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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Making a program work on a Console system

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MrFantastic
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 07:09
Hi there, i'm very new with this DB stuff. so please bare with me.

I'm making a little game for my nephew, sort of a MArio brothers clone...

I was wondering if there is any way to make the Executable work on a XBOX console system if I burn the program on to a CD? I figured, since the XBOX is practically a small PC in it's self (with similar DX capabiliteis) Do i need some sort of converter? is.. this even remotley possible?

any help would be appreciated.
abloke
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 08:06
no it isn't possible.
For developing games for XBox,PS2,GameCube,you need to be a proffesional development company,i.e publishing deal,access to the console development SDK-Kits.

These kits aren't given out to anyone,which basiclly excludes the indie game developer/small engine developers.

Hope that helps with your question.

Rob K
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 11:34 Edited at: 21st Jun 2003 11:34
Apparently it is possible to run Windows 2000 as a VM on Linux on XBOX. That is the only option I can think of.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
Bighead
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 20:00
abloke
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Posted: 21st Jun 2003 22:57
These posts might give you a better understanding of what i'm talking about:

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=154396

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=144078

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=111099

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=108819

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=103847

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 04:49
Quote: "These kits aren't given out to anyone,which basiclly excludes the indie game developer/small engine developers"


they're rampantly pirated from the smaller professional development houses... just type in something like XBox DDK to Kazaa and you'll get a good few hits - most of which i can guarentee you are the official kits. The only problem is that you also require a special XBox just to develop without worrying about the country you in (which you can get chips for standard boxes) ... Once the title is finished a publisher will then use a legitimate version.

Mircosoft wont' care that you've used a pirated version of the DDK unless you try to retail yourself - as long as they make money from you then they overlook alot of "not quite legal" activities.
Especially if the title is a hit, they will generally buy you up for a pittance and make alot of money from you.
(there was a recent case of a Texas based development house doing this but it could never be officially proven, we all know they did it though its not like they made a big secret of it during development)

It's like 3D Packages, until your actually making money from programs like Softimage XSI or Alias|Wavefront Maya - they will generall just turn a blind eye to the piracy because those who do it oftenly do because they can't afford it so there is no actual lost revenue, and the company would loose more in a court battle to prove that it was a pirate copy and in an individuals hands than they would actually win.
Sure the End-User Pirate would be jailed, but not one gains anything - it doesn't stop piracy because EndUsers just are using the software they oftenly don't either a)pay for it or b)know howto actually pirate the software without a tool.

All they loose is a potencial customer once they get good enough to make money and at the end of the day that is what most of the industry is all about, money!

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
abloke
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 08:35
[quote]
they're rampantly pirated from the smaller professional development houses... just type in something like XBox DDK to Kazaa and you'll get a good few hits -

most of which i can guarentee you are the official kits. The only problem is that you also require a special XBox just to develop without worrying about the country you in (which you can get chips for standard boxes) ... Once the title is finished a publisher will then use a legitimate version.

Raven,your opinion about this tells me you are 'assuming'too much.

I worked for 2 years at Criterion Software,and can tell you that they WILL fully prosecute ANY company,that illegally distrubutes ANY part of their Kits.
(I am also sure that Microsoft and others have the same view also).

I can also tell you that they are aware of part of an illigal 'kit' being posted to a 'certain' newsgroup recently,and are also aware of the individuals involved.

[quote]
(there was a recent case of a Texas based development house doing this but it could never be officially proven, we all know they did it though its not like they made a big secret of it during development)

Please could you give me more information about this.

[quote]
It's like 3D Packages, until your actually making money from programs like Softimage XSI or Alias|Wavefront Maya - they will generall just turn a blind eye to the piracy because those who do it oftenly do because they can't afford it so there is no actual lost revenue, and the company would loose more in a court battle to prove that it was a pirate copy and in an individuals hands than they would actually win.

again,i disagree with your view on piracy.
I'm sure the Dark-Basic developers (in regard to their software) wouldn't agree with you either.

New methods of dealing with piracy(within the game industry anyway,are being stepped up in the near future,that should make illigal copying a lot harder.

BTW,'Kazza' are currently being taken to court again.
Lets hope this time they get what they deserve.

What you are suggesting,would be until you make revenue,it is ok to use a pirated version of Dark Basic Pro?.And in the off-chance that you made a sellable game with it,as long as you bought a legal version this would be acceptable? This could be taken to the extreme with any kind of product.You wouldn't walk into a shoe store,and expect to walk around in their most expesive pair of shoes for 2 months,then after 2 months decide that you don't want to buy them,or cannot afford them.

The internet/file sharing has done a lot of damage to developers,the music industry/the game and movie industry.

At the end of the day,i really think i am the last person you should be discussing 'Pirate' software with.

Dave J
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 09:49
I highly doubt Kazaa or any other P2P program will lose a court battle anytime soon. All they have to do is claim that their program was created for legal uses (such as distributing personally created artwork or files) and that they state in their EULA that it can't be used for anything illegal and the fact that their users do use it ilegally has nothing to do with them and they can't be held liable.

It's all perfectly legal what Kazaa is doing, it's the users that are in the wrong. Kazaa aren't supplying the pirated files and they can't take the blame.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Frogger_85
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 09:53
Actully For Programming on Xbox right when it came out they encourages Programmers to program games for there console the SDK kit was actully passed out to anyone willing to try im sure you can still get a hold of it (im sure I still got it around here somewhere if I find it i give ya a yell)

Matt Schindler
(many members dont no me im been here since the beginning)
President Of Niraw Corporation

abloke
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 10:15
Exeat:
isn't that like saying i run a public house,i have a full house every night...even though i have a record for 'drug dealers' using my property for dealing,and been closed down twice,honestly...i didn't know what they was doing?

The laws can only be manipulated so many times.
This includes individuals sharing 'child pornography' and a lot more.
So,again,i say do not 'assume' anything."There is always more than one way to skin a cat."

Frogger_85
im sure you can still get a hold of it (im sure I still got it around here somewhere if I find it i give ya a yell)

please do.

Dave J
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 12:33
Quote: "Exeat:
isn't that like saying i run a public house,i have a full house every night...even though i have a record for 'drug dealers' using my property for dealing,and been closed down twice,honestly...i didn't know what they was doing?
"


Yes, that's right. And it's why many people can get away with a lot of things they shouldn't be able to.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 12:53
Sorry i can't give you any information about the Texas company other than it is based in Southern Texas and it has a staff of 25 people ... and i'm not even sure if i'm really allowed to say that much.

As for what Exeat said about Kazaa's policy this is completely true, their License prevents them from actually being held accountable for piracy, and they have active means for destorying software which is reported as piracy. However it is down the members computers themselves to take the actual blame. I doubt anyone no matter how large they are can win against them - a good example would be that Microsoft took them to court 2years ago about the leak of XP and Microsoft lost BADLY.
However alot of attention was diverted from such news by the whole SunJava affair (the whole industry is like a bad soap opera).

Don't take what i said to be my views on piracy at all, trust me i'm very very very far from for it - but i'm saying that the bigger fish just don't bother going after individuals anymore unless they know it will result in not going to court. But even a Cease&Desist Order costs a good few bucks ($395 last time i had one written up and i have a pretty cheap laywer compared to most companies)
About 3-4months ago i hardly would believe that the larger companies would act in such a mannor either, however i have done alot of research and i have also been in contact recently with alot of companies that would be carrying the software protection.

Although yes means of preventing pirates is increasing everyday, the fact of the matter is that the cost of producing these compared to the timeframe of them being cracked is getting smaller and smaller ... alot of companies (Discreet a good example) decide to stick with old protection systems which they know have been cracked and there is a slight expectation of piracy - however as i said, these people oftenly can't afford the software anyways and as such it is let slip because at the end of the day this is ALL about money for the bigger companies.

you want another good example of this... Nintendo has such down almost everysingle Emulator Developer over the internet, as most encouraged the piracy of thier games and software making money from adverts, pay-as-you-go Sites, etc... however one Emulator which has stood the test of time is Project64, because they have made the emulator opensource GPL & they do not make any money in any fashion.
Nintendo COULD shut them down with a simple Cease&Desist and they do know about this emulator as it is one of the highest profile emulators around - yet they haven't. Because unlike the other companies they wouldn't make any money from doing such nor would they save any.

Mircosoft are another company who look at the bigger financial picture rather than personal claims, if your pirate Window / Office / Visual Studio they will come down on you like a tonne of bricks ... however if your simply tinkering with thier DDK they don't touch you - CXBX would be a good example of that. Everyone knows they have a pirated version of the DDK and Microsoft knows about what they're doing to, but they've not been shutdown yet.

unfortunately this is how the world works when your a corporation rather than a company - you only bite if you know you will get a meal out of it.
And unfortunately its this lack of example making which means that pirateers get an ever more better and better grasp.

Atleast one good think about Kazaa is the fact that the pirated software isn't Warez, no one profits from what is going on unlike someone on the street who sells you it or these warez sites that make you download a dialer or something.
So although yeah these people are nicking the software atleast no drug dealer / porn racket / terrorist group / etc... is making any money from it.

there is a definate lack of morals as soon as a company shifts up the food chain, sickening, but as long as they turn a profit.
you wanna see a sick use of this, Funimation will shut down everysingle project that involve any cartoons they serve within the US & Canada (DB/DBZ for example) because they're not making any profit from it ... anyone remember BidForPower being shutdown, they had to resdesign ALL of the media involved it was just stupid.

I know that they were breaking the license but i bet you that Funimation didn't even check it out ... Something i've come to admire about LucasArts is the way they will checkout a game and its development before they decide to either give i the official thumbs up or shut it down - they also give a reason, its not a case of waking up one morning to see you've been sent a letter telling you to pack it in or be sued.
Alot of companies now are just in it for pure profit and it makes me out&out sick ... so much is lost from everything and the shallowness of the industry is showing from poor movie related games, sequal after sequal as well as a barrage of just extremely piss poor titles on the market which are all over priced for what they are!

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 13:38
Anything which is OSS is pretty hard to stop. For example, Ninty managed to keep UltraHLE down, until the source got "leaked" to the web. That is the same reason why Microsoft cannot put Linux down - there is nothing for the lawyers / business folk to aim for.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
abloke
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 14:35
[quote]
Yes, that's right. And it's why many people can get away with a lot of things they shouldn't be able to.

For a while,yes.Then they are caught and prosecuted.
There are a lot of genuine adults and kids that like to share files.(not just cracked software,games,pirated DVD movies and porn.)

There are also groups or individuals,using the internet for their criminal activities,some minor,some very serious indeed.

You obviously understand(or know the type of things i'm refering to,that are much more serious than the others).

by carrying severe penalties,and stricter guidlines that should be met,more monitoring(or investigation into crimes that are conducted via the internet),and showing that 'Crime' is still crime,and they can be caught and prosecuted just the same,it will give a better chance to lessen it.

I'm sure if you have young children,you would want to make sure the material they are downloading is suitable for them.

Raven,you raise some interesting points.
However,i think we should leave this discussion here.

MiniMark
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 18:03
Getting back to the post . I might be wrong but I am pretty sure if you contact microsoft about the ddk and state you are a small time developer most these companies will have an agreement that for a free or drastically reduced priced version, that if anything is sold commercialy they get a large percentage of the profit. Probably doesnt help you but is worth a try..... Just dont release anything.

Build A Bridge, then get OVER IT...
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enablerbr
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2003 18:20
currently the xbox homebrew scene is in the process of developing a xdk which contains no M$ xbox code. though this is still in it's early days. yet even when this homebrew xdk is made only users with modchips would be able to play a game with it.
as for the offical xdk, if you could get your hands on it. you could ( maybe, as far as i know) only legally distribute the source code of your work but not any compiled works. yet again only modchip users could play it.
of course M$ only want people who develope games for the xbox. so if you feal the game is good enough. you could try and approach one of the current offically liecensed companys.

Dave J
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2003 08:27
Quote: "
For a while,yes.Then they are caught and prosecuted.
There are a lot of genuine adults and kids that like to share files.(not just cracked software,games,pirated DVD movies and porn.)

There are also groups or individuals,using the internet for their criminal activities,some minor,some very serious indeed.

You obviously understand(or know the type of things i'm refering to,that are much more serious than the others).

by carrying severe penalties,and stricter guidlines that should be met,more monitoring(or investigation into crimes that are conducted via the internet),and showing that 'Crime' is still crime,and they can be caught and prosecuted just the same,it will give a better chance to lessen it.

I'm sure if you have young children,you would want to make sure the material they are downloading is suitable for them.
"


Yeah, it's true that it's still a crime but it's not Kazaa committing the crime, they're more just a hub for it. It's like if someone murdered another person with an axe, the axe wasn't meant for killing, it was meant for chopping wood and so the producers of it aren't at fault. Just because they created something that can be used for crime doesn't mean they should go to jail. I agree that Kazaa is still in the wrong but sadly it's all they need to hold up in court.

On a different note, internet crimes are extremely hard to prosecute. The laws for the internet differ from country to country and although it may be illegal to distribute porn to minors in America, it may not be illegal somewhere else.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 01:25
Kazaa state all over their site and software that they don't encorage sharing of illegal or copyrighted material with it. However they also state they've had over 200 Million downloads, and I'm sure they aren't under the impression that anything over 0/1% of people using it are 100% genuinely sharing and downloading legal things.

Personally I mostly download music, TV programs and films that you can't buy in the shops, so therefore by my standards I don't feel guilty, no one is out of pocket as the material isn't for sale anywhere anyways - however this is still strictly illegal as I don't own the copyrights to such things.

Whilst I don't necessarily aggre with actual piracy, I don't feel its going to be the downfall of the industry, any more than tape to tape copy decks were the downfall of the music and computer industries in the mid 80s. And if people are going to download music, dvds or software illegally, I'd rather they do that than buy copied CDs from a market stall selling cds imported from the middle east funding terrorism and drug crimes

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes, They got them hoppy legs & twitchy little noses,
And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
SkYnEt
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 11:05
http://sourceforge.net/projects/openxdk/

This has a legal SDK for the XBOX. Its OpenDK

Compaq Presario 5127SR | D3D Accellerator
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 18:46
Quote: "New methods of dealing with piracy(within the game industry anyway,are being stepped up in the near future,that should make illigal copying a lot harder."


ROFL. I'll give it 30 minutes, and that's only to allow for hackers using conventional 56k modems to shadow their IP, else i'de give it 5.

Pneumatic Dryll
MrTAToad
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 19:28 Edited at: 24th Jun 2003 19:28
New methods of dealing with piracy(within the game industry anyway,are being stepped up in the near future,that should make illigal copying a lot harder.

The only thing that could slow it down is Palladium, and thats not due for a couple of years.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Blanka
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Posted: 24th Jun 2003 20:57
http://www.epic.org/privacy/consumer/microsoft/palladium.html
the_winch
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 01:01
So explain to me why I would buy a computer with that built in.
malcom2073
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 05:54
You wont. It'll never get totally up and running. People wont buy the OS. Not enough really. Besides, I give them one week before they have a hack for it. Otherwise I'll just buy noname hardware without the chip installed and all.

abloke
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 09:03
<Grin> it seems there's a lot of Kazza users here.
Exeat: You really are a poo-poo dyper baby aren't you? -*Joke*-
(my 6 year old son called his friend that,the other day after hearing it on Little Bill,Lol).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It's like if someone murdered another person with an axe, the axe wasn't meant for killing, it was meant for chopping wood and so the producers of it aren't at fault. Just because they created something that can be used for crime doesn't mean they should go to jail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
haha...that is a funny way of putting it.
But what if the makers of the 'AXE' KNEW some maniac wanted to use their invention to cut off someone else's head,then gave him the axe
to do it?

or if a guy just robbed a bank,and was going to make his getaway on foot,then some stranger picked him up outside in a Volkswagon Beetle,
who would you blame? the stranger?,or the volkswagon beetle?

I say the VW beetle...most definately.-> [b]) <-

and can you also give me your opinion on this article please?
http://funnies.paco.to/davidWebster.html

Seriously,thanks for the 'entertaining' discussion Guys.
it gave me a lot of laughs!

Dave J
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 10:08 Edited at: 25th Jun 2003 10:09
What are you talking about?

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
abloke
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Posted: 25th Jun 2003 11:59
[quote]
What are you talking about?




LOL

The humour on the internet differs from country to country and although it may be funny in America, it may not be funny somewhere else.

Ashlocke
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 02:24
Quote: "or if a guy just robbed a bank,and was going to make his getaway on foot,then some stranger picked him up outside in a Volkswagon Beetle,
who would you blame? the stranger?,or the volkswagon beetle?

I say the VW beetle...most definately.-> ) <-"


... wth

Unless the person who *Graciously* picked up the known bank robber was Volkswagen CEO Ferdinand Piƫch, how could you possibly blame the car manufactures? What kind of logic is that?=\ It would most definitely be the robber, NOT the getaway vehicle.

I suppose if you were taking legal action you'd go after the people who manufactured the axes.

Anyway it's shower time. 10th grade summer school sux0rs.

abloke
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 16:32
You know when you been Tangoed!
[/img]http://www.londonskaters.com/gallery/data/506/2windup.jpg?7875

Mentor
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 17:04
I must ring BT and tell them they are liable for obscene phonecalls and cold calling salespersons stressing people out, by some of the logic demonstrated here, BT (British telecom) are providing a means for people to ring and annoy/stalk/threaten/sell goods to .. me/you/whoever, so they should be liable, right? , that must be why so many people sue BT for aiding and abeting stalkers and heavy breathers, oh! hang on, they don`t , guess that blows that theory out of the water.
if kazaa thought they where on shaky ground the website would be closed as of right now, they ain`t, it isn`t, pretty plain, kazaa is legal, just like Stanley knives and Crossbows, both of them are pretty lethal, but it`s accepted that both are intended for uses other than what a small percentage of the population put them too, you can swap files by E-mail, should we ban that too?, how about postal services?, I can send plenty of CD`s by post for a couple of quid, (faster than downloading as well if you`re on 56k), seems the argument is not what Kazaa does, but what the users do with Kazaa, (I don`t have Kazaa anyway ), and just how do you legislate that people have morals/common sense? (on both sides of the divide).

Mentor.

abloke
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Posted: 26th Jun 2003 20:59
So what's your point? :-s
Well that's another one,Lol.

Any more?

Mentor,in England and the US both Stanley knives and Crossbows
are illigal to own.I hear its legal in France,however you only allowed to own a stanley knife if your a female and are older than 36,in france.

[quote]
you can swap files by E-mail, should we ban that too?

Yes i think we should.I get a lot of e-mail that annoys me.

[quote]
and just how do you legislate that people have morals/common sense?

I think people that wear glasses have better morals than people that don't,while people with red hair generally have more sense that's common.

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