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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / mmorpg programming

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hatekilldestroy
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 07:16
I havn't gotten dbpro yet, I should be ordering it soon but somethings been bugging me so I figured I'd ask. I plan to program a mmorpg but I keep hearing things about how i'm going to have to use another language like c++ or vb to make the server or something. To be prefectly honest I have no clue where to start in trying to make the game I plan to make work correctly online but I know that I really do not want to have to use c++ for anything but if that's what it needed i'll do it. Anyway I was just wondering if there was anyway to just use dbp in making the mmorpg without sacrificing gameplay quality and if there is no way to do so then can someone point me in the direction of some help files or tutorials to help me learn what will be needed in programming the online aspects of my game.

thanx,
curt
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 07:50
DBPro could act as the server on a Windows web server but not a linux one, because it needs DirectX running in the background. I'll not try and start a debate as to which is best or security issues etc... Just that it is possible.

That said, the fact you need to ask this question does highlight that perhaps you are not really ready to undertake such a project.

I know you will try anyway, but over 20 years of programming experience does give me some insight as to what will happen next, it goes something like this:

1) I'm just about to get DBPro and I want to make the best game ever, please make 3d models for my game because i'm not a great modeller.

2) I need programmers for my game because I need help and it doesn't do what I want.

You will of course be heavily flamed for even mentioning an MMORG, and everyone will tell you to start a smaller project first. You'll set out to prove them wrong.

With good intentions, technical prowess on other platforms, determination and self confidence - you will fail, sadly.

Whenever you change programming platform it takes most people around 2 years to fully understand every nuance, although good games should start coming out of your finger tips after around 6 months if you work at it.

This may sound like a long time because a total novice can pick up the principles of programming a BASIC languages in around 2 weeks, scientists tell us. However nowhere is it said that you can walk in off the street and program a commercial calibre game in those sort of timescales.

You need to start with small games, solve one new technical challenge at a time.

Imagine an athlete who is a 110 metre hurdler called Gerald, Gerald's desire is to cross the finish line at the end of the race. On his first go Gerald runs strait for the line, but he trips over a hurdle.

Undaunted Gerald tries again, this time focus' on the hurdle just 10 metres infront of him, success! Gerald has crossed the hurdle, he keeps focusing on the short term goal of the hurdle, and sooner or later he finds himself by the finish line.

This little moral story is most apt for programming, start small, develop your skills, then you will find it easy to make the big games.

Failure to follow Gerald's example will result in running strait into a hurdle, with all the cuts and bruises that come with it.

Pneumatic Dryll
hatekilldestroy
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 08:17
well I wasn't really considering linux I don't care much if it runs on linux for some reason I just want the game to work for me on windows.ok, darkbasic can act as a server,good, thank you. I I appreciate the fact that you wrote so much in your reply, but I would like to say that I am not totally unexperianced I have made a few games and I am actually a pretty good modeller and I am also good at skinning and texturing. I already have a "team" so I won't be asking for any help other than the post I just made, unless it's absoloutely neccesary. Also the odds of me failing aren't quite as high as the odds of me succeeding for one I know that it is going to take along to time to learn what I need to accomplish this project but all I have to learn is that online part everything else i'm already decent at I havn't been programming for 20 years but I have for 3 and I have a good deal of knowledge when it's comes to programming "my" type of games. I really do appreciate your post but I felt alittle belittled by it. thank you
indi
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Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 9th Jun 2003 08:36
linux and wine or winex might be a solution, In fact Im heading down that path as we speak and configuring a mud solution to help track and manage my users.

If it get stuck I can pay $20 to have transgaming make DBP work in a Direct X psuedo emulated state on a linux box with winex.

hatekilldestroy
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 08:43
cool
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 09:27
Please prove me wrong, it happens sometimes. Not often mind

Pneumatic Dryll
indi
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 09:45
I would never try to invalidate your work dryll but I do thinks it is possible.

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 10:27
I don't want to dash his dreams, I did say he'll get to his goal - I just believe that he would achieve it quicker by focusing on achieveability before complexity and learn DBPro by first making small games, not MMORG's.

Perhaps it is a small game that just happens to be online - hehe

Pneumatic Dryll
indi
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 12:39
Im all for starting at the start, A MMorpg is the creshendo of years of study, something you will fail at if you havent the single/multiplayer experience previously

adr
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 13:11
Of course it's not impossible; DBP supports some kinda networking interface, so online gaming on any scale (theoretically) is possible.

However, I'm gonna have to share Dryll's rather pessimistic view here...

I don't wanna put words into dryll's mouth, but what I think he was implying that you can't tear off the cellophane and then go headfirst into a circa 24 month project.

In my opinion, programming experience teaches you how to structure programs; Irrespective of language choice, if you've been programming for years, all your programs begin to get an idiosynchratic, almost personal feel to them. Experience is not a license to pick up any old language and instantly write to the same standard as your other preferred languages.

To the original poster: dude, you'll find the full stop or "period" key inbetween the comma and question mark keys. Try out the carriage return key too sometimes... ;o)

hatekilldestroy
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 18:36
thanx shizzle but this is an online forum not an english class. Anyway I don't intend on starting the project as soon as I get dbp well actually this project has been in planning for about a year already, but I don't plan to start programming until I know dbp extremely well. I never said that I was going to start programming it the day DBP arrives, the mmorpg is just my "ultimate" goal.
adr
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 19:13
I think it's cool the way everyone seems to buy DBP and learn it, working towards their personal holy grail of gaming.

Soyuz
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 21:20
One day someone here will complete a MMORPG...one day...
MikeS
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 21:39
As of now there are like 3 or 4 in production.

The one that really caught my attention was shadowgate.Also Eddie guardo's, one called terraton, yet I can't remember the other one.
(my apologies.)

I think they will actually get completed.



(Current)-Conquest of the Continent Announced!!-
(progress)-concept/story/goals finished-
(misc.)-Learning milkshape- (as current as)6-7-03
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 21:50
Quote: "As of now there are like 3 or 4 in production."


3 or 4 realistic ones yes, and 300 new ones in planning since the start of June - that'd be funny if it was a joke.

Myrrmidia is perhaps not the most developed game at the moment but does actually have an Alpha server up and running already and you can wander around the world.

Shadow Gate shows some promise, but I remain unconvinced that it will get finished.

I've not seen Terration and havn't spared the others much consideration when I saw 'need modeller prz'.

Pneumatic Dryll
Inkybro
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Location: Where I live :)
Posted: 9th Jun 2003 22:31
Hey, look at me!

I'm 13, I programmed tiny TINY things in QBasic when I was 10. I've been into programming since the age of 7 or 8. I've studied WAY more about how programming works and that it takes patience then how to program anythign more than a mere calculator (although I got the DB Demo and I'm working on a graphical calculator). My point is that I know that I can't get DB and start pumpin' out commerical games and MMORPGS, so therefore, neither can you. (Considering, like you said, you have a LITTLE bit of programming experience, same with me).

DB looks so cool, I don't even have it yet, I hang around here though to get an idea of it and stuff because I will be ordering PRO soon. As we all know, the only reason every newbie wants to make an MMORPG is cause it's just so cool, SO COOL! It's not like sitting down and typing "Make an MMORPG!" you ahve to PROGRAM (but that's what makes it fun ).

And just so you don't feel like I am totally against you and your idea: My ultimate goal is also an MMORPG, once I know hwo to program and have the requirements I need, every one of them, including the time. I've started to plan mine, and intend to until I have what I need to make an MMORPG, but until then I can make mini-games and games.

Good luck with your MMORPG, don't get yourself hated, start with smaller things. Have fun with DB/DBPro and I hope you have as much determination as me to learn the whole of DB/DBPro!

MikeS
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 22:55
The more I think about it, mmorpg's aren't much fun.
(from my experience.)

Alright it was asheron's call 2.I wandered around shooting things with my bow.The most people I met was 3 at once.It was kinda fun, but we killed about 100 rats with daggers.

Alright so maybe that's not the best mmorpg, and I'm dying to try shadowbane.Although I here it's so laggy it's not worth buying.

Also think of it this way, once you design an mmorpg think of how many bugs your gonna have to fix,this includes technical, and so-called cheaters.Bringing up shadowbane again, I heard one of their servers got hacked.I bet that was fun to fix.

How fun to mmorpg's sound now?

My overall goal someday is to program an mmorpg, with a team.Yeah I could maybe start doing that now, but it would be buggy,laggy,money consuming, and almost a waste of my time.

I'll get to it eventually, but it will take many years.

So I think most of us have gotten our point across, don't worry I myself have started threads on mmorpg's, and until now I realize how foolish I was.For now I'll just focus on single player games, and maybe, a simple 2 player game.



(Current)-Conquest of the Continent Announced!!-
(progress)-concept/story/goals finished-
(misc.)-Learning milkshape- (as current as)6-7-03
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 23:18
Inkybro, you may be 13 but you have the head twice your age when it comes to approaching the task of solution finding (ie. making an MMORG) which is fundamentally what programming is all about - finding solutions. You even speak like you are much older!

Any help you need, MSN me if i'm on and i'll be happy to give you instant answers where I can. It's refreshing to hear such a considered approach from a newbie, and amazing from one so young.

PS: Is my spelling OK?

Pneumatic Dryll
rapscaLLion
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 23:56
I have to agree with pneumaticDryll. It's all been said and done before, every noob (excuse the term "hatekilldestroy" ) has just picked up DBP, has a team, wants to make an MMORPG. It may seem like we are trying to put you down or something, but we are being serious, this is sound advice. NO ONE has EVER made an MMORPG in DB/P before. Online games are possible, they have been made before but never a Massive Multiplayer game. You may not even realize what a tremendous goal that is. It would take years to make. Hell RO has been in beta test for ages and it still hasn't gone commercial. No to mention the sheer cost of operating decent servers, and such. You should start small. I mean tiny, and work your way up from there. I don't mean to say it's impossible to do it, but no one has ever delivered on the claim that they will stay dedicated to making an RPG. So you either don't know what you are saying, or you really believe you can make this MMORPG. In that case you think too highly of yourself. If you were say, a master C++ programmer who could learn DB in a day, make a client and a server and somehow get the money to RUN the MMORPG, then I would be more optimistic. You'll have to forgive my meanness, but it's frustrating when you see this every day.

PS- No, this isn't an english class but it helps a lot if we can easily read your post.

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Cras
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 00:02 Edited at: 10th Jun 2003 00:19
following on from the above... a master at c++ with a whole team of other masters. Remember commercial games are all made by huge teams, and they reuse loads of old funtions from other programs and they plan it and get the motivation of reasonable monthly payments. I think it would be a treat to see an rpg finished to reasonable quality... let alone mmorpg... i think it would be nice to see any reasonable multiplayer game... so far i havent come across one.

uk.geocities.com/maniacimagine check it out. ill soon be formally opening it.
Soyuz
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 00:11
That's a very good point Rapscallion, not only have you got to programme the thing but who's going to fork out the cash to host a game that could be gobbling up tens or hundreds of MB bandwidth per hour?

What's that, something like £1500 a month?
hatekilldestroy
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 00:44
i'm not really a noob i've been using DB for two years I just havn't got pro yet.
hatekilldestroy
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 00:49
As far as the money is concerned, I have a few friends in higher places I would say, but I have to get some kind of tech demo done for the sinlge player mode before I get any funding....shouldn't be too hard.
SoulMan
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 18:28
Yeah, even though I am quite good a programming in C++, it's taking me some time to program in Dark Basic Pro.
Reasons being.
I work full time.
I go to school.
I don't want to follow the path of everyone else.
The first game I am working on now is a small RPG. Remember those RPG's where you had a semi 1st person view and you moved on space the screen would change?
That is the type of game I am making first.
I think it will be a lot of fun.
Hopefully I can complete by the end of summer, but with all the work I have to do that might be impossible.
Maybe beginning fall I will have it done.
Who knows.
SoulMan

I am my own and own my am I
aprilfan
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Posted: 13th Jun 2003 06:44
Somewhere there is a programmer with the potential to code the MMORPG, someone who can stand up to the discouraging veiws of DBPRO Elite, who can stop them and bring about an end to the insane posts and show the newbies there is hope. And I think that someone is you, turns to hatekilldestroy.

The Great Schism.- The Earths reaction to Heavons invasion.
hatekilldestroy
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 03:34
haha hopefully
MikeS
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Posted: 14th Jun 2003 06:48
Anjin San you've reappeared, you've gotten a ton of posts in the 3d sections.

Anyway, hatekilldestroy do you have a webpage(or plan on getting one)so we can check your updates and or ideas on this mmorpg?

Currently setting up website-so no more little updates here.
Progress-First page done,and learning how to use it.
misc.-working with the wonderful people of wizards duel.
aprilfan
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Posted: 15th Jun 2003 03:02
ah thank you, yellow! I was just about to check that!

The Great Schism.- The Earths reaction to Heavons invasion.
Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 03:15
several of us dbpro programmers are working on MMORPGs i dont know how the rest of them do it but mine is all in DBPro if you want to do it you'll probly want to use a setup like Phantasy Star Online with chat and then you go into the game but its true MMORPG is not for a new DBPro programmer it takes time and money money money for a good one.

Artifact Basic-5%
Epic Crossings RPG-25%

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