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3 Dimensional Chat / Zbrush, its worth?

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Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 16th Sep 2007 20:34
Hi

I had been in a Zbrush forums this days, and I'm amazed with the models created by ordinary people out there using Zbrush.
for example:





I wonder if its that easy to use and if its worth, because it is so expensive, like 600$ and I can´t waste my money in another useless app, I don't have much money right now...


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JimB
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Posted: 16th Sep 2007 20:41
You could try Silo2.
http://www.nevercenter.com/
Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 16th Sep 2007 20:52
wow! thanks, this one its cheap! I gonna try the trial.


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Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 16th Sep 2007 21:10
Im trying it right now and I like it, Were can I find a good tutorial?


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JimB
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Posted: 16th Sep 2007 21:16
Oolite
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Posted: 17th Sep 2007 14:58
ZB is worth it, just don't expect it to be brilliant for your indie games.

Quote: "I'm amazed with the models created by ordinary people out there using Zbrush. "

So professionals aren't ordinary?


[Looking for work]
Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 17th Sep 2007 15:21
I finally got a Silo´s license.

Quote: "So professionals aren't ordinary? "


Im not a english native speaker, I did my best...

Cheers


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5Louiz
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Posted: 17th Sep 2007 16:39 Edited at: 17th Sep 2007 16:41
Both ZBrush, Mudbox and Silo are worth their prices.

But if money is a decisive factor, look at some links:

Link, Link, Link, Link, Link, Link, Link, Link, Link, Link.

Blender I saw other impressive works, but I forgot to save links to them.

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
Alucard94
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Posted: 17th Sep 2007 18:26
Damn I want ZBrush the abillity to paint the texture directly on the modell is just soooo tempting, but I wasted my last money at photoshop

I model I clean and I cook for you... AND I STILL DONT GET A COOKIE!!?!!?!?!!?!??
5Louiz
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Posted: 17th Sep 2007 18:50 Edited at: 17th Sep 2007 18:54
You can do this in Blender, Alucard94. Not as accurately as in ZBrush, but the Blender team is working hard on it

Edit:
But I guess you will have money before Blender becomes as good as ZBrush in it. So you will not have to face Blender's interface

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
Alucard94
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Posted: 17th Sep 2007 18:58
Yeah I do admire that the blender team has made such a 3dsmax-capable modeller () and releasing it free for the community I truly worship them, I do have blender hidden somewere in my harddrive but the interface is seriously scaring me, so many buttons and drop-downs and stuff I'm going for anim8or to make my models now, and eventually maybe even sell them some day to make enough money to buy ZBrush wonderfull to daydream ey?

I model I clean and I cook for you... AND I STILL DONT GET A COOKIE!!?!!?!?!!?!??
Accoun
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Posted: 17th Sep 2007 19:27
@Sopo: You can also try mudbox. It's more for modelling than ZBrush. I think Bond1 uses it.
http://www.mudbox3d.com/

Make games, not war.

Oolite
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Posted: 17th Sep 2007 22:14
Quote: "Im not a english native speaker, I did my best..."

That didn't translate well, i was joking.

You speak better english than a lot of people on here anyway.





GETZBRUSH


[Looking for work]
Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 17th Sep 2007 22:37
@Oolite: thanks , Finally I bought Silo 2 (yesterday), Im really happy with it, zbrush looks a lot better but its so expensive to me right now, maybe next time... thank you for your suggestion.

@Accoun: Mudbox 3D its more expensive than Zbrush! it looks cool but I don't have much money right and I already bought Silo 2, thank you for your suggestion.

5Louiz: I had tried Blender before, also Wings3D, artofillusion and anim8or but I didn't like them at all, I felt uncomfortable with them. Thank you for your suggestion

@Others: Thank you for your suggestions!


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Libervurto
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Posted: 18th Sep 2007 19:38
mudbox looks awesome! it's like clay!
I'm trying to use blender but can't find any decent tutorials, can someone recommend any?

In programming, nothing exists
Deathead
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Posted: 18th Sep 2007 19:51
I'll give you advice. Never ever use a circle unless its below 19 vertices.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Sep 2007 23:39
Simple answer:

Silo2 + Zbrush 3...Silo 2 will be great for getting your base resoliution meshes with all your edge loop in place which means a smoother job in Zbrush where you just paint in the extra geometry and details into multi-million polygon meshes. Silo 2's tools are moulded for the most speed and convenience in 3D modelling and Zbrush has a set of decent brush tools and other tools to make modellings more like painting with it's extra high resolution open gl real time renderer which is why it's so damn gorgeous.

Combine both and you've got a got set on your hands however...remember 'make something good' isn't 'just easy' in these apps, it takes learning, experience and a level of skills - it's tools are fantastic, but the rest is always up to the artist of course.

I shot the sheriff
Raven
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 13:48
Professional tools for professional people, I know that sounds silly; but while I use Maya and Mudbox (having to learn ZBrush for work now), just because someone like myself can do something with these products that generally wows people.. doesn't mean it is because of what I use.

The reason I use the tools I do is because I find them easiest to get the results I want quickly with tools I've been happily using for over a decade.

Most who get ZBrush, Maya, Max, Softimage, etc.. Look at what the professionals can do and purchase based on this fact.
Not to be harsh or owt, but most who get them for that reason believeing that the tool makes the artist REALLY need to sit down with a peice of paper and pencil.

Those creating amazing results, not only have been using these tools (or similar) for a very long time and/or have huge artist talent to begin with. I would wager highly that I could model circles around someone who bought Maya/Max simply because it's used in top-end games using Milkshape3D. Simply because I know what the hell I'm doing and have a natural artistic ability particularly with 3D; which I've practised for a very long time now, and from a much younger age than even the youngest on this board.

A tool means nothing if you can't get on with it properly. This is why whenever the question of "what is the best" comes up one of the first answers is "try them all, it depends on the user".

Some of you will at some point just have to face facts too, that no matter how much money you spend and how much time you put in; you will never reach the level of those producing the showcase work for any of the professional level products.

Just because you pay pro prices, doesn't mean you automatically get pro talent. Start with something in a more realistic price range that you won't feel upset having spent. If someone honestly has the $3,000 odd to drop on an art program they'll end up hating when they finally give up and feel that's cool; then god I wish I had your funds. Seriously, I work damn hard and have to get quite a few products to keep up with the industry and keep learning them on my own time not company time where we are constricted by deadlines.

I certainly as hell don't feel these products are worth more than what I spent on getting myself a car, and I felt that was a bloody struggle enough.

Seriously for the love of god try-before-you-buy. I don't mean pirate it either, because it just adds to the number and means these companies then push the prices up cause they can claim piracy is cutting in to their profits. It's why they're so damn easy TO pirate. If there is no trial, then don't touch it.
Trials tend to last 30days, use that time and cram. Don't piss about for a couple of hours in total, because that really isn't the attitude to take towards learning a product to see what it can do. Don't go into huge ass projects like modeling a person, most of you will do it bloody wrong anyways and end up with a box figure that has some remote resemblance that everyone here will tell you is the best thing since sliced bread; then the poster gets upset when I tell them it's a sodding box and they need to try better.

This might seem like a long ass rant, but seriously read it. LISTEN to what I've said. Take it in. I'm checking these boards more often again, and I feel like pushing people to do better like I used to again. Those from RGT days will know exactly what I can be like with this.. and you'll soon learn if you weren't around then.

The same goes for those who seem to have taken up my old role, and you know who you are. Pots calling kettles black. I'm going back to my old respect is earnt not given nature; so you best have earnt that respect to get decent treatment.

Van B
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 14:13
Quote: "This might seem like a long ass rant, but seriously read it. LISTEN to what I've said. Take it in. I'm checking these boards more often again, and I feel like pushing people to do better like I used to again. Those from RGT days will know exactly what I can be like with this.. and you'll soon learn if you weren't around then.

The same goes for those who seem to have taken up my old role, and you know who you are. Pots calling kettles black. I'm going back to my old respect is earnt not given nature; so you best have earnt that respect to get decent treatment."


So you mean your gonna rant like an idiot, get heated when someone challenges you, and at the end of it still have nothing to show us.

ReQuote:
I'm going back to my old respect is earnt not given nature; so you best have earnt that respect to get decent treatment.

How about showing us what you can do instead of ranting for a change. Seriously Raven why not apply these rules to yourself first before applying them to others - if your gonna challenge peoples abilities then you have to base that on something tangible. I'm all for people being constructive but when you go off like this it just leads to flaming, and nobody learns anything. I think you have a lot of useful advice you could impart on people here, but your posting style is akin to writing it on a brick and throwing it at them .

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
Jon Fletcher
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 15:12
Quote: "but I wasted my last money at photoshop"


how was that a waste!? photoshop (imo) is more of an asset

Some of Ravens points are correct although written slightly harsh, dont be fooled that just becuase the program is built for this kind of stuff that the average joe can return these results, most of the people showcasing on the forums and all sorts of places are very talented and experienced artists beforehand.

Quote: "How about showing us what you can do instead of ranting for a change."


Although im not trying to beat on you, i'd also like to see some of your work, any links?

Van B
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 15:32
Last newsletter has a link to my last game, Nanoid, in the nVidia competition section.

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
Jon Fletcher
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 15:41 Edited at: 20th Sep 2007 15:41
sorry, i meant Ravens, as you did

BiggAdd
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 16:07
Yeh I would also like to see some of your work. That "Challenge Raven" Thread died off a bit suddenly.

Sig removed by BiggAdd because he is everywhere.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 19:03
I've never seen Raven's work, I've seen his ranty posts but never found anything I could trust his opinion on - I'm sure his advice is useful are great, it is true, you don't get good by buying - pro tools can give you more and perhaps much easier means of producing results, but those results are yours. That I totally agree with, even if I don't like his ranting style.

So Raven, please, show us something, I'm sure your work isn't that aweful, you know post a bit and maybe some of us could give you crit for improvement (Don't mean to sound like I'm being mean, just playful intimidation. ) When I saw the 'Challenge Raven' thread, I thought finally you were about to prove yourself to us as a 3D modeller, but it seems you didn't deliver your word.

I shot the sheriff
vorconan
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 20:19
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=112059&b=3

Check this thread and look for Sharp Construct, it's free and works just like zbrush. It should get you started quite well.



Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 21:19 Edited at: 20th Sep 2007 21:25
Raven´s words are too much obvious to be useful... also I felt I bit misunderstood.

vorconan@: Thank you, that a brilliant suggestion! I'm installing it right now!


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Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 21:31 Edited at: 20th Sep 2007 21:38
You know what? the link to the second file called "gtkmm" its broken I cant install it without this file! If someones have it please send it to me, I really want to try it.


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Accoun
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 22:04
It's GTK+ libary. GIMP uises it. You need to have the latest version.

Make games, not war.

Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 20th Sep 2007 22:44 Edited at: 20th Sep 2007 22:45
I already have the GTK library, but this software has three things, "The installer", the "GTK" (called here GTK-win32) library and also something called "GTKmm"

I need the "GTKmm" file.

Oh well, I gonna google maybe I find it somewere...


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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Sep 2007 09:56
I have read tons of Raven's posts over the 4 years I've been on this forum, and not once have I seen a piece of art. I wouldn't take him too seriously

Zombie 20
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Posted: 21st Sep 2007 13:03
Sometimes reading raven's posts takes 4 years haha just kidding raven you do go out of your way to explain a lot and I just wanted to say that.

I don't really know about art programs except for the original ms paint, which still kicks ass to this day.

Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2007 00:15 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2007 00:17
Wow! Seriously Silo 2 Its awesome, its so easy! Look at my attached file!


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Sureal Chris
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2007 00:21
You may say it's easy, but your torso, honestly, isn't very good. You've got no edge loops so it basically looks like it's made out of corigated card.
Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2007 01:02 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2007 01:11
I only had been working 1 hour on it By the way, Were can I find a tutorial about how can I do loops correctly in Silo? I only had been using this software for 3 days or so...


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Sureal Chris
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2007 01:05
Well, I apologise for rippin into what I thought was 'serious' work.
Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2007 01:26 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2007 01:28
@Sureal Chris: I only was showing what I'm doing with the program that JimB had suggested to me previously in this thread, nothing serious, it is just something random, its my first model with Silo3D, I bought it like a week ago and I only had been using it for 3 days,so I'm not really in to it yet...


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2007 18:52
Sopo, you want some edgeloops/Silo tutorials? check out these couple of resources - one is a low poly basics tutorial I made in Silo 2 and then you can look at the making of my Demon model (it contains lots of useful information I used to create my Demon model, including quite a bit on poly loops)

Low Poly Non-Human Character in Silo for beginners
http://seppuku-arts.66ghz.com/seppuku05/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=9

My Making of The Demon (so far) - look at comments by Airflow and John-S, they provide useful tips, images and links.
(The first image is crap, but I build it into what I've got now)

http://www.3dunderworld.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=693

Hope it helps.

I shot the sheriff
Frap
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2007 19:06 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2007 19:09
To be honest Raven does have a point, and though I havnt seen much of his work recently on these forums, I have in the past. What he says is does ring true, not every one is capable of producing a fine painting such as Rembrandt or Dali.Exactly the same applies to 3D graphics.

As for his point on the software use what you are comfortable with, I have been offered so many times the latest copy of Max but I am so happy with Max 5 I honestly dont want a cracked version, and there is very little I cant achieve with max 5.

Im not saying that I am profesional, I have in the past done some paid work,and I do sell my models now, However I am under no illusion that I am of the standard required for a professional games company or ad agency, Sometimes we just have to face facts.

I would also like to point out that myself and Raven have dissagreed on many occasions and often heatedly. Though I when he is right and getting flammed for it I think its wrong. Though he could also take a more diplomatic approach.( Nick Igoe formally Banshee Studios)

BAck to the main point:
Use the program that you are most comfatble with, that offers for you the best help ( tutorials etc) and with practice, time and patience hopefully you will get there.

Modellers need to eat
Van B
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2007 22:38
Quote: "Though I when he is right and getting flammed for it I think its wrong"


Nobody is questioning the points he's raised, what I and others take exception to is his bloody attitude here, he should be made aware that an attitude like that just won't go unchallenged. He's only interested in posts where people sit and agree with him, believe every word he says - and sadly for him that's harder and harder to do here with no proof. Case in point, Raven's distinct lack of a response here. He constantly critisizes the moderators, but the reality is that mods have to watch him like a hawk - if he had proof that he was capable of half of what he claims then that would be a different story.

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
Alucard94
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 16:42 Edited at: 24th Sep 2007 19:23
Calm down fellas'! Jeeze it's like you think Raven said something like " " which he ofcurse didn't. Sure you might not have ever seen his work but do you really have to have proof on everything, he makes some good points and I agree to 100% with him. Jesus people relax this thread is ging so offtopic.

Mod edit:
= Don't post crap like that! I don't care if you are trying to make a point. Next time there will be consequences.
-Ron

I model I clean and I cook for you... AND I STILL DONT GET A COOKIE!!?!!?!?!!?!??
Jon Fletcher
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 17:53 Edited at: 24th Sep 2007 19:24
Quote: "" Quote eaten by a hungry WOLF ""


umm..

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 18:32
He did, it's just you can't see it, he used invisible pixels, I mean he's special like that, if it hadn't been for this special pair of goggles I would have been confused too...

Besides I don't think we were flaming, we were just grasping a point mixed with Raven's continuous claims that came without result, I know we were being firm, but not flaming the guy, I mean people only deserve flaming when they've been completely out of line and constructive methods have failed to get through...as far as I am aware Raven hasn't been out line, just evasive when it comes to the point when he can't back his previous claims to his advice...

I shot the sheriff
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 19:37
Quote: "This might seem like a long ass rant, but seriously read it. LISTEN to what I've said. Take it in. I'm checking these boards more often again, and I feel like pushing people to do better like I used to again. Those from RGT days will know exactly what I can be like with this.. and you'll soon learn if you weren't around then.

The same goes for those who seem to have taken up my old role, and you know who you are. Pots calling kettles black. I'm going back to my old respect is earnt not given nature; so you best have earnt that respect to get decent treatment."


The entire problem with what Raven posted is quoted above. Pots calling kettles black? How about kettles calling pots black? It works both ways. As quoted, respect IS earned. Someone here needs to do some earning before demanding. That is what the above posts are about. No one here will be "dealing with what anyone can be like". There will be "decent treatment" OR there will be slaps and post approvals. "Pushing people to do better" is great. Do it in good manner. There is a HUGE difference between "acting" like something special and being "treated" like something special. The roles are obvious.


a.k.a WOLF!
Alucard94
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 13:56
Quote: "umm.."

Ofcruse I didn't mean that, nowone could possably think that way, it was just to make a point Don't think of me that way.

[OFFTOPIC]
Oh and btw Jon, could you please answer to the email I send to you at your gmail account I would be very gratefull

I model I clean and I cook for you... AND I STILL DONT GET A COOKIE!!?!!?!?!!?!??
Jon Fletcher
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 16:04
sorry i must have missed it, can you send it again please?

Alucard94
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 16:20
Okay

I model I clean and I cook for you... AND I STILL DONT GET A COOKIE!!?!!?!?!!?!??
Alucard94
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 16:46
Did you get it?

Sorry not meaning to toally offtopic the entire thread people so don't be pissed on me On topic though, does this thread really need more replys? It seems to me that he who started the thread(whom of which I just can't remember the username of right now ) got what he wanted.

I model I clean and I cook for you... AND I STILL DONT GET A COOKIE!!?!!?!?!!?!??
Van B
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 16:49
I reckon the threads served it's original purpose already, it's not like people will come here for lots of details about zBrush, folk tend to try demo's rather than listen to our ramblings anyway .

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
Alucard94
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 16:53
Agreed.

I model I clean and I cook for you... AND I STILL DONT GET A COOKIE!!?!!?!?!!?!??
Alucard94
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Posted: 26th Sep 2007 20:32
Jon did you get the email?

Yeah sorry for spamming or whatever but as I have seen it there are no PM system so this is my last resort

I model I clean and I cook for you... AND I STILL DONT GET A COOKIE!!?!!?!?!!?!??

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