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Hello, I was wondering if you could shed some light onto a problem i'm having with my game.

I've been making a mansion for a horror game... I'm having an issue with low fps, serious enough to crash FPSC good. This only happenes in 2 area's, the stairs leading to the basement corridor (these crash FPSC if you run down them), and the basement entrance. When I go down the stairs the polygons on screen go from around 20k to 53K+ and the same with the basement entrance. What I don't understand is why it does this...is it a bug? I thought FPSC only rendered what you could see. At the entrance it only happens if I look toward the door, if I run out backward it's fine but it's when I step on the 2 segments before the door that it drops in preformance, also, the direction I look when it happens has nothing in that area to render, infact it's all behind me. The mansion is fairly big and alot of dynamic objects, but I don't believe this is causing it. I removed every dynamic object, segments, put everything to low, uninstalled and reinstalled... I even removed the whole basement and corridor upto the steps, it still does the same.

I do apologize for the long post...

FPSC V107

AMD Sempron 3100+ 1.8Ghz
1GB PC2700 Kingston
Vista Home Premium
Nvidia 6600GT

Any help is much appreciated!

It is the Serious Lagg Issue you face appears most often in outdoor levels of high complexity but not restricted entirely to those. If you attempt to build levels of high complexity you are likely to encounter it. FPSC likes simple levels. Generally speaking as with many indie engines the less you have in your level the more they like it but not necessarily you or the end game user. It may be a conflict of interest depending on what kind of game and levels you envisage your game to need.

It is a well known, documented and desribed issue here at the forum. Try a search for Lagg or Serious Lagg Issue

The best description I can give you of the cause is :

It is caused by somewhat erronous bsp or FPSC compile of a level? where the compile process generates excessive and high polygon counts which FPSC is incapable of handling at the position of difficulty usually as you have described it in extreme cases where it can cause a complete standstill of FPSC and Windows. It can cause a system hang or crash as FPSC can not recover from it spiraling in a never ending circle trying to recover fps.

You can often exit the situation as you have described by turning around and reversing your steps out of the situation if you are very careful.

These excessive poly counts which FPSC only sees as they are not viewable by the player even in wireframe mode and so as far as the player or game developer are concerned do not exist are nevertheless counted by the engine.

That is the best I can do in describing what you are getting. I am not sure if anyone understands what the cause is exactly or how to correct it. As far as I am aware there is no official statement on the cause of the issue or any possible fix.

Delete your level work or redesign your level and content and try again is the only at least partial fix I am aware of which often may not be very successful.

Combined with additional slowdown in gameplay caused by Character AI and generally high overall polygon counts and other spin off glitches affecting player and Character movement it can pose a serious problem for FPSC developers.

Your mention of the staircase leading to a basement corridor was interesting, as I have had exactly the same issue. My first attempt at building level one of "The Game" was going very well when I decided to create a small basement that the player would have to navigate. The FPS was holding at 33 until I placed the staircase going down below a warehouse. As soon as the player got within 1 or 2 hundred units of the staircase, the FPS dropped dramatically.

The staircase alone, boxed in and sealed, cause the slowdown. It was as if (as uman stated) the engine suddenly began to render an entire new level below the first, unseen and non-existent to the player and game.

Worse still, the damage was un-repairable, and returning the level to it's pre-staircase state made no difference. The slowdown remained in that area, even after the staircase had been removed. Now this was obviously a memory issue, but I found no way to correct it, even after repeatedly restarting the engine and computer.

I also have no idea why this happens but it underscores the need to constantly save levels with a sequential naming system (level_1a, level_1b, etc) so as not to entirely loose your work.

Best.

Ah, i'm glad to know someone else has had the same issue, not in a mean way

I have tried to remake it again, having that failed I made an entirly new layout but smaller, all was going well as usual, then I added some steps going down into a basement... bye bye fps. I do have a few questions though, if anyone could possibly answer.

1. Are the stairs in FPSC a proper mesh to the user, like a wall it count's as a sight block? (sorry I can't explain too well), but to the engine is nothing too special and see's past this? which would render the outside of the level aswell as in?

2. If you put flooring down and look at it from the top does that count as a sight block? but not for underneath? because it seems to happen when the user approaches a way to go below ground level(the layer you started on). If i take the main stairs up everything goes fine.

3. If I was to upload the saved file, aslong as no one steals it, would you possibly take a look at it and tell me if i've done something obvious and not realised?

Thank's alot for your time!

Hey Kaelin, sorry man I wish I had a chance to post sooner.
I hope you havnt deleted your level, either way
Any chance you could send me (via email for private reasons) or post here, a screen shot (ctrl/printscreen) of the level or area with the affected problem.

*it may have alot to do with your layers, something in the opposite corner direction maybe. Or I read some good points about segments that can not be seen to remove them, however Ive also found that you can make the engine stable by doing the opposite.
Im not saying I may be able to help, yet you never know. Good luck.

Gladly, though I cannot tonight, being 2:40am xP i'm a bit tired, I shall upload the images to...somewhere and post tomorrow the links. Sorry about the email, when I sent it livemail removed the images so anyway, take care all and have a nice night!

Here are the link's to the screenshot's I have taken, I hope they help!

Stair's to basement:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii216/darkleon3000/4.jpg

Basement entrance (looking at the exit, going this direction grinds the fps to 0 instantly):
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii216/darkleon3000/3.jpg

Editor view stair's to basement:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii216/darkleon3000/2.jpg

Editor view basement entrance:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii216/darkleon3000/1.jpg

Let me know if you need anything else, sorry I know it's not many photos but it would be easier if fpsc would let me use my mouse instead of centering it

Sorry I removed my post that Kaelin I think is refering to below.

Re-Edited

Sorry it took me awhile to get back, and yes I should have mentioned uman and xplosys are correct.
After various tests a few months back, I found that if you are going to make a level, you need to make it right the first time (paper/pen). The editor has a nasty bug in it (this may have been mentioned) where you can have invisible entitys and segments in your level with out even knowing, unless you scan for them. However removal can be tricky.

I solved this problem one night when I had placed a segment, did something away from my pc, jumped on, selected a different segment or something, and then deleted the segment, to find that I did delete it, however the blue grid was still hightlighted where the segments once was, after moving the viewing area away a bit. Now I may be wrong, yet I think I re-deleted the invisible segment with the same segment or placing it again and removing.

So Im thinking that this could be a small cause (or large) for some fps problems, and a object/model needs to be removed with the same object model etc. And unless you are deleting the whole room to start with a new segment, this overlapping can not be seen. Removal and other factors need to be tested though. And deleting a segment area with entitys placed, may also involve the entitys becoming invisible, you can find these invisbile entitys by searching for un accounted for dots on your level editor.


Anyway, go xplosys way and save, rename, save etc. it will help in the long run if you make big changes to your level and the end result is more lag you can step back.
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Apart from me not knowing if you have incounted what the 2 users above have mentioned. Here is some ideas you could try.


Blue - There is not a complete segment here, missing the back wall.

Red - the segement here is also not joined, I see you have been mixing textures, try using the same texture you want and delete the wall and re-apply should fix it.
*This maybe has something to do with the error uman mentioned above, not sure,
Did you remove/delete any segments or segment walls, before you started to apply different walls from other segments?
Also when you were adding different segments in that area, to get the effect you wanted, did you try many different ones a few times?
Depending on your answers, this is maybe how these lockup areas are caused. Going off what I mentioned above.

Yellow - Personally This looks fine, however i have found long hallways dont really like joining hallways going from the side, if you are leading from a small area into a large. From the looks of the level, going from a large room into a long hallway to another room is fine, yet heading back out it has to produce the large part of the level again.
However to avoid this shorten your hallways and group your rooms on the right with the centre rooms.
Which is how I discovered double L shape rooms, and no longer use.

Purple - At first I would have said remove this all together, however apart from me not really knowing whats in the centre, it lines up with the next level, which I have found to be ok. Yet I would still remove it.

In the end I made a re-creation (unsing ww2 segments) of your corner area, and even adding a extreme amount of entitys, I could not get the same error.
Going on what your pc specs are, it should be ok. I say go what uman said and re-create the level from scratch.

UPDATE:
If you are getting problems in another places of the level, then this can be caused by many things (outer level design not being a good shape, too large, too many corners for example), try to compact the whole level all togther. such as move the room your trying to get to (problem room), into another area of your grid, maybe bring it back a bit and have it more under your main area, and not place anything where you incounted the problem may save the level being re-done.
Long hallways may work, yet can cause problems else where.

Good luck.

As a question, no I get lag in other areas around 2-3 fps, although i've never had a problem in that long hall (maybe the fog help's sort that out). The step's are the same, facing the west (editors view) is the worst, I just ran through my level again and the west wing in the grand hall is also the same, following it round untill I face south. I lag to around 3-5 (facing the same direction as the stairs/store room (which is the otherside of the basement corridor)). Otherwise, if it is this area or corridor remember I did remove it all with no success. But please don't rush yourself not like there's a deadline. Thank's for looking into it though, much appreciated! Take care.

@Kaelin - Just to let you know, I have updated my above post. Good luck.

Hey thank's alot! I just tried fixing all the thing's you pointed out, I also made the hallway shorter and moved the room up (I think that's what was suggested...), believe it or not it's actually worse, I can't get down the stair's at all now. I'll try remaking it in a few minutes but to be honest, the whole game layout has kind of changed, mainly old wooden flooring and stuff like that. Anything anyone could give a few hint's and tip's on? what to avoid doing if possible xP. I'll try saving multiple session's of my work, which does sound like a smart idea Don't worry about the post update, I suppose it help's the forum in ways. If I come across any other problem's, should I post them here? to avoid making multiple...threads?

Thank's a million guy's! I really do appreciate it, if there's anything I can do to repay you let me know! Take care.

Just delete that section and build is some other area of the map, Ive had parts that did this just for no reason, so I deleted them, built some other area, and problem gone, I also wonder if painting levels rather than clicking each square helps, im sure painting the segments in can make them draw twice, which messes things up, Im sure I saw a tutorial bt Lee saying as much, can anyone confirm.

Yes I have tried this, one of the first thing's I did actually, it didn't help, so I just about give up on the map now time to go fatalframe style. The map I will keep for future reference, if anybody want's it let me know maybe you'll have better luck with it.

which one I state 2 things.

Oh sorry, I removed the section and placed it elsewhere. The whole corridor is made seperatly, floors>walls>ceilings. Aswell as trying a whole segment unit, nothing seems to change. I removed the ceiling to the kitchen area which is just about as low as it gets, looked up and with the same ammount of polygons as the stairs and entrance, the fps only dropped to about 7-10. So could it be rendering the whole level? the entrance is strange to me because the whole level is behind the player and is the worst case. But by what Deca has told me, I'm pondering over this hallway thing to a point that, maybe the engine has trouble reloading this in such a short time. Though with the hallway shorter makes things worse.

Just to let you know, I re-created your whole level going off your 4 screens you posted, and I have to say for some reason, it works well. I was getting 32-33fps over the entire level (even those large rooms), however im not sure how big your full level is, please understand that going off your specs, its not easy to make mass levels. Anyway going off your screen map, I later added, about 8 entitys in the far lower room, and then adding a heap over in the left lower and above level rooms. And could not get the same error.

good to see someone else knows.

1st, if you plan to start fresh, make a New map every time, dont bother deleting half to start again, just load up a older save, if you want to keep some area of the map. Also, a method I use when making a new level, after a level, is to close and reload the program.


To try and answer your recent post, yes inside corners (as well as inside curves, from another of my posts) are a slight or major problem, depending on how large of area you have close by or in your level somewhere.
Having a long, medium hallway leading from these areas can produce different results. For those reading, yes pc specs make a difference. Yet if you are getting a drop in fps, I have found it can be caused from one of these areas even if you are on the other side of your map.
An example is the double L shape theory I mentioned, and will try to make a pic or screen to show you what i mean.

Also in relation to you changing the hallway length, and still having problems, may have something to do with my above long post.
What I suggest to try, is make a map of your exact level, square by square.
Select NEW level, and re build the entire level, with the same segment. Say select a WW2 one, low bunker or something. even add the roof, pillars, stairs. and test it, and let me know.


Also, to avoid another area of interest, that may help you in 2 ways (depending) When your designing a level, add an extra segment block behind your staircase placement. 1. will remove the small glitch, located at the above step. And will also prevent enemeys getting locked up on stair cases (depending on script), this also may remove the slight problem with lag, when going down.



I will try to get back here with a screen. Like I said, trial and error. And in future if you have one of these problems (or maybe I should have asked) let us know how big the whole level is, Like x Grid number, and vertical level amount. Your problems may all be caused by your map being too large for your specs. Good luck.

Hmm...sounds like your really going at it, much appreciated! I'll recreate the whole thing from scratch tomorrow, saving multiple sessions of my work. The 4 screenshot's are roughly half the level's size. If you like, I can take a screen shot of all the layer's top to bottom for you, and sorry I'm not sure how to go about finding the grid size.

Also, is it possible to export these maps to Dark Basic? I did some searches but nothing really came up.

Thanks for the information and effort your putting into this, but don't over do it

Hey Kaelin. Thats ok, happy too. Alot of this I have allready been working on before your post..
Really from the 1st post I made I should have asked how big your map was.
There are lots of things that can effect fps. In this case maybe your pc specs. Not alot of big maps are going to work, seen if they are larger than what I first thought.
Of course good level design will also play a part, adding alot of entitys and enemys though can drain your machine over small or large maps, all depends.

Yeah if you can take a screen shot of the layers in your full level, I would like to take a look, whenever you like. Email me the link if easier. Also the best way to count the grid is to use the square's.

Dak Basic Q is best to search around first. My suggestion is that it has probally been asked before.

No problem. Decs.

Well, I did some searching on the Dark Basic thing but I can't find anything so not to worry, unless anyone can suggest anything?