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3 Dimensional Chat / 650 polygons max for a model, enough detail?

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Yskonyn
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Posted: 28th Dec 2007 13:30
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I am looking to get started into 3D modelling, just for fun to be able to add my own models into my DBP projects.
I was wondering if the 650 polygon limit GameSpace Light has will be enough to make sufficiently detailed models (remember I am just starting).Of course low poly models are best to use in DBP anyway, but I have no real idea what 650 poly's mean in relation to a model. Is it really basic or fairly detailed?


Yskonyn - (Ploughing through Hands On DBP Programming Vol. 1)
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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 28th Dec 2007 13:44
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Basic. A Character usually has 1500+ polys. 650 polys will be enough for objects, just not characters or detailed items.

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Venge
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Posted: 28th Dec 2007 14:57 Edited at: 28th Dec 2007 14:57
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How can a program have a 650 polygon limit? That's like a speck compared to some of the stuff I can work with in blender...Like the car in my sig, over 3 million polys when it was done.

Modelled and rendered in Blender. Free software ftw.
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Alucard94
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Posted: 28th Dec 2007 15:13
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Venge, the one with a poly limit is the free version, to get rid of it you most buy the full Gamespace

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hessiess
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Posted: 28th Dec 2007 16:43
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get wings 3D or Blender, both are good modalers and have no poly limits(besides what your computer can handle). you cannot build much with 650 polys.

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Yskonyn
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Posted: 28th Dec 2007 21:12
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Thanks for the info guys.
Blender seems awfully complex, though... ?


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hessiess
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Posted: 28th Dec 2007 22:16
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there are some good blender tutorials here
http://www.blender.org/education-help/video-tutorials/getting-started/
its not that hard once you learn the keyboard short cuts
wings 3D is easy to use, all the tools are in the right click menu

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Yskonyn
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 00:15
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Thanks for the pointer!


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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 01:20
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Quote: "you cannot build much with 650 polys."

I dissagree with that, its very easy to make detailed models with 650 polies.
Of course...depends on what type of model it is supposed to be.
For somewhat smaller vehicles it would be around (just a wild guess) 800 to 1k.
For the avarage day scenery 350 would be more than enough...

For characters...hmm yeah would be possible but i dont recommend it.

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SamHH
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 03:01
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You can make a character thats under 650 polygons, you would need to put a lot of effort into the texture and add a normal map for the best effect, but it is very possible to do.


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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 09:47
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Quote: "You can make a character thats under 650 polygons, you would need to put a lot of effort into the texture and add a normal map for the best effect, but it is very possible to do."

But when you animate it, it would come out really nasty and spikey.

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Yskonyn
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 15:00 Edited at: 29th Dec 2007 15:01
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So to recap: For static objects its no problem, but animating objects need far more (at least organic ones like people)? Is this mainly because of the high polygon areas needed at the joint locations?

I have no idea what amount of polygons is 'standard' so to speak.
Everyone knows how much distance a mile or a km is, depending on location, but poly's don't tell me anything.

Does anyone have an average polycount example for a few objects?
For example: Characters, Weapons, Vehicles, Static Objects like trashcans in levels and such?

Oh and what 3D package would you suggest to get started with (have in mind that it has to be imported into DBP).


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Duplex
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 15:17
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Milkshape, it's cheap and extremily easy to use.

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hessiess
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 16:40
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Characters: normally 3k+ triangles now
Weapons: not sure probably <1000
Vehicles: probaly around 2k now, less would be very angular
Static Objects like trashcans: depends on how close you will get to it and the complexity of the object, between 500 and 3k
levels: unknown, probaly 200-300k total, but you will only ever see bits of it at any time.

as long as the program exports .x it can be used in dbp

remember curves eat polys, an angular curve can destroy any illusion of realism you manage to acheve

now even cheep computers are capable of running 100K+ triangles in real-time with some pixel shades, if you only have for example 20k polys on screen at any time you will be serially underruning the hardware.

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Yskonyn
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 17:27
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I once setup a Blender thread when blender finally introduced the ability to export to .X format (IIRC; use search), but there were still many problems, especially with animation I am am correct.
How's Blender now for using with DBP?

hessies, I see you're a Blender user. Blender is a complete modelling and animation package, right? How's exporting to DBP currently? Do animations get exported to DBP correctly as well?
Thanks!


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hessiess
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 17:38
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the exporter works fine with static objects(most of the time), but i have been unable to export animation correctly with wated vertacies, short of asigning every vertex to a bone, waights are the only way to get usable deformations.
i get around the exporter problem by exporting to obj and converting to x with wings 3D.I haven't found a way to export animations yet

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wind27382
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 18:24
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character models are anywhere between 3k to 6k now days. in fact i usually model my characters around 5k. but if your just trying to learn a product you should probably try max

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Yskonyn
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 18:34
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thanks hessies. How would one go about animating the models then?

wind, max as in 3dsmax? Do you know what that package costs?!
I am just a hobbyist on a tight budget, mate!
So it has to be either free or cheap if I am going to use it!


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hessiess
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 18:35
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Quote: "but if your just trying to learn a product you should probably try max"


slow, horrid interface, too expensive

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AndrewT
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 19:32 Edited at: 29th Dec 2007 19:32
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Blizzard can make characters with under 650 polys...

asdsdfaghkdlgahdfkj.
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JimB
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Posted: 29th Dec 2007 19:43
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GameSpace 1.6 for $89 anyone?
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=120850&b=3
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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 30th Dec 2007 01:05
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Quote: "Static Objects like trashcans: depends on how close you will get to it and the complexity of the object, between 500 and 3k"

Thats still pretty big for static objects...
I am sure if you would google...you would find lots of models which are under the 500 and still look great.
And 3k, dont know for what model that is? probably a character or a room with scenery attached.

Quote: "but if your just trying to learn a product you should probably try max"
Quote: "slow, horrid interface, too expensive"

Thats why it is used mostly for commercial uses.

Quote: "Blizzard can make characters with under 650 polys..."

True, and they still look good!

For static objects (scenery etc) could be from 100 to 500.

For bigger objects and objects that need to blink out of the others could be around 600 to 1,5k.

For characters like AndrewT said 600 to 650...(blizzard style)
But most likely from 1k to 6k or maybe even higher.

For weapons...never tried to make one so i honestly dont know...but i would guess around the 1k to 2k.

Vehicles would be around the 1,5k to 2,5k...

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dark coder
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Posted: 30th Dec 2007 06:21
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If you look at mod sites for various games you will often see a recommended tri count list for various types of objects. The Battlefield game series from what I recall has a 10k limit for characters, 3-6k for first person weapons, 4-8-10k on vehicles depending on size. However you can't really say any number is right for a certain object as every game is different. When I model things I seldom care about the tri count as I know how many polys per set area I'm aiming for, if it ends up too high then I can always optimize afterwards. But if your game has support for LOD meshes and you actually make them then using the aforementioned guidelines shouldn't be an issue.

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DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 30th Dec 2007 10:34
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What I did when I used GameSpace Light is I would model half of the character and then I would take it into a free program like wings3d and mirror the model that way I would get a 1.2k poly model which was enough for me.

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Cheese Cake
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Posted: 30th Dec 2007 14:04 Edited at: 30th Dec 2007 14:05
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Quote: "What I did when I used GameSpace Light is I would model half of the character and then I would take it into a free program like wings3d and mirror the model that way I would get a 1.2k poly model which was enough for me."

You know...thats actually a really good idea!

Yskonyn...if you are already used with gamespace...than if i were you i should use this method.
Cause basically you can create lots of scenery, vehicles and so one.
With 650 poly as limit.

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Yskonyn
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Posted: 30th Dec 2007 15:28 Edited at: 30th Dec 2007 15:30
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No I am not used to GameSpace, in fact, I am not used to any 3D modeling I have fooled around a bit in GameSpace Light before and the interface appealed to me very much.

The tip to make half of a model and then mirror it in a free package like Wings3D is a very good one!

The newyears offer of GameSpace 1.6 is one to hardly miss out on as well, don't you think?

DBPROgamer what are you using now? You said 'when I used GameSpace', suggesting that you now use something else?


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DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 1st Jan 2008 13:53
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Quote: "The tip to make half of a model and then mirror it in a free package like Wings3D is a very good one!"


Quote: "You know...thats actually a really good idea!"

What do ya know I had a good idea


Quote: "DBPROgamer what are you using now? You said 'when I used GameSpace', suggesting that you now use something else?"


Well currently im using Blender. I really like GameSpace and would buy it if I could but I don't have the money. The reason I switched to Blender is because I want to make some really high poly terrains and they would not be semetrical so in GameSpace Light I would only get to use 650 polys, but I do use GameSpace still for alot of stuff I'm just trying to get used to using blender because I will eventualy need more then even 1.2k polys. But if you have the money for GameSpace then I would defenitly recommend you to buy it.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 1st Jan 2008 16:53
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You should just save yourself the time and cost of advil, and use Wings .

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Brain111
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Posted: 1st Jan 2008 19:16
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It's all in the textures, man...

But in all seriousness, <650 polys is ridiculous. At some point, you're going to need to make something more than that, and DarkBasic can definitely handle it. I recommend Blender.

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Insanity Complex
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 03:31
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I have to agree with RUCCUS, wings is ftw ^.^


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DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 06:22
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Well I just started using Wings3D, and you might not need to buy GameSpace.

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Yskonyn
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 10:05 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 10:22
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too late!


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John H
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 08:38
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NextGen humanoid models sit at about 7000-8000 polygons, however I dont know how well DBP would handle these types of models. For anything industry standard though, 1500 is no where near enough.

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tyrano man
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Posted: 9th Jan 2008 18:05
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Quote: "GameSpace 1.6 for $89 anyone?"

Anoying it cost me $200 when i got it and that was in a sale! It was ussually $250 at the time.

But the low price means that GS 2.0 might nearly be upon us.
*Jumps for joy*
*looks in wallet*
*stops jumping*

Tyrano

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