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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / DarkBASIC Newsletter Issue 6

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Witch Bomber
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 02:10
Quote: "who wants to take bets as to when erm 'upgrades' are no longer free."

For that very reason you should be glad there are still bugs in DBPro. It means we get the upgrades for free

If you can't beat him, use a stick;
If you still can't beat him, use a brick;
If you still can't beat him, don't call him a prick!
xmen
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 03:05
Anyone had a tandy 64k 16 colour computer
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 03:31
the current x86 processors are MISC not CISC and going RISC wouldn't really achieve anything.

when i have time later i'll go into the whole deal between MISC & RISC processors ... but there is a tradeoff, and MAJOR when you go RISC - i wouldn't be able to produce 7th Day Project on just a 2.0Ghz Processor if it were a RISC, don't get me wrong they do thier job well ... but i like my 16 instruction sets per cycle that a 32Bit x86 gives me - and the 32 that an ia64 gives me

Windows doesn't normally let you access these so programs are only capable of running at a max 10% of the processors capacity unless you specifically write for them to use more (which isn't good when your not using a program in a more exclusive mode) not even DirectX uses 100% of the Processor, only 100% of a single processor thread.
There are current 8 Threads per 32bit Core Processor, 16 within the new IA64 processors

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
bitJericho
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 04:18
xmen said:
Quote: "Anyone had a tandy 64k 16 colour computer"


nope... i had a 128k CoCo 2 with Extended Color Basic

The 3D Modeler's Group : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3dModeler/
The Unofficial DB Software Group : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dbsgroup/
MrTAToad
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 11:20
MISC not CISC
Same difference - they're not RISC

The main problem with RISC is somethings are harder to do (as you have fewer instructions), and they take a lot more work to design.
However, these are mere slight problems - RISC should be faster, more efficient and would probably be easier to code for.

With the ARM Processor, for example, you can compare and branch in one instruction which, you can't do on the x86 processors (as far as I know - never got into Assembly on these processors).

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 16:01
Quote: "MISC not CISC
Same difference - they're not RISC"


don't let a CPU Techy hear you say that
M stands for Multiple
C stands for Constant
R stands for Reduced

there is a very very large difference between them, the whole reason x86's run on a MISC not a RISC based processor setup is because that RISC just cannot handle the pure large amounts of data that a MISC can.

You have only 1 instruciton set per cycle, if that wasn't enough you also have to program directly to the processors setup.
They may appear far more power, but this means you cannot expand on thier capabilities even slightly using a better interface - a RISC is a WYSIWYG processor.

Imagine it that a RISC processor is a F1 car & MISC is a Family Car ... although yeah the drag will seriously outperform the family car on a race course like donnington, but how about a car chase through the backstreets of London - how well would you expect it to perform?

Risc processors are bloody good, as long as you keep them within thier abilities - soon as your out of that, then the MISC processor shines
I mean just think about why there are no 3D Programs & RenderFarms on the Acorn - why the MISC 68k of the Amiga was chosen instead.
They both could use C so wasn't a case of being harder to program, its just because the thing can't handle the setup as well.

Just think the Consoles are nice fast power machines, but then what exactly do they have to multi-task? how many word processors do you see on them? How many games do you see on the Playstation & GameCube which slowdown noticeably when collision & dynamics are being heavily calculated? (Several come to mind right away)

No doubt the next generation of RISC processors will have solutions to this, the fact remains that they're not specifically capable of the tasks and it shows as PC's 1/4 of thier speed are capable of producing far quicker dynamics engines

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 16:21 Edited at: 27th Jun 2003 16:39
The main reason there were no Renderfarms for Acorn was that there was just no software for it (probably noone thought of it) - there were plenty of 3D design/animation packages, and 3D games for it though. The RiscPC could certainly have cope, and probably the A3010 upwards could have as well (as long as you had a hard drive).

Even so, the Intel processors use microcode to actually run the machine code - unless they've recently changed it. They should still be regard as CISC because its a Complex Instruction Set Computer chip, ie there are a lot of instructions (most of which aren't needed).

The demise of computer companies is a very interesting subject, I find.

The whole idea behind RISC is to reduce the number of instructions, making the whole processor quicker, and cheaper (in the long run) to make. It could easily copy with anything that the CISC processor could, the only difference is that you need a few more instructions...

By the way, at one point Acorn had devised an architecture that removed the need for a system timer to regulate the instructions. Unfortunately that went shortly before they gave up on their computers.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 18:06
perhaps but one fact you can't deny is that a MISC achitecture of the x86 series allows them process ALOT more data per second.
The idea behind the Risc is to Reduce the number of instructions sent therefore speeding up calculation.

But look at Karma's work on the Playstation2 running at the same speed as an early Pentium2 - the P2 can run a far more defined calculation, more of them and make the entire dynamics run alot more complex.
For matricies on the PS2 you have to make sure you work to sets of only 128x128 maximum else it takes an entire extra second to calculate the data - which would reduce the TTL to a point where it wouldn't be realtime.

i mean the PS2 EEPU, GC ArmCPU & GeForce GPU can emulate and achieve whatever an x86 processor can - however they cannot achieve the same results as quickly without rewriting them to specifically utilise thier setup. Which oftenly is a pain in the ass to do with such limited instruction sets at your disposal.

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 18:45 Edited at: 27th Jun 2003 18:54
For some mathematical calculations, then yes, it is a pain (SIN, COS, TAN etc). However with a mixture of calculations and lookup tables, then your probably going to get a speed similair to or even exceeding CISC calulcations...
The ARM processor had the ability to load up to 15/16 registers (R0-R14/R15 - cant remember if R15 was a general purpose register or not now )with data at the same time - you could then stick these somewhere (again 15 registers at a time).
The only problem with RISC computers (and its only a small problem) is that code had to be 4 byte aligned. With data, of course it didn't matter if it was or not - you would just take a small speed hit if it wasn't.

Dont forget the PS2 processors are defined by the price of the whole machine - they're not exactly state of the art...

Anyway, isn't this becoming a bit off topic again ?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 20:21
lol i don't mind it being off topic
the PS2 Processors might not be, however the GeForceFX certainly are probably the fastest and most SOTA Risc's around - but even they have limitations when it comes to calculations.

i think it might have something to do with the number of registers and such ... i don't know how many registers and such the new 6x86, 7x86, 8x86 processors have ... infact most of my technical knowlage on x86 processors stops at the 486 w/Writech family.

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 20:31
I wonder if the new ones still have the same limited number of registers ?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 20:35
i hope not ... 486's only had 32, thats bugger all for 8 instruction set channels lol

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 21:40
Umm the Intel processors have 4 general registers (EAX EBX ECX EDX), which can be split into (4 16-bit registers AX BX CX DX or 8 8-bit registers AH AL BH BL CH CL DH DL). Stupid way of doing it, but there you go.
There are 6 segment registers, which brings it to around 10 registersm 6 of which aren't general purpose. There are also some index and pointer registers, all of which make the poor old Intel processor rather inefficient.

With any luck the new processors will get rid of this silly layout and just have a flat set of, say :

EAX - EZX - 26 General purpose registers (even 26 isn't really enough - at least 32 will be better)
PC - Program counter register
SS - Stack register.

Thats all thats needed - in one stroke the architecture will have been improved slightly, plus you prevent legacy software from running.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 22:36
hmm ...

General Purpose Registers
AX - Accumulator
BX - Base Address
CX - Count
DX - Data

SI - Source Index
DI - Desdination Index
BP - Base Pointer
SP - Stack Pointer

H=High (8Bit) L=Low (4Bit)
AX - AH | AL
BX - BH | BL
CX - CH | CL
DX - DH | DL

// limited to 64k
CS - Code Segment
DS - Data Segment
ES - Extra Segment
SS - Stack Segment

IP - Instruction Pointer

//2x86 legacy registers // used to access more than conventional ram
MSW - Machine Status Word
GDTR - Global Descripter Table
LDTR - Local Descripter Table
IDTR - Interupt Descripter Table
TR - Task

//3x86 & 4x86
32bit extensions of current registers
EAX, EBX, ECX, EDX
ESI, EDI, EBP, ESP

// E-Flags for Debugging
RF - Resume (debugging)
VM - Virtual Mode (emulates 8x86)
CR0 - Control Register (quit program)
CR1-3 ... Enable/Disable/Operation (for 4x86)

// Segemented System
CS - Count
DS - Data
ES - Extra
FS - Force
GS - Get
SS - Stack


feel free to count the number of registers

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 27th Jun 2003 22:48 Edited at: 27th Jun 2003 22:49
I didn't bother to include those that aren't usually used...

Besides AH,AL/AX are part of EAX, so it can only really count as one (as they aren't seperate and unique).

Anyway, you must agree that its a pretty inefficient system.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 00:18
yeah kinda ineffcient, but then look at the OS that was based around it ... DOS is so inefficient its embarrasing.

and i know that AH, AL, AX all make up EAX if you want to look at it like that though

byte, word, dword are all unsigned integer values ... but they're still counted as seperate values on thier own - just a matter of how you look at it (especially with the DH, DL, DX, EDX set lol)

the whole setup is very logical, and it does leave alot of room to be used however you like ... probably just the tradeoff you have to make. But i think they should update the setup for new CPUs and then use a wrapper for legacy means, as the 386/486 added the VM which allowed legacy of the 8086 processor
and they could always also be added as extended registers rather than core

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 00:33
To be honest, they should dump all pretence of backwards compatability, and start afresh.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
grandpa
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 15:09
getting back on topic, maybe they should be called Patches until DBpro is ronsealed (ie does exactly what it says on the tin)
then they could be called Updates.
after nearly a year, its still hopelessly flawed, as the lack of ANY professional games/apps shows. Nobobdy should be asked to wait a year for a fully working product. (not even evil,shoddy M$ take that long to implement features advertised on the windows box)

and could the kids at the back stop using the Big boy words isnt this a family forum

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 15:11
http://developer.intel.com/design/pentiumii/manuals/243191.htm

check the pdf there out... i never knew there were so many op commanded added with the Pentium2 - its just mind boggling!

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 15:24
And you wonder why I called it a CISC processor...

As for the state of DBPro - we've been through that before - see the topic in the RGT forums. I think its pretty stable (and good now).

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 15:40
yeah but the design is still for multiple instructions at the same time rather than a single complex instruction

i guess you could call its a MmCISC (Multiple miniComplex Instruction Set Chip) lol .. or something just as ridiculous.
although i like the idea of dropping back comptibility, i don't like the idea of using an emulator just to play all of the games i love - plus it would mean the whole of Microsoft's languages would have to be totally rewritten - i really don't like the idea of having technology and then having an OS and Language that can run on it at the same level as we're at now comming along a few years later.

i think DBP is fairly stable, but there are still alot of very very deeply annoying bugs ... hopefully U5 will squish most, but at this point i'm not going to hold my breath on that due to the complete engine overhaul to Dx9 (such little difference is gonna mean bugs are gonna sneak in more unnoticeable)

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 16:33
Pretty much agree there. What on earth is that big spider thing ?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 16:50
Dark Pikachu you don't like it?

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 17:34
You do like Manga dont you !?

Its... weird...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 19:08
yup... but alot of it makes you think, well the ones i like do

Ghost in the Shell, Patlabour, Evangelion, Perfect Blue, etc...
I can't wait though - only 8months to go then Ghost in the Shell : Innocence is released

and right now i'm downloading the series of it called Stand Alone Complex from my mate in japan. No doubt i'll watch them again translated and they'll probably loose alot of thier meaning, but still its a very exciting year for me with so much of my favourite Animé of all time.
So many hidden meanings its cool

and atleast it all does make sense, like on a thinking level ... thats headf**k thing on SciFi is just plain out'n'out freaky.

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 19:42
They used to show some weird Manga program on C4 around 7 years ago - haven't since then though...

I much prefer the stylings of Patrick McGoohan in The Prisoner myself.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 20:34
lol i don't remember the C4 one, but BBC2 used to have the latest Manga in the early 90s.

First time i ever saw Akira was in 1989 when i was first shown outside of Japan - was the first manga i ever saw, was on at midnight and my dad let me stay up specially so i could see it ... wasn't even traslated just subtitled - it was probably the most awesome thing i though i'd ever seen, nothing topped that until Ghost in the Shell in '95 ... i got the video the day it was released (they weren't so picky about selling 18's and such to kids in Virgin back then) - got it home and called my mate Alex who was just as huge a fan as me (^_^)

i know that i've been a big DBZ fan, but i'll gladly miss DBZ anyday - i don't think i've ever skipped a showing of Ghost in the Shell that i've known was on.
They show it alot in the cinema's in texas now on the offdays ... but something about US cinemas just don't feel right to me, they feel more like threatures than cinema's (guess it comes from growing up around Warner Village which just arn't the same here )

my ambition in life is to have enough cash to build my own private cinema - nothing fancy just like a few couches with a premier size screen ... kick back and put on ALL of my favourite animé
a very sad ambition, but atleast i have a dream lol

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 03:29
As I mentioned before, I'm not a fan of Japanese animation (whether its Manga or not - the animation (or lack thereof) for Pokemon is enough to put anyone off).

If you haven't seen The Prisoner, then you should do - been to Portmerion (where it was filmed) and missed the yearly convention by a few days, I think...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 13:43
i've seen The Prisoner... but i'm not exactly a fan, its more my dads kinda thing (^_^)
guess its comes from two totally different personalities really.

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 14:17
Considering Patrick McGoohan didn't like violence - some of the episodes could get very violent...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
ICERGB
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 13:45 Edited at: 19th Jul 2003 14:11
Dark Basic Newsletter: Issue 7



easy fix
Steve Fash
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Posted: 19th Jul 2003 17:16
Lol @ Hamish-can't wait for the feedback from the next newsletter

For game/demo music for YOUR PC and GP32 productions visit:-www.futuredevelopments.org.uk

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