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Welding verts, and faces together in MS3D.

For those who don't like to read explanantions Q.'s pulled out of text:

1. Is there an easy way to add a vert along the edge of an existing face of a primitive?

2. Why is welding parts such a pain? Is the only method, to select two verts, snap them together, then weld them?

3. Why can't I select to faces and join them together and have the vertts automatically allign?

4. What do I do if I am joining one section to another and they don't have the same number of verts?

5. If I like modeling in Milkshape3D, and if there isn't an easier method that I am unaware of... should I create the seperate "object groups" in Milkshape, and weld them together in another app? Any recommendations?

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INFO:
Most of the tutorials I have looked at, show welding on verts that were placed one by one, and faces created in the same way.

My Problem:
What I am having trouble with, is joining primitives together, especially when I don't seem to have the exact number of verts to connect everything. eg. I use a sphere to create a body, and then need to attach an arm to it's side. Well, in my case there aren't enough verts or verts in the right places to join.I would think I could easily add other verts. But this process hasn't gone smoothly.

Is there an easy way to create a vert along the edge of an existing face of a primitive?

Right now I can create a vert but it's not actually where I need it. So than I have to take time to position it in 3D to get it on the right face. I finally get it there but there doesn't seem to be a way to join the vert onto the edge of the face. Only seems to connect verts to other verts.

Why is welding parts such a pain? Is the only method, to select two verts, snap them together, then weld them?

It takes a really long time, especially making sure the right verts are selected.

Why can't I select to faces and join them together? Wouldn't that make sense?

What do I do if I am joining one section to another and they don't have the same number of verts?


Any help is greatly appreciated as this is driving me crazy. Especially when cleaning the model, or other operations seem to unweld all of my groups, that I spent hours pain-stakingly welding together.

If I like modeling in Milkshape3D, and if there isn't an easier method, should I create the seperate limbs/groups in Milkshape, and weld them together in another app? Any recommendations?


NOTE*:
Hopefully one of the last MilkShape3D specific questions I'll ask here. I'll join their forums as I seem to have lots of questions.

there really is no way around this mate.
you have to visualize the model in your 3d eye and understand what verts connect to other verts.

you have probably found these tutorials already
http://www.josh.ch/joshch/tutorials/milkshape,first-vertex.html
http://www.josh.ch/joshch/tutorials/milkshape,vertices-faces.html
http://www.josh.ch/joshch/tutorials/milkshape,modelling-human-head.html

keep in mind as well for symmetrical and asymmetrical modeling that you really only need to work on one side, duplicate, flip and then assign vertices, with asymmetrical models you can warp the mirror parts later on to save time.

It also helps to create standard primitive models that you use as a base to work on for all future projects, Think of a low poly humanoid base allowing to start with a base that leads into many models from a basic starting point.

Sometimes its easier to remove a few polygons and then build slowly outwards by creating more vertices from the hole vertices left over.

Dont forget also that your model does not need to be a complete closed mesh.

Imagine a kilt on a Scotsman hiding the legs being connected to the body.
this way you can have a combination of meshed parts and complete limb objects which both can be mesh deformed. I use that method for some monsters. I found that feature exploring warcraft 3 models. Ive added a screenshot as well to demonstrate it.

Thanks indi. I did read one of those tutorials. I'll try using some of your other suggestions. In the beginning I didn't know how to handle holes well. I seem to be getting more comfortable with that.

[EDIT]: Just realized if the following vert issue happens, I can close MS3d and restart and the problem goes away.
My problem with selecting verts, is for some reason MS3D sometimes decides not to refresh all views and I can't see if a vert on the other side is selected. Grrrr. Frustrating.

I started reworking my cartoon foot, and this time created the main shape by placing vertices. I created half and the made a duplicate and mirrored left to right the other half.

During the creation some triangles weren't facing front, while others needed to have vertices reordered in order to display properly. Not sure if i fully understand why that happens.

Here's a shot of the foot with an insertion peg (I'll see if that works). I'm getting better every attempt I think.

If I don't weld per say, but I regroup the objects into one, Is that an ok method?

Heres a visual reference:



Like the peg above, I placed a cylinder on the foot, and then regrouped everything.

you can flip faces to point in the right direction.
you can turn the edge of two polygons.
its best to group each area anyway as your uv mapping will benefit from this.
the symmetry factor can also be applied to the uv map.
one foot map can be used for two feet and you gain half the texture space back again.

make sure you have the latest open gl drivers as well as the latest milkshape version for some issues regarding selection of polys and vertices.

there are unseen and therefore waisted polys at the bottom of your foots leg/ankle area per say.
you dont need to map them unless your character falls apart into bits.
you dont need to group those two elements as that will be harder to uv map then a simple cylinder and a pelt map of the foot from a top view.

Thanks again indi. Alot of what you are saying makes sense now.

- I was symmetry in my modeling, but it never dawned on me to use it for my UVmap.

- I was under the impression that my mesh needed to be completely enclosed and all limbs connected. I was actually trying in the begininning to make it like a Hollow Easter Bunny. That's how alot of the Tuts make it look. But I can see it's not eaasy to do that right from the start. It will be easier for me to stick my limbs in like Mr. Potato head!

- Thanks for the suggestion of builiding primitive models. I really need to save each object seperately so that they can be re used for future creations, and or other characters in a game. I will try to build up my own little object library.

Sometimes its easier to remove a few polygons and then build slowly outwards by creating more vertices from the hole vertices left over. - You know that never dawned on me, but it works really well. I was trying to extrude the face, and it wasn't as easy.

-I'll remove some of those faces from the cylinder, and regroup them separately.


Thanks again for all your help indi. This is my first venture into 3D, and you've helped me a lot. be prepared for when I try to animate!!!

~Zenassem

ok mate good luck
just keep in mind limbs can create tears where two faces overlap.
combinations of the two work well if you hide the seam tears

Thanks indi,

You really have taught me alot. I had to mow the lawn today, and it gave me the idea to model a simple mower (I have a ride-on so that might be next). I've tried to implement some of the suggestions you gave me.

I'll try redoing my Mole Ninja tomorrow.

I'm starting to understand what I'm doing a little bit more each hour. Thanks to your help. Updating OpenGl drivers seems to have solved the mysteriously vanishing vertex highlights. Yay!!!

Here's some WIPS pics (I'm trying to keep a mid-detail look, a little higher than low poly, but not exactly Hi-poly.)

So far...
Verts:1015
Triangles:1728
(*I have some poly's to delete still, especially the underside blade cowl, which I just threw in there for size reference)

Wireframe (Engine alone)


Flat Shaded (Engine alone)


Flat Shaded + Blade Cowl


I'm really having fun trying different methods.



EDIT I did some more work. Tired for tonight