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DarkBASIC Discussion / [LOCKED] Are We Really Helping?

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Libervurto
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Posted: 29th Jun 2007 23:50
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Firstly, I have to say I am delighted by the camaraderie shown on this site, but I do sometimes wonder if the more experienced coders are being TOO helpful by simply dishing out their code and home-made functions to noobs. In my opinion, this will make them lazy and not really pay any attention to the code they are being given, or make any attempt to produce their own.
Please post your views on this subject whether you agree or disagree with me.
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Lucifer
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 01:03 Edited at: 30th Jun 2007 01:14
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i dont agree with you and i think that this post is quite offencive .. i could make a long speech about why this is such a riddiculous thing to ask here, but i'm tired.. so i'll keep this short..

if someone asks a question, i usually try to answer them (when i can). but if they start asking ALOT of questions and dont even seem to read replies to their post i stop answering them and hope they get the picture, and other people eventually will stop answering them. (that has only happened once in my time here)..

i once asked some questions and i did get good answers to them, so i know how to do things i didn't before asking. so i'm happy to help when i can.

Quote: "In my opinion, this will make them lazy and not really pay any attention to the code they are being given, or make any attempt to produce their own."


let me ask you, what do you think people think when they buy dbc? do you think they're thinking "oh yes, buy this game making software and ask questions and get lazy".. uhh, i hope not, that's not what i thought... i said i thought this post was offencive because you're saying that if people get help they get dependant on it like they're really dumb?

well i asked questions, and.. i'm not dumb.. i think..



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Link102
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 01:10
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Where's the offencivenes? OBese87 is just saying it could be that noobs will go lazy.

Personally, when I copy a code from the codebase or anywhere else, I check the code, checking for optimisation and trying to understand what everything is.

Don't look at my sig!
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Lucifer
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 01:17
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and another thing, isn't this a programming language "Forum"? why shouldn't people be able to ask question if they have trouble figuring things out ...



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alien master
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 01:27 Edited at: 30th Jun 2007 01:33
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I totally agree on this subject


Noobs are like leechers.. they will post topics like Help me...give me the COdez... and never say thanks

I see alot of those and when i read them there are people already there giving them everything they want

see they should sit down and ask questions yes....but i see people say this on these forums

Quote: "Hello my name is bob i want to know how to make a 2d game....see though i want to make one like invaders

plz gimme codes for this to work"


ok he doesnt even have a plan...he just wants to get a code from someone to put in his darkbasic prompt and sit there all day leeching other peoples ideas

so their being babied ....yes we have all gone through this stage some of us didnt have a clue and some kind of had a clue.....

and they got help from reading the examples in darkbsaic...the help manuals.....

etc

then those people that once needed help no longer need it because they have fed themselves so much knowledge...

so whenever a noob comes in asking for someone to do all the work for them....people usually say no but then there are people who will give them codes to start them out finish them etc

all they are doing is feeding off of people knowledge as far as i am concerned they need to try and learn something on their own..instead of relying on everyone else to do it for them...so i dont know if anyone has alternate opinions about this...that is ok we have the right to oppose each other...but the people who just sit there and watch and feed from us arent actually learning anything except for the people who take the time to read and care about what their doing so...if you think that what obese said was (this is how you spell it (offensive) than you were fed and fed codes as your path from child to infant grew....

but seriously this post deserves to be read....once again people dont have the same opinion all the time so there will be people who flame and send hate mail...so what you just let them do that

but either way im tired need to take a nap

remember asking questions is ok but relying on the people who answer them is uncalled for

you will never learn anything that way you will just be like


i wonder if someone will tell me how to make mmorpgs.....

next thing you know they were locked and there is a pretty good mmorpg coming along in the WIP section

yes i have posts asking for answers and no one knows everything....so we all need help people told me to read tutorials on darkbasic i did and i got smarter...and thats the process




PEACE

Alienmaster
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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 01:38
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OK maybe I didn't phrase it too well. I have no problem with people helping each other, that's great. What I'm getting at is I've seen a few noobs trying to make games like Zelda etc. and quite understandably getting stuck. Then they ask more experienced coders for help and just chuck the code they're given into their program without even changing it as was required. I am only basing this on 2 occasions.
Maybe I'm just being too nannying, If some noobs don't read code they're going to use then that's their problem.

@ Link102
Great to hear you are using other people's code to learn from.

@ Lucifer
I ask questions and give help too that's definitely not a problem.
I just think when I was a noob I wasted a lot of time trying to do too complicated stuff instead of building up my knowledge, and taking on code that I couldn't understand would've lengthened that period. I suppose that's just what noobs do and you're right, that doesn't mean noobs shouldn't be allowed to receive code.
I guess you just have to judge people on their own merit.
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LBFN
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 01:38
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@ OBese87

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. While many people are very generous with their expertise, oftentimes newer programmers are frankly told to "search". DB can be intimidating or confusing to newer programmers and having a community to turn to is encouraging.

If these forums aren't for sharing and helping, then what good are they? More than one person has been severely flamed for trying to be lazy. I suppose that what you suggest is possible, but I don't see it as a significant problem. You get out of DB what you put into it.

LB
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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 01:47
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I don't think any of our views are that different. My post just makes this problem sound more common than it is. The type of thing Alien Master mentioned is exactly what I meant, but LBFN is right, these people would (hopefully) just be ignored or told to do some tutorials.

I think this was an interesting topic to bring up anyway lol.
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TDK
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 01:59
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Quote: "why shouldn't people be able to ask question if they have trouble figuring things out ..."


But there's a difference between someone having trouble figuring something out and someone who can't be bothered even looking or attempting to solve the problem themselves...

Quote: "You get out of DB what you put into it."


Yes agreed. Similar answer - I know where OBese87 is coming from though and tend to agree with him. A lot of new users want you to post the exact code they want for their program.

They don't want to read any previous posts on the subject... they want you to give them the code or at least a direct link to the exact post with the answer in it. They certainly can't be bothered using the search button - which I agree isn't brilliant if you type the wrong search criterior in, but with experimentation and a little time does come up with the goods.

Quote: "well i asked questions, and.. i'm not dumb.. i think.."


I don't think it's anything to do with being dumb - it's attitude.

DB is a language and a newcomer's attitude needs to be of someone who wants to learn that language. If you do, you'll put the effort in to learn it.

If you don't, you'll ask questions which have been answered on here many, many times before about how to do X and Y in your 'MMORPG' while at the same time not understanding the difference between MyScore and MyScore# or how a function works.

In other words, "I don't want to put any effort into this, just give me the code I need to paste into my program".

And if you do, they are back the next day having pasted it in without understanding a word of it - asking how to fix something that doesn't work.

I would much rather point a total newcomer to a tutorial which covers what they need to learn. If in later posts it's obvious that they ignored my advice, then I ignore their posts in the future. Their loss - not mine...

TDK_Man

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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 02:56
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@ TDK

You said exactly what I meant, it's about lazy noobs that abuse the help they get, not the polite noobs that just want a pointer in the right direction. I still ask questions and consider myself a noob when compared to people like you, it's all about showing a little respect.

Woo, I stirred up quite a fuss with this one didn't I lol.
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gearce
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 04:15 Edited at: 30th Jun 2007 04:32
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Hi there!

I’ve posted a few puzzle type programmes and each, except for the latest, has had well over 100 views, but I have no idea how many of the viewers have actually ran any of them. There has been very little, if any, feedback. I’m not looking for praise or glory but

Quote: "My DBClassic programming skills are on a continual learner level so I'd like to hear from you if you can offer a different (not necessarily better) way of writing any part of any of the programmes."


Some of the feedback I’ve had has, indeed, been very useful and has resulted in changes:

This on writing text ......

From Zotoaster
Quote: "If you want any tips for your programming, you seem to be wasting a lot of lines writing the text. Try something like this:"


See http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=96844&b=6

...... and this on the subject of the so-called dreaded goto statement

From IanM

Quote: "For the second piece of code, I'd suggest putting the numbers into data statements and using them to populate arrays that can be used in a for loop. Then I'd put a loop around that that would repeat until a selection was made.

Piece 3 just needs a simple flag that would determine whether the current character would be displayed or not.

The last piece is a little more difficult, not because of the code you show, but because of the code you don't. Your main loop can be a while/endwhile or repeat/until based upon a flag. If the flag is set, your loop exits.

It's a little hard to suggest stuff based on mini-snippits, but I hope that gives you the right idea."


and from Kieran

Quote: "believe me its dreaded there’s some posts floating around that explains why, do a forum search on GOTO"


See http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=98396&b=7


Gearce
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LANG MEY YER LUM REEK
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TDK
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 04:32
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Quote: "There has been very little, if any, feedback."


In my experience, that's a good thing!

Human nature makes it much easier to post being negative about something - or simply (although helpfully) pointing out where you did something wrong.

Unless what you did was truly amazing then saying something worked fine, was good (or great) takes a lot bigger effort.

So, very few (or no) comments basically means they can't find fault in what you did!

TDK_Man

* TDK's Game Programming Forums - Open To All - DB & Team Request Boards *

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gearce
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 04:45
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Appreciated TDK_Man. Point taken.

I certainly wouldn't say what I did was truly amazing

gearce
(GRC)

LANG MEY YER LUM REEK
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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 04:56
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Just testing my sig, it's my thread I can do what I like

I make music and art. Here is a sample of my art: done in Paint! It's all I have
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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 05:02
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sorry

I make music and art. Here is a sample of my art: done in Paint! It's all I have
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a314/Burtoni/Wealth%20Status%20Badges/small.png
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TDK
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 05:24
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Quote: "I certainly wouldn't say what I did was truly amazing"


The 'you' in my 'Unless what you did was truly amazing' was meant as a general you - not you personally by the way...

TDK_Man

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Sinani201
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 05:59
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LOL OBese, I can't get pics in my sig, either

Did someone say 3D scanning on my desk, or was that just an AdBot?
What happens when when you mix coke, pop rocks, vinegar, and baking soda?
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Latch
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 09:35 Edited at: 30th Jun 2007 12:14
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This is a funny thread!

Quote: "coders are being TOO helpful by simply dishing out their code and home-made functions "

Worried about proprietary rights?

Enjoy your day.
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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 13:44
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No, I just want to kill all the noobs, apparently
but we've managed to get that down to just the lazy "leeching" ones lol

I make music and art. Here is a sample of my art: done in Paint! It's all I have
[HOW DO I GET AN IMAGE IN HERE?]
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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 17:16 Edited at: 30th Jun 2007 17:54
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I drew this in MS Paint!!
It took 5 days!!!



WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING????
I used the image tags.

[EDIT] Yay! Finally got it to work.
I'm going to make a text based strategy game based on The Godfather.
What are the copyright restrictions seeing as I drew the picture myself?

I make music and art. Here is a sample of my art: done in Paint! It's all I have
[HOW DO I GET AN IMAGE IN HERE?]
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Lucifer
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 17:19 Edited at: 30th Jun 2007 17:21
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Quote: "I drew this in MS Paint!!
It took 5 days!!!"


OBese87, oh great.... what the hell does this have to do with anything??



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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 17:25 Edited at: 30th Jun 2007 17:25
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Quote: "Lucifer: what the hell does this have to do with anything??"


It has nothing to do with anything, I just wanted to try out the image tags that I can't seem to get working. How did you do your's.

I make music and art. Here is a sample of my art: done in Paint! It's all I have
[HOW DO I GET AN IMAGE IN HERE?]
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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 17:57 Edited at: 30th Jun 2007 19:08
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Sorry about posting again, I want to check if my sig image is working.

[EDIT] Yay! I'll try making a banner, this takes up a lot of space.

Here's another one to annoy Lucifer , this is for a Hitman Game I've put on hold as I want to get it right.

Woah! it looks awesome in .PNG format why is .png so much smaller than .bmp?? If anyone wants to use my images in their own game I'll send them to you for free (as long as you give me credit for them).

I make music and art. Here is a sample of my art: done in Paint! It's all I have
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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 19:04 Edited at: 30th Jun 2007 19:06
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Last one, i promise. My banner sucks doesn't it, I need a drawing program, does anyone know of any free ones?

I make music and art. Here is a sample of my art: done in Paint! It's all I have
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Lucifer
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 20:10 Edited at: 30th Jun 2007 20:12
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Quote: "Here's another one to annoy Lucifer"


i dont know who the hell you think you are, you come here, saying that noob's shouldnt get help from other people, and you arrived like? 3 days ago here? i know it says you joined 30th jun 2006, but i've never seen you here before.. and just because i don't agree with what you're saying you feel the need to insult me?

you're just full of yourself, you think you have the right to call other people noobs, yet you're acting like one right now..

i hope this get's locked pretty soon, you're not even on the subject you started this thread on anymore.now you're just posting random pictures..



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TDK
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Posted: 30th Jun 2007 20:15
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I think this thread has run far enough off-topic and is only going to go downhill from here so it's outlived it's usefulness.

Clunk...

TDK_Man

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