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Geek Culture / how many are we??? ratio user/game is very low

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Ermes
21
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Joined: 27th May 2003
Location: ITALIA
Posted: 18th Jun 2003 23:33
someone know how many users db and dbpro have???
i think near 14000, but it's only estimated.

if every user make at least one game/year, in a year we have near 14000 games.

We already have very few game... circa 300, in 4 years of db.

But we have a lots of announcement, wanderings and small talk about the "incredible" game we're developing

but very few complete the project they start.......

i think there are a very small number of users capable to making good games, the big number can't go over first 100 program lines of their project.

why?? is dbpro difficult to learn?? we need more tutorials??Example and usage dbpro showcase are weird?? girlfriends or wifes can't understand why we're passing all the night on our pc, so they take we out just a moment before to complete our game?
Free Download for a Free World
Mattman
21
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Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 18th Jun 2003 23:36 Edited at: 18th Jun 2003 23:37
I have over 300 lines of my project (i may currently and tempararaly dump it for a RPG for nFinity with Yellow)

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
Mattman
21
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Location: East Lansing
Posted: 18th Jun 2003 23:36 Edited at: 18th Jun 2003 23:37
I have over 350 lines of my project (i may currently and tempararaly dump it for a RPG for nFinity with Yellow)

edit: oops, i thought this was the edit thing but i hit back and changed it. could a mod delete my other post please? sry

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
andrew11
21
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Joined: 23rd Feb 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 00:02 Edited at: 19th Jun 2003 00:03
It's not that I am not capable, I just lose intrest too fast.

I think that theres 6 types of people here

1. spammers - Think that the forum is a joke, well, you get the idea
2. noobs - Nothing wrong with that, we were all noobs once.
3. people who think they are noobs - Never try to get better.
4. average - good at programming, starts alot of projects, gets a few done.
5. Good - good at programming, but get projects done.
6. Masters - best at DB, get projects done.

Most just fall into the "average" category.

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
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Pincho Paxton
21
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 00:03
I think the modelling holds people back the most. Getting everything right for DBPro is a nightmare.
andrew11
21
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Joined: 23rd Feb 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 00:05
Modelling?

I think it's just alot of work to do an entire video game. We are all good at some things and bad at others. We also only get to program in our free time.

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
Click Here!!!
Shadow Robert
22
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 00:07
Quote: "i think near 14000, but it's only estimated."

perhaps worldwide and i don't think there is anywhere close to that many on the forum - probably closer to around 500-1,000

problem is there are actually very very few people working on titles that are actually going to finish production and those which are, are being developed as long term projects rather than quick fixx projects.

A good example is the Retro Competition everyone had around 2months to develop thier titles and there were none that i'd honestly call "outstanding" as what people make thier games out to be.
And alot of people start with a post "oh i'm making the next Quake3 with full bump mapping and shadow mapping and realistic Ai" before they've even written a line. Unfortunately games aren't as simple as just a few commands like some believe - they take alot of work and dedication to get even half decent results, as unlike the Modification community we're not editing an already working engine ... we just using a 3D Programming Interface.
So really our development times although not likely to be close to 2-3years like current full development houses, they are still relatively long for even the simplest of titles.



I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
andrew11
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Location: United States
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 00:20
I think the actual number of registered forum users to date is 3507 (I kept increasing u in the url of the profiles until it gave an error).

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
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Kangaroo2
22
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Joined: 26th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 00:39
hmmm too much time is on some1s hands ....

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes, They got them hoppy legs & twitchy little noses,
And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 00:45
Don't forget that RGT has users that don't use Apollo.
andrew11
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Location: United States
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 00:47
Lol

Actually, I started at 4000, went to 3500, then 3510, then 3550, etc. It only took about 5 minutes.

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
Click Here!!!
the_winch
21
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Joined: 1st Feb 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 01:17
I think most users are more capable, if I was put into a job type environment I would finish games and they would be a lot better.

I get bored,stuck,distracted or write games that are fun to write but not to play.
Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
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Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 02:16
I know, people get into the habit of writing demos and never finishing the things. Personally I spend more time playing around with TPC DLLs than actually writing my game.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
Arrow
21
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Location: United States
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 06:47
Quote: "if every user make at least one game/year, in a year we have near 14000 games."


I must seriously question that logic (and question this guy about the Yorda avitar ). If you're expecting full length games it'll take well more than a year to make. Considering a team of 30 professional game makers take about a year to complete a game, were do you get the idea that one person, alone, that can't devote all there time to the project (school/work), can complete a full length game, even if the quality is of the SNES?

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
indi
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 07:36
Its when u find a bug that takes another 6 steps backwards to get anything to work and a tonne of extra code because something is broken.

Its when your modeller takes up to a year to complete his work.

Its when you changed from classic to pro and waiting for pro to be completely finished.

It depends on the type of person / time allowed and skill.

Yarbles
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Location: Toronto
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 07:45
We are Legion

please visit [href]www.realitytwin.com[/href]
indi
22
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 08:13
Andy Igoe
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 09:30
Nah, most of us can knock up a 'good' game in about a month, but we just dont want too - we want to make an 'awesome' game which will take us ages.

The sad truth is although most of us aspire too 'awesome' games, we fail when we try - and if we took a step back and just wrote 'good' games, we'd get an awful lot more done.

Pneumatic Dryll, about to finish 5th game this year.

Pneumatic Dryll
Damokles
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Location: Belgium
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 09:55
There is maybe another reason :
For myself, I'm creating some programs, I don't publish. I'm maybe new to Darkbasic, but I began programming with a C64 in BASIC (So calculate when I started).
Here, you could ask, why I don't publish them ... Rather good question : At first, most of my things are still in QBASIC or in GWBASIC (or turbopascal, but that's another thing). Second reason, the things I made with DarkBASIC were mostly made to illustrate or to improve my lessons (So it's only something to show explanation of gravity, or eclipses, ...).

"Begin at the beginning, and go on till you come to the end: then stop." - Lewis Carroll
BatVink
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 12:41 Edited at: 19th Jun 2003 12:42
It is very difficult for 1 person to have all the skills it takes to make a good game. You ideally need an author, a technical writer, a coder, a modeller and an animator just for starters. That gets you from 14,000 to 2,800, assuming you only have a bare minimum in a team.

Remove the noobies, and those that decide it's not for them, and you've probably reached 500.

As someone has already said, some people are working on 2 to 3 year projects. That could reduce your figure to say 300, assuming that a reasonable number of teams have reduced your estimated yearly output to one third.

Now take away the people who don't use DB for game writing (that includes me, I demonstrate business concepts with it), shall we take a ball park figure of 150 now?

Suddenly, the figures for the number of games look better than they should be.

Thanks in advance.
All the Best,
StevieVee
Ermes
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Location: ITALIA
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 13:13
i think we can create a "club" for real user of db.
wahat an idea.....

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Andy Igoe
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 19th Jun 2003 15:25
Quote: "You ideally need an author, a technical writer, a coder, a modeller and an animator just for starters"


I strongly disagree. Not to pick argument intentionally but really you don't need all those people to make a good game, seriously.

What does an author do? Plot. Bah. You don't need this for a good game. Any half brained monkee can come up with a plot, and in comparison to most commercial games they'd do a better job too.

What does a technical writer do? Instruction Manual. Bah. You don't need this for a good game, besides it's the job of a publisher anyway, all you have to do is a quick document saying what gadgets do what.

A coder. Yep.

A modeller. It would be more correct to say some form of artist as not all games need be 3D, but yes you need someone artistic in 2 dimensions or 3.

Animator? Only if you go 3D and your modeller/programmer cannot animate. A fair proportion of modellers and programmers can - it's actually harder to find a texture artist, but then if someone can make a mesh and not a texture then they aren't really a modeller - else I could earn a fortune

So out of all that all you really need is a programmer and someone who can draw or model. You also need a musician. You can find plenty on mp3.com or on these forums and if your giving the game away for free most people will happily be a part of a reasonable quality project without charging you, either way music need not delay development - it's all out there and written just waiting for a game to be put in


Let's put this in perspective of Banshee Studios:
1 Full Time Programmer / Animator
1 Full Time Programmer / Modeller
1 Part Time Assistant Programmer / Low Polygon Modeller
1 Part Time Animator
2 Part Time Musicians

Not a technical writer or author in sight, infact if someone came to me with 'this idea' i'd just laugh at them and send them on their way. Anyone into games with a creative personality gets 18 ideas a day.

Banshee have two commercial games under development at any given time. We're on target to complete our first commercial game after 5 weeks of development. Of course when I say complete it's likely to receive some attention at a later date to polish off something or irradicate a bug, but that's inception to completion in 5 weeks and another game well under development in the same timescale.

Now I understand very few of us are full time, but it does highlight that most of the team requests we see just list a whole load of skills and staffing requirements without much consideration.

The reason Banshee are suceeding in achieving our goals is simple, we don't attempt anything we can't do when we start the project. If you need to learn a new trick or technique then you are going to realise a 'better way' mid way through and want to re-write the game.

I do the challenging aspects of the game code first so that I dont get stuck on them later, by doing this I find that the tinkering and learning process becomes the start of the game - although sometimes the learning process results in something unsuable, but i've not wasted a project on it.

Once i've achieved the difficult parts I then step back, design the rest of the game within my current abilities and stick to the design.

It's my opinion that until you finish a game you are'nt a programmer but instead somebody who enjoys to tinker with code - this is fine, but if you want to see the rewards of people playing your games and enjoying them then you have to be a programmer to achieve that and believe me, it's far more rewarding to be a programmer than a tinkerer.

Even though there are a few idiots who'll do nothing but display envy of the fact that you are something they can't be, a programmer.

Pneumatic Dryll
Ermes
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 16:00
PneumaticDryll

- i'm with you with all.

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Ian T
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 20:41
DB/DBP users: Far Too Many To Count
DB/DBP Forum Users: In the thousands
DB/DBP Active Forum Users: In the hundreds
DB/DBP Active Forum Users Working On Games: In the low hundreds
DB/DBP Active Forum Users Who Will Finish Games: In the low tens

There are a lot of people who enjoy the product and make good games but just don't visit the forum you know

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 21:13
Pneu that really depends on what kinda game your developing...
I'm sure if Banshee Studio's ever starts development on a huge story based title suchas a Final Fanstasy RPG.

In actual fact there is no set you need "this'n'this" and you can develop anything, every team works differently and works with each other differently.
In a company like Legend they might benifit from having a specific story/idea designer at Bungie they benifit more from having the entire cast of Artists comming up with the content concept->finish.

In general it all just depends on how the team is capable of interacting with each other... It also depends on the depth of the game, although games like Command & Conquer might not be damaged from a weak story or barely existant one on the other hand a game like Monkey Island requires your story to be flawless and every situation thought of, like if you get stuck in a vault then you can't simply have the tools appear to let you free you need to have a believable way of introducing them.

However this all aside, when all is said and done for development speed you really require a decently sized team of skilled individuals. Although yes Banshee is the highest DarkBASIC Professional Games producer, the games developed aren't exactly close to current games on the market Graphics wise, and they havn't been the most indepth titles.
Not to mention not everyone here has your companies combined experience within the industry that although yes is only on the Shareware circuit that is still far more than most here - so atleast you've had over a decade to understand about howto develop games effectively.

Bnashee Studios is probably a rare thing within DBP, as you have a realtively professional sized team (most small Development/Modification houses have a similar crew of 6-12 people) but you also have the combined experience within the theatre of development. Not to mention you are all dedicated people willing to see a development right up to the end as well as change and adapt titles from an idea to something the public would want to play.

Many users here are teens, who want to create the entire games themselves, they want to create it to the standard they see on thier favourite consoles and they want it to be just as good to play.
Learning DBP along to be able to program enough to get an inch of that dream correct isn't a simple task because most users actually just dive into games development than learning the language.
Not to mention artwork, storylines, formats for what they need (if a DBP one doesn't have what they want they'll just stop rather than try to make an alternative)

well just had to get that off me chest

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
Mentor
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 22:30
I do games for relaxation, I have written 1000`s by now, why don`t you see them?, well, for a start I am to art what whales are to hang gliding , I never code the same thing twice, most are weird little "toys" that would interest...er...well...about...er..well, me actualy , like crossword puzzles I don`t keep em when they are finished, total number of saved games to show for twenty`ish years work..2, (unless I backed some up by mistake) and those are my current projects, a game and a level editor, I just don`t make stuff to show it, I just come here to chat a bit and help noobs, skill level? medium-good, I just have never made anything original I would post on the forum, lots of better stuff out there, I can`t compete with EA or Lionhead Studios, wouldn`t want to

Mentor.

Angeleyes
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Posted: 20th Jun 2003 07:50
Well its not just the graphics or sound FX or music or...whatever...that make a good game. Its also something called "playability".

Space Invaders had it, and so did Pac-Man. Plus Pong and all the other games in that ilk.

But nowadays people love their bells and whistles in a game and that is a reason why DB users fall over...They try too hard to match something that they cannot match by themselves.

Instead they just need to enjoy it and learn from it, and others will enjoy their work too.

As for development, well I do agree. Our commercial game is on target to finish, and its going in to the shops (but hey...I did have a lead in or two ) and its going to take about 9 months to do with a team of 6 plus 10 backup people who are industry professionals who have given their time for free to us.

So yes.....If you want to SELL the program, do it right and be willing to put into it what you want to get out of it.

Ta ta for now
Mary

Ermes
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Location: ITALIA
Posted: 20th Jun 2003 11:46
Like most other users, i'm one man team, and i make game for relaxation... i've make 5 with amiga amos, and now 2 with db.

What i want to say, leaving aside professional develop teams, i would like to see more games, but there is an insane itrest to make deeper and deeper and deepeer game who taking years to develop....

We need a ring with a lot of games, snippet, example, but something of fast and immediate, free to see for everyone.whitout pop-ups or sign-in or log-in.or money to pay for subscription.

WHERE IS THIS HERE??????????????????????????

Free Download for a Free World
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Jun 2003 13:25
DarkBasicPlanet.com (cept no one really uses it)

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason

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