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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Heightmap Terrain Brush + Conform/Mold Plain Object to Matrix Surface Help

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 8th Jan 2008 18:25
Quote: "You asked why its slow. My GUESS is that because you are reading from the MEMBLOCK, Manipulating the data, Copying the results BACK to the MemBlock and Then Going out to the VERT so you can SAVE the Change (so you can see it)..... Well... Sounds like a lot of work doesn't it?"


It does... but I'm not even to that point yet. All I have done is making a terrain object out of a memblock. I'm not manipulating any data or going out to any verts yet and saving changes.

Thats why I worried about speed, lol. I'm not even doing anything to it yet and it's bogged down. I don't understand why the FPS should be crap if the only thing in my do loop is the camera control. And even after taking that out, it still is crap. I was expecting a load time while the terrain was created, but not a constant effect on the system... maybe I'm mistaken?

Run this and see what I mean.

jason p sage
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Posted: 8th Jan 2008 19:30
Oh.... Well that takes a while on my machine - even for a fairly "Smaller" terrain:

4x4 Objects, each with 4x4 limbs, each with ...say 32 "Cells" Across.

Though don't forget - your Editor Might take a bit to load,save "WORKING CANVAS" but you can save meshes in Direct.X file format.... or Objects to DBO - so you will probably find that a loading a finished "Direct.X" mesh you made with your editor loads MUCH FASTER.

Dark Basic just isn't fast at nested loops - and then even 512*512 segments is 262,144 iterations, and multiple numers for each of these to boot!

Yeah - Expect a little "pause" at least! I have same issue even in GDK! I just just grin and bear it

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 02:30
Quote: "I was expecting a load time while the terrain was created, but not a constant effect on the system... maybe I'm mistaken?"


Sorry, forgot to mention my load time is pretty fast. Thats what I was trying to say. I WAS expecting a long load time and good FPS but instead I got a nice load time with crappy FPS.



On another note completely off the topic of FPS problems... I'm pretty frustrated with programming right now. I look around and see all you guys comprehending this stuff like it's night and day, and everyone else's nice, awesome editors that were built in like two weeks and wonder what the hell I'm doing trying to program. I guess I had a dream.

Sorry for my pessimistic tone right now, and the pity party but... I dunno. Maybe I need a break from this stuff.

Sid out-
jason p sage
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 02:52
I posted in another thread a "Get Up, Dust yourself off, and keep cracking" Post - I gope I haven't EVER made ya feel bummed. Meaning I hope I didn't somehow contribute to your frustration!

For your Frame Rates - I REALLY think you need to play with Lost-In-Thought's Frustrum Limb Occlusion Code.

It looks like Murder - and its overwhelming - but once you really start messing with it - its not so bad... Shoot I don't understand HOW it all works but the mechanics are simple:

Anything thing in VIEW - Show, Otherwise - Hide if limb, exclude if object.

Ok...Elaboration: To Start - you pass the "Limb Setup" function with all your objects you want culled. It basically stores the "top,left,right,bottom for future use. This means you can't move the "Objects" once they are set up.

Each Cycle, the "Frustrum culler" goes through the list, comparing the saved info about each object/limb and compares it to the current camera view (size/position) and shows what SHOULD be there, and hides/excludes what shouldn't.

This DOES MIRACULOUS things to your frame rates.

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 02:58
I know I saw.

Quote: "I hope I haven't EVER made ya feel bummed. Meaning I hope I didn't somehow contribute to your frustration! "


No you haven't, well, lol, not directly. You've helped a lot, but doing so you've showed me the way how to REALLY do it and it's really complicated to me lol. But thank you for all your help thus far, and the help you'll continue to produce for. I really, REALLY, appreciate it.

I'll look into the limb stuff soon.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
jason p sage
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 03:21
Glad you're dusting yourself off!

I understand the "If I'm not into it - why bother" - I totally get that - and I NEVER wrote a pong game - I'm against PONG - I'm making a new ANTI-PONG league!

BTW - Between you and me (And the REST of the internet reading this)
Iron Infantry is HUGE tall order - I SO relate! I've written the Terrain 3 times and I'm still learning stuff!

We are all at different levels - but the guys on the higher levels have all been at the lower levels...obvious? Well.. Let me put it in perspective.

Some Newb can't get an array to work - I make a suggestion - they are estatic - WOW - Awesome - Feels Good - I definately feel like I probably know more than they did - and that's why I was able to help....

Then I start building terrains right...like you - coding 3 years right? Me 26? Sure I get some stuff - but I wasn't game programming for YEARS - like I was making 2d stuff - then just didn't...now I'm back - new playing field.

I try advanced - has issues - long time to figure it out - I try editors - (other peoples) and I can never get why this or that doesn't seem to work - each iteration I learn alot - what to I have to show? NOTHING!

I finally understand the meshes and how to do it - understanding what must be to actually doing it WOO HOO! Then I learn all the things I'm doing wrong, I REWRITE EVERYTHING.... I spend DAYS - I'm better now - Phew - glad that's done - THEN.....

Then Visigoth, IanM, VanB, CattleRustler, Cash Curtis, Green Gandalf, and others ...(Dark Coder is good for this also) - say something, make a suggestion, post some code or something that totally makes me rethink it - and (the part I hate) If I after mucvh thought decide there way is better ... better enough to be worth implementing to get something quality... I suck it up - and start coding that "thing" from scratch - each time applying something else I've learned.


Everytime I get something working I seem to find a flaw....I hate flaws - not all of them - but ones CORE to the system I'm building on? Yeah. REWRITE! aahhhhh


Hang in there! You're doing fancier stuff than I was 3years into coding! I was still making stuff that looked like those old windows screen savers drawing lines moving around the screen....

I did Text games for a year or so in the very beginning...you're advancing just fine!

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 03:32
Quote: "I try advanced - has issues - long time to figure it out - I try editors - (other peoples) and I can never get why this or that doesn't seem to work - each iteration I learn alot - what to I have to show? NOTHING!"


Yeah, thats what I feel. I'm learning a lot, and growing in theory, but as for code and the 'know how' of how to do things it's insane.

Quote: "Then Visigoth, IanM, VanB, CattleRustler, Cash Curtis, Green Gandalf, and others ...(Dark Coder is good for this also) - say something, make a suggestion, post some code or something that totally makes me rethink it - and (the part I hate) If I after mucvh thought decide there way is better ... better enough to be worth implementing to get something quality... I suck it up - and start coding that "thing" from scratch - each time applying something else I've learned."


I think your referencing the slow matrix thread right? And yeah lol, thats exactly what you did to me! You understand now haha =]

Yeah, I've been watching that too and thinking about stuff. I have a ton of different ideas from different people floating around in my head though, and I'm having a hard time pinning everyone's down lol.

So after reading that, if you were to redo your whole engine from scratch, how would you?

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
jason p sage
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 04:23 Edited at: 9th Jan 2008 04:35
Well - How about asking me something that doesn't require a BRAIN DUMP or a complete Pscho Analyzation of what I THINK is correct... as this will definately bring a WHOLE FLURRY of Posts telling me How WRONG I AM...Misery Loves Company - And I know there are some fellas on here ywho would drink to that

Ok... Here are some facts FROM MY Perspective:

1: Need to support LOW SPEC up through HIGH spec - so need shaderless and textures and all kinds of user configurable varioations up to high spec - shaders everywhere etc.

2: Need to plan the LOD and FRUSTRUM OCCLUSION system AHEAD OF TIME so (talking terrain at least now) ...so everything you do from mesh design on up is designed to work together... like carefully crafted gears in a mechanical clock - which is a good analogy IMHO.

3: building the meshes yourself - gives you alot more flexibility - many reasons However this brings in a lot of WHAT-IF scenarios - and "What is best" that I'm still trying to figure out.

2 Triangles = 1 Square - My First Technique - has a SAWTOOTH effect when a hill is going against the "Grain" - BatVink's current Terrain project seems to have this design - I scraped mine, for Visigoth's pattern in the USGS terrain demo - its a SQUARE also, but is made of 8 triangles arranged to make what looks like a diamond in the Square - effectively alternating the triangle "angle" seams... less saw tooth - tougher to normalize manually - has welded verts to - which makes flat shading a NO GO (ugh) but makes Gerhrouad shading the flavor of the day - though the algorthm to get it is tricky because of the various triangles being laid out differently... BUT I was studiny another terrain engine today - and this guy uses pure triangle Strips - there are no SQUARES anywhere! http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=141

Also - this guy implemented a poly optimizer that totally man handles poly count - something I think DarkGDK and DBPro just aren't equipped to do real time. I mean, I can only think that you'd have to take the mesh, make a memblock, rearrange verts, delete verts, then make a mesh again, then make a object to replace the otjhers... this would eventually stop working (cuz of the DarkGDK/DBPro not liking constant creating/deleting of objects etc) and would be real slow. (more on this below)

Also - I read an Article Visigoth sent me - about "Tesilating" triangles or something for a similiar LOD strategy - I MIGHT try to implement some varion of these - that is workable in DarkGDK/DBPro... like swapping different LOD "Objects" for another and TRYING to match Verts along seams in real time maybe to cover the "Holes".... I can live with pop in LOD in exchange for faster FPS!!

4: The tricky Trade Off: DarkGDK/DBPro both start fouling up over time if your program constantly deletes/creates objects. Hmmm... Plus I'm told overall performance goes down when you have to many objects (Forget rendering - even if they are excluded, I'm told there is a performance penalty... something about DBPro/DarkGDK inner workings....) BUT the flip side to this - is that EXCLUDING an OBJECT from a scene has a MUCH bigger FPS boost then hiding a limb... SO... MAYBE... Forget LIMBS al together and instead make a "efficient" way to check if these objects are in the screen without having to loop through ALL of them...

(This is what I'm working on now... I admit I don't know all the right terms for all the various "design constructs" people use - but I thnk I'm building some sort of binary tree... its simple in theory but a trick to make a terrain automatically just be set up correctly. The idea is based on 2's compliment - like those bit values I mentioned to you...but starting at 2 because its based on cutting searching down by halving the FRUSTRUM SEARCHES recursively.

Take a 32x32 tiled terrain. Now cut it into Quarters, and measure their collective size - that is - measure how big each quarter is. Now in the Frustrum Culling ocde, the first thing it would do is check if that "Quarter" of the terrain is on the screen - if not, GREAT! That's 256 Tiles I can Eliminate from this Search! I do the same for the other 3 quarters. If a Quarter is on Screen.... then I then (its dived in four quarters too..or more appropriately, "Eighth's" - and I do the same thing. Is this 1/8 group of tiles in the cam view? No? Great... Thats 64 more objects I don't need to check...etc... this is a recursive routine like looking at your files in Windows Explorer with it displays a tree view.

What Would I do? Going back to your question? I BREAK it down to the smallest compoent but TRY to have an eye for the future - My GOAL is fast terrain, Big Terrain, Ability to Walk on or Fly over and have decent appearance. That's why I'm at the drawing board thinkning about stuff I won't do until way later - like worry about frame rates - I'm worried NOW.

I don't have a answer for ya - but from a Research-n-Development point of view - Having concentrated on routines that WRAP some MESH stuff in such a way I only have to rewrite their inards - helps - as I break code in chunks - not all at once

Like - I have calls like getvertheight(x,z) Now how I make the function work changes with each iteration of development, but it always does the same thing - these little things are import... and so it making one or more of these routines able to load and plot USGS data - or atleast a heightmap - why? So I can test my code without worring about vert placement all to much. Again Why? Cuz I'm more worried about FAST then pretty at the moment - I can always do various things to add PRETTY - but Why bother to add pretty to a SLOW piece of crap?

That's my brain dump for now... I don't have a better answer - just that ... LIKE YOU - I'll probably write this code quite a few more times before having something truly satisfying - but I'll Learn SOMETHING each step of the way...

And BTW - there is no shame in taking it back a notch! Having the best "design" in the world - and a huge custom code library that does everything including brush your teeth - is not the same as having a finished game - even PONG! What is the Addage? OH... A bird in the hand is better then two in the bush?

Yeah - my main thing now is trying to figure out how to make limb culling fast as hell for any of my terrains...period. Textures and all that - I want to get to but I really want to try to get SOMETHING that is blazing fast - and THEN do the next step.

Best Regards Bro,
Jason P Sage

[edit]

See Here: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=142 See How he describes the way to Optimize the Poly? With his littler pictures etc? That is how I'm making thefrustrum culling work kind of - I THINK I'm making..not a binary tree - but a QUAD-Tree... I'm guessing but it seems so similiar - same requirements - sort of - my Terrain tiles must be 2x2, 4x4,8x8, 16x16 etc. (Though 2x2 would be pointless

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 05:33
Quote: "Well - How about asking me something that doesn't require a BRAIN DUMP or a complete Pscho Analyzation of what I THINK is correct..."


LMAO, I know right? I knew that was a pretty hefty question to ask, but I needed to know. There are so many ways to do these things, and each way has it's advantages and disadvantages; then, come to find out, each of those ways have different variations! Ah! Thanks for the brain dump though, it's helping me to pick and choose from a list of what can and can't be done right now.

I love the twentysideddie guy, he's pretty amazing. I've taken a look at his other stuff too, it's very cool. You know he released his source code right? Since you can read C++, you should take a look at it =] I'll probably dissect it in the future too.

I want to reply to each part of your post, but it's going to have to wait until tomorrow. I have some reading to finish up for college and then I'm off to bed.

Stay tuned though

And thanks for the brain dump

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
jason p sage
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 16:52
Your welcome on the brain dump, and I have that code archived - but's open GL - and The Whole Triangle Strip thing is something I understand but looking at the code without knowing OpenGL "Requirements" etc ... doesn't mean anything to me...yet... like why he might have v1+4 and v2-2 ... All that vert plotting doesn't mean anything unless you break out pen and paper and trace his drawing steps... vert by vert...and see what ACTUALLY goes into Open GL and How he then works it. Like the Poly Optimization thing - I get the concept - he doesn't explain details really - but its in his code somewhere.... and I'm not so Sure there is a clean way to "Trim" out Verts and stuff realtime in DBPro/DarkGDK without having to make a mesh from object, manipulate it, and then create a new object from the new mesh. This makes the OBJECT/CREATION/DELETION bug in evitable folly!

So - yeah I have his code - glad I could help ya out - and you're not the only one trying to figure out the perfect terrain algorythm sweet spot for DBPro/DarkGDK.

Trouble is - many ways WORK - but fail under different conditions - for visuals, frame rates, reusuability, amount you can "view" at once or have for a total terrain...etc. plus texture memory things to consider - shader versus texture - repate textures or not etc etc etc.

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 05:17 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 06:12
Remember when you were talking about how when you were doing your limbs and you scrolled the object texture and only the object texture did it (or something to that effect).

Well, I think I'm at the point right now. I was curious to see whether or not when I made my limbs they started at the objects position or just around it so the object would fit in perfectly, so I turned wireframe on. I saw that the object was being covered by the limbs and there was so fighting going on between them...

Did you not notice that they were overlapping? And thats why you got that weird effect?

EDIT: Got my stuff working and btw, limbs are amazing. I have a huge terrain now and my FPS skyrocketed and I haven't even culled yet. I think limbs combined with the fact I'm not doing that obscene amount of memblock mesh tiles that we laughed about on the phone is what is helping. Limbs are in place, however I might change things because right now the object is part of the terrain itself. I think you mentioned something about making the object not visible in the background somewhere and just working with the limbs. Or was your solution just making that little triangle?

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
jason p sage
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 13:31
No - definately not overlapping... the effect was dramatic.

I basically had a loop position everything LimbsX,LimbsZ (floats) LimbSizeX, LimbSizeZ
pseudo code - I'm half asleep


Above positions... then for UV... You need routine to allow you to Set each vertex for your grid with x,y coords... and loop through each... but the math should be done basically

U increment for uv per vert: (1/TotalVertsX + TheExtraOneAtEnd)/VertsAccross

V increment for uv per vert: (1/TotalVertsZ + TheExtraOneAtEnd)/VertsDeep

You set these two at same time usually: SetUV(x,z,uvalue, vvalue)

You'll want your own routine to handle taking the x,z and figuring out if its object limb 0, or the other limbs, lock appropriate one, edit the vertex uv data, unlock... move one. You can rty to optimize also ... by locking a limb at a time, and setting all the u/v.. in theory is faster.

crawling away from keyboard any minute to crawl into clothes and drag my self to work.... grrr

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 18:27 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 18:35
Sorry to hear you exhausted. I hate going to work tired =[

Yeah I have a routine to create the limbs. I cycle through them, offset them and then I delete the first limb in order make room for the object so there is no overlapping. Kinda odd... feels a bit sloppy but. Lol.


32 is the tilesize, eventually it will be replaced by a variable so I can change this at will but for now it stays that way.

I didn't know I had to do that UV thing still... maybe this is the source to my problems below?

Ok, onto a few vert welding questions... I'm not sure if this is happening right because I've gotten some odd results.

First, so have something to go by, this is without welded verts:


Secondly with the objects verts welded:


Third, with all the limbs verted data wielded:

Not sure if I'm even doing this way right:


How should I weld verts? Do I JUST do it the object before I make limbs of it? (doing it after I make all the limbs doesn't seem to change anything... or does it?) I mean, it looks like It's working because the vert count goes from like 6144 to 1089 or something like that but whats throwing me is that am I suppose to see an increase in FPS or memblock size?

And why am I getting that weird pink thing on my main object? Even when I texture everything all the limbs have the texture and look fine but the object is oddly colored.

Please advise

EDIT: (I like how we're discussing stuff that isn't under the subject of this thread anymore lol. Oh well... all this stuff leads up to that, and I intend to work from where I am now up to that point so...)

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
jason p sage
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 19:13
Being Tired does stink but at least IT FRIDAY!!!!!!!

#1 - Looks Fine - just no UV Math - I just love the rainbow Colors!

#2 - is why when I made the triangle(1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) thing, as my base objects and made all the actual "welded mesh" become limbs - versus Limb 0 being my first tile. (Btw - Deleting the first limb is BAD and sloppy, and will make UV thing possibly funky because your loop will be weird when its building/applying the U,V values.

#3 - Um... (Because I have no idea - I just try to cover my inability to suggest help by insulting you) YOU Obviously Hosed that one!

Actully - I think the "Pinks" look like the top left corner issue like in #2.

See what I did was copy VisiGoth's MESH CREATION code - did everything he does RIGHT UP UNTIL the Make Object from Mesh - which I don't do.

I make Object triangle (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) or whatever - just a single poly I think, then I make the entire grid that of limbs made from his final mesh.

NOTE... he used DBPro - and used a routine that I am jealous of in DarkGDK: Set Object Normals ObjectID

See that? That works out to as little as 60 lines of code for me and sometime 200 lines of code! Amazingly - it happens PRETTY fast...only notice "PAUSE" when doing fairly large terrains.... which for me is actually....um.... ALL THE TIME! I can't wait until I have something decent, can save off the DBO files, and SEE THEM so much faster than dynamically creating them!

Your getting pretty close to a workable mesh worthy of making those help routines to wrap around it in an editor like SetVert(x,y) etc.

Remember - Get the Mesh Tidy, Then work on understanding UV, (texture for testing naturally)... Then Raise Verts, and see how no shadowing! (Providing your initial vertex normals set to 0,1,0 (Straight up)) Then you use either SET OBJECT NORMALS ObjId or you write your own - and that - be prepared - is kinda of difficult. But once you ACTUALLY DO IT - You won't think "Wow that's easy" but I personally was like - WOW that's NEAT. Though - I couldn't wait to be done with my "NormalizeMatrix" routine! Now I can just set heights, call NormalizeMatrix (Which normalizes my normals...doesn't that sound odd?) and then I see shadows on hills bumps etc. Note - this doesn't cast shadows, but poly facing away from light have less light. I bet you could do some REALLY crazy looking Effects by playing with those individually while displaying the action realtime! There is a mathematicians (don't care if I spelled it wrong!) playground!

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 19:31
Thanks =]

Yeah, it didn't feel right deleting that limb.

After you made the triangle, what did you do with it? Do I remember you saying you put it under neath the mesh or way out in space somewhere? If so, how did you just move the object and not have the limbs follow?

Or did you just leave it attached to the mesh so like its:

____
| |
----<| box is mesh, <| is triangle.

So (thinking out loud now) like you said, you never made an object out of your terrain mesh. You made a triangle object, threw it under the carpet, and then copied that terrain mesh into a bunch of limbs for the triangle. Hmm. This triangle bit still seems shady to me. Have you asked any of the other guru's about this?

And sorry, I'm still not understanding your answer on the weld part. You cycled through each of your limbs and welded each one? I didn't think that was required since it's taking the data from the mesh (the only one I'm thinking you should weld), copying it and then making limbs. Shouldn't those verts already be welded if the cookie cutter one is welded?

I was hoping to avoid this as it takes some time to crunch through each limb.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
jason p sage
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 22:13
No - I make the mesh, and then use that mesh like a cookie cutter
AddLimb(obj,1,mesh)
AddLimb(obj,2,mesh)
AddLimb(obj,3,mesh)
etc.

The triangle is just tiny, I don't move it.

Shady? Well... Same UV method applied to WHOLE object... Only limb zero acted weird with Welded vert version of mesh... so I made triangle because limb 1 and up were fine.

Just making double sure you know: I never welded limbs together...you can't I don't think... I created limbs using the the ONE welded mesh, over and over.

david w
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 22:32
if you welded the limbs then it is just becomes one object. You cant but if you did then thats what it would be.
jason p sage
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 00:16
@Sid and David - This is what I'm getting using the method Sid and I are discussing, using a repeated Texture, no Shader, and Frustrum Culling - in a Desktop window. (attaching Image)

It's not bad - but I'm doing a QUADTREE next to speed up the Frustrum Culler even more NOTE - I heard in DirectX10 its totally different - no more "Hardware Pipeline" Is this true? This is Sad!! I get impression you can ONLY texture with some sort of shader solution... that can't be right...can it? Are my efforts in Vain? Outdated before I Start? (Do I need to buy Vista JUST to develop a game that could live a few years? AHHHH)

david w
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 03:41
Thats a very nice screen. I think alot better than anything I have done. Great job.
jason p sage
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 04:19
I've been working very hard to get something decent, and your comment made it feel all the more worthwhile! Thank You very Much for the kind words!

I wanted to comment that I have done some preliminary stuff for the Quadtree, to speed up the Frustrum Culling but I am not finished. During these "Prep" passes through my code, I've been making optimizations in the Frustrum Code, not "QuadTree Related" and I've doubled the performance, and I'm thinking the speed is adequate, and that I may take it down a notch for simplicity's sake, and keep the Quad Code I have for when it becomes more necessary. (It takes a lot of prethough and prep for it, and to find it doesn't help because my bottleneck is poly related, well... that's what optimizing the Frustrum Culling and various tests are telling me.

This is good news, this means I have some "Code backing out" to do to "simplify" the frustrum culling code a bit now that I've littered it with Quadtree code.

I think my next step is to try a few "Texture Blending" tricks and see how my card handles this many "tiles" each with their own textures at varying sizes, just to get a feel of what is possible, and so I know where to put my efforts... Reating Textures or more "Paint my Landscape" sort of solutions.

Bottom line is I'm having fun learning this stuff and experimenting (usually) and I tried to GET AWAY... By Playing some Online Halo with my son.... and it was fun, but the more I played the more I wanted to get back to coding my game versus playing someone else's!

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 06:18 Edited at: 12th Jan 2008 06:23
Quote: "if you welded the limbs then it is just becomes one object. You cant but if you did then thats what it would be."


Ah, ok. Roger. So the only thing I should weld is the object, and before I duplicate it into limbs, not the limbs...

But if I'm stuck using that little triangle trick of Jason's, then how exactly am I going to weld a mesh than isn't made into an object? The problem is the triangle acts as the object and limbs are made in the terrains appearance. Whats to weld? Wouldn't the limbs need welding or no?

Jason, I'm no to sure how much you've looked on the net for quadtree information, but I found what looks like a VERY good tutorial on how to set one up. http://www.gamedev.net/reference/programming/features/quadtrees/

I'm definitely going to take a look at this later. I'm trying to sort out this limb and texture issue first. I still have to write that normalization code too.

But now! I'm off to do hw... bah.

EDIT: Oh, and nice screenie by the way. Forgot to mention that =]

Are you using the 32x32 tile thing too? If you weild it, it should drop from 6144 verts down to 1089... not sure where that number comes down from though lol. 6144 comes from 32*32*6. As far as 1089 goes... no idea lol.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 11:54 Edited at: 12th Jan 2008 14:53
Well - I think I made an Object, weld it, then converted that to a mesh, deleted the object - then made a new mesh the way I described above with the welded mesh. Hokey? Well... I think that's how its done... it seems to work pretty good.

though the whole delete/add objects "bug" makes me consider this something I don't fo more than once per program invocation - then again - I'm planning to eventually export DBO so it won't be issue anyway

I actually did the whole logic myself - before I realized/guessed I made a quadtree. I just made a optimizer based on the problem at hand. I hear things like quad, oct, binary...I quessed I made a quadtree... then I looked it up in your link and on wiki - and what'd'ya know... I made a quad tree... same basic recursive approach and everything! That was very validating of my work and a great link!

The only thing he does different - is make a straight array, and mark them nodes versus leaves, where I use a memory based linked list, for this, that is nested like a directory tree. His is probably less clock cycles overall, but stepping through a double linked list is pretty fast also. I'm going to take another look at his code versus what my double link list would do - and see if the total instructions warrants me rethinking this a little.

Note: for Frustrum culling, you still need to manage if something is hidden or not, and depending on quad tree frustrum checks, go out and show/hide those chunks not in range. This piece made me wonder how much a saving I'll really enjoy. Even testing "is it hidden already?" would take just as long I figure (guess) as just looping through all and EXCLUDE OBJECT, HIDE LIMB across the whole terrain, then use QUADTREE logic to turn visible ones on. That is where I hope enough saving are. Right this moment though - I got a big FPS increase just by changing the original Frustrum Cull Logic a little here and there.

Concerning the number of vertex eliminaterd via welded, I probably will opt to stay with welded and have less "lighting" options via setting vertex normals with various methods, and just go for the "Averaged" normal approach when I have time to really clean the appearance. I'm currently using a old DarkBasic Classic Metrix loop I found - that sets normals using ATanFull, its pretty decent, but I THINK it leaves a few "marks" of darkness that are to square... I think averaging the normals of all poly around a given vertice and calcing the "average normal" from those will give softer edges and might look better. THAT isn't a fun routine to write though.

Thanx for the compliments on the pic! I was smiling big!

[edit]Since I wrote this response, I've gone back to the QuadTree thing. when I think about it, a quick loop to just Exclude Objects, and then quadtree logic to turn on stuff in frustrum only still seems LIKE ALOT less code/time at runtime then frustrum checking each object in a grid.

Also, I decided for a reasons of complexity and my desire to have OBJECT tiles MAINLY (Talking Terrain now) due to the whole Exclude Object thing having a bigger impact than hiding a limb. However, the limb Culling infastructure is still there for things like loaded "Levels" inside a building for example. In fact, I can still use limbs with the QUADTREE terrain... but it scans each limb in the "terrain object tile" - as the QUADTREE logic just does its magic on OBJECTS. This may change - its not THAT big a leap - but I think because I wat entire objects excluded or not, for terrain at least that this will be still a huge benefit.

Note - I have the Frustrum code down to speeds that don't register via timer function - (this is why I thnk Poly are still the main bottleneck generally...reason for frustrum culling in first place) but when I think about all the math to check for box and cube and even the little bit for SPHERE culling, times EVERY "TILE" - I think that the quick global "EXCLUDE ALL" and using Quadtree logic to turn these objects on that are visible - will ultimately lead to MANY less frustrum comparisons, and therefore - even though its a bit of fwork to setup, and the execution looks a little twisted - it will ultimately be faster by a significant amount (depending on camera placement and camera range per cycle basis) overall.

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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 03:22 Edited at: 14th Jan 2008 03:22
Ok, back to business. Sorry for the short absence. I've been a bit busy the past couple days.

So I've been working on the welding and after following your instructions jason I'm almost there! But I've having a few issues still.

Quote: "think I made an Object, weld it, then converted that to a mesh, deleted the object - then made a new mesh the way I described above with the welded mesh."


Did all that, and now the UV's are messed up big time. Here's a small screenie:



I've been tinkering around with differ commands and stuff but haven't really had a break through yet... Here's my latest source:



Advice?

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 04:40
Um... No. Critique for your code? None. Source code that might explain UV - even though its C++? That I have!



Hope this helps.

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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 06:46
I think I killed it...



Geesh.

I'll try again tomorrow lol.

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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 07:12
I REALLY recommend you look at Visigoth's USGS USGS Demo - Its DBPro, it makes Welded "Objects" on the fly, uses the SET OBJECT NORMALS command, and sets the UV also.

But that pic sure is colorful! LOL Hang In there - If it makes you feel better I've been hammering at a Quadtree - simple concept - UGH trying to implement - um... for 4-5 days - and all that just because I THINK it might be faster than the culling I have working already! I'm REALLY READY for it to work... soon...Now is good... bah.... LOL

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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 16:51
Yeah, I'll go and find that later, as I'm at school right now =]

LOL - I know right? What was even weirder is that the mesh did some really weird things to the camera as I flew around it. Like the one wielded vert at the center moved where the camera moved... somehow... lol, I don't know but it was trippy haha.

I think I'll have an easy time with the quadtree stuff if I follow that tutorial. It even gives the source, so I'll just convert it DBP... doesn't sound to hard. NOW, if I wasn't following anything like you, I think I'd pull my hair out. Good luck on the quadtree stuff. Your on vacation now right? You can work on it a lot more now!

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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 17:43
Quote: "What was even weirder is that the mesh did some really weird things to the camera as I flew around it"
That is WEIRDO.... Weirdo!
Quote: "I don't know but it was trippy "
But your at school now and you feel ok right?

Quote: "I think I'll have an easy time with the quadtree stuff if I follow that tutorial"
We'll see. I looked into that Tutorial. It looks cool, and it is coded to hit less lines of code than mine at its base - It's using a single Array if I recall, and it uses this array as the complete node tree - which is how its doen - the array basically points to itself all over the place.

I went with a homebre "linked List" and basically have four nodes at the top, each node has four etc... works out to be structured like a in memory directory system where only four folders per directory are allowed. The Tutorial Actually has A faster navigation - as an array is faster than a linked list always.

BTW - I did get it to work, and I may revist that tutorial, but I have to say I saw things in that tutorial that made me wonder how I would relate the frustrum culling to it.

For Starters, the Quad Tree will hit only stuff "In VIEW" based on what it does. This means you still need to shut EVERYTHING off prior using it to selectively turn things on. Therefore... keep in mind this "part" needs to be as FAST as posible.

I personally have said Directory Structure... but I also have an "index" like a database, a STRAIGHT up array of nothing but the final "leaves"... So I can scream through THAT and get the Speed, and turning on the objects via "Walking the quadtree" through my linked lists might not be quite as fast as the array thing in the tut - it isn't slow, and is not a noticeably bottle neck at this time, and its pretty darn cool that its all working!

Yes, I might revisit especially if you come back with awesome results - then I may jump that bandwagon - but for now - I'm pretty content.

Yes, on vacation - and what stinks is I have 2 FULL DAY (Would of had to take off work for these) errands staggered in the middle of my VACA!!!! UGH

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Posted: 15th Jan 2008 02:18 Edited at: 15th Jan 2008 02:22
Lol

Well, that USGS stuff was amazing. I got the weld working thanks to that... I think! Lol. I'm wondering why it still shows the index and vertex count as 6144... not lower. Shouldn't it be lower because it's welded? 32*32*6 = 6144... isn't it lower than 6 now?

I'm still trying to texture these limbs too with a practice texture using texture limb 1,limbnum,1. All it is doing though is changing the color from that rainbow stuff to a green/brown mix. Here is an image:



EDIT:

Here it is with a blend map shader trying to be applied. Not sure why it's a solid color and not some grass texture... But I think it has to do with the same problem as above. Advice?


PS: I like the difference in FPS when using this shader =]

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Posted: 15th Jan 2008 02:46
Wow - My Card works the opposite - I LOSE FPS when applying a shader. Anyways... No Advice Except some stuff I'm learing that kinda screws us BOTH up again.

1: The USE Code I gave ya does work on a welded mesh - in fact I used the technique from VisiGoth to do it... and tweaked to taste (for scaling) ...

2: I read some posts about the different between two kinds of "QUERY" for Vertex "Counts" One is VERTICES (I think the one you using) and the other is a LISTINDEX or LST - I think its a list of the VERTS (or POLY) that are actually there. Don't recall - but its a recent post sorta - past couple days - ...

3: I've been doing alof of fiddling and thinking how I would make these "terrains" (when finished" load quicker, how to make the QUAD setup faster etc etc. I'f been thinking about it enough where it dawned on me why things like Ted Editor always have a propriatary format, then the export. I thought of this while playing with my Action 3d poly reducer (It converts mesh to a progressive mesh, then does its magic then exports results.) It's so simple I was like DUH!!!!!

They are all probably using a VERY ineffecient "POLY MESH" to make editing easier, so things like calcing lights, doing poly reduction (like Action3d) and accessing individual poly and vertices etc... they get it all set and work with that... THEN when you export it - it welds it - more or less giving you JUST the data you REALLY need.

So now I'm like - SHOOT - I had all those cool Lighting Routines etc.. not all of them would apply to welded verts but calculating them is easier BEFORE they are welded in my opinion cuz you can store a value in each...this allows doing things like averaging normals etc to get that softer shadowing effect etc..... This is more complicated on a welded vert if you ask me especially when you consider the things you just mentioned about the vertice count seems wrong.... BTW - I remember that post said it was... its giving you the vert count IF there were all there still. That's why there is another call you need - reports something you can use. hmm...


The shader is broken BTW for the same reason your texture is screwy. Once you get UV right - it snapps into place Funny how MATH actually can be rewarding in this gig - they should teach it like that in schools... so kids aren't bored...and instead are like - I can figure out hypotenuese faster than you man - look at my jeep - see I 've done it before - see how the AI turns before he nails the wall? yeah !!!


I digress.... but I scaled my "World" down on advice that 1 db unit should be a meter... I have a "Speed" system that averaging distances over time to generate a speed gauge... mph, meters per second, km per hour, what ever you want.

Now I'm off to TRY making a TEST DBPro app using ZoTaster's Kinetix or whatever - a home grown physics lib - if I can get a DBPro Demo Going - drop a box, bounce and roll etc... then I will convert it to DarkGDK and integrate into my little toolbox and have integrated physics - just so they are there - I'll learn from it, and maybe add more physics support eventually. I have this ONE program I'm using as my "playground" it has NO interface but does a ton of things - I have miles of commented code - the editro is my interface... need a USGS map converted to a bitmap and scaled? hang on commenting stufff.... uncommenting stuff... compiling.... HERE ya go! ... Oh yo want to load it now? hang on....Ok....Oh you want to see how the frustrum culling works visually with cisible "collision boxes"/....hang on ...etc.

Eventually I'll have to maker a gui system and wrap this stuff up nice and neat once its less fluidly changing...daily...back to it...off to try the physics.....

Latest Screennie after redoing textures, and the scalling etc...see attached.

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Posted: 15th Jan 2008 06:39
Success!!!

Turns out I had two variables that were wrong =]

Here's a screenie!



Man! I have come a long way! It feels SOOO good to see some results!

Yeah I'm not to sure why I gained FPS with the shader lol. That was pretty weird.

I'm envy you for being able to make a quadtree from scratch. I can't really wrap my mind around the math, so I'll be following that tutorial closely.

Not to sure what's on my agenda next. Probably going to test some shaders on the terrain, get the heightmap stuff working so it's not a plain anymore, then I'll do the quadtree. Then after that! I will have gotten to the place that this thread is all about! Raising verts, bitmap brushing, and a comforming cursor =]

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Posted: 15th Jan 2008 07:14
YEAH!!! Congrats! You did it!

Shader FPS? Yup - but hey - everyone's been telling me shader is actually ALWAYS there - we using some back compat stuff...so maybe my card is old enough to be genuine ffp versus emulated. That might explain your fsp ...

Don't envy me. I managed a QuadTree - but I think I'm going to try it the Array way versus the linked list - MUST optimize more more .... I'm also thinking about making work as more than a terrain "cunker" for frustrum culling but have that manage zones also... All STuff in ZONE 12 - Please remove ALL your polys...even the little ones from the Pipe line.. Thank You

Now I have to reread that tutorial because the math wasn't so bad ...maybe I did it wrong LOL.

I basically have boxes in boxes....Hmmm....Boxes in Boxes.... WHY DIDN'T I USE LIT's BOX in BOX? I bet its faster that actual cull! hmmm.... ahhh... ok ... There must be a way to squeak some more free cpu clocks from that.... thinking...anyway its late big day (actually ROUGH DAY not game related at all ) big day though - must sleep.

Congrats! You deserve some success - you earned it!

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Posted: 15th Jan 2008 07:23
Thanks!

Yeah, I'm still getting better FPS on it. And actually, the FPS drops about 20 when I take the screenshot with a program I have. So it's around 100.

I'm going to get some sleep too. Have a good one =]

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Posted: 17th Jan 2008 15:30
Here is mine so far

( Uses LIT's matrix to object )

The problem is that when I start raising vertices to make a hill my FPS drops to around 3...

I allso have a second editor going, but that one is using a matrix for a terrain insted

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Posted: 17th Jan 2008 22:49
Hayer, nice job so far! You've made more progess than me in regards to your brush, I'm definitely being looking to that for an example.

I'm not so sure about using LIT's matrix to object code though. That's not to say his code isn't good, but it seems like a lot more work to get the same result as a memblock mesh. I recommend using a memblock to create a matrix instead of changing a matrix into an object. I understand the shortcut you were trying to make there, but I think it's hurting you a bit. Memblocks are fast, and offer control. Take a look at my code above for example of how to set one up if you need to.

I'm not sure why the fps drops to 3 while you edit it, it does it for me too. Maybe Jason can offer some advice on this.

What I am doing to create very large terrains is to make a 32x32 tile grid and calling that my cookie cutter mesh/limb/object. I then take that mini-matrix and then copy that over and over into a 16x16 matrix of that matrix. So you end up with a 512x512 tiled matrix, divided into 256 32x32 sections.

Right now, the load time is bad... around 20-30 seconds. I'm looking into ways of cutting that down. I think in order to solve this problem I'm going to make the 32x32 larger and the size of the actual matrix larger. Because right now, the part that is slowing it down, is having 256 limbs, each with their own shader... yeahhhhh. lol.

Good job though dude, keep up the good work. To sum up my tips, forget LIT's code and use a memblock, get some camera controls in there to help appreciate your editing more, and add some shadow to your terrain so you can see what your doing... oh and also get that 3 fps problem nailed down. Good luck =]

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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 11:43 Edited at: 19th Jan 2008 15:52
So any news?

Currently started all over again(from scrath) trying to use a memblock matrix and insted of 1 big one use many small ones
So culling will be easier.

Posting the same here as well(Pressed wrong post the first time, so this is some type of double post )

Quote: "Mh-m... Done some searching now, but didn't find what I was lookin' for, so now I'm here

How does a memblock matrix work?
How do I make one, do I store all the positions into one memblock then
memblock -> mesh -> object?
But if I make it a object, then I got to use the
Lock vertexData for blah blah
again?
How do I edit the positions/heights of the matrix(memblock matrix)?"


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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 20:55
Required Reading for Memblock Mesh's/Terrain


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=87105&b=7
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=118418&b=1
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=120618&b=1
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=121427&b=1
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=100645&b=1
http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?m=codebase_view&i=ff622260deaf05fa7890237516f9147f
(Don't forget to download the media with the above link)
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=108704&b=1


See how far you can get with these threads. Try and make a welded 32x32 tile memblock matrix and apply a simple texture to the tiles. If you need help, just ask.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 20:56
Jason, any progress lately man? I haven't had time to work on my editor, as school has got me tied up this week.

I can't wait to get back to it though, onto the next step!

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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 21:11
Um - yes and no... Did you see my DarkGDK "GUI in FREEPASCAL" thread?

I figured I was collecting enough code and stuff it was time to organize some power tools and doing so with crytic arbitrary key presses and stuff... well.. its great for testing, but its time to start putting some things in stone.

In DarkGDK C++ its kind of tricky to get GUI. There is the WINGUI dll, but that means you need to manually position each button etc... and well... with FReePascal Lazarus I can use drag and drop, a mouse to position etc.. instant GUI.

Problem is that inorder to use FreePascal Lazarus(gui) Stuff.. I have to get fancy with controlling threads and "Inter Process" communications.

Basically, DarkGDK (C++) takes ownership of the WinMain (the main dilly for a program) and so does FreePascal Lazarus....

So I ultimately need to make my "GUI" start and run DarkGDK App, and Control it like a remote controlled car via allowing them to talk to each other.

It's not Eloquent but viable for desktop stuff.

I managed to make a DLL that handles this... but I need to do some testing with it... make a DEMO or something.

Meanwhile, I tried to roll out my WebServer and found some spots that still needed work, and in doing I basically trashed an older CGI based version of it all my web sites run on... customers included AHHH... so I had to fix that - 24hours... but the system is up and running and now I think I want to take a stab at fixing my Web Sertver as I REALLY want to drop Apache Entirely!

So - answer? Yes and No to progress!

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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 21:55
I have had some progress on mine

Not good but if you want me to post a "demo" tell me

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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 05:33 Edited at: 21st Jan 2008 05:35
Yeah dude, lets see a demo =]

@Jason: Holy S this quadtree stuff is insane.

I'm looking at that C++ code for quadtrees and foaming at the mouth. There is no way that's gonna happen. I'm interested in this box collision thing you were doing though, what the heck is that about?

I'm trying to decide if I even need a quadtree. Heck, it would be nice, but that code for it isn't that nice... so... not sure.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 12:53
Like I told you .... the tutorial was a little...um.... lacking.

All the right concepts but the transfer of know how to the reader was lacking on how to ACTUALLY pull it off.

I'm currently in a complete Audiere, Ageia PhysX, IrrLicht Research mission - so I won't have the box thing for you just yet. Its not that hard though - I swear ... easier than actually creating the meshes!

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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 15:21
Tought I was going to try IrrLicht.. Currently tryin' to get it to work with Dev-C++ ... Very frustraiting

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Posted: 26th Jan 2008 18:15
Hey guys, no real update as of late with my editor. There are some... major changes for me going on as far time management goes around the house so, besides cutting my loading time and making my editor load x10 faster, nothing to report.

I kind of want to keep this thread going a little longer, so I can actually post what the threads subject was meant to solve. I normally try not to resurrect threads that are getting old, but I know a lot of people will visit this thread in the future and I want to be able to offer them a solution.

How's progress on everyone else's editor/terrain going? Jason? Hayer?

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Programming Major @ Baker.edu-
jason p sage
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Posted: 26th Jan 2008 18:41
@SID - Checking out another Engine - Found one with Frame Rates AMAZINGLY higher - automatic culling and realtime LOD poly optimizations auto-magically just happen - I don't need to write all that myself - plus I can write code for Windows DX8, DX9, OpenGL, Playstation, xBox, Mac and PowerPC with one codebase....

Nuff said... I'm not developing in DB or DarkGDK anymore (jury still out but I think this won't change) unless I want to load a model or maybe test a shader or something.

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Posted: 26th Jan 2008 20:45
What!? Are you serious? Man... You still going to check the forums here Jason? What's this new engine you have found? Do tell

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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jason p sage
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Posted: 27th Jan 2008 00:54
Serious - Yes.
Check Forums Still - Yes - Maybe Less - I'm still a customer
New Engine? Not ethical to divulge.

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Posted: 28th Jan 2008 10:12
Yeah, we don't like to Torque about it here...


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Posted: 28th Jan 2008 16:44
Lol, not torque.

It starts with an I, and sounds german.

I'm probably going to be making a huge switch to another engine next fall, after I've taken a C++ course at college. I've tried learning on my own, but I can't seem to pick up it up. Hopefully a formal class with an instructor I can go to every five seconds will help .

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" -Isaac Newton
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Posted: 28th Jan 2008 21:15
and looking above - I already spilled beans myself - so I am a dare-irrlicht

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