games have to limit the number of players per zone, and they pay high connection fee's for the network.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th May 2003 16:29
Nilrem don't forget that servers don't pass data across, they have to handle all of those systems - because a system can handle 256 connections doesn't mean it can handle 256 players.

i think even my Dual Optiron machine with an OC/255 would have a huge problem handling that many players. Most you can really load most standard servers with is around 128 before your latency gets too great.

that aside, most of the bigboys as Ian put it actually only ever use 64connections per server box and have a professional setup server with stacks of around 20 per box, most of them then have around 16boxes per large server room.
although its connected all upto the same Harddisk stack for all 20 of those machines, the actual machines themselves are nothing more than simply motherboard w/cpus as workstations of yaw were like

there are a few companies that lease these servers for about $120/year - it is quite expensive to keep these machine running and maintained... for seriously large games a standard home computer just doesn't cut it far too much overhead on windows, and if you have say 4machines each running a seperate server proxy then that is still 4 version of windows which could go wrong each with thier own overhead and connection overhead.
you'd be surprised at just how much overhead it takes to run an OS on each machine and then proxy it out.

try to remember that the servers must calculate every players position and select what data they send back, because although an OC/48 connection could handle in theory 256 players all with thier own positions, items, stats, chattext etc...
just because the actual netcode being sent is only a matter of say 1-200bytes when you have 255 players that multiples to 4mb-ish

4,000*8=16mbit
which is actually far more than standard home connections can handle

you add that with the fact that if it takes alot to process the collision of your machine with others and send it about (apart from the fact that i don't think that would be feasibly possible) there would be an aweful lot of data that its sent to figure out collision, chat, items, etc... when it doesn't even need to use it at all.

most games use an information-on-demand routine which basically means that the server takes care of the knowhow of all the positions and essentials which should only be a few floats - but when it comes to item menus and such which are larger amounts of data it is only on the request of a client machine

the idea is to get the server doing AS MUSH as physically possible, so that you can ease up the bandwidth use and more importantly leave more power on the end-users computer to focus on the connection mainatinance, as it does take alot of processing power with the exception of hardware modems (which most Broadband connections arn't)
this however does put alot of strain on the processing of the server which means that you can only physically host a smaller amount of people ... most games try to get a good blend of both doing the data, and alot of the time you have to make a tough decision between realtime and just randomised data to subside the latencies.

trust me there is alot more to MMO games than just the network speed and connections - if anyone can get 255 connections working in realtime on thier machine you will have my respect and admiration because to be perfectly honest i don't think it is possible without making the lag to great to the other users (remember that each users conneciton speeds arn't just thier problem but everyones because the Server awaits the data from that particular user, else it becomes biased to fast connections and people complain ... ALOT)

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Ian T
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Posted: 20th May 2003 18:25
Very explinatory Raven.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
krannock
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 20th May 2003 19:06
WOW what a reply......!!!

Cool thanks for the info.. makes me re thinks my strategy about my game (planning stage at mo)

Thanks Raven for that......most helpfull

krannock
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Posted: 21st May 2003 17:30
Idea....!

what about having say 100 per comp and having 4 comps=400 players, have the comps all hooked to the net separately and having them on an internal 1000 network. They then send relevent data to each other internal and can each then talk to players also.
If you also had the client software self analising then it would send different info the next time if the player didnt move or did no action. This way you can max your data flow as not all info would need to be sent all the time.
Also if the server was checking it could be set to only send player data for other players/monsters etc to you if they were in a set area around you.ie visible on your screen.therefore cutting down data being sent.dat again would only be sent if an action happened ie if player didnt move then no point in sending x/y data again.

any ideas on this...is it a reasonable plan....should i bother?.
i would only start with one server to start but could then add others if needed.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st May 2003 17:42
lol... i believe thats whats already been said

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
krannock
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Posted: 21st May 2003 19:01
LOL yeh just clarifying cos im abit thick on this kind of stuff

Smile it could be worse....I smiled...it got worse!

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