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3 Dimensional Chat / Softimage XSI 6 Mod tool has been released + ongoing inversion issue (everyone welcome)

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Redmotion
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 22:20 Edited at: 15th Aug 2007 22:40
It's a new version of the FREE pro standard modelling/texturing and animation package for game content.

NB: That's FREE for non-commercial use.

Supports textured and animated direct x imports and exports.

Also exports .obj, to lightwave, valve models, .fbx , .xsi files and works with XNA Games Studio also.

Plus it features crosswalk to and from 3dsmax and Maya and GATOR (allows you to transform skeletal animation from one object to another regardless of differences.) and MOTOR (for working with motion capture.)

Info here:

http://www.softimage.com/products/modtool/inside.aspx

Download it for FREE here:

http://www.softimage.com/products/modtool/getmod.aspx

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Redmotion
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 22:34 Edited at: 14th Aug 2007 11:51
Tips for getting started:-

Press icon in top right hand corner of window to switch from 1 to 4 view layout

Hot Keys for use:

Hold down "S" to move camera-
left - pan
middle - zoom
right - rotate

Use mouse to select an object:

Transform/Move = V
Scale = X
Rotate = C

Editing components:
Use the following keys to start selecting
U - faces
I - edges
T - vertices
Space bar to come out of compenent selection

N = add polygons
Ctrl+d = duplicate selection (objects or components)

F - fit view to selection
A - fit view to all scene objects

7 - Open material designer called "render tree"
8 - Scene Explorer
0 - Animation editor
Alt+7 - UV editor

Number pad shortcuts:
+ - increase sub-division level by one step (without increasing models polygons)
- - decrease sub-division level by one step

Lastly, if you've used XSI before you can switch the interface to a view more familiar by going to the Mode menu and selecting "XSI default (pro mode).

Redmotion
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 22:34 Edited at: 13th Aug 2007 22:41
I've also been using a brilliant new tree/plant generation plugin for XSI called T-Gen. The v6 version of the plugin works in the mod tool if you use this default view. It's great for generating low and high polygon trees and plants.

More info about T-Gen is available here:

http://www.simartom.com/



If you want to mess with motion capture you can use the "import acclaim" option with a brilliant motion capture library for experimenting which can be found here: http://mocap.cs.cmu.edu/

Make sure you download the .asf and .amc files as you will need both.

Enjoy.

CattleRustler
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 23:14 Edited at: 13th Aug 2007 23:14
nice!
I just started using XSI, I knew about the mod tool for a long time but never realised it was a wicked stand alone modelling app, I assumed it was just for Valve HL stuff - boy was I wrong! Its got everything and its free.

I think if more people looked into xsi, especially those that are on a low or no budget scenario, and cant afford max or maya, would use this app in an instant.

thanks for the heads-up on version 6

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
Redmotion
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 01:52
No worries, hope you enjoy using it! It takes a while to get into but once you know what you're doing you'll not want to touch anything else - it makes complete sense and everything else you touch will seem like a clunky, cluttered mess!

Quote: "I think if more people looked into xsi, especially those that are on a low or no budget scenario, and cant afford max or maya, would use this app in an instant."


Words of wisdom!

Give it about a year and XSI is going to be massive.

If you need any help you'll find loads of people at xsi-base.

MikeS
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 07:42
I had the first version, but didn't really bother to get to far into it. I'm downloading this right now. I think I'm going to tough it out and try to complete my toolset using this for texturing and animation(wings3D for modeling).



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Redmotion
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 11:49 Edited at: 14th Aug 2007 11:58
@MikeS - good luck. If you need tips, don't hesitate to ask.

You might also like to try out the modelling tools. Once you've had a bit of practise with it you'll probably want to use it for modelling too. There are a few annoying quirks with a few tools like extrude along a curve (operators) but the polygon modelling tools are great:

Example:
1. Select your object and Pressing M will bring up the tweak tool.
2.Press the magnet icon and then hold down Alt+middle click on an edge that runs all the way around an object.
3.you can then move the entire edge loop up the model without changing the shape of the object.

EDIT: The Mod Tool also comes with lots of video tutorials showing how to get around the UI, modelling, etc.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 12:33
*In the voice of the Toy Story Aliens* oooooooooohhhh

This might come in handy until I decide to buy the proper version.

Hakuna Matata
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 15:21
MikeS!



I am curious to know what you think of xsi 6 ModTool. I think its the dogz arse! (thats a good thing)

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
JimB
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 15:28
Its amazing they are giving this out free,looks really good it was a chunky little download (431Mb)though,all I got to do is learn how to use it
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 15:50
Well it is quite generous, but hey it keeps the modding community happy and those who become serious about modelling skip along and buy the thing, so it's a good marketing thing. Though unfortunately I think you're only allowed to use it personally and for mods.

But hey, I'm still waiting for it to download

Hakuna Matata
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 20:49
Redmotion, I've noticed that when I export dx objects the models show up y-rotated 180, or other translation oddities. It's like everything when viewed in the dxviewer and dbp is "opposite" from how its positioned/rotated in xsi - whats up with that?

thanks in advance

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
Redmotion
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 22:21
The direct x exporter has always exported with all objects vertices flipped along the X axis. I've spoken to Softimage about this and investigated further and it seems that DBPro and XSI have different co-ordinates arrangements. But theres nothing else to do but do a work around - which is explained at the bottom.

NB: I've not tried this flipping with character animation/skinned characters, as freezing mesh isn't possible on skinned models (you should freeze them before you start rigging/animating). But considering you can re-apply the animation again to a flipped mesh of the final character its not much of a problem.

If it doesn't bother you that it is flipped (for sure noone playing the game will realise its flipped - unless there is text on it) you may also find that textures are screwed up on the direct x file. But again, if you flip the textures horizontally they will line up again. (I had to do this for my 'grand machines' physx compo entry.)

Second thoughts I could probably write a script for this...

Oh, one more thing - when exporting direct x you should also check the triangulate button, just as a precaution.

http://redmotion.blogspot.com/2007/06/exporting-directx-files-to-dark-basic.html

CattleRustler
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 22:40
i read that tut yesterday but the "scene flip" aspect didnt jump out at me as I wasnt sure what that was about until I experienced it first hand.

thanks for the info again

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
CattleRustler
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 04:02
so is it correct to say that the xsi coordinate system is right handed, where dbp is left handed? xz inverted?

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
MikeS
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Posted: 16th Aug 2007 07:11
From about an hour or two of evaluation, I must say Mod Tool is the tool to have for mods. The animation system rivals MotionBuilder, the way you can dynamically move and pull limbs on the pre-rigged objects.

I'm still messing around with the modeling tools, as there is so much to do. Overall though, I like the feel to XSI compared to Lightwave and other high end packages.



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Posted: 16th Aug 2007 12:56
Well XSI isn't famous for its animation for nothing. I haven't touch my downloaded copy much yet - looks pretty damn cool though and I'm glad that they updated the mod tool to version 6. At least it'll provide me practice before I get into buying Softimage|XSI Foundation.

I've always loved XSI when I've played with the demos. I'll get into it more later though, probably about the time I've had all my fun with the Silo 2 demo and when it runs out, luckily I'm running the beta demo, meaning I can gain an extra 30 days by downloading the final release demo.

Hakuna Matata
Redmotion
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Posted: 16th Aug 2007 16:39 Edited at: 16th Aug 2007 16:45
Ok. The Softimage.com website really doesn't sell the extensive commercial work made with XSI so I've turned to the Japanese website softimage.jp for the lowdown. Unless you can read japanese it's not too useful but there are many images of our favorite videogame characters being edited, highlights:


Lost Planet

Resident Evil 4

Metal Gear Solid 3

Resident Evil on Gamecube

Gladiator (the movie)

300 (the movie)

Coming soon:

Fable 2

MGS4

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Aug 2007 17:10
Don't forget the animation in Happy Feet!! You can't forget that, surely.

Hakuna Matata
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Posted: 16th Aug 2007 19:30
anyone know how to set the coordinates system to match dbp?
Either as a global setting, or per scene for exporting to x?
(I know about redmotion's scene flip, I am looking for an alternative via settings if possible)

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
Redmotion
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Posted: 16th Aug 2007 22:29 Edited at: 16th Aug 2007 22:39
@Seppuku - Hey its a long list!

@Cattlerustler -
The best thing you can do is email softimage about it. I asked them to add a flip along x axis checkbox to the exporter but as I was the only one in the world (I think)... they didn't bother!

What's your workflow? What are u exporting exactly, is it just polygon meshes?

CattleRustler
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Posted: 16th Aug 2007 23:20
yeah, for now I am just learning this package (have experience with 3dsmax and ac3d) so aside from anything having to do with HL2 (which I am not concerned with atm) I would be exporting polygon meshes and/or models made from nurbs modelling to ---> .X via the dx exporter, for use in the dbp enging (dgdk.net). So far all is well with textures and animations, but this inversion/handed issue is pissing me off

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
Redmotion
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 08:53 Edited at: 17th Aug 2007 11:49
Quote: "So far all is well with textures and animations, but this inversion/handed issue is pissing me off "


Same here, which why I came up with a workaround.

If you would like to test the script I'm going to write, I would be grateful for your input.

(Actually, I never heard of anyone doing game art with nurbs before! XSIs polygon tools are far superior for game content - the nurbs ones haven't been updated for years. Nurbs surfaces get turned to polygons on export and therefore you have no control over the number of polygons which are used in the final model (or what it looks like).)

Redmotion
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 12:14 Edited at: 18th Aug 2007 00:12
Right, first version of the script is done. All you do is copy and paste the code into the script editor. Select the objects you want to flip and press the run button.

Warning: make sure you make a backup of your work and save it first as it might only going to work on certain objects.

Let me know how you get on and any problems so I can try to resolve them. You'll realise its much faster to do a script. (Make sure that in preferences, you select vbscript as the language type.)

EDIT: code removed

EDIT: perhaps the DBPRo "Load object" command could have a further parameter added to the end set to either a 0 or 1 to flip the X axis of vertices on loading?

CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 14:56
ill begin testing this in a little while

Quote: "perhaps the DBPRo "Load object" command could have a further parameter added to the end set to either a 0 or 1 to flip the X axis of vertices on loading? "

nah, imho xsi is the one out of whack here, since DX and DBP are the same handed, and line up perfectly (ie DXViewer compared to DBP), so xsi is the odd man out. Lets try and sort it there

imho we should try and get xsi to be WYSIWYG with relation to dbp/dx

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
Redmotion
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 15:19
If you want that to happen you'll have to email Softimage at support. They may take note! But i doubt it.

For me, the low cost (£299 or free - now) and the extensive tools in XSI means I can get over this inconvienience and just live with it.

Imho, I still think the ball is in TGCs court - the art pipeline for DBPro has always been a nightmare - I think TGC should make a .DBO exporter for XSI (I'd pay them for an all-app DBO exporter pack if it worked properly), I wish I could do it myself but C++ and binary files are beyond my paltry coding skills (although I think I could just manage to rewrite the DX exporter so it worked with DBPro - but considering 98% of people here would overlook it and noone else uses .DBO (still can't see why a REAL format like FBX wasn't introduced instead)... whats the point?)

Get over it and get on with it, I say! (Afterall, You didn't see the people who made the sandman in Superman 3, go "oh theres no "make a sandman" button in our program so we can't do it..".)

CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 16:26
Quote: "If you want that to happen you'll have to email Softimage at support."

you misunderstood, I meant via your script, not trying to persuade SI to alter their app.

anyway I am about to try this...

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 16:49 Edited at: 17th Aug 2007 16:52
ok...

I have attached a zip with three files, a jpg and 2 x files

the jpg is a render capture from my a test project
the cr_test03.x is how the scene gets exported
the cr_test03_flipped.x is how the scen is exported after the script is run.

I think what the original problem is, and what your script is doing are not the same. What do you think? Also I cant explain why the materials were stripped out after running the script.

see attached ----------->

I think what we need to do is attack the X file either via a new exporter, or after the x is compiled via a new converter app, but either way I think we need to define the original problem correctly so we know exactly what is occurring, and what needs to be done to correct it.

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 17:52
Aha!

look at these two files in the attached zip ---->

jpg is scene render as is in xsi
x is after straight export (no flip script)

i think this clears up whats occurring

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 18:50 Edited at: 17th Aug 2007 18:57
heres a sise by side screen shot, you can see F (front) and B (back) are inverted when exported to x, but all else remain correctly oriented




EDIT: forgot to mention, when loading this model in dbp (dgdk.net) it appears exactly the same as the DXViewer result: all ok except for F/B reversed.

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]

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Redmotion
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 18:54 Edited at: 17th Aug 2007 18:54
Could you post up the schematic view (tree-style view of the scene) for the scene before you flipped it? Or even better, your XSI mod tool scene - I'll have a look when I get home.

CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 18:58 Edited at: 17th Aug 2007 19:07
yep, here you go, attached the scene's exp file
let me know if you need anything else.
thanks

-------->

EDIT:
btw, the screens and everything above that use the FBLRUD have not had your script run against them. this is to determine what is happening soley with the built in exporter and xsi's handedness.

EDIT 2: In case you dont know, I am an applications developer by trade so if we need something coded, like an app that corrects/modifies the x file for example, we could do that - I would just need help with the data particulars. That seems like it would be a handy tool for xsi/dbp users (if we end up needing such a thing - just a thought)

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 19:51
Is there a flip tool in SI:XSI? You might be able to fix the issues there, or if the scale system works like Hexagon's or Silo's try to scale on the axis until it starts to invert the selected model(s)...if not, then I'm sure there's other ways of working around it.

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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 22:28
Okay, all images with blue background were viewed in DBPro using the following code. Therefore, I assume with a camera set facing the default direction and in the same direction as shown in the XSI view.



This picture is a model exported from XSI straight into DBPro.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 22:29
This pic is your (cattlerustler) model. It has been flipped along the Z axis before exporting.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 22:31
This shows the model from picture 1 flipped along the Z axis with the code below and then exported. As you can see, in DBPro it now looks right.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 22:35 Edited at: 18th Aug 2007 00:13
Below is the amended code for flipping along the Z-axis. (I said X before but it appears to be the Z axis.

@Cattlerustler - Also, in your scene you posted up here, you need to freeze the text objects with the FREEZE button and if not animated it is sometimes good to goto the TRANSFORM menu > Freeze all Transforms.

EDIT: code removed

CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 22:44
I do freeze M and save exp before exporting

so what you're saying is we need to use that latest script to flip Z before exporting?

have you tried an object not resting on the X axis, like put something not symmetrical a few units forward in z, and a few units left in x, then export without running the script, the object should not only flip sides, but it should mirror, kind of hard to explain but give it a try.

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
Redmotion
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 22:49
Actually, I'm sure the script I posted above actually works right. So I'll keep you posted.

Redmotion
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 23:42
Ok, if you look at the scene in XSIs plan view, objects to the "south" of 0,0,0 in XSI are positive co-ords, whereas in DBPro they are negative. X and Y are the same.

Currently flipping along the Z axis seems to make all the normals flip too though.

CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 23:47
yep, just did another test, it seems all Z is multiplied by -1, but everything else transform-wise is left alone

could this be corrected in the x file itself?
I could write an app to do it but I would need a primer in the x file data structure.

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 23:54
update: it gets worse, its not just object positions, its everything related to Z including any alterations made to objects that makes them non-symmetrical, everything gets inverted

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
Redmotion
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 00:09 Edited at: 18th Aug 2007 00:38
Last one. Script works now.



All objects should have their transforms frozen and the freeze button worked on them before running.

If the objects are not flipping you haven't frozen all the transforms. Select an object and check on the transform panel that ALL transforms and rotations are 0,0,0 and that scale is 1,1,1. It won't work properly otherwise.

It doesn't work with SRT animated objects however, although I'm looking into it.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 00:54
Just don't let the guys at CGtalk having a Maya argument know about this thread when people argued that they have to script in Maya to get what they want it to do when 3DSMax and Softimage just does it. Or something along those lines.

Well anyway, sounds like you've got a solution there, so I'll bookmark this page for when I get the problem.

Hakuna Matata
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 01:20 Edited at: 18th Aug 2007 01:26
well, not really a solution yet, the script will invert the Z axis, but also it inverts the normals, doesnt yet work with animated objects (which is crucial), and causes you the keep two projects for any one project, one to do the modelling, one to Save As to and run the script and do the export. Not that thats too big of a deal, but if this whole issue ruins animations then I am back to square one, again, 3 years running.

But dont get me wrong, I commend Redmotion's work so far - lets see where we end up

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
CattleRustler
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 01:28
I am fiddling with a solution that works against the X file, rather than as a script that alters the xsi scene. but just "fiddling" mind...

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 01:33
I see, I suppose if you were making a Michael Jackson Moonwalk game, the backwardness would matter. I'll keep an eye on this, though I don't quite need animation and exportation just yet (I need to learn how to do it in XSI first )

Quote: "but if this whole issue ruins animations then I am back to square one, again, 3 years running."


Haha, I know what that's like, learn to work with C4D 6 and to model, learn to animate in it, learn DBP - get an engine built up to a stage where you need your model animated to continue, you animated it and export it to find the application is too old to export .x files as animations, even with its plugin for it. But it can't be all that bad, the .x file exportation is aimed at the XNA lot isn't it? If they're getting something with it then there should be a solution.

Redmotion's work so far sounds good though.

Hakuna Matata
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 01:46 Edited at: 18th Aug 2007 03:13
heh yeah


I just figured out how to tweak the x file's values that affects the Z position of the object. I was able to export and reverse the export's position inversion by chaning one value

ill keep ya's posted.

EDIT: and above when I said "3 years running" I really meant 4!

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
CattleRustler
Retired Moderator
21
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Joined: 8th Aug 2003
Location: case modding at overclock.net
Posted: 18th Aug 2007 03:12 Edited at: 18th Aug 2007 03:16
ok, I have had a eureka moment. I have figured out what is going on in the x file data and have identified the major sections that certain values need to be changed in order for dx and dbp/dgdk to render the model as it appears in the xsi scene, after the export. In other words models exported as x from xsi will be WYSIWYG as far as dbp/dx is concerned.

I will begin working on a util that will build a corrected x file from a source x file export.

Normals will remain unaffected, animation data will be assessed after this first major step is completed.

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
Redmotion
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Joined: 16th Jan 2003
Location: Mmm mmm.. Marmite
Posted: 18th Aug 2007 11:20
@Seppuku - the main problem with most of the complainers on these websites is that they just want new features to play with. More often than not they are not members of companies that actually need them for their work but individuals just tinkering around and feel insecure when they see another app gets something they don't have.

In XSI, things will be changing very soon, the number of available solutions to problems should go into orbit when they release the new moondust core (which basically will allow people to create new features inside the application without having to code/script): http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=31964 Read reply #9 at this thread for an explaination.

@Cattlerustler - respect to you if you can do that! Good luck. That would definitely work better for everyone. Last night i exported an .xsi file and a directx file and noticed that the XSI file is the route of the problem. One is created and then read by the plugin to generate the x file. What I think should generally happen is all the z co-ordinates need to be multiplied by -1 to flip them.

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