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FPSC Classic Product Chat / [LOCKED] Debunking the Myths: Vishnu vs PGPs

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Locrian
19
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Location: Burton Mi.
Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 22:06 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2007 22:10
Quote: ""No offense, S4 and Loc, but I think Pheonix is a ton better. Vishnu is really light on the protection, takes forever to decrypt, seems kinda' thrown together, and I think it slows down your games.""
Inspire
Quote: "
"Phoenix, much faster, easier to use, and doesn't affect your fpsc game that much.....plus, it's free.""
Silent Thunder

Quote: ""It is an honest opinion. What's wrong with that? I thought it seemed thrown together. Not to say that they didn't work hard making it, I'm just saying that it seems incomplete."
" Inspire

Quote: ""While I like Vishnu, I think Phoenix feels a bit more professional and definently offers more features. I'm not actually sure what's in the free version as I have PRO from Beta testing, which I like alot. I haven't used the latest feature additions though due to the fact I'm either on this cruddy laptop or on my other one from 1999...which I run in DOS most of the time (Windows 98 is messed up on it).""
Airslide


These are a series of videos making up a three part answer to the Myths on the TGC forums. Vishnu offers the same protections PGP dose with the only exception being the online registration. Being it would be in horrible taste for either of us to show actual cracking methods what we'll look at is instead what your customers going to see, and see which is more profesional.

Posted below is a link to S4 site. The page that houses the links is in the "Latest News" section, and not giving a direct link to the videos keeps me within the parameters of the AUP, because these could be considered by some as "antagonizing" or "baiting", and therefor a violation. I think all know we've been quiet for far to long, so in saying that... Let us begin "Debunking the Myths".

http://s4projects.out-lawz.com/index.php

Best
Loc

In the spirit of allowing people total free speech, that which may not be supported by this public forum which supports no third party software in the first place, if you have a contention of any of the comments feel free to use my forum on the link below, or make your own video responses. You will not be censored in any way there.

xplosys
18
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Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 22:15
I'm not able to watch the vids. The first two say they are private and the third says it was removed. Do we have to wait a while?

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

Locrian
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Location: Burton Mi.
Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 22:22 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2007 22:24
Oh sec....was waiting on s4 and forgot not live.

Made Pub. Had placed them for S4 to view before they went live...My bad.

crispex
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 22:24
Well it depends, which game protection would be harder to crack?


Not a Vista user, but a Vista Theme user!
Locrian
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 22:33
I'll answer no questions here, as it may violate the AUP. You can watch the videos and dispute the facts on another site(my 3d.design below).

crispex
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 22:37
I'm not asking you how to crack it, I just want to know the hardest one to crack! (I have not the slightest clue on how to crack!)


Not a Vista user, but a Vista Theme user!
xplosys
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 22:50
I still can't watch the 3rd one. It say's it was removed by the user.

best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

Uthink
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 22:51
How hard would depend on the knowledge of the hacker.
xplosys
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Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 22:59
It think it will end up being a question like "Which one is better, Norton or McAfee?" Anyway, who could answer it unless they did a nationwide survey or something.

Let's be realistic:
Most people on this forum will never need game content protection.
Of the ones who do, it will probably come down to price first, ease of use, and then level of protection. There are of course exceptions, those who will actually complete a game for distribution and need protection. They will ultimitely be the ones to decide, and all this bull between the others is just that.

I like this.... I like that. Wonderful, but meaningless.

Thanks for the rant space. If I owe anything, let me know.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

FredP
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:09
I can't watch the third video either.Says it's been removed by the user.

Please have mercy and use the search function.
AaronG
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:25 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2007 23:35
Someone please tell me, why isn't this locked?

I don't think it should be allowed that someone (in this case, Locrian) should post crap like this. I mean, in the end, all he's doing is saying S4's product is better, because he supports it.

Someone lock this, please. This is not advertising, this is a direct attack on Pheonix.

I do not like your sarcasm, and because of this-I am sticking with Pheonix.

Also, Dave is advertising on his website. Respect it.

It's people like YOU who I don't like around here.

-AaronG

(Locrian-try having a banner advertising Vishpoo instead of ranting.)

Nickydude
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:38
Yup, definitely removed by user. Is it mean or does Locrian sound a bit like Penn of Penn and Teller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw?




Search for "HellHouse" in Showcase.
DOMRAY
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:40
Locrian is just showing us how his product stands up to the rest, nothing wrong with that and i see no need for this thread to be locked.
Quote: " don't think it should be allowed that someone (in this case, Locrian) should post crap like this"

its not crap its facts.


It's better to Burn Out than to Fade away.Victor Kruger/The Kurgan
crispex
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:44 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2007 23:45
Quote: "Someone please tell me, why isn't this locked?"


Can somebody please tell me why you have the need to say every topic should be locked?


Not a Vista user, but a Vista Theme user!
AaronG
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:47
What are you taklin about man? This should be locked.
It's not debating, it's just a direct attack on another product. He also mocks Dave and his website, including the product and his thread.

-AaronG

crispex
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:52
People have the freedom of speech, I like PGP personally, just because the developer is a great person!


Not a Vista user, but a Vista Theme user!
PowerSoft
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:53 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 01:25
If, and only if, the claims Locrian are making are true (I don't want to bother comparing the two, too much else to do) then this thread is fine and locking it would potentially be seen as censorship and a (deleted:impartial) bias nature by the mods. In other words this thread covers tricky ground.


That said it's only a forum, no need to fall out.


-Rich

The Innuendo's, 4 Piece Indie Rock Band
http://theinnuendos.tk:::http://myspace.com/theinnuendosrock
FredP
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:53
To whom it may concern,
If you have something intelligent to say please say it.If not,then please leave the elementary school crap somewhere else.

Quote: "(Locrian-try having a banner advertising Vishpoo instead of ranting.)"


How old are you?4?
Here's the skinny:Vishnu is easier to use,it works and the last thing that the people that play my game want to do is have to jack with passwords,online activations,etc.
I have it set up so you can download the installer,double click on it,install it quicky.
Then it puts an icon on your desktop and you just double click it to play the game.That darn simple.
Easy to use and easy for the people that play my games as well.
That's my opinion and I am sticking with Vishnu.

Please have mercy and use the search function.
Inspire
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:54
Locrian:

As I type this, I am listening to your mean-spirited attack on Dave (at least this is what I perceive it to be). As far as I can tell, you aren't debunking any myths. You are pointing out the fault's in Dave's program, and glorifying your own, while not even mentioning the shortcomings of it. You can't even compare the two programs, as DarkFact's, in my opinion, is such a high quality program, that it makes yours seem indie and incomplete. I firmly believe that Pheonix is the World Leading Privacy and Security Software Developer. As you attempt to debunk the myths, you blurt out many untrue or opinionated facts, and mock users from around here, including Benjamin A, for example.

I don't want to watch your third video, if you deleted it or not, because listening to your unintelligent banter and your sad attempts to cover it up are not a way I want to spend my time.

And I think that AaronG has every right to say what he said, so lay off it.

Benjamin
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:55 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2007 23:55
Quote: "Someone please tell me, why isn't this locked?"

Because the only mod that has posted here is rather partial to Vishnu...

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
AaronG
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:56
Haha. Wow man. Thanks for the support.

FredP
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2007 23:58
Quote: "If, and only if, the claims Locrian are making are true (I don't want to bother comparing the two, too much else to do) then this thread is fine and locking it would potentially be seen as censorship and an impartial nature by the mods. In other words this thread covers tricky ground."


What?Locrian provided a link to check out the facts.Nothing that he said or that was in the videos is in this thread so there is no need for moderation at this point.

And as far as moderating goes if you read the AUP you will find out that moderators do have the right to censor,edit,etc. threads if necessary (and you agree to this when you post BTW).
Once again I do ask that you try to keep this thread civil.

Please have mercy and use the search function.
AaronG
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:04
It's Ok FredP, we all know you're sucking up to Loc as well.

xplosys
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:08
That's not support, that's a childish attack. For some reason, some people don't think a mod should have an opinion, especially if if it's not the same as theirs.

Locrian has always been stright forward and rough when it comes to diplomacy. (or lack thereof) I found some of his taunting to be borderline, but I am more interested in the difference between the two programs than I am with whoever made them.

If you make this personal, then a lot of people are going to be offended. If you just take the information for what it is, and make an informed decision, then I think you'll come out better in the long run. If on the other hand you've already made up your mind because of affiliation with the creator, then you will certainly see it as an attack.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:09
Quote: "That's not support, that's a childish attack."

What are you referring to?

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
AaronG
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:13
It's not a childish attack. I admit mine definitely was. But Inspire's was most certainly not. We are all entitled to an opinion here. You call my and Inspire's posts childish, but you don't look and see what Locrian himself has posted. Now that, my friend-was a childish attack.

FredP
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:19
Quote: "It's Ok FredP, we all know you're sucking up to Loc as well."


I suck up to no one.
Aaron,
I asked earlier that you refrain from making posts that have nothing to do with this topic or that were useless,etc.
If you have some personal issue with me then I have an e-mail address and you're welcome to e-mail me or whatever.Feel free to e-mail Loc if you wish.I am sure he will be happy to respond.
As for sharing my opinion...I don't do it as often as I would like but I still have the right to say my piece as long as it falls within the AUP just like everybody else.
As a mod I also have the right to press these shiny little buttons in the mod control area.
I was fairly nice last time (nicer than usual) when I ask that we keep our posts within the topic and post in a mature,adult-like manner.
Now let us all try to do so.

Please have mercy and use the search function.
shadow651
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:26 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 00:31
oh god this is going to turn into a war i can't side since i don't have either but on what frep said it being easier to use i'm more leaning for that
as for AaronG let the mods do their job and keep quiet you don't have to read this topic or even be in it so stop complaining and let the mods lock what they want to lock not what you want to lock

edit
Quote: "We do not tolerate posts made for the purpose of putting down another forum member, group of members, religion, our company, our staff or any of our moderators, past or present."

i'm almost certain AaronG broke the AUP by saying
Quote: "It's Ok FredP, we all know you're sucking up to Loc as well."
xplosys
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:26
Quote: "Haha. Wow man. Thanks for the support."


That's what I'm referring to. And for the others....

Quote: "You call my and Inspire's posts childish"


Wrong.... Try to follow the thread.

best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

Candle_
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:40
It does not matter that we are descended from monkeys, the only important thing is to avoid going back.
- Richard Wagner

I see nothing wrong with the videos and no attack on anyone.
So lets keep it civil.
Thanks you, my two cents.

Silent Thunder
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 00:56
I mainly said what I said because I don't like how Vishnu doesn't let you alt+tab or ctrl+alt+del. Which most of the time makes me have to restart my computer, thus taking a much longer time to play Vishnu games. That's all I meant by my statement.



Click on the picture to order your copy today!
crispex
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:01
I think you all are acting childish about this, everyone is entitled to their opinon!


Not a Vista user, but a Vista Theme user!
PowerSoft
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:01 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 01:14
Quote: "What?Locrian provided a link to check out the facts.Nothing that he said or that was in the videos is in this thread so there is no need for moderation at this point.

And as far as moderating goes if you read the AUP you will find out that moderators do have the right to censor,edit,etc. threads if necessary (and you agree to this when you post BTW).
Once again I do ask that you try to keep this thread civil."


And I ask you not to go defaming me and I ask that you read MY post again and see no where do I say this thread should be locked I merely said it was a minefield for moderators. The fact that the statements being said are true but covers the fact it could create a whole plethora of other points to be raised such as making this a personal battle between the authors of the software and create a seperation in the forum, for example.

Please feel free to raise any personal problems you may have with me somewhere else, email for example, as I wouldn't want to be accused of getting a thread locked.


[edited to make point clearer and rephrase slightly]

Quote: "And as far as moderating goes if you read the AUP you will find out that moderators do have the right to censor,edit,etc. threads if necessary (and you agree to this when you post BTW)."

Also I am aware of the AUP as I have been here for a good few years. The type of censorship I'm on about is potential 'spin' from moderators (general not specific mods) favouring one (thread) above another (eg spin).


Quote: "That said it's only a forum, no need to fall out."


The Innuendo's, 4 Piece Indie Rock Band
http://theinnuendos.tk:::http://myspace.com/theinnuendosrock
s4real
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:15
Though this may be considered "mocking" in tone, you guys that have been around the forums know Loc. You may not like the way he says it, but nothing he says is a lie. PGP has a decent software, but were showing facts to what people have said on the forum.

If you have a problem with vishnu then that''s fine but please if you are going to post statements about the product please back it up with facts instead off just saying it because you like pgp better.

Best s4
crispex
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:16
Now I am begaining to think this topic should be locked, causing too much of a stir in the forums.


Not a Vista user, but a Vista Theme user!
rolfy
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:28
Wow,what a hornets nest,
It's inevitable that folks are going to takes sides here and it's a shame to see the community in dispute like this.
Darkfact had said his intention all along was to release a Phoenix free version,but by doing this he has killed any chances of either product selling to the casual developer.Most users on the forum want something for free and Vishnu will probably now be completely overlooked by the small developer.
This on the one hand is a brilliant,if ruthless,business tactic.But the fact is we are all in the same boat here and as indie developers should be suppporting one another.

In my opinion Vishnu is better for the small developer and hobbyist wanting to protect his media with it's ease of use and low cost.
Pgp has it's role with the more serious developer with many thousand units to sell who wants the extras.
Phoenix will most likely acquire this small market (from these forums that is) by releasing a free version,but in effect has tried to cut Vishnu out of the picture.

I dont know how many folk here are actually familiar with both products,but Locrian is responding in kind to remarks made about his product by folk who probably haven't used it,otherwise they would know the facts and Locrian wouldn't be posting here.
The truth is both are going to do the job.

You may think Locrians tactics are ruthless,but not much different just less subtle.
It should also be noted that Locrian has always supported and backed up his fellow indie developers on these forums.

Inspire
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:29 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2007 01:34
Quote: "That's not support, that's a childish attack. For some reason, some people don't think a mod should have an opinion, especially if if it's not the same as theirs."


A childish attack? Please don't say that you are calling my post a childish attack. If you are, then I think you are just taking it that way because you disagree with it.

Quote: ""Debunking The Myths" is a little dry and exaggerated, there is no myth, you and S4 have made a product and Dave has made a similar one to yours, that's called Business and Competition, It seems to me that you can't handle the competition so you had to go do a thing like this, and look where it has got you.


It makes me laugh and I knew you would trip up one day, but then again, people make mistakes, nobody's perfect, I have made plenty of mistakes on these forums that I now regret."


You said that better than I ever could.

About Aaron:

You claiming that FredP is sucking up to Locrian is a bit over the line, but I agree with what you said, to a certain extent.

I take back what I said.

After some thought, I take back what I said, but not all of it. When I stated that Pheonix was a high quality program, and yours seemed indie and incomplete, I was putting down the program, instead of arguing with you.

Pheonix and Vishnu are two different programs, with two different goals. You have already admitted, in another thread (the original Pheonix thread), that Pheonix offered high-end protection, unlike Vishnu, which offered fair protection for a low price. I take it that you saw that the majority of the forum favored PGP, and you took that badly. If I didn't have a free copy of PGP Professional (from beta testing it), I might've looked into Vishnu. Same goes if I didn't have the money to pay for a Pheonix license. But they do have their own special uses, I suppose.

For future reference, I have nothing against Vishnu. Just you and your attitude, Locrian. You are a very skilled artist, but you need to learn to play nice. I think you took a serious misstep in posting this.

EDIT:

I just noticed your post, rolfy.

Quote: "It should also be noted that Locrian has always supported and backed up his fellow indie developers on these forums."


As far as I can tell (based on many post I have seen by him), he is an angry, moody old chap. He is quick to snap at someone about menial mistakes.

vorconan
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:31
S4 has a point, I can't believe how far this argument went in such a small amount of time.

I personally don't think of it as attack, if my memory is correct, S4 and Loc spent a lot of money on this software and naturally they would want most of it back. So this seems basically that Loc feels Dave's product is getting in the way of sales. It was rather harsh the way he put it, 3 videos isn't exactly a light way of proving a point and I respect Arron/Inspire/Underside's views towards that, but I don't think Locrian would mock anyone from these forums or their products on purpose considering his good reputation on purpose.

Anyway, maybe this thread should be locked for the sake of vishnu's reputation through it.


Inspire
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:36
I agree with you, vorconan. I think that this thread should be locked, to keep this argument under control, and settle this on email. Your call, Fred.

PowerSoft
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:40
If it goes to email it's gone to far. People take comments too seriously, you have to ask yourself the question if someone said that to you in the street would you turn round and punch them?

Everyone take a chill and let this thread be on topic.

The Innuendo's, 4 Piece Indie Rock Band
http://theinnuendos.tk:::http://myspace.com/theinnuendosrock
Inspire
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:41
Quote: "If it goes to email it's gone to far. People take comments too seriously, you have to ask yourself the question if someone said that to you in the street would you turn round and punch them?

Everyone take a chill and let this thread be on topic."


Haha, you have a point.

crispex
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 01:45
This is starting to become a topic of hatred! Please, close it before the community turns angry at eachother!


Not a Vista user, but a Vista Theme user!
Thraxas
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 02:20
I watched the two videos and while you may not have liked what Locrian said or the tone in which it was said it was just a comparison with his personal opinions... I think he was quite reserved from what I have seem from him in the past...

For those people who haven't used both I don't believe you are in any position to make a comment on how the two compare... for those that have used both then they, at least, will base their opinion on the two pieces of software on facts...

@Crispex... everyone knows your opinion on this thread now, so you don't need to keep posting it!

[center]
FredP
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2007 03:23
Give me a reason to lock this thread.Why should I lock this thread when the original poster has done nothing wrong and any problems or issues caused were by others and not the original poster.
Really,though,Locrian did post that he requested all opinions be posted elsewhere and we basically have ignored that as well.
So I'm locking this thread.I have to say that Locrian has handled this quite well.

Please have mercy and use the search function.

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