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3 Dimensional Chat / New Character

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Jerok
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 06:31 Edited at: 22nd May 2007 06:32
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This is my newest character model(still untextured):



The head still looks a little odd to me but im not sure what is wrong. Comments and critique are greatly appreciated.

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Fungames
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 08:36
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Ears to thin.Eyes,need to be a bit more round.Other than that it's great.

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zenassem
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 16:10
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I'm not too sure about some of proportions.
-Arms/hands seem a bit too long.
-Feet seem small in comparison.
-Upper-body is quite flat (no tapering in both width & depth)throughout it's length.
-The neck might be too long (picture it without the jacket collar).
-The clothing texture, makes the outfit appear like a tin-suit.

This could be a matter of style.

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Jerok
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 17:32
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Quote: "Ears to thin.Eyes,need to be a bit more round."


Changed

Quote: "Arms/hands seem a bit too long. "


It looks that way in this pose. Originally I had them much shorter but they turned out too small when I changed his pose to fit my reference. Will post pic later.

Quote: "Feet seem small in comparison."


Changed

Quote: "-Upper-body is quite flat (no tapering in both width & depth)throughout it's length. "


Not much I can do about that one. I am hoping it will look better after animation.

Quote: "The neck might be too long (picture it without the jacket collar). "


Changed

Quote: "The clothing texture, makes the outfit appear like a tin-suit."


That one is because it doesnt yet have a texture.

Thank you both for the help.
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hessiess
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 17:45 Edited at: 22nd May 2007 17:49
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this thing looks extremly blocky! and the shapes are all wrong. modal people from refrance images. frunt, side and top if nessoesrry



did you modal the face with edgeloops?
people are inposable with any less than 2k quads/ 4k trils

learn blender, you will never regret it.

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Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 23:20
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They arent impossible! Ive seen great humans with half that number. Dont bring up the whole realistic people thread thing again...

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hessiess
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 23:58 Edited at: 22nd May 2007 23:59
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Quote: "They arent impossible! Ive seen great humans with half that number. Dont bring up the whole realistic people thread thing again..."


owwwwwwwww

thay are inposable unless you are 30 meters from the carictor!

learn blender, you will never regret it.
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Raven
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 23:59
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Quote: "people are inposable with any less than 2k quads/ 4k trils"


Trils? aren't they a race from star trek?
I fear the word you're looking for there was "impossible", but to an artist nothing should be counted as impossible. Leave that word to those without imagination.

I could make a "realistic" person with less than 1,000 triangles. It's not that difficult provided you get the shape correct and design the edges for animation. Although I'd say that 2,500 triangles is much better for a more realistic output.

Quite a few Windows games still use 2.5-3k triangles for their adverage mesh density. So to say it's impossible would mean that there are no games currently on the market with recognisable/realistic characters in them.

Hell, Gears of War characters are only 4,000 triangles but they have the depth perception of over 1.5million because they're normal mapped.

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hessiess
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 00:03 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 00:09
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i will always see a lo poly modal! normal mapping just looks fake.
Quote: "
So to say it's impossible would mean that there are no games currently on the market with recognisable/realistic characters in them. "


that is 100% accurate! there are currently no games avaloble witch look remotely realistic

my avarege poly count for a human maxis out my graphics card 100k+quads, i never use trils
Quote: "
fear the word you're looking for there was "impossible", but to an artist nothing should be counted as impossible. Leave that word to those without imagination."


maby not for some people, im a profectionist!

learn blender, you will never regret it.
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Jerok
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 03:56 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 03:56
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Quote: "modal people from refrance images."


I did use a reference. I always use a reference.

Quote: "did you modal the face with edgeloops?"


I saw a thread on that but I didn't really understand how that works but I will look into it.

I guess I forgot to post the poly count. It is 1256 tris. I am still trying to keep my models low-poly as they are all for gaming use.

Anyway heres the pic of it animated (The arms still need some work):

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bond1
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 04:04
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Quote: "Hell, Gears of War characters are only 4,000 triangles but they have the depth perception of over 1.5million because they're normal mapped."



Actually the Gears of War characters have about 10,000 triangles for the locust enemies and 15,000 triangles for the main human characters. Plus two 2048x2048 normal maps.

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Raven
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 04:06
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Quote: "Actually the Gears of War characters have about 10,000 triangles for the locust enemies and 15,000 triangles for the main human characters. Plus two 2048x2048 normal maps."


Checkout UDN, they have details on the models used in Gears of War on there.

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bond1
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 04:16 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 04:18
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Hmm I don't know where they get their info then.

In the book "D'Artiste", Kevin Lanning (the guy from Epic who modelled all the characters) says they were all in the 10,000-15,000 range. Straight from the horses mouth. He even shows wireframe shots, and they definitely aren't 4000 triangles.

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Raven
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 04:40
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maybe they changed it later in development, but UDN is run by epic (Unreal Developer Network) and the ones they have when testing the Unreal 3.x engine are much lower; but there's no armour, weaponry, etc. Just the basic model.

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bond1
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 04:50
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He DOES go on to say later in the book that different LOD's were made from the base 10,000 triangle models, so maybe the version that's on screen most of the time actually IS 4,000 tri's. With the higher LOD only for close-ups. Who knows.

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Raven
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 05:54
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Don't doubt that for a second, most of the time if you skip (using X) you can see low polygon models, and then the texture and normal maps load. Kinda funny ^_^

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zenassem
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 06:29
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it's just my oppinion but I still think

-The arms are too long
-The upper torso too long
-The head too small
-The legs too thin (at the thigh)

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hessiess
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 10:35 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 10:36
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you need to lern where to use more geomarry. the sholders will deform terably at the moment.

you wont get anywere if you try to anamate it in milcshape becose the x exporter atomaticly turns it into limb anomation, witch looks terable

a avarage new cheep computer will run about 150k to 200k polys. there is rilly no point making games with less than this. just find the limit of your computer. theres a program to test this on this form somwere.

hope you can see how this face works, its loop modaled (22k!)


learn blender, you will never regret it.

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indi
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 11:03
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milkshape mesh deforms for me.
erm.
keep up the good work, its getting there mate.

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Raven
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 11:14
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Quote: "you wont get anywere if you try to anamate it in milcshape becose the x exporter atomaticly turns it into limb anomation, witch looks terable"


both exporters, will faithfully export skin&bone animation that is usable in DBP.

Quote: "a avarage new cheep computer will run about 150k to 200k polys. there is rilly no point making games with less than this. just find the limit of your computer. theres a program to test this on this form somwere."


Been through this many many times before with others, really should've had my post about polycounts stickies long ago imo

Alright let's say you're graphics card is a GeForce 6200 or X300, this means you will have roughly 25million polygons per second TnL + Shaders (basic 1-pass Shader 2.0). You want to make sure your game runs at the monitor refresh rate (game standard is 60fps, for 60Hz)

So that means you have ~415,000 polygons you can have populating the scene at any given time. You have to budget this accordingly, in order for you to keep that 60fps so that the game remains smooth. If you waste 200,000 of them on the main character; then that leaves you with only another 215,000 with which to create a believable world and other characters.

To me that seems like poor budgeting, and even worse modeling; given the whole idea behind game modeling is to be as frugel as possible to pack in the most detail. It's all about providing the illusion of detail where none exists..

It's all simple math really.

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hessiess
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 11:28
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Quote: "both exporters, will faithfully export skin&bone animation that is usable in DBP."


not when i was playing around with it 5 months ish ago, it converted everything into limbs, witch work in dbp but they look like a pile of s**t!
and it lacks even basic constraints and waited verts. witch realistic joint deformations are imposable without. it would only be good for mechanical animation

but 10k on the main carictor isant bad bugitting on a new computer. people automaticly go suopa lo poly wen its absolutely not nesesery, unless you are trying to clone a classic game. so meany dbp games only have about 20/30k polys on screen at any one time. witch makes them look seriasly old.

i tend to go for 30 fps, any higher and you just canot tell the difrance!

learn blender, you will never regret it.
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Raven
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 12:28
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Quote: "but 10k on the main carictor isant bad bugitting on a new computer. people automaticly go suopa lo poly wen its absolutely not nesesery, unless you are trying to clone a classic game. so meany dbp games only have about 20/30k polys on screen at any one time. witch makes them look seriasly old.

i tend to go for 30 fps, any higher and you just canot tell the difrance!"


spoken like a true newbie to game development :p

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hessiess
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 14:06
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Quote: "spoken like a true newbie to game development :p"


you know so mutch, then corect me. im not against being proven wrong!

learn blender, you will never regret it.
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Jerok
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 17:27
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Quote: "-The arms are too long
-The upper torso too long
-The head too small
-The legs too thin (at the thigh)
"


After looking at the screen of it animated I think I am going to redo the arms. I will also make the neccesary changes to the other three as you suggested.
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Night Giant
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 19:07 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 19:10
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Quote: "Been through this many many times before with others, really should've had my post about polycounts stickies long ago imo

Alright let's say you're graphics card is a GeForce 6200 or X300, this means you will have roughly 25million polygons per second TnL + Shaders (basic 1-pass Shader 2.0). You want to make sure your game runs at the monitor refresh rate (game standard is 60fps, for 60Hz)

So that means you have ~415,000 polygons you can have populating the scene at any given time. You have to budget this accordingly, in order for you to keep that 60fps so that the game remains smooth. If you waste 200,000 of them on the main character; then that leaves you with only another 215,000 with which to create a believable world and other characters.

To me that seems like poor budgeting, and even worse modeling; given the whole idea behind game modeling is to be as frugel as possible to pack in the most detail. It's all about providing the illusion of detail where none exists..

It's all simple math really."


i haven't been here in a really long time, and back when I was around a lot it seemed Raven was mostly full of hot-air (unless this is a different Raven). But I'm happy/surprised to say that I actually agree with on this. 22,000 polygons on a character is quite a lot for most genres of game, especially 22,000 in the face alone. Part of the art and skill of modeling is the ability to do great things with limited resources, just like that's part of the art and skill of film-making, and game design/development in general. Quality texture work and well thought out geometry can make a low-poly model look great. absolute realism is not necessary in virtual reality simulations, including games. You can hint at realism, and most people's gestalt will fill in the details, to quote you it's "absolutely not nesesery". Optimization should always be the name of the game, and when you are making games for the PC, you should optimize for the lowest common denominator of your market. When 3D for the web hits its stride in a few years all your high-poly modeling skills will only produce ridiculous load times. it'll be the people who are able to create with limited resources that'll be on the forefront of the web design revolution at its outset.

btw: the head you posted looks more like nurbs than polys.

eta: just caught this "maby not for some people, im a profectionist!" haha, love irony.

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hessiess
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 20:04 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 20:13
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Quote: "especially 22,000 in the face alone"


that is NOT a game modal, its just demonstrating edge loops.

Quote: "the head you posted looks more like nurbs than polys.

"


its subdivision serfice modaling with the cage drawn as part of the result. i dont do game modaling, exept for seadome. the cage from that head would be what i would think as a lo poly game modal. it looks fine at 3rd person distance from the camera.

cage, no subserf



learn blender, you will never regret it.

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Night Giant
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Posted: 24th May 2007 08:30
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Quote: "that is NOT a game modal, its just demonstrating edge loops."


ok, well in that case it does it's job quite well. you were talking polys in the whole post and than you're like "look at this!". i thought you were still talking polygons, you didn't make mention of edge loops.

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