Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Programming Talk / Witch Gate; by Eagle

Author
Message
Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 4th Jul 2008 02:37
From what I have seen so far its going to be AWESOME!

AlanC
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Sep 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: 4th Jul 2008 08:16
I'm sure it will be. I really enjoy the RC engine.


Violent Pigeon
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Dec 2007
Location: London, Great Britain
Posted: 6th Jul 2008 22:36
Yeah same, just sitting and waiting for RCPro to be released so I can begin working the major level design into my own mmorpg Had enough of this fantasy mumbojumbo making my Sci Fi/Post Apoc game

Sorry for thread Hi-Jack Eagle Still looking good, also could you re upload the video? I want to see the combat

P.S Gah guys, dont be so critical all the time, just let is slip and look at the pretty screenshots!

My MMORPG: http://green-man.pbwiki.com or check out the forums at http://mechtech.webmmorpg.net

Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 14th Jul 2008 22:40
Have you see the New Realm Creafter models they released? I was playing with the Lizzard set today, pretty cool stuff!



Im going to try the Elves next, I'll post more as I get them loaded into my game~

always~
Vickie

Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 14th Jul 2008 22:43
Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 14th Jul 2008 22:58
I wish I could post in the "Showcase" forum

Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 15th Jul 2008 00:21
I think you'll get flamed to death right away if you do that.
Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 15th Jul 2008 17:02
I don't understand why, after all we all make games. You would think other game developers would want to see work from other people. I should write Lee about it,

Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 15th Jul 2008 18:37
Technicly, they take the text on the board description as the rules of the boards... And I wouldn't call RC DBPro Quality to be very honest... since they don't take FPS Creator games there either.
Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 15th Jul 2008 20:57
Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 15th Jul 2008 21:29
Not really, since FPSC and RC are point and click engines, Which both produce rather... Standard games. Some stand out, due to proper use of the scripting engine, and some proper graphics... But most are similar.

But then again, some people already go madness when they see a topic about something made in C++ or something similar, or when someone accidently posts something wrong. So technicly I think its more the community that made those unwritten rules, then the board admin(s).
SunnyKatt
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Sep 2006
Location: USA
Posted: 17th Jul 2008 15:38
I, and most members would HATE to see FPSC and RC games in the WIP and showcase threads. Every game just feels the same. Very standard, as prince of darkness said. Though my games are unique and coded, they have to rot in this programming talk board that few people shall ever check up on, and that is also your fate. But not anymore that TGC sells RC. You'll probably get your own thread filled with games alot like yours that you can hang out in.
Sorry for the bad news.
Good luck.

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 17th Jul 2008 17:45
I don't think TGC are going to make RC forums here, since the official RC forums cover everything just fine.(Trust me, I just logged in there a second ago)

I myself, would also hate to see these games in the WIP boards though, for the same reason as ZekeGames said. Its not that you did no work on them, but its more that they are all very similar. And well, If you know what the standard FPS Creator game is... You would get a headache of the bad mapping and lack of lightning.
SunnyKatt
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Sep 2006
Location: USA
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 04:03
And identical guns, identical enemies. The only thing really unique about them is the level design, and sometimes that isn't unique. Room, hallway, room, hallway, bigroom, hallway, 2 hallways, room...

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 05:01
Wow.. when did making games lose it fun for you guys? Its like riding/owning a Harley, don\'t you get it? Games are like Harleys! They are all pretty much the same engine wise but its the look and custom design that makes them stand out from one another, and when you get a bunch of them together they really make a big noise. That is the fun of it! It\'s not even so much about the look as it is the Ride~
You two are like a couple of Butt-Pirates, why don\'t you go ass rape each other and get it over with..LOL!
...all the games look the same to you..? are you for fu**ing real?
...left hear to Rot? maybe you are! But not me~ I don't know why I waste my time coming to this crap board... are you all 50 and 60 years old? HAHAAHHAHAHA!!!

Benjamin
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 05:44
RC games do mostly look the same though. At least, they all lack in quality. SSS

Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 06:09
How would you know baby-boomer? you have never made a game before, you are like the rest of these old baby-boomers here. You sit around like to old farts you are and complain endlessly about nothing and talk about what "you could-have done" HAHAHAHAHA! Something stinks better go check your adult diper I think its leaking again!

PS: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Benjamin
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 06:33
Well, what's the point of making a game if it's going to be a generic pile of crap, ie. like this.

dark coder
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 12:08
The reason they aren't and hopefully never will be allowed on the main showcase/WIP boards is that it takes considerably less time to make a game or generally anything that is 'showcase worthy', the WIP topic's rules state that you need to make a thread with at least a couple of screenshots I believe, and maybe a small description of your game, a quick look at the FPSC showcase will tell you that this is amazingly easy to do, click a few buttons and you'll meet this criteria, this is unfair because getting to the stage where you can post screenshots of more than a spinning cube using DBPro/GDK it takes considerably more work, so all the DBP/GDK projects will be overshadowed by the torrent of point-and-click made games.

Quote: "Games are like Harleys! They are all pretty much the same engine wise but its the look and custom design that makes them stand out from one another"


For MMORPGs maybe, as they are pretty much all cookie-cutter these days and lack any drastically new features/risky(oo can't have that) ideas.

Quote: "all the games look the same to you..? are you for fu**ing real?"


Look doesn't have to mean graphics, take FPSC for example, many games may graphically look different but when watching a video of them or playing them they look the same, because the engine is rather limited, I haven't really looked into RC at all but I doubt it's any different.

Quote: "How would you know baby-boomer? you have never made a game before, you are like the rest of these old baby-boomers here"


I've made many games before and probably far more than you, I've not seen any RC/FPSC game that's impressed me or shown quality, quality graphics, sure. But graphics can only get you so far on a poor/limited engine.

Also I just looked at the RC gallery, am I looking at the same project here? They all look the exact same, basic terrain with flat textures, either very poor or no lighting, same HUDs pretty much, the only differences I see are the graphics which aren't exactly good.

Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 13:03
Quote: "Look doesn't have to mean graphics, take FPSC for example, many games may graphically look different but when watching a video of them or playing them they look the same, because the engine is rather limited, I haven't really looked into RC at all but I doubt it's any different."


Trust me, its the same... Some have a little more advanced scripts, but in the end they all are the same. The interface is handled the same, the same Movement and everything else...

Quote: "Also I just looked at the RC gallery, am I looking at the same project here? They all look the exact same, basic terrain with flat textures, either very poor or no lighting, same HUDs pretty much, the only differences I see are the graphics which aren't exactly good."


I'm sure someone will come and say that that will improve in RC Pro... But anyway, those screenshots indeed look like crap.(Main thing that kept me off buying it back then.)
SunnyKatt
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Sep 2006
Location: USA
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 14:53
The other guys pretty much said it...
but games are not like harleys. Maybe FPSC and RC games are, but you need to be more general and say games are like vehicles. Some could be a plane, others a tour bus, some a corvette... but FPSC and RC's are harleys. No, electric scooters. I'd prefer to save the harleys for other games.

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 22:09
Talk about crap looking games, have you even been to the gallery board here? Are you kidding? Thats the best you people have to show? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Please~
if this is all this crap engine has to offer its no wonder none of you have made anything with it! Or maybe you just don't have the skill to make anything with it. Instead of all your cheap meaningless talk how about you put your money where your big mouths are? I will put RC up against any game made with DB, any time any place~ Tell me where and when baby-boomers

Benjamin
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 22:55 Edited at: 18th Jul 2008 22:55
Quote: "I will put RC up against any game made with DB"

If you want. As there aren't any (or many) MMORPGs made in DBP, I'll have to simply demonstrate the graphical awesomeness of some projects as you seem to think media is the most important part of a game. The gameplay doesn't make much of a comparison because DBP is flexible, unlike a certain game creation application with a name starting with Realm and ending with Crafter.

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=577&p=25
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=885&p=1
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=651&p=10
http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?m=showcase_view&i=221

Show me any RC game that can compare with the graphical quality of these games. And then narrow it down to those that are fun. Doesn't leave you with much (anything) does it?

dark coder
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 18th Jul 2008 22:58 Edited at: 18th Jul 2008 23:03
Quote: "if this is all this crap engine has to offer its no wonder none of you have made anything with it!"


I disagree, a quick look in the gallery and I see these: http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=769&p=10 and http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=632&p=21, I picked those as they are 3rd person much like RC games. These are just graphically superior of course(they both have lighting/shadows! Shock, horror!), and I can't ascertain how good the engine is merely by screenshots as these games are all programmed from the gound-up with code, no point and clicking involved.

And if you're wondering what I've made with it then: http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=262&p=47, http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=263&p=47, and while it's not on the gallery as it's not finished: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=118155&b=8, you can download the first 2 in the newsletters somewhere, though these aren't the same genre so you can't really put RC up against it engine-wise, but graphically...

Oh and here's some more:

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=864&p=3
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=903&p=0
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=892&p=1
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=792&p=9
etc etc...

Mahoney
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Apr 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Posted: 19th Jul 2008 03:58
@Benjamin

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=577&p=25

That looks absolutely stunning for DBPro. Good example.

@darkcoder

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=gallery_view&i=769&p=10

Wonderful 3rd person example. Also, kudos on your games. You are obviously very, very skilled at being a game maker.

@Vickie

I believed that you, as the Internet would word it, just got owned.
Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 19th Jul 2008 09:34 Edited at: 19th Jul 2008 09:44
There was only 1 Realm Crafter MMO that looked, acceptable... Winters Twilight, It had all Custom Media, I think the engine was also modified, and it looked pretty good. But the project died somehow.

Note to those that have seen me on the RC forums, just because I own it, doesn't mean I have to defend it... I only got it for the free Pro Upgrade.
SunnyKatt
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Sep 2006
Location: USA
Posted: 19th Jul 2008 14:57
I never get here in time to own.
This is getting a little crazy, this meaning Vickie's comments. TGC has to have software for all levels of development, including those with little to no coding experience. Hence RC and FPSC and 3DGM. I, for one, used to use FPSC until I realized what I made was unoriginal and I would never do anything good with it and moved onto code.

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

Mahoney
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Apr 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Posted: 19th Jul 2008 15:48
@Prince of Darkness

That game does look good. Here's a link to screenshots for you guys.

http://photo.mmosite.com/wt/
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 20th Jul 2008 03:53
Guys, when it comes to making games and you put a lot of hard work into it with a product sold on the TGC website or for a product sold on the TGC website then I think it fair to showcase it. For FPSCers they have a board dedicated for their showcases. If someone on these forums put a lot of effort behind a realm crafter project - even if the program is limited to what variation it gives, then the person deserves to show it off. They might not consider themselves hardcore programmers, but manage to show off more in design aspects and because they've not shown anything impressive in terms of engine choice or programming, it doesn't necessarily what they have isn't worthy or isn't any good.

If somebody places a load of stock media into a scene, selects a game type, makes up a story and calls it a game or haven't shown anything or much worth, then it would be a waste of time posting.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Mahoney
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Apr 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Posted: 20th Jul 2008 08:07
We're simply saying you can't show anything really with just screenshots. It takes a lot more than that. Usually a demo at minimum. I know it can take plenty of work, it's just such a larger accomplishment doing it all yourself in DBPro and C++. It's also much more distinct and unique.
SunnyKatt
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Sep 2006
Location: USA
Posted: 20th Jul 2008 14:58
Yes, they deserve to show it off. Just not in the showcase thread with the actually coded games.

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

Mahoney
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Apr 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Posted: 20th Jul 2008 21:26
There should be separate threads for that. Heck, they can just use the forums made for RC.
Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 20th Jul 2008 23:43
Yup, theres a whole community filled with below average games out there, and a bunch of 10 year old kids. We all call it, Realm Crafter Forums. Alot of people over there use Translators, never read manuals, and just ask for about everything. Got to admit, I like the Site Admin though.
Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 04:33
Hey I didn't get owned! And I will admit that "Some" of thoes shots are not bad at all. Too bad they aren't in a place that can be found very easy. Maybe you should update the game shots with new ones. Not everyone at RC are 10 y/o but you are right to say there is no one over 50 like there is here. but to each his own. I always have fun making games, can you say the same?

your all so old, its no wonder nothing is fun for you anymore. LOL!

always~
Vickie

SunnyKatt
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Sep 2006
Location: USA
Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 04:39
I have fun making my games...

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 04:45
I'm glad you do Zeke, seems like most of them here don't. It's just sad really, I feel sorry for them.

always~
Vickie

Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 11:12
I have fun with making games, But I take it seriously... If something has a crappy rendering engine, I just rewrite it. not release it. Really, try to get 1.5 Million poly's on screen in Realm Crafter, it will just give a memory acces violation. While in any other random program, I load it, and it runs fine.(Besides FPS Creator, but that definitly needs some improvements in speed)
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
Developer
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Feb 2006
Location: Sweden
Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 13:17
i didt know this still was going on?
shouldt we all drop this now as it can only go bad in the end.
i think vicky is skilled as many of us would probably not be able to do wath she have done so far with rc.
and yes she cant do wath many have done in dark basic.
but aint the whole rc stuff an part of tgc nowdays?
i read something a while ago that tgc are involved there?
in that case should tgc make an rc section in the forum so we can get an end to this.
cheers
Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 13:27
Quote: "i think vicky is skilled as many of us would probably not be able to do wath she have done so far with rc."


What she did in RC, is pointing and clicking some stuff, and making some settings...
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
Developer
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Feb 2006
Location: Sweden
Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 13:42
yes but if its that easy so should there be an silly amount of good looking games with rc?
i used alot of point and klick editors before finding dbp klick and play and gamemaker etc.
i do yust mean that there is alot of skill to make an good game with an point and klick editor to.
not in the same way as an real programming language off course.
as an crappy developer cant do anything good and uniqe with fps creator for instance.
but we have seen some good samples not many but there are some good ones out there.
its various skills but good ones anyway.
and we indi developers that do this for fun should promote and help each other not hazzle each other.
if you think of it when you go to an programming forum and tells them that you use dbp whil you probably get hazzled by people that use c++ and asm.
i have bin hazzled for using dbp but my skills are to weak to use c++ or asm so iam happy that dbp exist as its an powerfull engine for the small amount neaded to achive simple games.
and yust look at the ones with better skills wath they have done with dbp
cheers
Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 13:47
You can't compare a crappy engine with an even more crappier scripting language, to a coding language...

Anyway, Realm Crafter games CAN look good, but they all respond the same, they all work the same and the way the movement works is evil. I've seen more different FPS Creator games, then Realm Crafter games. They are basicly all the same, with a different paper wrapped around it.

Scripting gives you no control on the interface, and lacks alot of features. I have no idea how they ever could have thought of using DX7 in the first place either, but oh well.

Lets just hope the new version will be an improvement, and not just the same as X10 was for FPS Creator.
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
Developer
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Feb 2006
Location: Sweden
Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 13:57 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2008 13:58
-------------
You can't compare a crappy engine with an even more crappier scripting language, to a coding language...
------------
it wast my intention
i dont know about rc that much as when i found dbp did i stop looking for game makers as i could do them my self now with dbp.
but i find my self stuck at always working on the editors more then the games and get tired of the projects
--------
Anyway, Realm Crafter games CAN look good, but they all respond the same, they all work the same and the way the movement works is evil. I've seen more different FPS Creator games, then Realm Crafter games. They are basicly all the same, with a different paper wrapped around it.

Scripting gives you no control on the interface, and lacks alot of features. I have no idea how they ever could have thought of using DX7 in the first place either, but oh well.
----------------
let us hope vicky points them in the right direction as she are using it.
i bought the first fps creator but got tired of it because of the things you mention that there is not that much control.
but they have updated it alot after i stopped using it.
cheers.

ps
nice 2d rpg engine you have done with vb6.
is it your own gfx?
nice anyway
i have vacation and no will power to start an new project so finding my self browsing the web today.

was x10 that bad ?
it looked awsome in the promos?
Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 23rd Jul 2008 02:46
Wow! am I glad to see you here Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS~ You seem to really get where I'm coming from. I didn't think there were any people like me on this board but here you are~

Its "Very" nice to me you Cliff~!

always~
Vickie

Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
Developer
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Feb 2006
Location: Sweden
Posted: 23rd Jul 2008 13:56
i thought i read it somewhere must be my age or something that i didt remember it
http://realmcrafter.thegamecreators.com/index.php
its an part of tgc now as they sell it.
so they should make an section for it like with fpsc.
thanks vicki nothing special and great wishes for your project.
cheers
Silvester
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 23rd Jul 2008 15:10
They don't need a section for it, And TGC is not part of RealmCrafter, and neither is it the other way around. TGC is just a reseller for Realm Crafter, they offer it on the site, but have nothing to do with Solstar.

Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
Developer
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Feb 2006
Location: Sweden
Posted: 23rd Jul 2008 16:00
aint it the same with gamespace and all the rest of small programs for particle fx and the odyssey creation set is done by freddix?
it aint that many that tgc is involved with in development wise.
but get me right here as i love tgc
if i aint wrong so started the first fpsc outside of tgc that they grabbed on to when they looked at its potential during development.
and many of the dlls are developed by small companys like the ez rotate and others not by tgc itself.
anyway as i could be wrong as it have bin happening before.
its up to tgc to make an section if they want?
i have glanced at rc and as you say it have flaws but could be an good contribution after its update in the works.
cheers
Mahoney
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Apr 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Posted: 23rd Jul 2008 20:01
I think they are much more involved with the development of FPSC. Actually, I think it's even written in DBPro. Either way, though, they directly develop FPSC. RC is just something that they resell, as PoD said.

Windows Vista Home Premium Intel Pentium Dual-Core 1.6 Ghz 1GB DDR2 RAM GeForce 8600GT Twin Turbo
Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 24th Jul 2008 02:24
well, this post is about my RC game, if you guys want to talk about model or level creation that would be cool. It would be nice if I could show off my work in the showcase forum but if not who cares, I'm all over the internet it won't hurt me.

Guess I'll get back to making new levels for my game.

always~
Vickie

Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 24th Jul 2008 02:43
I moved all my work here so they are easier to find. If you look at the first picture to the last you can see how the game is progressing. Everything seems to be coming together really nice.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[img]null[/img]













































http://www.eaglesoftworxstudio.com/Witch_Gate/Lizzard2.jpg[/img]

http://www.eaglesoftworxstudio.com/Witch_Gate/lizzard1.jpg[/img]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
More to come...

Always~
Vickie

Vickie
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 24th Jul 2008 02:45
Oops! I missed some~




Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2026-06-09 16:49:17
Your offset time is: 2026-06-09 16:49:17