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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / A Question About Video Cards for the Experts....

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Amadeus
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Posted: 30th May 2003 07:36
Ok, Drew here. I was browsing some local computer stores and have seem some of the following. If you could tell me which one out the ones listed (or other for that matter) would be the best purchase. Money is not a question, simply compatibility, logic and speed.

GeForce 3
GeForce 4
GeForce SX
Radeon 8700
(Any others?)
Thanks.

Cheers,
Drew
Life is a tale told by an idoit, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. - MacBeth
Shady Simpson
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Posted: 30th May 2003 11:05
Well GeForce 4's are quite popular.

Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 11:53 Edited at: 30th May 2003 11:54
Radeon 9800 if you can afford it. That should set you back about £200.

The trouble is, NONE of the cards you posted support DirectX 9 fully, they are all DirectX 8.0 or 8.1 cards.

On the back of the box, you want to look for "Pixel Shader 2.0" and "Vertex Shader 2.0" or "DirectX 9".

DirectX 9 introduces a lot of very powerful tools, if you run 3DMark03's Game 4 Test (DX9 only), you'll see what I mean.

Cards that do support DX9 (and are thus futureproof for a while):

Radeon 9600
Radeon 9700 Pro
Radeon 9800
Radeon 9800 Pro

All GeForce FX cards (5200 is about the same speed as a GF4 MX, 5900 is top-of-the-range)

[EDIT: I think you did include the FX in your list, just misspelt it?]

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Dr DooMer
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Posted: 30th May 2003 14:30
Yeah, I'd say Radeon 9800 as well; especially because the 256mb variant is on it's way, if not already available.

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 15:21
Personally I have a 9700 Pro and it works very well, and is quite quiet as well.

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Amadeus
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Posted: 30th May 2003 16:31
Thank you for the tips. 200 pounds is roughly what, 300 bucks? Hold on, let me check on Yahoo, that's $330. That's actually not too bad, considering the product. Right now I have the OpenGL 300 something series, so anything that's better than that is worth buying into. Thanks for the info.

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Xander
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Posted: 30th May 2003 18:32
You probably already went out and bought a card, but just thought that I would add my 2 cents. Actually it would be a few hundred bucks. I would recommend a Nvidia GeForce FX5800. Blows the heck out of the Radeon 9700, and the Radeon 9800 is really expensive, but awesome if that is the way you want to go. I don't know which ones have DirectX 9 support, just trust that other guy for that support.

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 19:18 Edited at: 30th May 2003 19:18
"Blows the heck out of the Radeon 9700"

Literally, yes the FX does act as a much more effective leaf blower than the Radeon. In terms of 3D speed, the 5800 was about 2-4 FPS faster than the Radeon 9700 Pro in 3DMark03 - with the FX using cheating drivers! (NVidia's latest drivers cheat heavily in 3DMark03 - see www.futuremark.com or www.extremetech.com for more info).

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th May 2003 20:52
9800 Pro is actually $400 right now according to ATI. I can't find it cheaper for a discount anywhere either...

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th May 2003 20:54
Dirty, dirty! Both cheating! Apparently ATI was cheating 'less' but whether that's due to modesty or just less effective cheating meathods, I'm not sure...

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 30th May 2003 20:59
I used an FX5200 for the console-pc/db-box thing I made and it's nice, not the fastest of cards but is directx 9 compliant and handles all the dbpro shader commands nicely

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 22:00
Um, your buying a graphics card and considering ATI. I see this as a problem.

You may aswell drive into a car workshop and ask them to loosen all the bolts.

In my time as a technical support agent I feel that only Haupauge suffer more incompatabilities and technical problems than ATI. Haupauge are in a league of their own, but behind them is ATI with a solid performance in blue screen errors, driver incompatabilities, dead on arrival rate and long term installation failure rate.

As for chipset Rob makes some valid points - if you are spending a few hundred quid you want future proofing and the 'change' in the industry at the moment caused by Dx9 hasn't filtered into all the products out there yet.

Pneumatic Dryll
Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 22:14
@PD

I have never experienced any trouble with my Radeon 9700. The drivers are open source AFAIK as well. Sometimes the so-called "driver incompatibilities" are not always ATI's fault. Some developers only test on say GeForce systems until release.

"Dirty, dirty! Both cheating! Apparently ATI was cheating 'less' but whether that's due to modesty or just less effective cheating meathods, I'm not sure..."

ATI did not cheat. The crucial difference between ATI and NVidia is that NVidia got improvements at the expense of visual quality or scene detail, ie. avoiding various operations or reducing the quality of shaders to improve FPS, but done often in such a way that under normal circumstances it would not be noticeable as the camera is on-rails. ATI just modified some shaders so that they worked and looked EXACTLY the same, but suited the ATI cards' architecture better. This is called optimisation and is OK IMO.

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Amadeus
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Posted: 31st May 2003 01:07
Oook. No, I haven't bought a card yet. I was waiting till I graduate tommorrow, then I can have some more time to think about this. Thank though, everyone. So it seems the majority of you like Radeon 9800 Pro, I'm looking into my dealers right now (I have a few friends in the retail business that can buy the cards for me for the warehouse price because of his computer selling license.) Kinda helps when you need it to. BTW: Do I use the Beta test forum to post screen shots of the game I'm working on, or somewhere else? Thanks for all the effort guys.

Cheers,
Drew

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Rye
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Posted: 31st May 2003 01:12
if money aint a problem couldnt you spen S**t loads on the industrial gfFX i think its about £1400

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Rob K
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Posted: 31st May 2003 01:19
Use the beta test forum for screenshots

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st May 2003 01:51
ATi did not cheat?
funny... the only thing that gives the Radoens the power advantage is the Overclocked Processors.

GeForceFX 5200 vs a Radeon 9700pro at factory standard Drivers and standard settings in 3DMark03

5200 gets 2190 points
9700 gets 1740 points

as for DirectX9 Compatibility due to the Detonator Driver UDA if they upgrade support for one nVidia Card for full DirectX9 Support they upgrade it for ALL card supported under the drivers.

the GeForce2 GTS i am currently using right now default drivers are DirectX 7.0a Compliment ... However DetonatorFX drivers mean that i can now take full advantage of DirectX9, even if my card does not hardware support the drivers do.

i've heard alot of MIS-INFORMATION from you about the GeForce cards for a long while RobK ... especially saying that 4mx has no Shader support, even the GeForce256 has VertexShader 1.0 support, the GeForce4mx has Vertex Shader 1.x support as well as Pixel Shader 1.0 Support.
The 4Ti has VS 1.x/2.x/(3.0 Basic) PS 1.x/2.x/(3.0 Basic)
The Fx has VS 1.x/2.x/3.0-3.1 (Fx 5900 3.2) PS 1.x/2.x/3.x

and to be honest if money isn't a problem, $1,200 will get you a very nice QuadroFX 500 ... which can out perform everything else, and not by a little margin either (and thats without needing 256mb ram )

you best option right now would probably be the GeForceFX 5900 $680 as it is simply the fastest there is with the widest feature support and isn't only DirectX9 Compliant it is the only card capable of using 100% of DirectX9's features.

if your worried about speed, then check the nVidia Site as it scored a massive 8,256 on 3DMark03 which is on the standard drivers at standard speed ... against a 200Mhz overclocked Radeon 9800pro.
and to be honest the noise i've never felt has been a problem, i mean Dan do you think that the GeForceFX is noisy at all?
it has a fan and it runs as quiet as any other cards does, the only thing that might piss you off is that it takes up a second slot - not out of nessity but for the cooling system which reacts to the needs of the processor it also means you can overclock them with the Omega Drivers quite a bit if you want

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Rob K
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Posted: 31st May 2003 22:42 Edited at: 31st May 2003 22:43
"GeForceFX 5200 vs a Radeon 9700pro at factory standard Drivers and standard settings in 3DMark03

5200 gets 2190 points
9700 gets 1740 points"

Nonsense. My 9700 got 4100 points without any optimisation or the latest drivers (I get 4200 with Catalyst 3.4) . The 9700 IS WAY WAY WAY faster than the 5200. Check any online benchmark. This is with standard settings as well.

Now you really are making this stuff up and it is getting very annoying. You really are clueless aren't you.

"GeForce4mx has Vertex Shader 1.x support as well as Pixel Shader 1.0 Support."

Yet my 4MX card will not run any VS 1.0 / PS 1.0 shaders (which work perfectly on a friend's TI and my GF3) Shut up. I checked several places and some appear to think that the 4MX has very limited vertex but not pixel shaders, and the NVidia website states "nFinite FX" engine for EVERY OTHER shader-capable product, but not the 4MX.

"if your worried about speed, then check the nVidia Site as it scored a massive 8,256 on 3DMark03 which is on the standard drivers at standard speed "

Evidence please, as in, an actual link? - All the online card reviews for the 5900 I checked showed 4900 3D Marks (with 3DMark03 v. 330) or very close to that.

Again, you haven't done your homework, and you haven't got any proof to back it up.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 02:56
my GeForce2 run vertex shaders 1.1 even so Rob your full of it... why the hell would my poxy GeForce2Go! be able to run VS and yet the far superior GeForce4mx can't - explain that to me?

you want the evidence goto the site yourself and check it out, the news about the FX 5900 and FX 500's speeds are on the frontpage.

i mean 4,900 doesn't even break the current 9800pro's record of 6,300 and yet the GeForceFX 5900 is THE FASTEST card on the market right now behind the QuadroFX 500

personally i think you make this all up as you go along, just to try and down the GeForce's capabilities and dis everything that i say.
there are plenty of uses on here who also have GeForce4mx cards and most of them i know can run the VS demos' and effects which come with DBP ... and as i said even my GeForce2Go! can run them, i know they cutdown the support from the Ti version but they'd never take the support out which has been in ALL GeForce Cards.

and if you've got 4,100 from you 9700 within 3DMark03 then i'd tell you LOOK AGAIN at which 3DMark version you have, because although i'll believe that you got that in 3DMark01 there is no way in hell you got that in 2003.
the 9700 just us not capable of pushing that kind of power, the 9700pro could probably get around 4,000 mark but only if you overclock the sucker.
as for the drivers from standard to catalyst there is a 50% speed increase, which means you would have one hell of alot more update in points than just 100 - you should've got closer to a 1,000 point increase.

and don't tell me i'm making any of this up i've posted before complete statistics of 3DMark online benchmarking scores, the only way your system could be getting 4,100 is if you have a powerful pentium4 2.8Ghz processor in it with that Radeon 9700.
in which case that isn't a pure card score is it so how can you tell me what the card is capable of? I'd check the option to disable the CPU tests and run a Card ONLY test.

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Amadeus
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 03:11
ok guys. I didn't want to get everyone into a heated debate, I just wanted to know what's a good card to work with for gaming projects with many low-poly characteres and buildings. There is that question of ATI though. Someone around here told me the diff. between ATI and nVidia is that both will try to do a certain effect to the upmost ability of the card, however, if nVidia can't do it well, it doesn't do it and ATI will still try and may make it work out ok or crash the CPU. So I believe stability was an issue, making nVidia seeming to take the lead. Speed isn't everything. I want something that can be trusted as well as quick. A dependeble and consistent card is more valuable to me than just pure speed. If that were the case, I would just open the CPU box and tweak out all the stuff I didn't use to make the SOB run at some God-awful overdriven amount. Rob and Raven, maybe you guys fight alot, but I don't want it to be over something as simple as a video purchase, especially just inquiry from an outside source.

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wednesday
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 04:23
That stuff your friend told you about ATI is wrong, as far as I'm concerned. I've been running a radeon 9100 for a couple of months and it's been rock solid so far.

Don't buy into the ATI vs nVidia chestbeating, they both make good cards at the moment, at pretty much every user level (I sell computer bits for a living so I've made it my business to know these things, although I'm not arrogant enough to insist I should get the last word).

If you want my advice, strongly consider waiting a couple of months before you buy a new card. There are some huge games coming out soon like Doom 3, Half-Life 2 and Deus Ex 2, and by he looks of things your going to need a pretty sharp card to run these games at a reasonable resolution and frame-rate.

However, from what I've read no one really knows how these games will perform on budget cards (or even nicer ones) so be careful.

As for the fx5200 being faster than a 9700pro, well that's just hilarious. I don't think I've ever seen a more mischievous piece of misinformation since the Iraqi information minister interviews. Don't beleive this, it's rubbish.

If you want a good bang-for-bucks card the geforce Ti4200 are getting pretty attractive, at least in here in Australia. I would probably think hard before purchasing something weaker than this, unless you are just looking for a temporary system hike (which is what I did buying the 9100, very nice for the price).

But if you want performance then the top cards from both companies are okay (although the nvidia ones are too expensive in my opinion, and the fx5800 has the infamous noise issue).

That's my two cents worth.
Dr DooMer
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 06:36 Edited at: 1st Jun 2003 06:38
Well, as Raven's unwittingly pointed out, the only real problem with the Radeon 9800 is that it might instill a little jealousy amoung your friends, with it kicking out more power than most without even breaking into a sweat. Poor nVidia die-hards, they're having a rough time.

Anyway, I'll also back up ATI by saying that they're very stable cards. True, I had some graphical glitches in Windows (messed up cursors mainly) about a year ago with my 9000 Pro, but the drivers were updated only two days later and I've never had any problems after that; none at all.

Also, ATI's anisotropic filtering and full screen anti-alias (Smoothvision, they call it) are quite a lot faster than nVidia's, even though Smoothvision still cuts your FPS down to about 2/3 what it should be. Just do a search for a review of the Radeon 9800 and it'll give you all the benchmarks you need!

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 07:13
... FSAA on Radeons is just a joke though, it might run slightly faster than the Standard IntelliSample setting (which is set to Quality over Performance btw) but even on High-Performance the FSAA on all GeForce at 2x will only cut your fps by 5 and at 4x cuts it only be 15.

personally i don't believe much of the online benchmarks i see of the Radeon cards - i have some here, and i keep them as far away from my machines as possible.
quite frankly GeForce are the best budget cards, and thier top end perfomance is just remarkable... and i have yet to see someone show me otherwise to my face.
i hear all of these statistics all the time, which is all well and good when i hear something like "aww man i had a Radeon 9700 running Unreal Tournament 2003 at 1600x1200x32 and it was running at a sweet 50fps" - so what did i do, i decided to go down to the shops get myself a Radeon 9700pro ... set it all up.

First thing that happened was the entire vsync for my monitor went into a mode it couldn't handle, after sorting that out i spent 2hours just trying to get Unreal Tournament 2003 to even load using the bloody card. And when i did finally get it all going ... fast would hardly of been the term i'd use to describe its speed.
Next day i find out this friend has a Dual Pentium4 2.5Ghz Rig with 1.0Gb of RDRAM ... whereas i was trying to see this thing work on an AMD AlthonXP 1200+ w/512Mb Ram.
and aparently he also told me he was running Windows2000 not WindowsME and they aparently ME isn't a viable operating system for Radeon cards.

I also have a 9800pro ... and no matter what i do there is no way in hell i can get the bloody thing to benchmark as quick as the Radeon9800pro on the 3DMark03 site, and thats on a Dual Optiron 3.0Ghz system - same setting the lot.
It also rejects alot of the Shaders i create within Cg, and has a tendacy to garble all of the DOS games graphics i play. It oftenly rejects OpenGL games suchas Quake3 ... one minute they work, next it doesn't want to load because of a memory error.

as far as stability goes, if the Radeons are as stable as a Rock then that Rock must be make out of Marshmellow, because i've had so much greif with the cards i have i ended up buying a whole range of budget cards to fill the gap.
i've never has so much bloody trouble with a range of card since SiS, and to be honest i have one of the new 680's and it doesn't even give me as much grief as the Radeons.

quite frankly the only viable arguments i've heard against the FX chipset is the noise and the size ... and to be honest it is barely any louder than a the Radeon, which whipser quiet is not a term i'd give its fan - its as loud as the standard CPU fans.
Taking up two slot, well you can actually edit the card not to do that ... it only does it to make sure it never overheats without the use of the 3" tall heatsink lik CPUs use. It isn't a nessity.

and at the end of the day the GeForceFX 5200 is cheaper, runs FAR FAR cooler, is possibly if not the most stable card on the market ... plus it runs on CineFX 1.5 (total shader version support) as well as HCT IntelliSample which is faster FSAA than previous cards.

Quite frankly if you want to see a list of supported features checkout both sites, and it is noticeable from when you first open each page that the FX's is longer - as for Speed, the DetonatorFX drivers edit the speed problems found within the Detonator4 drivers
as for noise i doubt you'll even notice it - the only people who do are those geeks who've gotta have the least noisy system in the world, even then i personally have edited my FX5800 (and probably do the same to the FX5900 soon) to use a passive heatsink so zero noise at all ... take up the same slot space, but still less noise.

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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 10:05
Amadeus requested that this doesn't turn into a flaimbait. So I'll say this.

Raven, you are wrong, so shut up and accept it.

The GeForce cards and the ATI cards are both pretty reliable as far as hardware goes and I have no significant problems with either. Yes I have managed to crash both sets of drivers, but that was my fault for doing something rather stupid in DBP. I have never had any failures recently.

The GeForce 3 / 4 cards crashed left, right and center straight out of the box, however an update to newer drivers fixed the problems completely (some issues with XP apparently).

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wednesday
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 13:41
Any video card, or any addon card at all can have potential problems with conflicts.

And I've seen a radeon 9700pro running ut2003 with all the effects turned up and it was fine. No glitches whatsover.

At the same time we were testing a ti4600 with the same machine and it lagged constantly. I imagine the 5800 and 5900's are better, maybe even better than a 9700pro, but for most games at most resloutions I'd bet most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

You can benchmark the hell out of cards, but at the end of the day you don't play benchmarks.

You must be the unluckiest person in the world when it comes to these cards as I've sold dozens with no complaints so far.
Rob K
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 15:37
UT2003 + new graphics card = WOW!!

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 15:47
"i mean Dan do you think that the GeForceFX is noisy at all?"


My Geforcefx5200 doesnt have a fan, just a well designed heatsink

So It's about as noisy as a sparrows fart when the sparrow is contained within a soundproof room floating on a bouncy kids play castle with death gas inside to kill the sparrow before it even had a chance to fart...

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 17:13 Edited at: 1st Jun 2003 17:14
I take it that it's not that noisy then...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
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Dr DooMer
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 17:55
It does seem to me, Raven, that you must be doing something wrong to your ATI card - nobody else but you ever seems to have problems with them.

Oh yes, and mentioning OpenGL, there was actually a bit of a bad spot with Radeons a few months ago. Some of the older OpenGL games (Quake I and II were the ones I found) wouldn't load at all. Of course, ATI fixed that bug and updated the drivers a couple of weeks later, as usual.

Even though all this has been said, I'm not actually knocking nVidia at all. There's a perfectly good reason why they've been considered the best - their cards are fast and revolutionary; I just happen to be favouring ATI at the moment. I just want to see who comes out of all this as the number one...

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the_winch
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 18:23
Both will work well but it might be worth getting whichever is the most popular card. This will reduce the chance of problems with software. This is proberly nowhere near as important as it once was but remember the dbp ati bug.
Dr DooMer
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 18:37
Isn't that fixed in patch 4.1?

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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 18:58
The GeForce FX 5200 isn't too noisy - just the 5800+ I believe.

Yes, the ATI bug was fixed in P4.1.

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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 19:41 Edited at: 1st Jun 2003 19:50
Sorry if this is a reply to a post from a while back, but Raven - you're talking rubbish again!
Quote: "Next day i find out this friend has a Dual Pentium4 2.5Ghz Rig with 1.0Gb of RDRAM "

Dual Pentium 4 - I don't know where he bought/found the parts for this PC - you just can't build a dual Pentium 4 system! The only dual processor motherboards that intel are selling are for Xeons - Pentium 4's are for single processor systems. Also, I Opterons are only running at 1.4, 1.6 or 1.8Ghz at the moment - not you're '3.0Ghz'.

I also wonder how you just go out and buy a new card like an ATI Radeon 9700 Pro just to run some benchmarks - this is quite expensive! You also have you're dual Opteron system, Radeon 9800 Pro card and countless other high quality computer parts. Somehow I don't beleive this.

Am I the only one on these forums who is slightly skeptical?

I'm actually getting really tired with Raven's comments to many posts - he talks as if he knows everything when most of the time he gets a lot wrong. I know someone like him who says they have everything/done everything/seen everything, when actually if you think about what they say with a bit of skepticism, you realise that they are talking nonsense just to sound 'cool' to everyone else. </rant>

Anyway, back on topic, I suggest just getting the card that you can afford. Not one manufacturer's products are much better than the other, so you can't really go wrong. What I do know, is that the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro is slightly faster than the GeForce FX 5800, which is slightly faster than the Radeon 9700 Pro. I don't know for sure about the FX 5900, but it's probably about the same speed as the Radeon 9800 Pro. If money isn't a problem, I suggest buying one of these four.

David

Spec - Abit NF7-S nForce 2, AMD Athlon 2100+, 256Mb PC2700, ATI Radeon 9000Pro, 20Gb Seagate U6, DVD-ROM, Zip 100, 15" TFT monitor
Juso
23
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Joined: 23rd Sep 2002
Location: Finland
Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 18:14
I just loaded 3dmark03 and run it with my Radeon 9700 pro and I got 4026 points. Ati's drivers are from CD which I got with Radeon last month.

And my computer is 2 years old Amd 1400 MHz with 256 M ram and Win 98.
Rob K
Retired Moderator
23
Years of Service
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Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 22:23
Indeed - my fast benchmark score was on a faster processor (overclocked at 2Ghz - now it is back down to 1.6 though)

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