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Work in Progress / SkyCars, final beta testing...

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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 15:30 Edited at: 19th Jun 2003 15:30
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Hello again folks. This is one of the last beta releases, if not the last beta, of SkyCars. Practically everything I hoped to accomplish is here. I just need your help to test this for me, give any last bug reports and suggestions, and tell me how the game performs on your systems (remembering to inform me of with your system's stats).

Please give this a fair play. I've implemented practically every piece of advice I've been given so far and it's really paid off!


Get the game at http://www.galaxyware.tk. Feel free to use the forums there if you'd like.


Screen shots of the latest version:





Thank you in advance!


http://www.galaxyware.tk
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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 17:20
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Its an excellent game, but a few little issues

1. The framerate is very low on some levels, such as the first "Where Stars are Born" track, I have a Radeon 9700 Pro / 1.6Ghz P4, so if it happens to me, it will kill other people's machines.

2. Explosions look a little odd because the outer spirals suddenly disappear, if they are ghosted objects then you should use FADE OBJECT to have them disappear smoothly.

3. There is a need for a loading screen of some sort. When you select one of the larger tracks, there is quite a delay loading everything, and no indication that loading is taking place. A simple loading message (preferably with a progress bar) in the middle of the screen would suffice.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
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Mattman
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 20:35
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way 2 fast, even when speed meter is half-full

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 20:55
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its a good game, nicely polished, but i found it so annoying grrrr i didn't manage to complete any of the first three levels(leaving earth) its addictive but theres only so many times you can explode after hitting a wall, maybe you could just stop dead or it depends on the speed that you are travelling at???
loading screens would be cool, i noticed a little bit of lag when it restarted a level on my:

pentium 4 1.6 ghz
256mb ram
geforce 2 ti

but nothing drastic, i'm curious as to how you made the levels, i had a look at them in notepad and while they did seem to have some kind of pattern i didn't understand it.
so basically a good addictive game that i can't complete

hi guys
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 21:45
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A few things, only minor, but they may not be fixable...
- There is a jerk when the music starts again, but I think that is just DB.
- There is slowdown when you pass through a power up ring, when it takes up most of the screen.
- The game slows down on the start screen, with the ship rotating, once you have played a level and then quit onto the menu again.

cuRant PRogekt: a three-de map editer
Why the hell'd you ask me for crying out loud!?!
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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 21:52
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"way 2 fast, even when speed meter is half-full"

The game IS meant to be like that, I don't know if you have played the original but they are similar.

That is another thing, in the original there was an even difficulty curve as you progressed, from very easy to insanely hard. Here it starts on hard and goes up to insane.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 20th Jun 2003 02:03
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Ok, I'm sorting your suggestions so that I may deal with them appropriately. Thanks a lot for the input; I hope to have a new version completed soon that addresses these issues:


1) Slow levels, especially "Where Stars are Born" - I'm not sure exactly what I can do to fix this. If I could compile in DBP, which I don't have, it would be a lot smoother. Maybe I can take out some extraneous blocks...

2) Fading out the explosion rings - I don't think I can fade them out, as this is DB and doesn't fade ghosted objects well. I could however animate the rings as sprites so that they could fade out (and have a neat little animation as well).

3) Loading screen. Definately! I had one earlier, but I took it out because it used DB sprites which tended to crash the game at times. DB sprites are really terrible things... But I will correct this with my own method asap!

4) Too fast? It is supposed to be this fast. However, you could try going to the Settings and turning the game accuracy all the way up, then increasing the max viewable distance.

5) Track difficulty - I'll do what I can to make the track difficulty curve not so steep. I may even implement checkpoints in the next release.

6) Level restarting lag - Don't know. I don't have any lag on this 800MHz CPU, but then again I have a GeForce4 mx440. Or are you talking about before the level actually restarts when it fades to black? Not much I can do about lag here: SET GAMMA is a very slow function.

7) What's my level format? I'm using Ogg/DivX encoded AVIs with chocolate sprinkles, then converted to rabid llama format. My format is quite proprietary and will probably even vary in a later release of the game. I will release my custom map editor soon though.

8) Music jerk - I don't think I can fix this. This happens with all DB programs. Maybe using MOD music (which I hope to do someday anyhow) will help?

9) Power ring slowdown - I also don't think I can fix this without compiling in DBP, which I don't have. I don't have this problem though, nor do many of those who have playtested.

10) Slow menu after playing some levels - Sometimes this happens for me too. I really have no idea why, for my code is really quite clean. I think DB may have several memory leaks. After loading oodles of objects and then deleting them several times as you go through different levels, there is probably some terrible slow leak.


Thanks everybody for the input so far! I'll do my best with these issues.


http://www.galaxyware.tk
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Mattman
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Posted: 20th Jun 2003 19:18
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what the heck is:
Ogg/DivX
chocolate sprinkles
rabid llama format

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
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Rob K
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Posted: 20th Jun 2003 20:00
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I think this game would benefit greatly from being compiled under DBP, however, be aware that the two are quite different, so it probably won't compile first time.

By slow levels, I mean that the game is literally too slow to play. I don't think this is a graphics problem, it is probably the number of collision checks you are doing. If you can cut collision checking down to a minimum, the speed will probably increase.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 20th Jun 2003 23:59 Edited at: 21st Jun 2003 00:27
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Nope, it's definately not collision testing. I don't use the cruddy DB collision methods, but rather very precise array-based mathematical collision tests. I test each corner of the skycar's (imaginary) bounding box with the appropriate array cells around it, and check only those cells. My collision code brought endless headaches to write, and though I'm proud of it, I'd hate to do it again! It is exact collision (if you hit a wall, you become aligned perfectly flush with that wall), rather than standard "old x,y,z" collision or "epsilon distance away" collision. I'm almost sure it's the massive number of objects, especially the large rotating ghosted objects in the background.

Yeah, once a friend compiled it for me in DBP and it ran wonderfully! Too bad he got a trucking job and is now in some random state. Since I do most functions myself instead of internal DB functions, it compiled perfectly with the exception of ghosted objects looking strange. Ran like a charm also. But I'm a poor college guy with no money to spare for DBP. Maybe if I could pull in some revenue somehow...?


Mattman: It's a revolutionary level format that only monkeys are allowed to use.


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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 00:11
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Oh yeah Rob (I really appreciate the help by the way!)... I need to make of a list of what levels are specifically too slow. I know most of the "Where Stars are Born" levels are too slow. I worry about "Storms of Jupiter" on slower machines, but it works ok on mine.

Which levels specifically were unplayable or even slightly diminished by lag?


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Rob K
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 00:36
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"Maybe if I could pull in some revenue somehow...?"

Remember that you get a discount if you upgrade from DBC.

I'll take a look later (I've just finished a marathon coding session so I'm off out), but I am pretty sure that it is something other than gfx. Its time to do some rather boring speed profiling.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 00:47
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It's still a steep price for me at this time. Girlfriends demand a lot of money and are not even worth your time anyhow!

And indeed, time to bring out the ol' TIMER() function, *sigh .


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Mattman
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 01:27
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seriously monkey, where would u get:
Ogg/DivX
chocolate sprinkles
rabid llama format

i need stuff to make levels desperetly right now, i don't find anything i have found that good

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 10:18
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For crying out loud

Let me quote myself here:
"My format is quite proprietary and will probably even vary in a later release of the game. I will release my custom map editor soon though."

Hence, I made the format specifically for my game. I wrote the editor and the in-game interpreter. It will only work in my game.


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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 11:35
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Narrowed down the lag issues to a conclusion... frustration.

Not any game calculations, but the physical act of SYNCing the screen, by TIMER() before/after comparisons, is causing the lag. It's roughly porportional to the number of polys on the screen - STATISTIC(1) - but will vary depending on object effects and mipmapping and other such influences. The only cure I can see is somehow reducing polys (and possibly the texture detail). I wish I knew an effective way to compile levels, as a BSP is compiled into the most efficient number of polygons possible by removing faces. I perhaps can remove faces of the blocks that are flush to other like faces. Maybe block resizing where there is a stream of identical block types. Sounds difficult.

But that does explain why "Where Stars are Born #1" is so slow. Not only does it have a lot of blocks, not only does it have a lot of ghosted blocks, but the ghosted blocks have 2-sided faces so that they render the side edges when the camera is looking from the inside out (doubling the rendered faces). I'd use statics and occlusion, but they don't work with my video card and then I can't do a lot of object-specific commands.

Time for some plotting...


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Rob K
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 11:42 Edited at: 21st Jun 2003 11:44
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Why don't you check out UW's VisibleWorlds? It is a visiblity compiler which works a bit like BSP and only shows visible objects. I suggest you post on RGT for help, and you can get it for stupidly low prices atm ($10 or something). There is an old DB demo there.

http://www.underwaredesign.com

It is compatible with 3DMapEditor if you want a visual way of making levels.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 13:50
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Thanks for the advice, but I nerded out for about 3 hours and figured out how to do my own CSG routines. I really surprised myself here; figured out how to remove the correct faces on the first try. There are some further optimizations I could do, but I think I solved the majority of the extra face rendering problem.

Here's a wireframe example of what I did. Pay no heed to the FPS counter; it's incorrect because I use my own SYNCing functions that make DBC inaccurately calculate the SCREEN FPS(). Check out the drastic difference in poly count and the time one SYNC takes:

BEFORE:


AFTER:



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Mattman
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 17:26
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ohh, now i see. well, how did u do it? jk/lol

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2003 11:22
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Writing code to place objects around a scene isn't too hard. Just need to keep track of the objects, their numbers, their properties, positions, special conditions, etc. Write these all to some file in an order that makes sense. Then use a FOR loop to cycle until the end of the level/file has been loaded, loading the objects and setting their properties sequentially. It helps to store data in an array, in my case a 3d one.

Interpreting the data in real time it a bit more tricky. You need to do collision, VISing/CSG-ing, and other calculations independently (usually) of the level format; this part is a pain in the ass.


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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 01:17
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This is a great game, I have finally completed the leaving earth stage, I don't care if it's hard, it'll last longer ! No more bugs as of yet, but I found that if you come on and off of the main menu, then it cures the slowdown.

cuRant PRogekt: a three-de map editer
Why the hell'd you ask me for crying out loud!?!
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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 11:56
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Heh, thanks there. If "Leaving Earth" gave you trouble though, most of the remainder of the tracks will be a nightmare!

Strange about the menu thing; I'll check it out in detail later (if I'm not lazy).

Gonna soon release a version soon that should address almost all of the problems listed...


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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 05:20 Edited at: 27th Jun 2003 05:21
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YES!
Beta version .84 is now done!

I did so much work on this latest release, and it looks and works great! I added the CSG system, so the game is faster. I added checkpoints, so the game is more playable. I added some nice loading screens. I added a lot of little optimizations and some new sprites and sounds.

Please download now! Tell me if I've achieved what you hoped I had. Does it work well, is it playable? Any more last suggestions before I call it 1.0? (I admit a few levels are still a bit slow, but I think it's a lot better now.)


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Mattman
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 16:54
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nice! all we need now is your map editor!!!

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 19:59
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Checkpoints are definitely an improvement (especially on the later levels). I do notice an increase in speed, the loading screens look great.

It is playable, it always was. The only bug I can see is a minor one. When you crash and the screen fades, when you restart at the beginning/checkpoint, the screen flickers. It looks like it does this because you are reseting the gamma levels before you re-position the camera, I think you just have to swap the order they are done to fix this.

The only improvement I can think of would be when the ship crashes -maybe you could make it bounce of the wall when it explodes, rather than stopping dead. Everything else has been done in the game, thats all I could think of (sorry I'm not more helpful)!

Slowdown still happens when you quit a level, but if it is what you said it was then its not really fixable.

Well Done!

cuRant PRogekt: a three-de map editer
Why the hell'd you ask me for crying out loud!?!
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 20:29
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A couple of points :

There is a minute pause before the animation of the car exploding.

Quitting the program is a bit annoying, you have to go back to the title, press a key and then select the quit program option.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Angeleyes
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 22:34
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One word....
G.R.E.A.T

Love the game, but I did find that it was sometimes a little slow on pressing to jump and it jumping....Plus the Quit from the game needs sorting out.

But who cares???

Quake and all the other games ever been made had a few bugs/quirks so dont worry, your game is fine. I think you will add to it as time goes on but right now this should be looked on as finished.

VERY WELL DONE.

Ta ta for now
Mary

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Hell IVIonkey
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 00:37
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Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen !

Sorry, I didn't mention, you CAN quit directly from within a game. Simply hit the [q] key.

The other issues you've brought up here I will fix asap! They shouldn't be too difficult to do.

Oh yeah, and I'm cleaning up the map editor now too so that I can release it. I hope you people would enjoy using it!


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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 22:45
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cool

cuRant PRogekt: a three-de map editer
Why the hell'd you ask me for crying out loud!?!
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