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FPSC Classic Product Chat / A.I. stand around - only two can tango.

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fallen one
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 07:40
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Latest fpsc and dx patch version.

Stick 5 characters in a room, no waypoints, run game.
2 nearest to you are doing something, the rest are either frozen or in a spasm, move around a bit, try tempting the guys stood around to do something, brazenly walk up to them, first 2 stop and the new nearest are now doing something, the characters that was moving are now frozen and look completely dopy, the rest are just stood there doing nothing.
ocasionaly you get a few doing something, but more times not.

Any way round this, any solution,or is this as good as it gets.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Storm 6000
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 12:52
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look in nikkydudes guide on spawning entitys on the fly

Thanks
Adam
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fallen one
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Posted: 26th Oct 2007 15:57 Edited at: 26th Oct 2007 21:24
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I didnt have 5 here, 5 some place else, 5 some other place, a box room, 5 people thats it the full map.

Quote: "look in nikkydudes guide on spawning entitys on the fly"


Dont you mean

Umans - Load and Unload Entities on the Fly - Files
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=73014&b=23

And loading decoration entities isnt going to do anything about it,
Whats the deal here, is this it, everyone just has 2 enemies, that it.
Im going to have to check the dx10 videos, make sure its not the same thing, 50 enemies, but 48 are stood frozen like idiots.
fpsc, the fpsc creator, but only with 2 enemies

Still silence, so I take it that anyone that makes a game has only two characters doing an action at once, is this correct?

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Inspire
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Posted: 27th Oct 2007 01:48
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The highest I've gotten working is five without killing my framerate, but that might be because I'm using some really large scripts.

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Airslide
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Posted: 27th Oct 2007 02:16
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Set "Always Active" (Or "Always On", don't remember, haven't used it in awhile) to true and it should work with all of them. Some good scripts should be in order however if you don't want to lag things up like crazy.


Vote today and play the games!
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GlooStik
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Posted: 27th Oct 2007 02:18
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I get this same problem.
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fallen one
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Posted: 27th Oct 2007 02:53 Edited at: 27th Oct 2007 03:23
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Quote: "The highest I've gotten working is five without killing my framerate, but that might be because I'm using some really large scripts."


With the new patch fps and dx latest, it was OK on frames, they just stand about doing nothing or twitching with 2 only working, frames was OK, took a hit at around 8, after that it ran like sludge, its odd that, perhaps its because its basic and running 10 scripts is inefficient, I dont think Ive ever come across an engine that runs so slow just because its got a few characters on screen ?

Quote: "Set "Always Active" "


left clicked on the character, see its stats, only thing that says
Always Active is under physics, we have physics on? and under it, Always Active?

Is this what you mean, I did that, and just tested one zombie type, they all was moving and doing the deal for me, if it wasnt that, well it seems that does it, and if it is that, then that OK.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Plystire
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Posted: 27th Oct 2007 09:34
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Yes, that's the Always Active that he is referring to... I wouldn't suggest this solution for a larger level with a greater number of enemies, though.


The one and only,
~PlystirE~

Dammit, Jim! I'm a programmer not a graphic designer!!!

FPSC Scripting Tutorials - http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=116527&b=23
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Snipesoul
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Posted: 27th Oct 2007 13:17
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...And this is why I'd rather spawn characters by trigger zones...
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TZap
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Posted: 27th Oct 2007 13:40
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Spawn characters using triggers only when needed. Give each character a different main and shoot script from other characters active nearby. Give them 360 vision and set always active to yes. Try and only have at the most, 4 active nearby at the same time. Maybe only allow level progression when the nearby enemy have been destroyed. I use the technique of opening a door when the enemy have been destroyed to allow progession.
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Thraxas
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Posted: 27th Oct 2007 23:12
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On my desktop PC I can have up to 7 enemies active in a room at one time but when I test that same game on my laptop only 2 of the enemies will be active at any one time...

[center]
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uman
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 13:02
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A very important issue gentlemen.

One of the two which keeps FPSC on my hard disk doing nothing.

You cant make a game in FPSC which requires more than a handful of Characters per level as far as I am aware, so a City (unless almost deserted) or a building with a lot of people in it is out of the question.

I was not sure until now, how the new latest versions were handling this issue but from these posts It seems there is no improvement in FPSC in the most important area of in game Characters at least in the area of numbers of them and the serious adverse impact they have on other entities and overall gameplay.

X10 well you will not know if that is any better until someone wants to put it under pressure and push it to its limits by developing real game levels with it that have real gameplay scenarios running in complex levels.



"There are those who said this day would never come - What have they to say Now?"
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TZap
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 13:25
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See my previous post. I have 16 characters so far in my level. The way I have designed the level is to have triggers spawn enemy when needed. Doors open (or a key appears) when you kill a certain number of enemy in a section thus allowing level progression. There can only ever be, at the most, 4 active at a time (not tried 5 yet). No problems with enemy ai so far. I spawn the enemy in a way so you do not see the actual appearance of the character (spawn round a corner or a room you are about to enter for example.

Doing it this way, it seems like there are a lot of enemy in the level.

Hope this helps!
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uman
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 13:35 Edited at: 28th Oct 2007 13:36
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Sorry for any misunderstanding. I refer to the number of characters in view and active at any one time in my references.


It is very doubtful that the always active flag has any influence at all on characters. The always active flag does not work with respect to turning off their AI.

What causes characters and other entities to misbehave when numbers of them are active in a given area or in view is a very complex subject by and large beyond the scope of, or influence of FPSC end users to affect.

Im otta this one said my bit.


"There are those who said this day would never come - What have they to say Now?"
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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 15:03
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Just copy and paste scripts. You can have 8 characters in a room, using 8 copied scripts, such as pace and shoot.

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xplosys
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 16:19
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Quote: "On my desktop PC I can have up to 7 enemies active in a room at one time but when I test that same game on my laptop only 2 of the enemies will be active at any one time..."


I think Thraxas is on to something here, as well as uman who has extensive experience with larger levels and character response. The number of characters you can have active is certainly not set by any method, setting or adjustment, but is more a hit and miss thing which depends on the computer you're using at the time, the size and configuration of the level, and certainly a boat load more of variables.

These are the issues we work around and hope are better/fixed in X10. For now, all my work is practice and learning.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 16:42
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If you do what I said, you can have 8 characters, with no lag in a single room.

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xplosys
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 16:45
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Quote: "If you do what I said, you can have 8 characters, with no lag in a single room."


I guess if your game consists of a single room, then that is the answer.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 17:39
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I've tested it xplosys, I had 8 in one room and 8 in another, all of the characters worked.

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fallen one
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 19:15
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You can get them to work, but frames go right down with any number, at 8 you are starting to push it on a mid range PC. At best I think 6 to get any decent frames.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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xplosys
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 19:20
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I understand. I tested 25 in one room and they all responded. The fact still remains that different computers (as evidenced above) will handle the entities differently, and the size of the level and other known and unknown factors will change the number of responding characters as you build the game. It's a toss up, and what works for you may or may not work for others.

Pretty much the same thing happens with AI execution of a simple script. One person creates an intelligent AI script that works well in his game situation, but when he distributes it, another person finds the AI to be stupid and non responsive in his game.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

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FredP
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 21:54
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I have noticed (I am using v1.07 BTW in case anyone is interested) that placing enemies into a level severely lowers framerate for me.
I am aware that TGC is addressing the AI issue.
Another option is to customize your enemies...remove animations that the enemy does not require for that situation.As you can imagine this can be very time consuming.

Please have mercy and use the search function.
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Luke314pi
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Posted: 28th Oct 2007 23:23
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In order to keep the best playability across a wide range of computers, I try to keep only 5-6 enemies per level, and never more than two at a time. It is an unfortunate limitation.

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Johan_D
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 00:08
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Quote: "
In order to keep the best playability across a wide range of computers, I try to keep only 5-6 enemies per level, and never more than two at a time. It is an unfortunate limitation.
"


Hmm, if that is true, then it isnt a shooter then?

Higgins, do you tell that with 8 different scripts there is less lag?

A little less conversation, and a little more action please!
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Johan_D
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 00:13
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Quote: "
In order to keep the best playability across a wide range of computers, I try to keep only 5-6 enemies per level, and never more than two at a time. It is an unfortunate limitation.
"


Hmm, if that is true, then it isnt a shooter then?

Higgins, do you tell that with 8 different scripts there is less lag?

A little less conversation, and a little more action please!
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fallen one
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 00:20
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Quote: " I try to keep only 5-6 enemies per level, and never more than two at a time"


5-6 for the whole level, blooming heck, thats not much of a fps, fpsc its in the title of what it should do, should be fpsc, but only 5 enemies per level and only 2 at a time, didnt see that on the box.

What about if you spawn them, can you still only get 5 per level.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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xplosys
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 01:31
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Funny thing about spawing enemies.... in a way it seems to be better but in another it's not. When you set enemies to spawn, the engine is constantly checking the condition to see if it should spawn the enemy, whether it be distance, or time, or whatever. When you set enemies in the level normally with a proper script (state remains 0 until a condition is met) the engine is constantly checking the condition to see if the enemy should begin processing the remainder if the script. It's a trade off who's only benefit seems to be the actual rendering of the ememy when you use spawning.

I can't imagine there would be a very big difference or saving of FPS by not rendering a few enemies, especially those off in a distance, but in any case there could be a minor difference if a larger number of enemies are used. I'm not even sure that the enemies are not rendered, since their shadows seem to be visible even though they are not.

Anyway, as for 5 or 6 per level, I'd have to agree. We just have to be inventive and hop that X10 is better. LOL

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 01:39
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Quote: "We just have to be inventive and hop that X10 is better. LOL"


x10 can already have 50 enemies in 1 room.

It was posted by Rickv....and was stickied.

Cheers,
Cheese Cake.


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uman
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 01:58 Edited at: 29th Oct 2007 02:05
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Yes you can spawn entities and have many per level.

AI is the biggest problem by far. Many enties even if dynamic have little influence - The more complex the AI the greater the burden. Pathfinding and many other behaviours can become badly affected and Characters with a high AI burden can adversley affect may other dynamic entities. Lifts in particualr can be badly affected and are a particular problem when the AI burden incereases dramatically. As the AI burden increases lifts will slow down and eventually grind to a halt completely. The engine just does not have enough allocated time to share the burden of the AI across all dynamic entities. And the time is limited.

If you have large levels full of complexity and Characters with large AI scripts which control many behaviours perhaps written especially for your game scenarios which you may need if you want them to have complex behaviours the default scripts to not provide for you will not be able to get away with many Characters to view and active at any one time.

Kill off the Characters (destroy them) and your FPS will return.

If you have very large complex AI scripts and highly detailed large levels as I do I am afraid you will be very limited to the number of Characters you will get in any one single to view environment.

As far as I can tell this situation itself has not improved Scince V1 and has deteriorated with the latest versions of the engine at least for me.

Of course the engine has seen many valuable and welcome improvements of late, however to make a reasonable game I believe one needs a reasonable variety of Characters with a reasonable variety of behaviours and a reasonable number in view at any one time.

It has been said that the situation regarding AI in FPSC may be improved in time and we all would welcome that I am sure no matter what the current level of game making we are involved in. Limitations are just that. They limit the gamemaking capabilities users have in utilising the software in their game making endeavours and hold back the number and quality of games made with it.

X10 may be another matter. In truth it is not yet a reality in the end users hand so we do not know how it will perform in the game makers environment which is very different from any kind of testing develoment.



"There are those who said this day would never come - What have they to say Now?"
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fallen one
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 02:19
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I just did a check on those dx10 vids to check characters are doing something, yes they are, but the thing is, its a box room, and the system to run it is fast, so we really cant tell how it will handle a proper level at all. Seems that dx10 is what dx9 should of been, I mean, you cant really have a fps game with 5 enemies total. What kind of game are you going to make with that. Especialy as I should image a lot of users will make Doom 1/2 Quake 1 type games. Well what fps game can you make with 5 enemies period.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 02:30 Edited at: 29th Oct 2007 02:33
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I did some testings....


I placed 12 characters in 1 room. (frame-rate was good at 33)
All custom....(low-poly meshes)
In total....9 of them used the:
Surgeon-biped...(MP4) 6 enemies
Classic zombie-biped..(Bond1's....dont know what pack?!?) 3 enemies
Stock-biped...with strafe set as AI.

Most of them didnt do anything...
and even sometimes they all were just standing there and doing nothing.

If they did some action, it was basically 4 of the 12.
And if i was lucky it was 5...nothing more....and maybe less.


Cheers,
Cheese Cake.


---EDIT---
Nevermind....i changed their settings:
Allways active - from no to yes...

And all the 12 responded like they had to...(without copying any scripts)

If someone wants to see it in action...i can make a vid


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game lover
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 02:53 Edited at: 29th Oct 2007 02:54
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please do make a video Cheese Cake.

We all want to be awesome, but does awesome want to be us?
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SamHH
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 03:05
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Fpsc can handle a ton of characters in one room fine, I have put 20 in and the frame rate didn't go down at all.


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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 03:13
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i want to game.
It wasnt meant for frame-rate....
It was meant for if they actually did anything...

I think that the most people dont have any issues with the framerate.


game lover.
I'll see what i can do.


Cheers,
Cheese Cake.


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SamHH
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 03:14
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All of mine reacted...


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fallen one
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 03:38
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Quote: "Fpsc can handle a ton of characters in one room fine, I have put 20 in and the frame rate didn't go down at all"


yes and I bet your running a very fast computer.

Quote: "I think that the most people dont have any issues with the framerate."


They sure do have issues with frame rate. put over I dont know 6/7, perhaps less, and it runs very slow.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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SamHH
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 03:59
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Quote: "yes and I bet your running a very fast computer."

Not a compared to the ones people are using for X10. Specs Amd anthlon X2 64 geforce 7900 4 gigs of ram. (the ram doesn't make that much difference)


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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 04:11
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Than i guess its because of the characters....
Does anyone know what the polycount is from the stock characters?
I assume you are using stock characters than?
Or MP4/MP2/MP1?

Anyway does anyone know what the avarage polycount is between them?

Since my characters are around the:
700 - 1000 poly's....


Cheers,
Cheese Cake.


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SamHH
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 04:18
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The US airborne model is 1828. And i was using characters all of which were more than 1200 polys.


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fallen one
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 04:19
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The polycounts on the characters is nothing, they are only like 2000 polies, ut4k which is what, 3 years old game, had characters 3 to 4k, its not the polys forget that totally, go post that ar DevMaster.net on the entry on fpsc, tell the game runs slow becuase the characters have 2k polys and youve got 10 on screen, see the explosion that will cause

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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FredP
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 04:20
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Don't forget the hundreds of frames of animations.While this gives us the ability to use an FPSC character for just about anything is offset by the large amount of frames of animations.What (if anything) Lee and co. can do about these problems remains to be seen.

Please have mercy and use the search function.
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fallen one
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 04:23 Edited at: 29th Oct 2007 04:29
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Quote: "Specs Amd anthlon X2 64 geforce 7900 4 gigs of ram. "


well I have 2.6 CPU gforce 6 series GC, ram cant remember but its under 1 gig for sure. So Id say I have a mid range PC, you have a modern PC, I have no trouble playing Quake 4 at all, I run the Sauerbraten engine with masses of stuff in it, massive levels and major amounts of monsters on screen, full shaders and bloom, no slow down at all.

Quote: "Don't forget the hundreds of frames of animations."


From what I remember on animation, 2 ways, one is it has stored each mesh and plays each mesh on every frame, and the other skeleton animation it has the animation stored as bones, and so has less stored and less file size, I think its called vertex animation and skeleton or bone animation, I may have these terms wrong.

vertex animation was like unreal, unreal tournement, then they used bones for ut3k that came out 5 years ago. So if its vertex animation thats an old way of doing stuff.

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 04:52 Edited at: 29th Oct 2007 04:53
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Quote: "The polycounts on the characters is nothing, they are only like 2000 polies, ut4k which is what, 3 years old game, had characters 3 to 4k, its not the polys forget that totally"


I think it is the polycount....
Since Ut4 can also handle lots of more characters...uses completely different shaders...and so on.
Basically its nothing compared to FPSC....
So thats why you cant compare each other if it is about poly count.
Or what FPSC or UT can handle or not...
Sorry TGC...but UT will however win.


The polycount is allways something important....
I think if you keep em very very low...than you could easily
go up 2 or 3 characters...
But no.. FPSC....will not handle 20 to 30 characters all in one use...

If you want that, than you have to use triggerzones...
And let a several 5 to 6 characters spawn in 1 room.

Like i said...i tested the game with 12 characters...
FrameRate was 33...and they all tried to kill me...there was nothing wrong.

And i have tested a game, with some stock characters:
3 Conkers...
3 ColonelX...
3 Officer...
And 3 US marine...(12, the same amount of characters as before)

All set to always active - yes.
Used different scripts....maybe 1 or 2 the same.

In the same type of room.
1 lighting, and once with lighting off.


The framerate was low compared to the other: 19 to 22...
But...they all reacted....so that was the only good news about
the stock characters..

Cheers,
Cheese Cake.


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fallen one
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 05:35 Edited at: 29th Oct 2007 05:36
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Quote: "The polycount is allways something important....
I think if you keep em very very low...than you could easily
go up 2 or 3 characters..."


a wireframe scene in UE3

http://www.unrealtechnology.com/html/technology/ue30.shtml

Wireframe reveals memory-efficient content comprising under 500,000 triangles.

2000k models are nothing, that isnt a factor. Well not for every other engine it isnt.

Quote: "Like i said...i tested the game with 12 characters...
FrameRate was 33...and they all tried to kill me...there was nothing wrong."


Quote: "The framerate was low compared to the other: 19 to 22...
But...they all reacted"


So which is it, 33 frames or 19-22

fpsc game KillTV update 22Oct.http://www.avantivita.com/killtv.html
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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 12:16
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2000k is a factor....If the stock characters are just 1600/1800...
And if that causes a lower framerate (about 10!)...
Than i would like to know.....if it isnt the polycount....
Than what is it?!?....

Everybody knows that FPSC isnt the best "engine?!?"
And that it has many bugs etc...and the polycount usage is one of them.
And not just polycounts....also Characters...dynamic...
I tested another thing....i made some custom models...
Made them static, and about the same polycount as the stock characters. (very bad models....it was just about the polycount)

Placed 12 of them in the same size room...1024x1024 textures...
No problem....so polycount isnt everything about characters...
Its just the Character itself...
But i noticed that a lower poly-mesh, is better then a higher one.

Quote: "So which is it, 33 frames or 19-22"

The first test (custom models) was 33 framerate...
The second tests (stock models) was 19 to 22 framerate...
The last test (static models...same polycount as stock ones) was 33 framerate...

Quote: "2000k models are nothing, that isnt a factor. Well not for every other engine it isnt."

Quote: "a wireframe scene in UE3"

Like i said...UT....(no matter what version)...they cant be compared to FPSC.
FPSC uses a whole lot different stuff than any other engine...
And if UT can use characters from 2000 to 3000 with a normal framerate...(also lots of character so not just 5 or 6 but a minimum of 12)
And if FPSC can only use 12(stock/custom...1600/1800)characters with a framerate of 19 to 22....
Than whats the problem?!?

Cause i think its the polycount, that can reduce the framerate.
Tests showed the result.


Cheers,
Cheese Cake.


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Storm 6000
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 12:21
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Quote: "Not a compared to the ones people are using for X10. Specs Amd anthlon X2 64 geforce 7900 4 gigs of ram. (the ram doesn't make that much difference)"


doubt there using a 7900 as they can't even run Dx10 apps, I heard a long time ago that copying the scripts worked well and its always solved any problems i have had

Thanks
Adam
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