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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Workshop: Dealing with Publishers - Interested?

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Ertlov
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 12:02
As some of you know, my main job is not leading the "Anderson" developers team, but working for an major (well, at least major in Europe) Publisher. As I´d like to contribute ti the community here, I ask if there is any interest in having a "how to deal with a Publisher to get your game on the shelves" Workshop here in these boards.

It`s not a bug, it`s a feature
fallen one
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 12:39 Edited at: 22nd May 2007 13:18
Hi Erlov, which publisher do you work for? Its not Jowood is it?
Screwed Over
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 13:44
it sounds interesting, but i would like to know what publisher you work for and see some proof, its not that i dont trust you, its just that recently theres been alot of pirates around, not only on these boards but other boards as well.

current projects and versions:
SO| Music²:v1.4 SO| Packer:v0.2 SO| WebSource²:v0.2
Ertlov
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 14:15
I`m Ivan Ertlov, Head of the Community Management at JoWooD Productions, here some proof:

http://forum.jowood.com/member.php?find=lastposter&t=141550

The fact that the official Anderson Forum is hosted at JoWooD, should also be a clue:

http://forum.jowood.com/forumdisplay.php?f=537

And if you have Gothic 3, The Guild 2 or SpellForce 2 at home, read the credits

It`s not a bug, it`s a feature
fallen one
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 14:29
Ive dealt with Jowood before I had a pitch went to a Oliver Schindler sometime in Feb last year, perhaps you know him, didn't say a word, not a yes no or maybe, publishers that do that are not my favorites to be frank, takes 2 seconds to mail a message saying no if that's the case, there are quite a few publishers that only communicate when it suits them rather than being courteous, it starts a bad relationship right from the start and doesn't bode well for any future relationships, the game was to be ported to the unreal 3 engine, that's a pretty expensive engine so it cuts down a lot of publishers, we had a deal with a publisher but the deal fell through, then I was lead to other publishers on other projects, if the money isn't there it don't get made, you go where the money is.
Ertlov
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 14:34
Quote: "Ive dealt with Jowood before I had a pitch went to a Oliver Schindler sometime in Feb last year"


Oliver worked only for a short time at JoWooD and left the company soon after you`ve dealt with him. Your case was not the only one where the policy "Each proposal deserves attention" had been breached.

It`s not a bug, it`s a feature
fallen one
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 15:03
I should imagine publishers do have a quick turn around, I get the idea a lot of publishers staff would be just as happy selling shampoo as they would games, they seem to have only sales backgrounds and happen to end up selling games at that time, and above them are just glorified accountants, some also seem to work for themselves and not the company, their only interest is protecting their job and salary, politics and self interest seem to be the order of the day for the 'individuals' of the company.

I'm glad you now run a policy of "Each proposal deserves attention". developers don't forget, especially ones trying to work up the ladder, when they get higher up the rung they like to do the kicking as well.
PAS
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 16:54
Ertlov: I am familiar with Jowood as I sell Gothic 2 in my store. You guys work with Atari right?

K.L. Phair
Ertlov
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 17:24
Yes, depending on product & territory, we work together with Atari, CDV, Koch, Deep Silver, Eidos...

...and we bought Dreamcatcher a few months ago to get better access to US and Canadian market.

It`s not a bug, it`s a feature
Slayer222
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 17:28
I'm interested, not sure if I would take an offer but could be very helpful to some people.
*Slayer_2

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Ertlov
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 18:10
Heck, I´m not in the position to offer anything to anyone, I just plan to tell you how to talk to publishers, how to present your game and so on in order to rise your chance of getting a contract. So it`s a guide for all of those who want to make commercial games.

Here some basics:

1. Why a publisher?

Pro: Because he has the connections and PR power to get your game on shelves and into the focus of the public. Plus, he pays you money for your game. If you get a milestone-based pubdlishing contract during early stages of game creation, you`ll have money you can put into the quality of your game. If you`ve got enough money aside or 20 talented guys on your side working for free, look out for a "finished goods" deal.

The con is, that in most cases, you sacrifice a little bit of your creative freedom and depending on the contract you make, you even sell the intellectual property of your creation. In worse cases, you sell your soul to the devil. And believe me, some publishing are written by creative lawyers (the PURE evil) in order to suck all out of you and giving as little as possible back.

1.1. Deals:

Finished Goods: Your game is ready, the quality is exactely like you wanted it, all the features you planed are implemented and working. Gratulations, try to get a finished goods deal, which has to include a fixed sum and royalities or a really HIGH fixed sum without Roys. Royality-only is a risk you should think off twice before signing such a contract, not only are you depending on good sales, but also on the publisher telling you the truth about that.

Classic publishing contract: The contract is made during developement, so you bind yourself to the publisher before the game is ready, he`s funding your game developement. You`ll most likely work on a milestone basis, so if you deliver a certain milestone )like Alpha, Beta, Gold Master), you get a certain percentage of the agreed total developing sum. These deals can also be based either on a fixed sum only or fixed sum & roys. In most cases, the conditions are worse and the influence of the publisher is higher than with finished goods.


So I see most of you thinking now "Hell, I knew all of this, tell us better HOW to get such a contract".

Yes, I`ll do, but later this night or tomorrow...

It`s not a bug, it`s a feature
Slayer222
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 18:50
Thanks I didn't know most of that actually,
*Slayer_2

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Trinity Pictures
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 18:58
very cool. The finished version of this should go in the FPSC hints and tips guide.

Artist/Modellor of Encrypto Studios
fallen one
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 19:43
some examples of royalty percentage deals would be nice, Ive always been told there is no fixed rate, its whatever you can prize out of them, but some ballparks would be good for reference.

Id also say from experience that getting money out of a publisher is like getting blood out of a stone, go for a finished game if your a new studio, that term new is very relative as well, its like the TV award show, they hard out a prize on TV to the best newcomer actor/comedian/performer etc, even though the guy has been in the industry like 10 years before becoming know, if you don't have a proven industry record its very hard getting funding, and then if you have successful games, then you have money, so you don't need publisher development money, so its a bit of a mute point, the only time I think one would be getting funding is if you was under an almost work for hire type deal with very little in percentages or none at all.
PAS
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 20:55
This information is delaing with a corporate publisher who is going to fund your game. You guys, FPSC is a self made program. Even with DBPro, Torque or even Lawmaker, you do not need a corporate publisher to do all this. Buy your model packs, contract people to make your stuff, fund it yourself. So if you want to sell your soul to the devil go for it, but with creative marketing techniques you can get your game out there. You may ot slel millions, but would you be happy if your game made as little as $5,000 for doing somehting you enjoyed. That would be money you could use to get a more popular game engine and build another game.

K.L. Phair
Ertlov
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 21:45
Quote: "some examples of royalty percentage deals would be nice, Ive always been told there is no fixed rate, its whatever you can prize out of them, but some ballparks would be good for reference."


Ranging from 2.5%-5% as bonus in addition to a fixed sum, over 7.5% to 12.5% for Roy deals with unknown teams and up to 20% what I`ve seen only for Nintendo DS games. Pay attention, that sometimes the fixed sum is called "against Royalities", what means, if the Royalities don`t reach the amount of the fixed sum, you`ll even have to pay money back...

Quote: "You guys, FPSC is a self made program."


Yes it is - is it?

We had a total of 25 people working on Anderson, and sometimes even that felt like being too short of manpower. It depends on the game, not on the Engine. With 3DGamestudio, a German Company made driving simulators for driving school, a huge commercial success and with a team bigger as small gaming companies.

It`s not a bug, it`s a feature
fallen one
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 21:55 Edited at: 22nd May 2007 21:57
I have to agree with PAS, publishers have you by the short and curlies if you need their money, which is what you tend to need building games in expensive engines that cost thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands, but fpsc is so cheap, the only money you need is development money, now if you get creative instead, and think out of the box, and have some talent, you can make a game by yourself, in that case what is the publisher giving you.

As far as marketing, Id like to know what they actually do there, the games I have been into have mostly been publicised by the developers while they developed the game, unless the publicity publishers do gets unnoticed by me, I cant see where the big marketing figures we get told go to, TV commercials will cost, I can see that will take some money, perhaps a lot goes on greasing the wheels, bribes to magazines to give good reviews etc, that type of thing.

I have a publisher knocking on the door at the moment, but as far as I see it, I feel like doing the game on my own and then going to the highest bidder when Ive done, and If I don't like what they offer, Ill sell it myself and publicise it myself, I don't think you necessarily need store space to sell a game, I wont be the only developer with this attitude, Its like I said before, publishers have been having their way for some time and giving developers the run around, I think as developers we don't have to put up with that, we don't have to license high priced engines to run the same games to make more time consuming and expensive graphics, personally Ive always thought the hardware companies are in bed with the decision makers in the software companies, they are hand in hand with each other lining both their pockets, for the indie, get creative, don't try and make GOW2, make a new creative game that doesn't need 50 people working on it and 1 million pound game engines. do your own thing and make the publisher work on your terms and if they don't, sell it yourself and make them understand you are prepared to do so, you are doing them a favour not the other way around.

I think eventually all games will be bought online and developers will sell there own games, its so difficult getting a foot in for the new developer that either no one new will come in, or they will just use a different business model.
fallen one
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 22:11 Edited at: 22nd May 2007 22:12
Quote: "Ranging from 2.5%-5% as bonus in addition to a fixed sum, over 7.5% to 12.5% for Roy deals with unknown teams and up to 20% what I`ve seen only for Nintendo DS games. Pay attention, that sometimes the fixed sum is called "against Royalities", what means, if the Royalities don`t reach the amount of the fixed sum, you`ll even have to pay money back..."


Don't you mean 0-25% for new developers with the publisher funding the whole thing, get big enough or have something hot, or paid for by yourself then you can start dictating, these arnt the figures I hear about if this is for ready games or partly completed games, and even an unknown like me has negotiated more than what you list here, though I don't bring nothing to the table to sell, I'm talking having work completed on the title.
PAS
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 23:20 Edited at: 23rd May 2007 05:15
Due to this publisher showing up here, its time for me to show you my trade secrets. I will show you how cheap it really is to produce medi promotion for your products.

Radio: Go here http://www.bid4spots.com/HomePage.aspx for radio spots (US only). You make bid for how much you will pay for aspot, but unlike eBay the radio stations lower their bids to earn your business. So if you start off makign a bid for $10, you will pay no more then $10 for that spot.

TV: This article here http://r144.com/fjna4p20520.htm says it all. Yes, I have been quoted cable TV spots for as low as $5 form Comcast for non primetime, and no more then 2$30 for a prime time spot.

All other forms of advertising, sattellite, newspaeprs etc.: This company is a great resource. not as cheap as some of the others, but you will never get cheaper then by oging ot the source in some forms of advertising. http://www.media-atlantic.com/gpage6.html

I hope this is useful. These are just a couple of the many resources I have found over the years. They should help those indie developers who are advertising. Please note that these are US advertising venues a sI live in the states. I do not know to many other advertising venues besides here in the US.

Other reosurces to check out

http://spotrunner.reachlocal.net/
http://www.cableairtime.com/
http://adedge.com/

I hope this helps and sheds light that yes there are ways to do it on a low budget and get great results.

K.L. Phair
Ertlov
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 23:24
Fallen One, you`ve got to be cautious.

When you get offered 25% it`s most likely with the additon "from breakeven", what means that you get the first buck after the game has paid itself of for the publisher.

Also it`s tricky if the percentage is calculated based upon revenues or profits.

So if you really know a publisher willing to fund the developement AND pay you 25% of the revenue from the first sold unit on, please tell me who, I´m gonna change the sides and be only developer then....

It`s not a bug, it`s a feature
Candle_
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Posted: 22nd May 2007 23:56
One problem you have here is I would say 90% here are under the age of 18.
Most have grand dreams of making it big.

xplosys
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 00:24
Quote: "One problem you have here is I would say 90% here are under the age of 18. "


Well, not so much a problem as just a fact. I appreciate you taking the time to do this and I'm sure it will help some. Most of the members here are very young, but even in my short time here I have seen more older people joining or coming over from the "big boy" forum. With the latest updates and the "envelope pushing" by members here, we are beginning to see that FPSC can actually make a viable/sellable game.

That being said, the numbers will be continue to be extremely small, both due to age and the nature of such things. Not everyone who uses the program can make a game, although I have seen a game go to market that in my opinion, looked like it was made by a grade school child. That's probably not fair to the grade school child.

Well, on to the point. Most of those who do make a game to sell will no doubt do it on a shoestring budget and handle the promotion/sales/publication by themselves or with the aid of someone like PAS, with whom they feel less intimidated and have less to loose should things go bad.

I believe you are trying to inform us more so than sell us on yourself or your company, and so I will ask you a favor. From your experience, could you be more informative about pitfalls to avoid, hints to make the games more appealing, avenues of promotion, anything which would better the chances of marketing and sales without the use of a publishing service such as yours.

If not, I understand.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

fallen one
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 00:47
Quote: "When you get offered 25% it`s most likely with the additon "from breakeven", what means that you get the first buck after the game has paid itself of for the publisher."


Ive been offered a lot more than 25% and yes its from when the game has covered its costs, but Ive never negotiated a game I didn't have 50-70% of the dev cost coming from me, so that's perhaps why I can get more than 25%

Quote: "Also it`s tricky if the percentage is calculated based upon revenues or profits. "


I cant see of any other way to calculate it. They pay taxes and do their books, cost and profit should be readily available, if it isn't the tax man shows his displeasure in a hurry, they should have the figures.

Quote: "So if you really know a publisher willing to fund the development AND pay you 25% of the revenue from the first sold unit on, please tell me who, I´m gonna change the sides and be only developer then...."


nope I don't either, like I said I cover 50-70% of the dev costs, and then its not from the first unit sold, but my percentage is significantly more than 25%, I have even negotiated their part of the dev costs as non recoupable as well, as in they cant claim it back on the products selling, marketing and distribution costs they can, but that was with the publisher having no budget and the game requiring hard work from my end to make up for that, and the fact I knew they would have a small marketing budget, if any at all, so I dint see what costs they had to lay out for.

I will note that unless the publisher is very large, the money they have to spend is so tight, its virtually to small to be in the business, I hear these massive budgets being claimed by the big major publishers, frankly I cant see them spending those kind of figures, I mean 20 million etc, its all hype, do the figures yourself, look at the sales figures that would be needed to cover the costs.

The cut off to the publishers small developers work with is a drop in the ocean compared to whats claimed by the big wigs, there is a major cutoff in budget size, in fact its so small as its worth not bothering with them and looking for smaller games one can make oneself, safer markets with small outlays and quicker turnovers, they are there if you look hard enough.
Ertlov
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 00:50
Quote: "Quote: "Also it`s tricky if the percentage is calculated based upon revenues or profits. "

I cant see of any other way to calculate it. They pay taxes and do their books, cost and profit should be readily available, if it isn't the tax man shows his displeasure in a hurry, they should have the figures.
"


Ah, my bad English was the origin of misunderstanding this one.

What I wanted to say is "Look carefully if you get the percentage from the revenues OR profits, because it`s a huge difference!

It`s not a bug, it`s a feature
Ertlov
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 00:52
Quote: "I believe you are trying to inform us more so than sell us on yourself or your company, and so I will ask you a favor. From your experience, could you be more informative about pitfalls to avoid, hints to make the games more appealing, avenues of promotion, anything which would better the chances of marketing and sales without the use of a publishing service such as yours."


Yes, I´ll do, and I have to say that I (we) are now way a publishing service, and I´m here not for doing business, but for promoting my game. I`ll write down a few hints and post them tomorrow, because it`s pretty late here...

It`s not a bug, it`s a feature
fallen one
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 02:17
Quote: "What I wanted to say is "Look carefully if you get the percentage from the revenues OR profits, because it`s a huge difference!"


From profits of course, huge difference on the retail, perhaps not always on the wholesale, depends what the costs are, printing a few DVDs and a case book etc (that's if its just the PC market, bit different of course for the console market with its higher initail outlay), then distribution, that's not a massive cost, now I'm sure large publishers have lots of costs and lots to take out of the pie, but at the lower end publishers are little more than distributors, in fact they start out as that, picking up tiny distribution territories from bigger publishers, these small publishers don't carry huge costs, If someone is fronting you serious money and banging money into marketing, then fine, they are running costs and taking risks, but if it ain't there don't give them a big piece of the pie, If your new, you ll be paying for the dev anyhow, what they front is just a courtesy that they believe actually pays something of significance on the dev costs, which it doesn't, Id be interested to hear what you have on what publishers are looking for etc.

But from my experience its not a place I would follow, you need something to sell in the marketplace, pitching takes a whole load of time and if you don't get a contract, that's money and time down the pan, plus it will always go to the publisher with the deepest pockets, the publisher your talking to gets their salary paid, while your pitching your spending money and not getting paid, its a one way relationship, and at the end of the day, the guy in acquisitions may just be using you to fill his quoter out, makes it look like hes active at acquiring product.

Better time is spent making a 'full' game ready to ship, but I'm still interested on what you have on the matter.
PAS
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 05:27
Quote: "I believe you are trying to inform us more so than sell us on yourself or your company, and so I will ask you a favor. From your experience, could you be more informative about pitfalls to avoid, hints to make the games more appealing, avenues of promotion, anything which would better the chances of marketing and sales without the use of a publishing service such as yours.

If not, I understand."


I agree with Xplosys. Puting the information down one time would help a lot of other people. Break it down in simple terms for people who have no idea what you mean by percentages if you would please. You must understand that not everyone here will understand what you are saying. Also, if would be helpful to others if you poseted a example letter of how to contact publishers.

Quote: "Yes, I´ll do, and I have to say that I (we) are now way a publishing service, and I´m here not for doing business, but for promoting my game. "


If you are here trying to promote a game then why did you start a thread about publishing?

I think anyone can start their own store and with all the talk of publishing, there is a lot of information here that I have given alone, and many othe rpeople have contributed as well. So if you need help contact me at the very least, and I am sure others wil help you. Just always remember to keep a level head and dont think you will become a millionaire off of this right away, if even at all.

K.L. Phair
PAS
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 06:49
OK. I got a plan, different rating logos, and a catchy slogan tagline. I will start building the website this week and let everyone know in a new thread that the I Rating is here. It will be free and will be available before June 5th.

K.L. Phair
Slayer222
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Posted: 23rd May 2007 07:04
yay!

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fallen one
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Posted: 29th May 2007 21:32
So whats happening with the Workshop: Dealing with Publishers?
Inspire
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Posted: 29th May 2007 23:50
See, all I'm wondering is how to contact a publisher about this and which publishers are safe and well established, which look for good indie games.

PAS
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Posted: 30th May 2007 00:02
Quote: "So whats happening with the Workshop: Dealing with Publishers?"


He did say this
Quote: "Yes, I´ll do, and I have to say that I (we) are now way a publishing service, and I´m here not for doing business, but for promoting my game"
so obviously he wa snot here to tlak about publishign services as he admitted he was here to promote his game.

Quote: "See, all I'm wondering is how to contact a publisher about this and which publishers are safe and well established, which look for good indie games."


There is no such thing as a safe publisher, not even the big name ones, because they all look out for their best interest. If you want a safe publisher then self publish as you iell never rip off yourself. Its sad, but its the truth.

K.L. Phair

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