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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Why doesn't the DarkBasic team respond to customer emails???

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DoctorWho_3DGX
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Posted: 27th May 2003 06:29
Hi all,

I was just wondering if anybody else here on the DarkBasic Pro forums
had any trouble trying to get ahold of someone on the DarkBasic or DarkBasic Pro teams? They tell you to email them if you have any questions regarding their products.. But seldom do they ever return a responce back to you to let you know anything at all!! I can at least vouch for conitec to at least return a response back to you.. Even if it might be a form of a vogue answer.. At least Conitec of the famous 3D GameStudio returns some sort of answer back to you.. Customer cummunication is a key aspect to any successful business.. Why wont DarkBasic LTD. or any of it's members at least return a response back to you? Heck at least acklowedge our existant!!! Dam....
I've noticed from the past that DarkBasic has had issue's like this before with their customers.. I guess I was hoping that they might have resolved this problem by now! I guess it is still a problem!! I can't see how they do business with so many people and such if they can't even return a simple responce email to answer a a few simple questions? Well.. since I don't expect them to ever return a email back to me the normal way... I am going to post my original email right here to hope that they might see it here at least! So here it is:


Hello Rich,


I just recieved DarkBasic Professional as a gift from my good friend in australia who won 9th place in the Retro Games Comp. not to long ago.. He already had DarkBasic Pro and he sent his prize to me as a gift.. The game that won the 9th place in the competition was "GoJoe Pogo" it was developed by Ross Mcrea..
we are currently working on sevral new projects and one of them we are developing with DarkBasic Pro right now.. Or at least he is having me do all of the coding in DarkBasic Pro right now while he is finishing up on another game project using DarkBasic ver. 1.13 right now! To be more to the point here.. Im' currently having some problems with frame rates using BSP level files.. I did check on the DarkBasic Pro forums and I got many replies & opinions as to what the problem was & still is at this point in time.. I thought that the problem was maybe in the DarkBasic Pro rendering engine.. But another member brought to my attention another fimilar problem using CShop and compiled BSP level files and loading them into DarkBasic Pro and also them suffering from drastic frame rates drops.. I was told that other members has loaded Quake 2 & Quake 3 BSP level files into DarkBasic Pro and was recieving frame rates that toped into and around 175+ fps or more! However though.. When I load a regular square room that was compiled using the DarkBasic Pro BSP compiler into DarkBasic Pro.. I end up getting only between 28fps to a max of 31fps ONLY!!! I also own a copy of 3D GameStudio Commercial Edition A5 Engine.. I get 75+fps or better when loading a compiled BSP level file into 3D GameStudio A5... I have a Geforce 2 MX400 32meg DDR video card, 256meg's of pc133 memory, AMD Athlon 1.11 GHZ processor, 2 - 20 gigs hard drives that are ata66 5400rpms... I don't think that my system information will really help you here determine what the possible problem could be.. But me and sevral others on the DarkBasic Pro forums are having the same problems.. I shouldn't have to get a new video card as like I just told you a moment ago that I was getting 75+fps or better using the same video card & other system devices as well that I already have in my system.. But!! When I try to load a simple square room compiled with the DarkBasic Pro BSP compiler.. I only get between 28 to 31 frame per second.. No offence here Rich.. But I believe there just might be a problem with your company's BSP compiler that you ship with DarkBasic Pro CD-Rom... I really don't want to use any other compilers as this would cause me to have to pay additional royalties to these other companies for using their software & tools.. Do you have any idea as to what the real problem is here on this?!? Or am I pretty close to the correct answer here?! And if you & your company is indeed awhere of this problem with the frame rates & BSP level files.. Can you give me an idea as to when your company will be dealing with this issue? I think I can speak for myself & others on the DarkBasic Pro forums here that we would love to know when this problem will be dealt with & corrected hopfully soon! Any information on this matter will be greatly appreciated.. And I hope that this problem can be corrected real soon as this is currently holding up one of our game projects.. Please contact me soon regarding this issue.. Thank you!


Best Regards,

Glenn K. Brown -- (Lead Programmer/Level designer)
3DGX Entertainment, Inc.
http://3dgx.tripod.com



It's pretty sad that I must post my emails here for the DarkBasic team to get them and maybe, Just maybe return a possible response to them!

Other than that.. That's it for now! Im' just trying to communicate with them to hopfully get them to realize how serious this problem really is and how it is affecting the rest of us here trying to use their software to develope possible commercial applications for future distribution intensions.. I hope they respond this time!! It's been like 4 days now I believe.. Anyway.. I hope I hear something positive here at least...

Best Regards,

DoctorWho_3dgx
Best Regards, DoctorWho_3DGX
Lead Programmer/Level Designer
Ian T
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Posted: 27th May 2003 07:04
Well, a couple of things.

1- They're nightmarishly busy with patches. Image that everyone you know has five clones and are all bothering you about new features, enhancments, speed boosts, accuritizations (that's not a word!), and corrections. Yes, it's their job, but it takes time regardless.

2- Rich ic not the one to contact about bugs. Lee's the guy you want to send them too.

3- If you have a problem, why not post about it here? Helpful discussions often take place (especially when the poster can be accurate about the problem like you are), and even if you don't find a fix for it, you might find out what's causing the problem.

4- Good luck!

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
DoctorWho_3DGX
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Posted: 27th May 2003 07:24
Hi Mouse,

Well... the email was originally sent to Rich with hope that he might send it to the proper person that could handle these questions in need! I also understand what your saying about them being busy and such with the above mentioned in your post.. but conitec has just as many customers as DarkBasic does.. Actually they have alot, alot more!!! But they still manage to take the time to at least send some sort of responce to their customers.. even if it is a short one to at least let them know something!! Customer communication is very important here.. you don't want to give the customer the wrong impression that you don't care about them.. If that happens.. they just might think that this company doesn't care about them other than their money! you have to support your product if your selling it to so many people out there.. that's just common business practices with any product!

Best Regards,

DoctorWho_3DGX

Best Regards, DoctorWho_3DGX
Lead Programmer/Level Designer
Ian T
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Posted: 27th May 2003 07:48
I agree. However, there are only 4 people really on the DB team, and only 2 who can answer most of the detailed questions about the language-- Rich is customer relations and Guy is US customer relations/IDE maker, only Lee and Mike really know the internals of the language well enough to answer customer support questions. And they get hundreds a day.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
DoctorWho_3DGX
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Posted: 27th May 2003 07:59
Hi again Mouse,

Ok.. I see your point! But still I would appreciate a response sometime in the very near future when they possibly can.. You must admit after reading my previous post & email message that this problem is indeed a BIG Issue here.. I really like DarkBasic Professional.. And I had waited for it to come out about as long as everybody else has too! But I was really looking forward to using BSP level files with it for alot of upcoming game projects underway.. But because of the frame rate problems with their BSP Compiler and such.. this has put a major damper on alot of out ideas due to this.. I would almost bet money on it that alot of other users on this forum share my feelings on this one! I just would like to hear a little response from someone on the DarkBasic LTD side at least stating when this potential problem will be addressed and hopfully when?!?

Best Regards,

DoctorWho_3DGX

Best Regards, DoctorWho_3DGX
Lead Programmer/Level Designer
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 27th May 2003 08:48
When did you send it ?. DBS are currently on a long weekend holiday (In The UK). After which, there's bound to the regular backlog of emails. Rendering speed is largely in the hands of Mike, if you addresss your questions to him, this is most likely the fastest way to get a reply. ([email protected])

One thing is noticable about DBpro is that while Gf2 cards get reasonable performance (I actually get worse than you with BSP's) it's certainly not being aimed at this user base. There's a distict DX9 design push/mind set and with that their very focued on DX9 level hardware.

l8r,
Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 27th May 2003 12:45
DoctorWho - when did you send the email? Due to the amount of email we receive it could take a few working days for us to get back to you. If you send me your project files and all of the media I can take a look - [email protected]

Mike
Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th May 2003 15:25 Edited at: 27th May 2003 15:27
Err your email was received on the 26th of May at 15:46 - (which is a public bank holiday in England btw) - and then complain we haven't replied by the 27th May 2003 3:29 am - not even 24 hours later! The original having been sent on the 25th (a Sunday I hasten to add). I would love to know if even Conitec reply to their support email over the weekends? This post therefore is I feel, entirely unreasonable and certainly won't expediate my reply.

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
Eric T
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Posted: 27th May 2003 15:27
geez they probably get 100's of emails a day give them a break

-Eric

I always win don't you know that?
Programming RPG games in Dark Basic
Since 1999.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th May 2003 15:46
lol... i wouldn't worry Rich, most of the kids around here don't even know what a working week is let alone how quick the DBS tech support is compaired to alot of other companies i could name

probably should put up a disclaimer on the site with something like
"Email Responses may take between 2-5 working days"

i've always heard alot of stories about Lee taking forever to answer his email and mike too ... but everytime i've emailed them i've had a response within 24hrs which i thinks pretty good considering the time difference.

i emailed and phoned AT&T recently about my cellphone service, they charged me $25 to tell me there was nothing they could do ... i spent a week trying to get this response which was ontop of the 2hr phone call at $1.50/min where they just kept putting me through to another section of the company which didn't seem to have any better of a clue.

so i think free and quick tech support from DBS is a blessing
especially from such a small team

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
David T
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Posted: 27th May 2003 19:39
Bank Holidays are annoying - they're always there when you odn't want them (ie. when ordering online)!

Quote: "But I was really looking forward to using BSP level files with it for alot of upcoming game projects underway.. But because of the frame rate problems with their BSP Compiler and such.. this has put a major damper on alot of out ideas due to this"


Quite honestly, use the CShop FPS demo code for sliding collision - it works better for me than BSPs. BSPs have always been buggy for me.

You are the th person to view this signature.
Programmers don't die, they just Gosub without return....
Rob K
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Posted: 27th May 2003 20:15 Edited at: 27th May 2003 20:16
DBS responded to ALL of my emails (thats about 10 this month). Its the way you ask

If you think DBS are bad, you've clearly:

a) Never purchased any software before

b) Never purchased anything requiring support of any kind.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
Evil Noodle
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Posted: 27th May 2003 20:32
b) Never purchased anything requiring support of any kind

@RobK : thats why I will never buy from dabs again ,I single them out as my source of high blood pressure and inevitable early death

T.A.F.K.A.C.M.O.T.D
The Artist Formally Known As Cut_Me_Own_Throat_Dibbler
MrTAToad
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Posted: 27th May 2003 20:39
Dabs.com are great - its a pity they dont take SWITCH cards though...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Ian T
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Posted: 27th May 2003 20:56
Don't be so hard on him. Customer support is generally improving-- I've asked for help with 3 games and 2 other computer products these past few months and was given top-notch support in all but 1 occassion. And I think I got that exception fired he actually swore at me over the phone

Not to insult DBS or anything, but customer support really isn't generally as bad as you're saying.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Mentor
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Posted: 27th May 2003 21:55 Edited at: 27th May 2003 21:57
that post realy has me going now.
deep breath......
probably they are still laughing at your missive, don`t they teach people how to write letters in school any more?, first you tell em you have a free copy, that sounds like some smartarse with a warez version trying to justify his lack of proof of purchase, irrespective of it`s real origin.
you ramble on for ages about your hamster, family and the weather (well..not quite, but you might as well have done), and style yourself lead programmer when it`s obvious you aren`t even out of school yet (or at least I hope so for your sake).
you don`t even check your facts since if you had you would know you can use freeware tools like Zoners half life tools and editors available freely to make your BSP, it won`t cost you a penny, just some time to learn the tools.
as for what you think about the usefulness of your system specification and what bearing that has on the problem, well, if you had read through the forum you would have noticed that some system configurations do have problems, and sometimes they can be fixed by workarounds, I think anybody who can write a compiler really ought to be the judge of what information is required, not some kid making Pac-Man copies in his spare time.
just like this (intentional) post you seem immune to the idea of "tact", telling someone that A5 is better than their languages directx calls (on your pc...not mine sonny), calling it an engine (it`s a language) and referring to "their company" all the time (they work for "their company"...they don`t own it).
this post has been carefully crafted to be as unfair as your posting on this forum was, expecting replies on a bank holiday weekend from the DB team after a few hours and then slagging them off on the forum IS offensive don`t you think?, especially after a few half hearted posts, if you had waited longer then some people could have told you how to set up an editor and the programs to render your BSP maps and have them run at a reasonable speed.

The end of my rant and a message to some (not all) newbies
okay, you got the short end of the stick, a bit unfair but then so was your post, I am getting tired of people who put up this sort of stuff and pretend "lead programmers" asking how to do acceleration for their Elite beater, or how to animate sprites so they can code the ultimate Mario clone, not to mention people who refuse to post their source, but need help, obviously under the impression that everybody is out to steal the code for their "awesome" man-on-a-matrix-with-cubes-game, well get this and get it clearly, WE HAVE NO NEED TO STEAL THE CODE FROM A NEWB WHO HAS PROBLEMS DISPLAYING A TITLE SCREEN (or whatever), so to those people wanting help, just take a deep breath and post the code, you haven`t written anything awesome/steal-able in your first two weeks of writing code, not even in the first two months, not a hope!.
rant over (for now)


Mentor.

empty
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Posted: 27th May 2003 22:27
LOL, how true.

Ogres have layers.
spooky
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Posted: 27th May 2003 23:25
MrTAToad: I buy all my stuff at dabs and they have taken SWITCH cards for as long as I can remember!

Good thing about dabs is they are happy to deliver to addresses other than one your card is registered to, i.e. work address and they NEVER quibble about returns.

Gronda, Gronda
Ian T
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Posted: 27th May 2003 23:25
How incredibly wrong, Mentor.

First things first.

probably they are still laughing at your missive, don`t they teach people how to write letters in school any more?

Given your grammer and spelling, I'd have to say 'no'.

first you tell em you have a free copy, that sounds like some smartarse with a warez version trying to justify his lack of proof of purchase, irrespective of it`s real origin.

I wasn't under the impression that DBpro had been pirated anywhere. I've just completed a rather extensive search of P2P programs and on search engines and turned up nothing.

you ramble on for ages about your hamster, family and the weather (well..not quite, but you might as well have done), and style yourself lead programmer when it`s obvious you aren`t even out of school yet (or at least I hope so for your sake).

Ignoring the grade-school attempt at a threat, I'll point out a few things. First of all, there is a single paragraph between the standard preamble and the point of the letter. 'ramble on for ages' is a rather poor description. Second, I've seen plenty of good programs from coders who aren't 'out of school'-- however you define that.

you don`t even check your facts since if you had you would know you can use freeware tools like Zoners half life tools and editors available freely to make your BSP, it won`t cost you a penny, just some time to learn the tools.

If you don't know where to look, it can be surprisingly hard to find the right tools.

as for what you think about the usefulness of your system specification and what bearing that has on the problem, well, if you had read through the forum you would have noticed that some system configurations do have problems, and sometimes they can be fixed by workarounds, I think anybody who can write a compiler really ought to be the judge of what information is required, not some kid making Pac-Man copies in his spare time.

That's disjointed and completely beside the point. System specifications should always be supplied and whether or not a workaround could be made he should be commended for sending them in, not repremanded. The reason he sent a letter in was so that it could be responded to by the developer team. This wins the prize for 'most pointless sentance in the rant'.

just like this (intentional) post you seem immune to the idea of "tact", telling someone that A5 is better than their languages directx calls (on your pc...not mine sonny), calling it an engine (it`s a language) and referring to "their company" all the time (they work for "their company"...they don`t own it).

There is nothing wrong with product comparisin. Furthermore, bug reports have little need of tact-- he's stating a few facts. Do you really think Rich took offense at that? Jeez...

this post has been carefully crafted to be as unfair as your posting on this forum was, expecting replies on a bank holiday weekend from the DB team after a few hours and then slagging them off on the forum IS offensive don`t you think?, especially after a few half hearted posts, if you had waited longer then some people could have told you how to set up an editor and the programs to render your BSP maps and have them run at a reasonable speed.

First of all, you haven't read his posts so you don't know they're 'half hearted'. Furthermore, it was only natural he didn't know about that holiday if he didn't live in that area. Finally, he did not 'slag them off' anywhere.

The end of my rant and a message to some (not all) newbies
okay, you got the short end of the stick, a bit unfair but then so was your post, I am getting tired of people who put up this sort of stuff and pretend "lead programmers" asking how to do acceleration for their Elite beater, or how to animate sprites so they can code the ultimate Mario clone, not to mention people who refuse to post their source, but need help, obviously under the impression that everybody is out to steal the code for their "awesome" man-on-a-matrix-with-cubes-game


If you're tired of people asking questions, leave the damn forums. These boards are for questions and you have absolutely no right to tell beginners to stop asking them. And if they're a one-man team or the only coder, they are the lead programmer, aren't they now?

well get this and get it clearly, WE HAVE NO NEED TO STEAL THE CODE FROM A NEWB WHO HAS PROBLEMS DISPLAYING A TITLE SCREEN (or whatever), so to those people wanting help, just take a deep breath and post the code, you haven`t written anything awesome/steal-able in your first two weeks of writing code, not even in the first two months, not a hope!

I've seen beginners make excellent programs in the first two months of their work-- far better than anything I've seen from you (which is nothing), in fact. Beginners have every right to keep their code protected, and whether your self-righteous mind comprehends it or not, there ARE people who steal code and they WILL do it to beginners.

Trolls ....

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
empty
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Posted: 27th May 2003 23:37 Edited at: 27th May 2003 23:38
Quote: "
I wasn't under the impression that DBpro had been pirated anywhere. I've just completed a rather extensive search of P2P programs and on search engines and turned up nothing.
"

That wasn't very extensive, was it? There are pirated version of DBpro available.


Quote: "
Beginners have every right to keep their code protected
"

How would you answer questions like "why doesn't my object show up" without knowing the source?

Ogres have layers.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 27th May 2003 23:45
Sonic - they've got a page on their web site stating why they dont take SWITCH any more (due to fraud) - if they've changed their policy in the last month or so, I'll be very pleased.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th May 2003 00:04
gonna side with empty here, there are pirated versions of DarkBasic Professional and there are also hacks out there.

admitedly all the pirated versions i know of are actually in the posession of people who already own the full version and so are the hacks to just get around the CD check - but the point is it is illegal to copy the software in any forms even for backup use and as such they're pirated versions.

that said i've noticed 2 people on KaZaA who have had full pirated versions up and they have been delt with by Sherman Inc. But they can't deal with everyone and the only reason they bothered with these two was because their network only showed a few people, unfortunately when a game gets past a certain mark (around 20 people) they won't even bother to try to put a stop to the piracy and sit behind thier disclaimer.

Toad you should apply for an MasterCard or Visa ... they're generally more accepted.

I think that DBS should probably look into creating a standard Email, as i currently have one for when people contact me with inane questions they could find the answers themselves.
Which simply says something along the lines of,

"your email has been received and believe that the answer lies within the help files attached with the said product. Also i would suggest visiting the forums at [url://] if you require any further assitance on this subject. There are many members who are currently available to offer helpful advice or specific solutions to the problems you current face."

or some other faceless crap ... some companies have an automatic response email to most email that come in that would be more along the lines of
"we've receieved your email and it will be looked into as soon as possible, however in the meantime please make sure all software is properly installed and there are no outside problems which could be the cause of the problem. If you are asking about the generic workings of our software them please feel free to visit our forums whilst you wait, perhaps another user has suffered the same problem and can help."



Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Ian T
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Posted: 28th May 2003 00:05
There are? I'll take your word for it, though I didn't find any. Very unfortunate... on the upside, they shouldn't be able to install the very neccessary patches

Your second statement has no relation to the matter at hand. His question was very well phrased. If you don't like other newb's questions, then don't drop by the threads.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
empty
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Posted: 28th May 2003 00:12
Quote: "
Your second statement has no relation to the matter at hand. His question was very well phrased. If you don't like other newb's questions, then don't drop by the threads.
"

The second statement (include sources) was related to Mentor's second paragraph that clearly states:
"The end of my rant and a message to some (not all) newbies"

BTW: "very well phrased"- well that's your opinion.

Ogres have layers.
Mentor
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Posted: 28th May 2003 00:31
Mouse: keep your hair on, there wasn`t any threat (unless we count the one you imagined), I take it from your use of the word "grade" that you hail from the US, please do not try to lecture an Englishman on the use of his native language, especialy since you live in a nation that seems devoted to the destruction of proper English (and yes, that is grammaticaly correct).


Mentor.

Ian T
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Posted: 28th May 2003 01:13
'first you tell em you have a free copy, that sounds like some smartarse with a warez version trying to justify his lack of proof of purchase, irrespective of it`s real origin.'

Ah! I see that originally, English had no capitilization, inproper use of apostrophes, and missing apostrophes where they are needed. Suuuuure...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 28th May 2003 01:35
I emailed DBS twice today and have already received 2 replies.

By contrast my emails have individual sentences and are broken into paragraphs.

Besides, you should respect our national holidays!

Pneumatic Dryll
Ian T
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Posted: 28th May 2003 02:00
Mmmm... oh well.

I suggest now that you've quite enlightened me, you remove this information as this is a public forum...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball

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