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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Do we need to have a ESRB to play/sel your x10 games?(serious problem)

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FPSC Scripts
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 07:43 Edited at: 22nd May 2007 07:47
Hi all.
I heard at some places on the net(a forum) that you need to have a ESRB rating to play/sell your vista games,and first i thought it was a joke but for some reason i start the investigation,and after some hard search on Google i came up with this site:http://www.rampantgames.com/blog/2007/01/is-vista-going-to-destroy-indie-gaming.html
if you read it you see that you need to have a ESRB rating to run your vista games,so then comes the question:do we need ESRB rating to run our X10 games?

yo yo yo.
Thraxas
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 07:59 Edited at: 22nd May 2007 08:00
What is at issue is the new Game Explorer, a one-stop application within Vista designed to make game installation and accessing information about installed games far simpler than previous versions of the operating system. It also makes note of the local rating of those games that have received ratings, and it allows parents to enforce them or not. [In the U.S., the Entertainment Software Rating Board determines the ESRB ratings.] For example, if Game Explorer's "parental controls" are turned on, a 12-year-old could be barred from playing an "M-rated" game which is meant for 17-year-olds and older.

Donahue believes that Vista's new features address the concerns of many parents who fear that their children may have easy access to inappropriate games.

"You can also turn on the scheduling component that limits the hours your child can play," he adds. "You can turn parental controls on or off -- it's really up to you -- but I think parents are looking for this kind of ability."


Taken from this article
Conjured Entertainment
AGK Developer
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 08:04
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
I guess this is more incentive to register at the ESRB.

Quote: "You can turn parental controls on or off -- it's really up to you "

Yeah, and for all the ones that do, I am sure any unrated games will default as mature.

Don't forget to visit Conjured Entertainment
Nyllo
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 10:00
HAHAHA! I will never applie to BBFC rateings of PAL games....still it sucks.

PROJECT NAME - Gates: Attack of the Madman
Mickm
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 14:12
I have used Vista and you do not need a rating to sell your game.
The parent / owner of Vista has full control over whether or not you want yourself/your child to play that game.

Game Explorer from Microsoft is just them trying to protect the game companies. But again you can turn it on / off and allow / disallow games very easily. (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/features/details/gamesexplorer.mspx)
You do not even have to use the Game Explorer. It is totally up the the user.

Do not even worry about Vista, Microsoft isn't going to make you go buy a ESRB for indy games. I don't see this happening any time soon either.

http://www.gamestack.org
http://onlinenotes.gamestack.org
http://onlinebookmarks.gamestack.org
PAS
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 16:57 Edited at: 22nd May 2007 16:57
I agree, it is full control. Honestly, I am not aiming my game towards kids anyways. If you read the sales statistics, there are more adults buying these "mature" games then kids. If the adult buys your games then put a note that they must turn the rating control off. Its not complicated.

K.L. Phair
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 18:31
One thing you may not know is that it costs between $2000 to $4000 to get it rated and certified with ESRB. This will be a big deal for indie developers such as myself.

Good judgment comes with experience. Unfortunately, the experience comes from bad judgment.
FPSC Scripts
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 18:33
Woot,my ESRB game ratngs fears are over

yo yo yo.
Roger Wilco
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 20:04
Besides, who could ever prevent you from selling anything that's not rated? I don't think Microsoft would put their time to attacking indie developers without ratings.

"Or perhaps we're just one of god's little jokes?"
Candle_
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 20:09
PAS
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 20:59
The only bad thing about not being rated is that you cannot get it into big stores like Best buy etc. who are retail memebers of the ESRB and who will only sell ESRB games for PR.

I got in touch with over 200 gaming centers and they didn't care if it was rated. I will do what Tigrs did and create my own rating for free. When I get it set up, I will let you guys know ok. That way we have a FPSC rating board, but its free.

K.L. Phair
Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 01:49
Quote: "One thing you may not know is that it costs between $2000 to $4000 to get it rated and certified with ESRB. This will be a big deal for indie developers such as myself."

No, I did not know, as I have not sent in my info to get registered yet.
That does sound a little pricey, but...
Quote: "The only bad thing about not being rated is that you cannot get it into big stores like Best buy etc. who are retail memebers of the ESRB and who will only sell ESRB games for PR. "

And, BestBuy is not the only major distributor who has that policy.

So, if you want to seriously promote/sell your creation, then the ESRB Rating is a sound investment.
I too, cannot afford such a high cost for a rating.
Besides, with no competition, the ESRB looks like a monopoly on software ratings.

"...this will not do." ...Pink Floyd

Quote: "I will do what Tigrs did and create my own rating for free. When I get it set up, I will let you guys know ok. That way we have a FPSC rating board, but its free."

That's the best thing to do. We need so many ratings that the parents are confused to the point that they won't care about them anymore. (oops, alot of them don't care now)
How hard is it to rate games anyway? That's not $2000 worth of work!
It does take time out of your day though, so I don't know about doing them for free.

Maybe there needs to be a "non-profit" group that does Entertainment Software Ratings for a low flat fee. ($50 - $100 per title)
That would be easy money man. (cough cough)



I searched the ESRB game listings for "Blood and Gore" and found over 70 matches for the "T" teen rating.

The ESRB ratings don't matter, unless you want to sell you game in stores like BestBuy.

Don't forget to visit Conjured Entertainment
Shadow heart
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 02:21
wow yes that's a relief. besides I can't afford an ESRB anyways. Anyway you can rate your game with tigr's, so wait if you can do that you can go and make an icon on photoshop that says +12 then write "teen content" on it. so that's what i'd do, no one's stopping you from putting that on there and selling it, it'sn not an esrb. whcih means ya you can't put it in major distibutors, but there are lot's of stores that will take it. Not to mention, digital distribution. ...lol that's cool. whu forget ESRB, untill i get 2000 dollars in my pocket.

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!
PAS
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 05:50
Quote: "And, BestBuy is not the only major distributor who has that policy."


I was just using Best Buy as an example. It includes places like Wal-Mart, Meijers, Game Stop, Circuit City, etc.

Quote: "That's the best thing to do. We need so many ratings that the parents are confused to the point that they won't care about them anymore. (oops, alot of them don't care now)
How hard is it to rate games anyway? That's not $2000 worth of work!
It does take time out of your day though, so I don't know about doing them for free.

Maybe there needs to be a "non-profit" group that does Entertainment Software Ratings for a low flat fee. ($50 - $100 per title)
That would be easy money man. (cough cough)"


I will be one of those people to seriously start a rating board. I wont charge anythign though, not that it would be easy money, but just because the ESRB is a monopoly. I will relate it as a EGameStudio rating, but unlike Tigrs, I will give a review and some perks for geting the rating which will be for free. Such as, including a review of your game on my broadcast, highlight your game on the review board website, (I will be building that within the next 18 days), have your game and studio as a registered member of the board, give you a free logo, and send a free review of your game that you can use to show others the recomendation. Since it will not be paid, it will not be biased. This will be non-profit non chargeable. I was trying to do this with Tigrs, but they did not repsond to my plan that I outlined for them. So, I will do it myself and I will make a better service then they offer.


Quote: "The ESRB ratings don't matter, unless you want to sell you game in stores like BestBuy."


Exactly, and I have no big loss in not sellign it through best buy. As I said in other posts. Sell 15,000 games in a year, make $10 profit off each game and you have 6 figures. With that you cna reinvest and make a better game.

Quote: "Anyway you can rate your game with tigr's, so wait if you can do that you can go and make an icon on photoshop that says +12 then write "teen content" on it. so that's what i'd do, no one's stopping you from putting that on there and selling it, it'sn not an esrb. whcih means ya you can't put it in major distibutors, but there are lot's of stores that will take it. "


Why settle for Tigrs. They do not give you any support. You just download a picture. Wow, big deal. The eSRB is an advisory board. The only way to beat that is create a competing advisory board. You get it well publicized enough and you will get major support frrm other people. So Thats why I am creating not just a icon but a board that is looking for the interest of developers and is no cost. I will succeed, because with everything else, I am emerging successful. This is another great goal to reach. Also my game will be the first to use this rating most likely. I am going to do a promotion with it as well. Ill make an announcement when its ready.

K.L. Phair
Shadow heart
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 07:33 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 07:34
what I ment PAS is that many people love putting age marks on there games and thers not rules for that. But yeah eSRB does give you tips, etc.

like a 13 plus sign i made. but yeah i'ts nice to get support for your game that would be cool if you starte d baord.

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!

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PAS
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 07:42 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 07:42
Thats a good idea. I could do that with my rating system. Put what age and up and then we would place it with the logo.

K.L. Phair
Shadow heart
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 08:12 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 08:13
i updated them abit.



what do you think?

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!

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PAS
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 08:34
That looks even better. What design progrma did you use?

K.L. Phair
Shadow heart
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 08:47 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 08:53
art explosion pub. pro. i love it,, it's the best!!! anyway i have been working on ages 8+ 10+ 13+ in different colors. so far i have green, blue, white icy, and brown.

EDIT: Heres the updates to it.



to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!

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PAS
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Posted: 24th May 2007 05:14 Edited at: 24th May 2007 05:17
@ Shadow Heart: Looks good.

Announcement: OK everyone, this has to do with ratings. I have begun to start a new project doing this and I have everything together and it should be up before next Friday. The difference between this rating board and other free ones, is that your game will be reviewed and not only list the appropriate age group, but will also have the review posted on the website where parents or anyone else can read the review and see why it received the rating. Now the purpose of the rating is not to say if it is a good game or not, but rather to judge the age appropriate content. On the rating logo it will say the games name and the studio who produced it to make sure that each game stands out and the review was made for that game specifically. Unlike other reviews, it will not have a E for Everyone or T for teen. It will have specific ages such as 12+, 17+ all the way up to 18. It will have abbreviateions like V, for violance, N for nudity etc. Then it will have a link to that games specific web page listed on the review boards website where the parent or anyone else can go and review the full review of the game without searching for it. Each game will also be assigned a number where my group can keep track of each game to make sure all reviews done are really done by us and we will maintian records for up to 18 months. So for the first 18 months we will hold the records of your review. There will also be other benefits such as making a broadcast on our gamers network about your game and review as well as other things I have not sorted out yet. This should help people and make this review board a constructive entity that will hopefully build a reputation for maintianing the integrity and trustworthiness of giving proper reviews for games. Places like Tigrs, you give your own review. So this is like a ESRB and Tigrs mix, where like Tigrs it is free. Anyone who gets the review will be able to place the review logos on their games that we will custom make for them. So I am hoping people will utilize this free service as it will be something that can give independent devolopers a place to go for proper reviews that will be free. I will make a new thread when I have all the details sorted out and the website done. I will have it done no later then June 5th.

K.L. Phair
FPSC Scripts
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Posted: 24th May 2007 05:24
sounds good

yo yo yo.
PAS
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Posted: 24th May 2007 05:30 Edited at: 24th May 2007 15:50
FPSC Scripts: Thanks. I figured that if you did a rating system and let all the developers self rate their game, then honestly what was the point as it is not as accurate as having a third party rate it. I hope that due to the rating for content and not gameplay, that this will be something that will be popular among developers, but also looked upon parents and gameplayers alike as a reputable review source. I got the idea for having a website listing as I saw this on a movie review website. They listed how many cusswords the movie had, scenes, etc. It was very detailed. It was a independent rating board but they were widely used due to their accuracy. I hope to build that here as well. Thanks for your support.

K.L. Phair
FPSC Scripts
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Posted: 24th May 2007 06:21
dont mention it.

yo yo yo.
Slayer222
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Posted: 24th May 2007 06:52
sweet idea PAS. Can you make those ratings .jpg or .tga? I can't see them.
*Slayer_2

EOT
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Shadow heart
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Posted: 24th May 2007 06:53 Edited at: 24th May 2007 06:53
holy grapes dude. PAS that looks good, I am releasing some free icons if you need them......

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=106874&b=4

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!
PAS
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Posted: 24th May 2007 15:47 Edited at: 24th May 2007 15:52
Quote: "sweet idea PAS. Can you make those ratings .jpg or .tga? I can't see them."


I have not posted the ratings yet. The ones displayed are form ShadowHeart. I have not posted mine yet. But yes, I can do BMP, TGA, JPEG, Corel Draw or Adobe Photoshop, and many other file formats. I have Corel Draw and Adobe Photoshop, Maya, 8 and othe rprograms. So I cna do a lot of different extenmsions. The only stipulation I will have in the license is that the images cnanot be changed to maintian that the rating has everything on it needed such as website page where you cna find the rating, proper age, abbreviateions etc. I dont want someone modifying it.

Quote: "holy grapes dude. PAS that looks good, I am releasing some free icons if you need them......"


That will work. I will email you with some different ideas I have.

K.L. Phair
xplosys
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Posted: 24th May 2007 16:48
PAS,

This is a gallant thing to try and I wish you well. I only hope you know what you're getting yourself into. Let's take a moment and figure out why the ESRB charges what they do. (besides because they are a monopoly)

The average game has about 20 hours of game play, give or take, and a number of ways to play resulting in different scenarios, not to mention eggs and the like. If you plan to review every game and rate it, you are looking at approximately three days work per game to play it through, review and rate it, and do the paperwork.

Then there is the issue of registering each game and company and the agreements, with all attached documentation and game scenarios, because unless you make the developer responsible for disclosure of all content, there will be legal issues, and that takes lawyers.

There is a lot more, but you get the idea. It's not a cake walk, and it takes a few workers a few days to do it right. That's why TIGRS makes it a voluntary rating system and leaves everything up to the developer.

You may want to consider a scenario such as this:

-The developer must register himself and each title.
-He must sign an agreement to the effect that he will deliver the complete game, his requested rating, and all content documentation to you. This documentation will have to be developed. (forms to fill and images/clips of game play to include)
-Unless you have the time to actually review each submission, you will have to rely on the submitted request and provided info to either accept or reject the rating.
-Once rated, the title and the developers info is added to the website so that any concerned individual may look it up by name or number and find the rating and contact info.
-Unless you plan to have a legal team, or a disclosure on the rating image itself that states something to the effect that it is not binding, then you will need to make the developer responsible for the rating, and not yourself.

Any way you do it, it's going to be a lot of work. So best of luck to you on this. I think it's a worthwhile venture and if I can help, please let me know.
Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

PAS
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Posted: 24th May 2007 17:41
Quote: "-The developer must register himself and each title.
-He must sign an agreement to the effect that he will deliver the complete game, his requested rating, and all content documentation to you. This documentation will have to be developed. (forms to fill and images/clips of game play to include)
-Unless you have the time to actually review each submission, you will have to rely on the submitted request and provided info to either accept or reject the rating.
-Once rated, the title and the developers info is added to the website so that any concerned individual may look it up by name or number and find the rating and contact info.
-Unless you plan to have a legal team, or a disclosure on the rating image itself that states something to the effect that it is not binding, then you will need to make the developer responsible for the rating, and not yourself."


Well, I was thinking of doing this wihen I found out about Tigrs. I wanted to do a joint venture where I would assist them with all this but I never heard back, so I was planning on doing this in the fall. However, since my game will be comign out in a few weeks, I decided I would use my own game as an example first of how to do it. I know that at the begining I iwll only be able to do so many reviews at once. However, if this proves successful, I would build a larger team to do this.

Quote: "The developer must register himself and each title."

I was thinking of this. I decided ot have atracking number for eahc game and keep a public record of it on the website for 18 months so thta I could have arefernce number to go back and make sure that the game was relaly reviewed by us.

Quote: "He must sign an agreement to the effect that he will deliver the complete game, his requested rating, and all content documentation to you. This documentation will have to be developed. (forms to fill and images/clips of game play to include)"


I have a lwayer drafting everything up and each person trying to obtain a review will have to consent to an agreement such as not modifying their game, if they do, resubmitting it to be reviewed if they chagne the content if they wish to display the rating, and the board judging the game on its own rating scale and that it should not be compared ot the scales of the ESRB or nay other group.But this is why we would provid a detailed account of why we gave the rating what it was.

Quote: "Unless you have the time to actually review each submission, you will have to rely on the submitted request and provided info to either accept or reject the rating."


I would have each submission reviewed. This is why the submissions would be a first come first serve and would be done thoroughly. I would only be able to handle so many submissions at once, but it would be free so that is to be expected. Maybe I could add in a priority review or a review in so many days for a small charge. What do you think of that? I am not tyring to charge, but if someone needed it in a time frame, that may be th eonly way to guarantee that. Do you think thta would be abad idea? Free submissions for reviews done first come first serve, immediate reviews small fee?

Quote: "Once rated, the title and the developers info is added to the website so that any concerned individual may look it up by name or number and find the rating and contact info."

On the rating itself I would have the exact URL of where to find that games specific rating. That would save the person time from looking i tup and would provide them information on the game itself so thta it can be reviewed immediately and why it was rated the way it was.

Quote: "Unless you plan to have a legal team, or a disclosure on the rating image itself that states something to the effect that it is not binding, then you will need to make the developer responsible for the rating, and not yourself."


I do have a legal team, but it was suggested that the board would not be respnsible for the rating as the contents of the game coulkd be chnaged.. They think it would not be likely as it could provide legal issues for someone who did it, but that would be an extra step to protect the board itself. Having that disclosure on the rating would discourage the rating a small bit, but I owuld rather play it safe as not everyone out there is honest. I believe in protecting my own interests first as anyone could submit a game and then change it. There is no way to make it fool proof, so I think that this idea would be best.

I think if other people who cna do this should do this. As it was said, besides the eSRB, what other boards are there? If you made a board so popular, it owuld have ot be noticed by the stores and other places if the public was referencing it. When the ESRB first started it was a simple idea to protect the public. Now it has stores sign on saying they will only distribute games with a ESRB rating. With no one ot rival it, they cna get away with it. I manot a millionaire, but I am going ot be producing adds and alreayd have promotions going, so I will try to be some type of alternative rating that is structured. If this goes well in a few months I iwlll run it by my professors at my college who work for places like ILM and see if I can get some support from them for it. At the very least they will give me suggestions and help me devleop some more ideas.

So Xplosys, what other ideas do you have to make this a very structured and reputable board? Anything you got would be great. I could definitely use some help in doing this, so let me know your ideas by either posting here or emailing me. I am sure you have good ideas as you have built FPS Free and have been successful in marketing other peoples services. I still think the service could be elaborated on and I know I could include more benefits. I just dont know what yet. I have some ideas I am toying with. I will let you know my other ideas probably by sometime tommorow as I will be working them out today. Thanks for your support.

K.L. Phair
Slayer222
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Posted: 24th May 2007 18:17
Wow PAS! that took me 5 minutes to read I think this is a great idea and after it gains enough popularity it could begin to rival ERSB,
*Slayer_2
P.S. A bit off topic but do you have any FPSC games in your store yet?

EOT
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PAS
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Posted: 24th May 2007 18:28
As of yet, no. Evne oddlabs has been lagging on geting their game in my store. But its ok. All the games I have liste din the store is only half of their quantity that I have in stock. So far mine iwll be the first FPSC game to be listed in my store. I ma going to be setting up a short demo for it soon. The game centers will be geting it before it is released and will be handing out demos in their area in July. They will receive the game for their centers at the beginning of June. My aim is to rival the ESRB, (I am not as rich as them but I will try my best, and honestly I may not change anything but its worth a try), and have a rating system in place that is fre. What do you think about the idea of a priority rating for a small fee? Do you think it would be wrong for someone not to wait in line that they could pay to get it immediately reviewed? Thanks for your support.

K.L. Phair
Slayer222
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Posted: 24th May 2007 20:11 Edited at: 24th May 2007 20:12
I think it should go like this: There are three spots in a Que line and if one or more is open they can email you (or whoever will rate the games) The first email there will get the spot. The first in line is the next to be rated (not the one being rated) but as soon as you start rating someone take them off the Que and move everybody up one. Second and third in line are pretty obvious, third is rated after the second and second after first etc. You could make the line bigger if it got really crowded. Anyhow If someone pays like $25 USD (or whatever you want but don't make it too cheap for obvious reasons) then they get to cut in front of everybody and if you are currently working on someones put it on hold and work on the payed rating until it's finished. You should finish all payed ratings before free ones if you ever get more than one at once. For the Que line I would make a public page on your site that has the free line and the pay line listed as well as whose is being worked on and who is on hold. Also put up a donation button so people who want can donate to help support your free rating system. Sorry if this sounds confusing and if you don't understand I can try and clarify it more. I think it's time someone took ERSB down a few notches, they have grown fat and rich because they are the most popular rating around and because they are required in so many places. I think ERSB needs a rival, otherwise indie games are going to be squeezed out of the market (except for the Internet of course but nothing beats selling your game in a store),
*Slayer_2
P.S. If I ever finish my game you have a customer here, for the rating and the store. Sorry for the rant.

EOT
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PAS
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Posted: 24th May 2007 20:45
Slayer222: I emailed you just now. Feelf ree to break this down in a email to me and also if you could address the htings I stated in my email back to me in a email response it owuld be greatly appreciated. I appreciate your continual support.

K.L. Phair
PAS
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Jan 2007
Location: Ann Arbor, MI. USA
Posted: 24th May 2007 21:40 Edited at: 24th May 2007 21:41
Ok everyone, Xplosys has supplied me with some good information and I am going to start sketching things up for the rating board. Hopefully me and Xplosys cna collaborate some ideas, (he has been giving me lots of good input, so he deserves a lot of the credit), and then this should turn out very well. I will let you know when I have more specific details. Within 6 days I should have a specific update if not sooner.

K.L. Phair
Slayer222
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2007
Location: Wherever I feel like
Posted: 24th May 2007 22:11
OK sent you a (very long) reply.
*Slayer_2

EOT
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Check it out here: http://eliteops.piczo.com/?cr=6&rfm=y

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