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Program Announcements / A Top Gear test track simulator .. need feedback

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 10th Nov 2007 00:24
ha! neat. well done that virtual nomad.

david L.
Muddleglum
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 11:38
just a note to say that the prog. will now import replays from another computer.
It was thought best to change at the same time to a specific file tag for purposes of searching files .. annoying for old file tags, but better sooner rather than later.
Old file tags can be manually changed if required to recognise and import. Notes on site download page.

The brake lights now work .. with corrected rear end/lights texture.

Am still considering whether anything can be done about better grass texture / effect .

cheers .. David L.
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 17:53
You could have a transparent image of the track (just the tarmac) on top of a repeating image of grass. (Talking inches here.) Wouldn't look so bad and may give it a bit more depth alongside the illusion of a really good texture.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 15th Nov 2007 11:02
loving the brake lights, muddleglum, and the other additions. you have now achieved Rock Star status, in my book

i'm afraid to offer more of my wish list re: Top Gear Sim because, well, you actually add them, and quickly. i imagine you don't sleep much as a result, and i'd hate to contribute to that. hehe.

suffice to say "very nice!", and that projects like this are an inspiration. much thanks for that.

Virtual Nomad
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Stig Design Stig Magne
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Posted: 15th Nov 2007 12:29
nice looking how did you programmed the car engine when you press the UppKey or DownKey
plees tell me to my e-mail
look at my wip Bopard (OldRacer)

Stig Design (Free Games,Sources,Textures,Photo`s)
Lisence Free at http://dashboard.filefront.com/StigDesign/
Muddleglum
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 04:14 Edited at: 20th Nov 2007 00:40
Back again.
Have uploaded a version with ghosted plains over the grass areas to provide a slightly more grassy texture effect.
Still along way to go to full grass. Tests with hundreds of grass 'tufts' were effective if concentrated but not possible to use widely.
Interesting thing. even my low end computer has more speed than thought. It turned out I had left the collison ON .. for everything!
speed increased by a third when reduced to just the few collions used . whoops.
At least it means that full collision should be possible if i ever attempt a full 3d object track.


Stig Design ..what were you wanting? the program just adds to the power variable ( edit .. up to the set maximum) as long as the key is down, takes it away when the key is lifted. Pretty common I imagine.

This doesn't translate directly to speed of the car however, as the speed is limited by the increase with speed of the rolling resistance and the air drag ( which squares with the speed.. and seems to be the chief limiter)

something like that? or were you after a full accurate power train with torque changing through the gears etc? Hmm ... would be nice .. but note the torque curve for a real 'skyline' , for example, is actually in the overall curve, just a smoothly tapering curve. ( only slight bumps for the seprate gears.)

Anyway.. the original theory is there on the web page if you wamt it..


cheers.. david L.
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 19:25
You could use a small, concentrated area of grass tufts and make it repeat, shifting grass tufts behind the camera in front as it moves.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Muddleglum
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 00:59
NeX .. yes that's what i was thinking to do. Still took a lot of tufts though .. And for aerial views.. maybe omit altogether??

Actually it was more complicated that this. When the grass tuft was fine and detailed .. as it would be when scaled to reality, the result was a 'twinkly/ wavy ' rather ridiculous looking effect.

with large grass tufts and close up, you can get a very convincing effect, but thats not what i needed.
Its the mid way thats the problem.

I noticed the playstation car games use a basic flat texture effect for grass, and only rarely a quite long grass in a few scattered places.
One of them has really odd strands of long grass just sticking up in the fields. not convincing at all. Needs a lot or none at all maybe.

can only try a few things.

I might get lucky. ... later ..... ..

david l.
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 21:29
Hehe, I just playd this, and got lost...


Sudoku arts, the rabi and Nancy DrewG
Muddleglum
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Posted: 29th Nov 2007 11:47
Another note .. latest version has been given a .. er .. " grass spotty overlay" which from the drivers view at least, gives a moderate impression of grass. Tried a lot of variations but this is about as good as i can get it with DBC.
Odd other graphiscs changed as well.

cheers David L.

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Muddleglum
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Posted: 29th Nov 2007 11:50
Oh yes, turned out to be easiest and fastest (and better resolution possible) by using a matrix. Quite surprising.
Also could use matrix normals to adjust lightness of the spots.


david L.
Raven
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Posted: 30th Nov 2007 01:34
Quote: "Hehe, I just playd this, and got lost..."


The track needs more detail, and markings.
Looks like Muddlegum used the sat-pic from virtualearth or such.

The car is also ridiculously high-powered or the physics sim is a tad off, as I got 1.23 quite consistantly without spinning or understeering in conditions where I should've.

The controls are quite irritating as well, I mean either full keyboard and/or full joystick/gamepad; but a combo of both is just annoying and pointless.

Quote: "I noticed the playstation car games use a basic flat texture effect for grass, and only rarely a quite long grass in a few scattered places.
One of them has really odd strands of long grass just sticking up in the fields. not convincing at all. Needs a lot or none at all maybe. "


Best cheap grass effect is a number of flat planes that are layered.

If you have about 3-4 that then wave around, it gives quite a nice effect; but make sure that they match below or even better still keeping with below take pixels away from the top layers.

As long as it's short enough it works very well, but longer looks extremely fake. Give you never get out of the car it'll work nicely.

The road could also do with something similar for specular mapping, you can alpha the object in DB 1.2 iirc (one of the new features) so you can base the specular on the lighting and alpha it accordingly; will give it a sense of depth without really having any.. same goes for shifting it slightly to the light position from eye position (faked bump mapping)

Mobiius
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Posted: 1st Dec 2007 03:00
I like this a lot! Could be playing this on and off for ages! I'd love to port this to DBPro with shaders and higher detail textures and objects. And different cars!

3700+ Athlon 64 - Geforce 7600 GS - 2GbDDR2 RAM - 40Gb Hdd (In this pc) - Windows Vista Ultimate (x86)
Muddleglum
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2007 04:47
Glad to hear your enthusiasm mobiius . I have to agree that DB pro could do a better job .
Before starting this thread i was fairly happy about the amateur appearance of the sim, but its dawned on me that everyone else is used to a higher standard.
I'm feeling the pressure ...


Thanks for those comments Raven. ... especially reminding me about the grass trick.
I had seen a good example with acres of waving grass, but when tried it I could only do low res and it looked really bad.
After your comment I tried again with higher res.using matrices and its much better ... may get away with only two layers. Its quite a delicate final balance of colour and lightness.
I might make another attempt at billboarded plains too.

If you were getting 1.23 on the standard liana , then the physics will be much more than a tad out !!
Which indicates the frame rate limiter is not working as hoped on other computers. Bit embassing if so.
Or was that for the max 4wd version? .. that time would be about right. It is ridiculously high powered. and the light weight and downforce make it grip and drive differently .

Track detail ? ... Did you mean track surface high res, and varied more? ideal yes, but space again. Or do you mean just the corner arrow >>>. boards, and markers?
The track markings are essentially there, though they may have to stay low res.
( BTW You can't get track marking from any satellite photos I have seen. They seem to be quite old shots .. )

er ... The controls can be all keyboard if you set that option.
Flexiblity seemed a good idea.
I don't actually see it as a problem to use the joystick with the keyboard.. Nearly always use it that way myself. Flight sims with throttle on keyboard seem common.
Also the joystick throttle doesn't seem to be right ( to me) for driving action ...
sorry . .. shrugs ..

Roads.
Yes, I like the idea of specular on the roads. I expect it would give more 'life' to it. Even on the current single plains it helps a little, but its off at the moment because of the cheap corner plains, it is a bit odd to have the green glowing light as well!

Can't say that my version of DB 1.2 has any proper alpha blending?? ( i wish ) but I imagine a light ghosted plain, could be adjusted with the new light settings to alter the apparent effect. ... if thats what you meant.

You have made me wonder about redoing the corner plains, with shaped 3d objects. It may not be as difficult as I thought. A sunday project.

hey . .. yes! it works, only 2k objects needed, and it should be much better finally with grass to the edge and some specular. But is is going to take a lot of fiddling between two different modellers and double checking fit etc. maybe next week.

cheers david L
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2007 19:40
2000 objects? Yer wot?


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2007 23:21 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2007 23:24
well, since you've still got your head under the hood (pun intended ), i'll add an item from my wish list:

SKID MARKS!

i'm guessing this feature won't be so difficult to add; i'm imagining monitoring the friction and slide (which already seems to be there and causing the tire screeches) so why not lay down some rubber while you're at it?

with that, i'd suggest a very slow decay rate on them (if any) so users can track their driving lines from lap to lap. in fact, you may want to place some initial marks on the track from the get-go to assist those who are having trouble negotiating the course (namely, where to turn). ie, additional landmarks. and, you may want this to be an option that can be turned off and on since it could prove to be a performance hit, depending on how you go about implementing the feature.

(ok, ok... you might as well show wheel marks on the grass if you should get off course, too )

Virtual Nomad
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Muddleglum
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Posted: 4th Dec 2007 02:53
heh.. sorry Nex, .. size of shaped plain objects is about 2k .. can handle that.

virtual nomad . got your very kind offer. Thanks. have to think about a proper web site (and $$ ) before I can add much more.

When you said earlier about adding more stuff the guess that crossed my mind was ... " tyre marks. " .

hmm.. sudden idea pops into head of using the replay data to place something ahead of car to show track line..

I'll have to see what space and power is left after the latest changes get done.

need a break . .. cheers.
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 4th Dec 2007 20:22
Tire marks ARE hard to add without fast vertex manipulation, which last time I checked Classic was missing. Even then, it's hard to make run quickly. Just a little smoke would probably work a bit better.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Muddleglum
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Posted: 14th Dec 2007 01:43
A progress report that might be of interest to some.
Just thinking out loud.

Shaped corner plains turned out to very easy and quick, and a touch of simple specular was added to track segments. Grass double layer is better, though still not as good as desired..
Since people kept asking I have added corner arrows and distance numbers wherever there has been such marks on the real track ( they changed them , and their colour, from time to time)
I don't like them much as the rendering of the texture detail is very bad until close up. Mimapping ON, is actually worse because it cannot have its switching distance set .. .. oh well,

HOWEVER .. I have not uploaded that version yet because of wanting a better track surface.
Partly it is the specular implementation in classic. Evidently direct x has two methods and it is common to use the faster one , which, quote>> " instructs the system to act as though the viewpoint is infinitely distant on the z-axis."

which results in this...> Imagine a road running away into the distance directly towards the sun. Only the track segments that are at the correct distance to reflect light into the camera should be fully lit by specular effect.
For classic DB this is not so. all the plains have equal light. To get an ideal effect one would have to have a distance check and reset the individual specular values. I can't see any quick way to do this yet. Maybe the collision dll?


The addtitive blending ( light ghosting) of plains seems to be useable for specular 'reflections', -- but you must set the diffuse and ambient lighting to zero or its visible all the time.
However , the z axis viewpoint thing mentioned above, means the effect is rather abrupt and not exactly subtle. Actually, it looks a bit .. odd..

And there is a requirement for a masked, sharp, specular image or else it blots out the track below it. This makes the definition pretty gross and unrealistic.
BTW, judging from the ps2 GT games and photos of light on real roads, the aim is to have the dark /shadowed detail of the track remain dark and only the more level and smooth surface have a 'sheen' , spreading and not just getting lighter with angle to light .. augh..
if one had true alpha blending it might be lot easier!

As for tyre marks !! yes well. later.. maybe

I can only keep trying.

One good thing. ... I had no idea in my long absence from DB that .jpg's could now be handled . And that though DB won't load the texture for an object that is a .jpg , you can load it seperately and apply. It means I have space to redraw the track corners at about 4 times resolution. the track lines actually look like lines! However it will be a long job to redo them properly.
Especially as it is giving me lot of trouble how to improve the surface texture at the same time. I have found and photographed and artifically made several version of asphalt track, but it is not apparently a matter of just getting a good original.. You can blend images , or give it 3d treament in paint shop and it looks fantastic.,, .. then you place it it in the game and it is totally out of place .. out of scale ,. and just .. gross.
I am heading towards just a hand crafted subtle 'overall effect' instead .. here's hoping ...

cheers all .. David L.
Muddleglum
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Posted: 31st Jan 2008 23:29
Just a note.
finally done despite xmas time wasting.

The latest download 1.4 , now has the higher res. track with shaped , flat corner objects.
Specular lighting is just a simple even effect on track objects.
No texture method of lighting that I could come up with ( classic db ) looked anything other than ... gross.

The corner textures were huge. 2048p in one case.
Since classic reduces to 512p ( so it says) I expected there would be no advantage in such large size, but the curves did look better in fact .
It meant though that the bmps had to be changed to jpgs to fit on the site, and this gave bleeding/blurring of colour.
All in all, it was a very marginal advance. sigh.
Rather than 'live' tyre marks I have drawn permanent marks through the corners .
( Had the use of a graphics tablet.. they are really great for some things.)

Trackside markings have been added in just about every position that they ever appeared. Mostly because some users have commented.
I still think the track, being a figure of 8 , requires learning whether there are signs or not .
I couldn't set mip mapping on the track signs as they changed at the wrong distance and were unreadable, so they are a bit flickery.
Used a lighter black/grey to reduce the effect.

Oh yes, the grass is slightly different but not to much advantage.


Regards all. david L.

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